I mean, it's obvious that there is double standards when it comes to men and women regarding nudity. You can show pretty much anything on a guy as long as it's not his man bits.
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Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Downloadable Contents Discussion Thread 7 | King of Fighters: Dream Match Never Ends - (ERA, ARE YOU OKAY!?)
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
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AN ARGUMENT IN FAVOR OF JILL VALENTINE IN SUPER SMASH BROS. ULTIMATE
Upon some thinking & discussing with IntelliHeath, I've decided to make this a series of posts in this thread as a way to truly contribute to the discussion. If you want to see the previous AN ARGUMENT IN FAVOR OF... post, here's the one for Chun-Li. With that said, let's get down to business.
WHO IS JILL VALENTINE?
Making her debut in Resident Evil in 1996, Jill Valentine was one of two protagonists you could choose from (the other being fellow S.T.A.R.S. member Chris Redfield) to traverse the nightmares of Spencer's Mansion. After surviving that ordeal, Jill would go on to be the sole protagonist of Resident Evil 3 & became a recurring character in the series. Jill would go on to have a starring role in Resident Evil: Revelations as well as a major role in Resident Evil 5 in her brainwashed form for the main game & her normal B.S.A.A. (the anti-bioterrorism task force formed after the fall of Umbrella) self in the DLC prologue story. She's considered as one of the three main protagonists of the series, right up there with fellow series mainstays Leon S. Kennedy & Chris Redfield. Likewise, Jill has a number of crossover appearances under her belt, which I'll get to in the next section.
WHY JILL VALENTINE?
There really isn't much to debate with regards to Resident Evil getting representation in Smash. Resident Evil is Capcom's biggest franchise that helped define survival horror as we know it today & is still going strong now. To be honest, the fact that we've yet to get any form of Resident Evil representation in Smash is a bit surprising. The real question that has gripped Smash speculation around here is why Jill should be the Resident Evil representative over Chris Redfield & Leon S. Kennedy. On paper, both of her fellow protagonists have more appearances under their belts. And in the case of Leon, he has more significant ties to Nintendo. However, it should be noted that, like Chris, Jill is one of the original protagonists of the franchise. Likewise, Jill seems to get preferential treatment when it comes to crossovers. She was...
- The first RE character to show up in the Versus series (that being Marvel vs. Capcom 2)
- The first RE protagonist to get in Teppen
- The only RE protagonist with a costume based on them in Street Fighter V
- The main RE rep in Street Fighter X All Capcom (a mobile game)
- The only RE rep on the cover of Project X Zone
- Yes, Chris was also in the game
- Leon would go on to be on the cover of Project X Zone 2
- One of four RE characters in the now-cancelled Capcom Super League Online
- The other three being Chris, Claire, & Wesker
HOW WOULD JILL PLAY?
This isn't Jill's first time in the world of fighting games, as mentioned earlier. But if she were to get in Smash, I'd imagine that Sakurai would stay more true to Resident Evil's roots & mechanics when drafting Jill's moveset. One of the main things that helped the franchise become what it is today is inventory management, which would play a role in Jill's moveset. Speaking of which, let's get to it. There's not much to talk about regarding her normals, as they would mostly cover military-grade hand-to-hand combat (which would make sense considering that she's a mainstay member of a UN-sanctioned anti-bioterrorism task force). You could even throw in Jill's Survival Knife from RE1 for her Smash attacks, or even the Stun Gun from RE1 as a side smash. Regarding realistic firearms, they'd be used sparingly for her tilts (Ex: her SIGPRO SP2009 is used for her side tilt, which can let her move forward) & in a cartoony manner, not unlike Joker. Likewise, Jill can use her flamethrower as her up smash, but it uses up a special kind of ammo. But with that said, the guns use up the same pool of ammo. As for her other moves...
- SPECIALS
- Normal B: Flash Grenade
- This will temporarily stun your opponents so you can follow up with another attack. As with other stuns, you can shake out of it the same way you can shake out of other stuns. You only get to use 5 of these before you have to refill.
- Side B: Charging S.T.A.R.S.
- A forward-charging shoulder tackle with some super armor at the start. I thought I should at least borrow something from MvC2, & this made the most sense given that Jill would have a special move that she wouldn't have to worry about resources for. You can do Up B after performing this move in the air, which helps with Jill's horizontal recovery.
- Up B: Hookshot
- This is a grapple recovery, not unlike Joker's. Obviously this doesn't provide too much in the name of horizontal recovery, but it really helps in a pinch when it comes to vertical recovery. Though fortunately for Jill, she's more-or-less covered for horizontal movement thanks to her Side B. Like said Side B, the hookshot doesn't require any ammo.
- Down B: Genesis Scan
- I believe this one requires some context for those who didn't play Resident Evil Revelations. In case you don't know, Revelations gives you the Genesis (an item that's issued out to B.S.A.A. soldiers), which allows you to scan your opponents as well as your environments. In the case of the former, you get an herb if you get the Genesis' percentage up to 100%, which can be done faster if you scan said enemy up-close. The same would apply to the Genesis in Smash, except this will be the main way of replenishing ammo. If you scan your opponent within a set distance (it'll be highlighted in green once you use the Genesis), you'll get more ammo for whatever gun is low on it. The closer you are, the more ammo you'll obtain. Once you're filled up on ammo, you'll recover some health if you use it again (like with ammo, the closer you are, the more you'll heal). Don't try to use it too rapidly, otherwise you'll see a drop-off in the amount of ammo or health you get until it's 0, so let it cool down for a couple of seconds before using it again.
- Final Smash: M66 Rocket Launcher
- Jill busts out the big guns in this Final Smash. But as in RE3, you only have 4 shots. So while they'll pack one hell of a punch, be sure to make them count. You won't get another shot until you get your Final Smash again.
- UNIQUE MECHANIC
- Resource Management
- How it works is that each of the three stars in the S.T.A.R.S symbol represents a certain type of ammo (Guns, Grenades, & Flamethrower Fluid). The yellow of each star will deplete as you use these weapon types until it becomes a very dark yellow. Since guns are all-encompassing for her tilts, that star will deplete slower than the other stars. You can refill your resources by using the Genesis.
WHAT WOULD BE JILL'S STAGE
Kind of obvious, don't you think? Jill's stage would be Spencer's Mansion from Resident Evil 1. The only change would be that the roof has been destroyed. Obviously this stage wouldn't be tournament-legal to begin with, but you can have zombies show up from any of the doors found in the main hall. Likewise, the upper floor edge can be an additional pair of platforms.
WHAT MUSIC WOULD JILL BRING WITH HER?
Resident Evil is no Street Fighter when it comes to music, but it does have a somewhat-respectable assortment of tunes. Keep in mind that most of them would likely need to be remixed to fit the tone of Smash.
- Final Battle [Resident Evil 1 Remake]
- Nemesis' Theme [Resident Evil 3: Nemesis]
- I'd borrow elements of the UMvC3 version for a remix of this, which would probably be required.
- Sad But True [Resident Evil 5]
- This may need a remix
- Ada's Theme [Resident Evil 2 Remake]
- This would also likely need a remix.
WHAT SPIRITS WOULD BE INCLUDED WITH JILL?
Unlike with music, there's a pretty big assortment of characters to draw upon for Jill's spirits. This is probably the easiest part of creating the post (aside from avoiding anything too grotesque), so here goes...
- Jill Valentine (Resident Evil 1)
- Fighter Spirit
- Jill Valentine (Resident Evil 3)
- Fighter Spirit
- I'd prefer her B.S.A.A. design from RE5, but I'd imagine that Sakurai & Capcom would go for 1 & 3.
- Chris Redfield (Resident Evil 1)
- Chris Redfield (Resident Evil 5)
- Evolves from RE1 Chris
- Leon S. Kennedy (Resident Evil 2 Remake)
- Leon S Kennedy (Resident Evil 4)
- Evolves from RE2R Leon
- Claire Redfield (Resident Evil 2 Remake)
- Claire Redifled (Resident Evil Revelations 2)
- Evolves from RE2R Claire
- Ada Wong [Disguised] (Resident Evil 2 Remake)
- Ada Wong [Dress] (Resident Evil 2 Remake)
- Evolves from Disguised Ada
- Albert Wesker (Resident Evil 5)
- Nemesis
- Mr. X
- Jack Baker
LONG STORY SHORT
As mentioned earlier, Resident Evil is long overdue for playable representation in Smash. And considering the aforementioned lack of women on the roster, Jill would be the perfect candidate to be said rep. She has the weapons, skills, & tactical thinking necessary to survive the horrors of the other Smash combatants. Likewise, she'd be yet another iconic character to join the pantheon of characters already in the game. Plus it helps that Jill was one of the original protagonists of the series. Long story short, Jill would be a slam dunk inclusion in every regard.
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Because RE4 is the only Resident Evil game I care about. Had a lot of fun with that as a kid.
I just can't see some characters being picked after Sakurai blatantly picked a lot of his favorites for FP.
And if next DLC wave would focus on something else, it would either be marketing or fan favorites, which would shutdown different set of characters.
And if next DLC wave would focus on something else, it would either be marketing or fan favorites, which would shutdown different set of characters.
For me it's because he has a stronger history with Nintendo. The first Resident Evil on a Nintendo console was RE2 on the n64 and RE4 on the GameCube was huge at the time before Capcom ported so many times.
Honestly, as Sabi and Verge continue to shoot down possibilities for Fighter 5 (whether or not you believe they're legit or not), I've come back around to Jill being a very strong candidate for that slot.
RE3make being announced at the VGAs followed by a Jill in Smash announcement makes a lot of sense to me imo. Would make sense to announce 3make there too as RE2make is likely going to be scooping up a few awards. Fingers crossed.
RE3make being announced at the VGAs followed by a Jill in Smash announcement makes a lot of sense to me imo. Would make sense to announce 3make there too as RE2make is likely going to be scooping up a few awards. Fingers crossed.
I should make a case for Sol Badguy, Arle and Travis Touchdown post.
Then BGBW can do a post for Haruka.
I don't think Nintendo are operating from the assumption of a game that will be announced. They're probably more concerned about what's happening now, and just like Lloyd is commonly argued to be the go-to Tales Of rep because he was the protag of the most Nintendo adjacent game, Leon feels like he'd be the easiest bet because of the same argument, which is on top of him being the most recently active character in the series, and what's arguably the RE series' most iconic/beloved protagonist.
Then BGBW can do a post for Haruka.
I don't think Nintendo are operating from the assumption of a game that will be announced. They're probably more concerned about what's happening now, and just like Lloyd is commonly argued to be the go-to Tales Of rep because he was the protag of the most Nintendo adjacent game, Leon feels like he'd be the easiest bet because of the same argument, which is on top of him being the most recently active character in the series, and what's arguably the RE series' most iconic/beloved protagonist.
I was actually gonna do Arle (& Lara Croft) at some point. But if you want to do her in my stead, have at it.
Makes sense.
Also makes sense.
I don't really have that time on me tbh so you go for it if you like.
I still don't see Jill getting in over Chris or Leon. No one has made a compelling argument as to why she would be the top RE choice and it's mostly based on wishful thinking. REmake 3 is unlikely coming to Switch so she is not gonna be in for advertising purposes. The only way I see her getting in is with Chris as echo or skin.
We're gonna get rebecca chambers because resident evil 0 is chronologically the earliest mainline game (probably) and it's the original Nintendo exclusive resi (i think)
The STARS align.
(If the ice climber testing tag team character rumour from earlier had lasted for more than 5 mins, I could go all in on a team up duo character with everyone's fave billy)
The STARS align.
(If the ice climber testing tag team character rumour from earlier had lasted for more than 5 mins, I could go all in on a team up duo character with everyone's fave billy)
Probably because Bayonetta is actually in the game.
Along with Palutena, who I'm tempted to call Sakurai's analogous answer to the way Kamiya sees Bayonetta.
I still have this hunch we are getting Dante as the final charcter. Call it right now considering he hasn't been disconfirmed by any leakers plus DMC5 will likely get awards at the VGAs
Isn't Hero the only true promotional character with DQ11? Terry's games have been out for a while for Switch haven't they.
I wouldn't bet on marketing that much.
I wouldn't bet on marketing that much.
Maybe the only character I care about less than Bayonetta.
Isn't Bayonetta like, really classy in general around normal people. Bayonetta when shes fighting is quite a different thing.
Billy eventually grew a beard and became the main character in Disaster: Day of Crisis, so he works on multiple levels
I would argue outside of Ryu and Mega Man, Dante is the most iconic Capcom Charcter with Pheonix Wright coming in 4th Place. Dante would make so much sense in Smas
People always bring up how RE4 was the big GC exclusive that's why Leon should be in. Yet the game got ported everywhere in a year.
Meanwhile REmake was Nintendo exclusive for 12 years.
Resident Evil 1 also got Game Boy version and a DS version.
Meanwhile REmake was Nintendo exclusive for 12 years.
Resident Evil 1 also got Game Boy version and a DS version.
I'm not saying they'd be operating from that assumption, I'm saying that when the DLC cast was being decided, when Sakurai went to Capcom for a character they shared some of what they had coming up with him. We know this happens and that it affects Smash stuff thanks to Joker having his P5R grappling hook.
So imagine Sakurai goes to Capcom looking for a RE character. Capcom shows him their upcoming plans for the franchise, which at the time would have included the soon-to-be released RE2make and some early RE3make. RE2make is too soon to pair with a promotional character, but RE3make, which he has plenty of time to plan around, would work great as an end-of-pass tie in. I think the timing works much better in that case.
Just as Joker ended up being well-timed for the announcement/advertisement of P5R and Hero provided for ample opportunities to advertise for the upcoming Dragon Quest 11S: Echoes of an Elusive Age Definitive Edition for Nintendo Switch, a promotional addition to excite people for RE3make makes a lot more sense to me than a character from a game that no longer needs the promotional push. Yes, Banjo and Terry didn't advertise anything, but those are significantly less active franchises to begin with. For an active franchise like RE, especially one going through a renaissance like it has been, I think a promotional character for a future game Capcom wants as much advertising as possible for makes a lot more sense than a character from a game that doesn't benefit any from a promotional push at this point.
Honestly Phoenix Wright somewhat doesn't work with me. He is joke character in MVC3, so he obviously can work… but at the same time that would be reusing someone else's joke. So I dunno...
The thing is, would Sakurai pick Resident Evil,Devil May Cry,Monster Hunter or Pheonix Wright?
well Twin Snakes has never been ported so Snake's more gamecube than anyone
(also the Game Boy version of Resident Evil never happened)
can't unsee this deepest lore
Wright is one of my absolute fave game characters but I can't muster much excitement for him in smash.
while I used him in umvc3, I never really felt his moveset was all that enjoyable, the general gist of it felt too slow and random for a super fast paced touch of death game like marvel.
so I think he'd fit more in smash playstyle, but for all I just said about his marvel vs capcom moveset, there's no doubt it conceptually fit like a glove, accidental attacks, evidence gathering, the turnabout mode.
Due to the AA series non combat nature I just can't help feel sakurai would have to step on the toes of what we've already seen, minus the fancy esoteric screen filling supers like giant gavels and such outside the final smash.
I'd still be hyped to see him mind you.
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Leon is the Cloud Strife of RE but Jill is the honorable, truthful pick.
We need more female characters and Jill is up there in like the top 3 of most iconic female protagonists in gaming.
She is also due for a resurgence within her own series.
We need more female characters and Jill is up there in like the top 3 of most iconic female protagonists in gaming.
She is also due for a resurgence within her own series.
For a Capcom rep, I'd say an RE or MH rep would probably be better than Dante just for their connection to Nintendo, even if the series have jumped ship from time to time. Either a RE, MH, or DMC reveal though would work well for a TGA reveal. I doubt think any Namco character would bring about as much buzz, but that's just my opinion, and Sakurai could drop a Dig Dug reveal trailer for TGA for all I know.
You realize that by Sakurai logic there's a much larger chance of him choosing Chris right? We can argue what's "right" all we want but past experience doesn't exactly speak highly of Jill's chances.
It's hard to argue against, respectively, lightning in a bottle perfection and the game that put the JRPG on the map for a good ten years
I admit i would love Dante in Smash but if we get Chris,Jill and Leon in the game as playable fighters (via alternate costumes) that would be sooo goood
Well, If it makes you feel better. FFVII is my third favorite in seires. I much prefer FFIV and FFII.
Tho I still think Cloud is the correct choice for a smash character.
Joker's grappling hook was an element that's within Persona 5's menus. I think it's highly unlikely that some stray short cutscenes in Persona 5 Royal is where he got that move from, when more than likely it's just a testament to Sakurai's attentiveness and appreciation for Persona 5's visual details, which he's written an entire article about before. Other than that there's nothing about Joker that seems informed by P5R; no stage elements, no music, nothing. The only evidence that P5R may have influenced Joker to some extent is the mystery regarding the "Jane" datamine, and even then we'll never know what that is unless they get around to adding it or addressing it.
Hero is more serendipitous timing than anything else. Dragon Quest XI had already been out for over a year, so if you're having a character with multiple alternates then it stands to reason that one of them is likely going to be from the most recent game in the series. Even the choice to have Luminary as the default comes across more as a marketing decision because the trailer makes almost just as much of a deal about Erdrick, who takes the front and center of the big "whoah alt costumes" reveal, and has the final game play shot. They could easily have made that trailer with Erdrick at the forefront, and most people expected that because he's still the most known iteration of the character.
Really, if you're going by the way Dragon Quest did it, then the best analogue would've been having Chris in the game with Jill as an alternate costume or echo.
AN ARGUMENT IN FAVOR OF JILL VALENTINE IN SUPER SMASH BROS. ULTIMATEUpon some thinking & discussing with IntelliHeath, I've decided to make this a series of posts in this thread as a way to truly contribute to the discussion. If you want to see the previous AN ARGUMENT IN FAVOR OF... post, here's the one for Chun-Li. With that said, let's get down to business.
WHO IS JILL VALENTINE?Making her debut in Resident Evil in 1996, Jill Valentine was one of two protagonists you could choose from (the other being fellow S.T.A.R.S. member Chris Redfield) to traverse the nightmares of Spencer's Mansion. After surviving that ordeal, Jill would go on to be the sole protagonist of Resident Evil 3 & became a recurring character in the series. Jill would go on to have a starring role in Resident Evil: Revelations as well as a major role in Resident Evil 5 in her brainwashed form for the main game & her normal B.S.A.A. (the anti-bioterrorism task force formed after the fall of Umbrella) self in the DLC prologue story. She's considered as one of the three main protagonists of the series, right up there with fellow series mainstays Leon S. Kennedy & Chris Redfield. Likewise, Jill has a number of crossover appearances under her belt, which I'll get to in the next section.
WHY JILL VALENTINE?There really isn't much to debate with regards to Resident Evil getting representation in Smash. Resident Evil is Capcom's biggest franchise that helped define survival horror as we know it today & is still going strong now. To be honest, the fact that we've yet to get any form of Resident Evil representation in Smash is a bit surprising. The real question that has gripped Smash speculation around here is why Jill should be the Resident Evil representative over Chris Redfield & Leon S. Kennedy. On paper, both of her fellow protagonists have more appearances under their belts. And in the case of Leon, he has more significant ties to Nintendo. However, it should be noted that, like Chris, Jill is one of the original protagonists of the franchise. Likewise, Jill seems to get preferential treatment when it comes to crossovers. She was...
Likewise, with Resident Evil 3's remake being one of the worst-kept secrets of the industry right now, Capcom would have reason to prioritize her if Sakurai comes knocking for a Resident Evil character. Though at the end of the day, it comes down to what Sakurai wants. And given everything that's been stated, on top of Smash Ultimate's dire need for more characters who are primarily women, Jill stands a pretty damn good chance of being chosen.
HOW WOULD JILL PLAY?This isn't Jill's first time in the world of fighting games, as mentioned earlier. But if she were to get in Smash, I'd imagine that Sakurai would stay more true to Resident Evil's roots & mechanics when drafting Jill's moveset. One of the main things that helped the franchise become what it is today is inventory management, which would play a role in Jill's moveset. Speaking of which, let's get to it. There's not much to talk about regarding her normals, as they would mostly cover military-grade hand-to-hand combat (which would make sense considering that she's a mainstay member of a UN-sanctioned anti-bioterrorism task force). You could even throw in Jill's Survival Knife from RE1 for her Smash attacks, or even the Stun Gun from RE1 as a side smash. Regarding realistic firearms, they'd be used sparingly for her tilts (Ex: her SIGPRO SP2009 is used for her side tilt, which can let her move forward) & in a cartoony manner, not unlike Joker. Likewise, Jill can use her flamethrower as her up smash, but it uses up a special kind of ammo. But with that said, the guns use up the same pool of ammo. As for her other moves...
WHAT WOULD BE JILL'S STAGEKind of obvious, don't you think? Jill's stage would be Spencer's Mansion from Resident Evil 1. The only change would be that the roof has been destroyed. Obviously this stage wouldn't be tournament-legal to begin with, but you can have zombies show up from any of the doors found in the main hall. Likewise, the upper floor edge can be an additional pair of platforms.
WHAT MUSIC WOULD JILL BRING WITH HER?Resident Evil is no Street Fighter when it comes to music, but it does have a somewhat-respectable assortment of tunes. Keep in mind that most of them would likely need to be remixed to fit the tone of Smash.
I did my best to pick from each of the numbered entries in some form. Perhaps Sakurai could get more creative with what he remixes, but that's tougher to predict.
- Final Battle [Resident Evil 1 Remake]
- Nemesis' Theme [Resident Evil 3: Nemesis]
- Sad But True [Resident Evil 5]
- Ada's Theme [Resident Evil 2 Remake]
WHAT SPIRITS WOULD BE INCLUDED WITH JILL?Unlike with music, there's a pretty big assortment of characters to draw upon for Jill's spirits. This is probably the easiest part of creating the post (aside from avoiding anything too grotesque), so here goes...
LONG STORY SHORTAs mentioned earlier, Resident Evil is long overdue for playable representation in Smash. And considering the aforementioned lack of women on the roster, Jill would be the perfect candidate to be said rep. She has the weapons, skills, & tactical thinking necessary to survive the horrors of the other Smash combatants. Likewise, she'd be yet another iconic character to join the pantheon of characters already in the game. Plus it helps that Jill was one of the original protagonists of the series. Long story short, Jill would be a slam dunk inclusion in every regard.
Now here's a choice I can actually get behind.
I definitely still think Resident Evil and Tekken are the most deserving of any major Japanese gaming IP to be in Smash Bros.
I'd like to see both Jill and Chris together in the same slot, Hero style.
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