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Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Downloadable Contents Discussion Thread | The Wild Ride is still on!

Oct 27, 2017
8,777
Erdrick wouldn't directly advertise XI S; it's more about Dragon Quest being one of the most prolific third-party series in Nintendo history. Nintendo loves DQ, and they're the ones picking the characters.
How many times does it need to be said that Nintendo gave Sakurai a list of options and aren't just picking whoever they feel like over his decision-making?
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,028
How many times does it need to be said that Nintendo gave Sakurai a list of options and aren't just picking whoever they feel like over his decision-making?
Is there a more in-depth translation somewhere? Like, I'm not highly invested in this one way or another, but the way I read it was that basically Nintendo DID dictate their character preferences and Sakurai's role was to respond whether or not he could make it work. I.e., he had a sort of veto power to refuse a character, but still the characters were being selected by Nintendo:

https://www.polygon.com/2018/11/7/18071684/super-smash-bros-ultimate-dlc-fighters-lineup-confirmed

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate’s DLC line-up is now complete,” Sakurai said on his Twitter account — a rare instance of the game designer tweeting in English. “This time the selection was made entirely by Nintendo. I decide if we can create a fighter based on their selection, then come up with the plan.”
We might just be splitting hairs here, but I'm just saying it doesn't really feel like Sakurai was given a large list or anything from which to still curate the lineup in as much as he simply had the power to go "no, I don't think this character would work very well in Smash. Next."
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,606
I could've sworn there was something that was said more recently that puts more implications on all the 5 being Nintendo's picks rather than a selection that Sakurai could've chosen.

It's especially hard to say with Joker alone as I have no doubts that Sakurai probably would've went with him if he had the opportunity considering he seems to really like that game alot.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,907
The way Sakurai worded his tweet made it pretty clear that Nintendo already had specific characters in mind negotiated and ready to develop, and that they just asked Sakurai if he could make it happen (presumably allowing him some veto power or a second opinion if one of them wouldn't be feasible). Basically I reckon Nintendo had a few backup options in mind if one or two characters wouldn't work out, but most likely a majority of the picks were ones they had already settled on. It's best to assume right now that the five characters are Nintendo's firsthand options presented to Sakurai.
 
OP
OP
IntelliHeath
Oct 25, 2017
6,268
What if the statement by Sakurai is just PR to get people off his back?

Edited: not saying that I doubt him but just wonder if that’s in case.

Dragon Quest’s Erdrick and Joker would seems to be the choices Sakurai would make.
 

Neoxon

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,337
Houston, TX
I could've sworn there was something that was said more recently that puts more implications on all the 5 being Nintendo's picks rather than a selection that Sakurai could've chosen.

It's especially hard to say with Joker alone as I have no doubts that Sakurai probably would've went with him if he had the opportunity considering he seems to really like that game alot.
The implication of the tweet most likely goes like this.
  • Nintendo picks the characters
  • Sakurai says if he can feasibly make those characters
  • If they can’t be done, Nintendo picks someone else
Rinse & repeat until the Fighters Pass is finalized.


What if the statement by Sakurai is just PR to get people off his back?
He would have just said “The DLC characters have already been finalized” if that were the case.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,028
He would have just said “The DLC characters have already been finalized” if that were the case.
I need to note right up front that I'm not invested in suggesting that I can read Sakurai's mind or anything. But just to play along with IntelliHeath's (probably not all that serious) suggestion, this wouldn't really get obnoxious people off his back that might get on his case about how Joker sucks and he should have picked Waluigi, and also his house should be burnt to the ground. But "it was Nintendo's call, not mine" does make him less culpable.
 

Neoxon

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,337
Houston, TX
I need to note right up front that I'm not invested in suggesting that I can read Sakurai's mind or anything. But just to play along with IntelliHeath's (probably not all that serious) suggestion, this wouldn't really get obnoxious people off his back that might get on his case about how Joker sucks and he should have picked Waluigi, and also his house should be burnt to the ground. But "it was Nintendo's call, not mine" does make him less culpable.
I mean, those people are gonna be annoying no matter what. You’d think that the Assist Trophy would make things clear to Waluigi fans.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,028
I mean, those people are gonna be annoying no matter what. You’d think that the Assist Trophy would make things clear to Waluigi fans.
Well, obnoxious Waluigi fans were just one example. But yes, I agree that annoying people are going to continue to be annoying by definition. Still, it might mitigate SOME of the hate mail he would get.

However, I'd tend to believe that he's being sincere. I doubt he'd publicly lie about his role in the DLC selection process just to avoid some annoying hate mail.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,606
I don't think Sakurai gives a damn about what people think or say to the point that he points fingers at Nintendo for the DLC selection.

If that's the case he would've saddled Plant on Nintendo but he took that pick in stride and even justifies it by saying that everyone knows who Piranha Plant is. If he can take responsibility for PP but be ashamed of the DLC picks then that would be super unflattering for the DLC
 
Jan 8, 2019
24
I assume his tweet from Nov 7th was translated professionally, but I can tell you what I read from the Japanese. I'll try to make this as literal and clear as possible.

『スマブラSP』ではDLCを作りますが、その内訳はすでに確定しています。
DLC will be made for Smash Ultimate. The content has already been decided on.

今回は任天堂が全てラインナップを決めてきており、
This time, Nintendo made the decisions regarding the entire line-up,

私はそれを作れるかどうかを判断し、企画しています。
And I decided on whether or not the character(s) can be made, and also do the planning.

It's pretty much the same thing as what's been posted in English. There's no way to know the process from this. They could've showed him a list, they could have presented the characters one by one. It could have been any number of things.

Personally, I think from the wording, Sakurai's decision making came down to telling them if he could make a character. I don't think they wanted to know if he personally wanted the character in the game. Kind of like "Sakurai, we want Joker. Can you make a character out of him?" If yes, they went with him. If no, they moved on. I think the word "selection" is making people think Nintendo gave him more of a choice.

The implication of the tweet most likely goes like this.
  • Nintendo picks the characters
  • Sakurai says if he can feasibly make those characters
  • If they can’t be done, Nintendo picks someone else
Rinse & repeat until the Fighters Pass is finalized.
So basically this.

Edit: Now that I think about it, the Japanese is even more vague than the English lol definitely not getting more information out of that.
 
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Neoxon

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,337
Houston, TX
Well, obnoxious Waluigi fans were just one example. But yes, I agree that annoying people are going to continue to be annoying by definition. Still, it might mitigate SOME of the hate mail he would get.

However, I'd tend to believe that he's being sincere. I doubt he'd publicly lie about his role in the DLC selection process just to avoid some annoying hate mail.
Yeah, Sakurai may change his mind, but he isn’t one to outright lie in scenarios like this.
 
Oct 25, 2017
690
Michigan
As far as talking about using the DLC fighters for promotional purposes, I feel like there are two different approaches that people can be taking, and Joker on his own so far doesn't really do enough to sway evidence one way or the other. Either:
1. Nintendo wants to leverage the already-wide appeal of Smash to try and get people interested in other characters and the games they're from.
2. Nintendo wants to leverage the "crossover" nature of Smash to introduce characters and game series that usually appeal to different audiences, in a bid to get those people to buy into Smash who might not have otherwise.

The likely answer is a combination of both but I think it's sort of the main lens that can frame the Erdrick vs. Sora debate. Erdrick speaks more to the former and trying to directly sell Dragon Quest, while Sora's more of the latter as a "bigger" announcement and one that would likely drive more discussion and higher individual character sales. In Joker's case, we don't even yet know if there really is a P5 Switch port or not, even if heavily assumed, but it's easy to see how pulling in a property like Persona might rope in some players that weren't necessarily looking into Smash that strongly otherwise. If the second official reveal can be traced back to one strategy or the other more clearly, then I think trying to predict the other three becomes both easier and more interesting.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,621
You also don't need to limit a character inclusion to being about a specific franchise

Joker can easily just be an Atlus rep, securing more Atlus business from them and SEGA for the Switch. Or just a symbol of their relationship. Could P5 come to Switch sure. But I doubt the reason really begins and ends there.

Same with Erdrick or any other SE rep. Sure DQ deserves it and gets promotion, but working out more business with SE in the long run is worth it

Which is why I think Western characters are more likely than before as beyond specific games, getting support overall is more important

I may be thinking too much into it tho
 
Jan 31, 2018
41
As far as talking about using the DLC fighters for promotional purposes, I feel like there are two different approaches that people can be taking, and Joker on his own so far doesn't really do enough to sway evidence one way or the other. Either:
1. Nintendo wants to leverage the already-wide appeal of Smash to try and get people interested in other characters and the games they're from.
2. Nintendo wants to leverage the "crossover" nature of Smash to introduce characters and game series that usually appeal to different audiences, in a bid to get those people to buy into Smash who might not have otherwise.

The likely answer is a combination of both but I think it's sort of the main lens that can frame the Erdrick vs. Sora debate. Erdrick speaks more to the former and trying to directly sell Dragon Quest, while Sora's more of the latter as a "bigger" announcement and one that would likely drive more discussion and higher individual character sales. In Joker's case, we don't even yet know if there really is a P5 Switch port or not, even if heavily assumed, but it's easy to see how pulling in a property like Persona might rope in some players that weren't necessarily looking into Smash that strongly otherwise. If the second official reveal can be traced back to one strategy or the other more clearly, then I think trying to predict the other three becomes both easier and more interesting.
It's exactly this and it has been the same for Cloud. While Cloud didn't promote any Final Fantasy on Nintendo platforms the character is just THAT popular that everyone is going to get hyped. Sora definitely has a shot. We just recently got Final Fantasy on the Switch. Chances are high that we get Kingdom Hearts as well. May it be ports or whatever.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,329
So now Brave might mean Sora?

I know Sora has a Brave Form in KH2, but isn’t that a bit more of a stretch then DQ?

Anyways. It’s gonna be interesting to see if future patch leaves more details.
 

Neoxon

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,337
Houston, TX
It's exactly this and it has been the same for Cloud. While Cloud didn't promote any Final Fantasy on Nintendo platforms the character is just THAT popular that everyone is going to get hyped. Sora definitely has a shot. We just recently got Final Fantasy on the Switch. Chances are high that we get Kingdom Hearts as well. May it be ports or whatever.
The difference here is that Cloud was chosen by Sakurai, whereas every DLC character for Smash Ultimate (besides Piranha Plant) was chosen by Nintendo.
 
OP
OP
IntelliHeath
Oct 25, 2017
6,268
As far as talking about using the DLC fighters for promotional purposes, I feel like there are two different approaches that people can be taking, and Joker on his own so far doesn't really do enough to sway evidence one way or the other. Either:
1. Nintendo wants to leverage the already-wide appeal of Smash to try and get people interested in other characters and the games they're from.
2. Nintendo wants to leverage the "crossover" nature of Smash to introduce characters and game series that usually appeal to different audiences, in a bid to get those people to buy into Smash who might not have otherwise.

The likely answer is a combination of both but I think it's sort of the main lens that can frame the Erdrick vs. Sora debate. Erdrick speaks more to the former and trying to directly sell Dragon Quest, while Sora's more of the latter as a "bigger" announcement and one that would likely drive more discussion and higher individual character sales. In Joker's case, we don't even yet know if there really is a P5 Switch port or not, even if heavily assumed, but it's easy to see how pulling in a property like Persona might rope in some players that weren't necessarily looking into Smash that strongly otherwise. If the second official reveal can be traced back to one strategy or the other more clearly, then I think trying to predict the other three becomes both easier and more interesting.

Yup, definitely this. And strengthening thier relationships with third party companies. Also they more likely wants to market more Nintendo contents to different fanbases which would raise the sales for the games in general like what happened with Bayonetta.

Even Nintendo made their selection this time but the choices (if it’s correct for 2nd) they made felt so Sakurai-ish.

We already know that Sakurai really like Persona franchise and praised P5. Also it’s the inspiration for Smash menu.

Also Dragon Quest (if people assume correctly) is one of very few historical third party franchise that doesn’t have any presence in Smash
 
Mar 10, 2018
814
Scotland
We might get some really disappointing fighters if it's restricted to upcoming third party titles they wanna promote. If the third party fighters don't come with any sense of magnitude or acclaim then its just gonna feel like I'm paying for a promo. (Yes, admittedly a fun one)

Also means I should just give up on Tails now.
 

Neoxon

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,337
Houston, TX
We might get some really disappointing fighters if it's restricted to upcoming third party titles they wanna promote.

Means I should just give up on Tails now.
While Team Sonic Racing is a thing, Tails honestly feels like a base roster pick. But because of TSR, Tails may still have a chance (albeit a small one), so don’t give up hope.
 
Oct 27, 2017
11,351
You also don't need to limit a character inclusion to being about a specific franchise

Joker can easily just be an Atlus rep, securing more Atlus business from them and SEGA for the Switch. Or just a symbol of their relationship. Could P5 come to Switch sure. But I doubt the reason really begins and ends there.

Same with Erdrick or any other SE rep. Sure DQ deserves it and gets promotion, but working out more business with SE in the long run is worth it

Which is why I think Western characters are more likely than before as beyond specific games, getting support overall is more important

I may be thinking too much into it tho
I definitely think there is something to this line of thought.
 
Oct 27, 2017
8,777
I don't think that an MK rep is likely at all, but I don't even think Doom Guy is realistic. I can't see Nintendo rewarding Bethesda with a Smash character just because they've published a few Switch games.
 
Mar 10, 2018
814
Scotland
While Team Sonic Racing is a thing, Tails honestly feels like a base roster pick. But because of TSR, Tails may still have a chance (albeit a small one), so don’t give up hope.
Yeah I hear you. Considering the sonic racing titles though, I'll forgive all wrongdoing if they sidestepped Tails and went straight for the playable Danica Patrick
 
Mar 10, 2018
814
Scotland
I don't think that an MK rep is likely at all, but I don't even think Doom Guy is realistic. I can't see Nintendo rewarding Bethesda with a Smash character just because they've published a few Switch games.
I love the idea of a Doom rep, it's less about the fighter and more about the stage though. They could create an absolutely grisly monstrosity of tangled flesh and I would be all over it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
690
Michigan
We might get some really disappointing fighters if it's restricted to upcoming third party titles they wanna promote. If the third party fighters don't come with any sense of magnitude or acclaim then its just gonna feel like I'm paying for a promo. (Yes, admittedly a fun one)

Also means I should just give up on Tails now.
Frankly even if having an upcoming game doesn't have any impact on character selection, I wouldn't be expecting Tails to potentially be one of the five fighter's pass characters anyway. I think he'd be fun to have in the game, don't get me wrong, but as an announcement Tails wouldn't land a very big impact compared to other choices, especially characters whose franchises aren't already in Smash.
If we take the Joker reveal and Reggie's comments at the Game Awards as an indication of the "flavor" of their DLC picks as had been said, then it seems like they're expecting these reveals to be both surprising and to generate some waves. No one saw Joker coming. To people not digging into rumors and data-mine hinting, that seems to be what they're looking for.

Incidentally this is also why I've been curious to see plenty of folks still guessing at Byleth or some other Three Houses rep being one of the five. A new Fire Emblem character in a game that already has a bunch of them would not be a surprising or terribly hype-inducing reveal, and wouldn't be likely to draw any new FE blood to Smash that wasn't already in. That would be a move purely trying to market Three Houses, not something to grow interest in Smash as I alluded to before.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,907
So now Brave might mean Sora?

I know Sora has a Brave Form in KH2, but isn’t that a bit more of a stretch then DQ?
Not necessarily. "Brave" is already an extremely odd codename to utilize. Smash typically uses Japanese names as an identifier (hence Plant = Packun), "Jack" is presumably employed for Joker due to his association with Jack Frost (who is always named Jack Frost in every region). Meanwhile you would assume if Brave really is meant to refer to the DQ character, they'd use the name Yuusha for it. On the other hand, Valor Form literally is referred to as Brave Form in Japanese, as in using the actual English word for it, so much like Jack, it makes sense that they'd use an English word in that context. It's no less of a stretch to say it could be a reference to that, than it would be to say Joker = Jack being a reference to Jack Frost. Valor Form is also the first "form" Sora gets (and one of the more iconic ones due to dual wielding), so if you want to use a form as a codename, makes as much sense as any to use that one.

It's easy to assume Brave most likely refers to DQ (and presumably the character is DQ), but there is enough benefit of doubt that Brave could refer to literally anything else that has a vague association with the word. Brave equating to DQ just seems a little too easy, particularly when you consider Jack is a more obscure codename.
 
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Mar 10, 2018
814
Scotland
Frankly even if having an upcoming game doesn't have any impact on character selection, I wouldn't be expecting Tails to potentially be one of the five fighter's pass characters anyway. I think he'd be fun to have in the game, don't get me wrong, but as an announcement Tails wouldn't land a very big impact compared to other choices, especially characters whose franchises aren't already in Smash.
If we take the Joker reveal and Reggie's comments at the Game Awards as an indication of the "flavor" of their DLC picks as had been said, then it seems like they're expecting these reveals to be both surprising and to generate some waves. No one saw Joker coming. To people not digging into rumors and data-mine hinting, that seems to be what they're looking for.

Incidentally this is also why I've been curious to see plenty of folks still guessing at Byleth or some other Three Houses rep being one of the five. A new Fire Emblem character in a game that already has a bunch of them would not be a surprising or terribly hype-inducing reveal, and wouldn't be likely to draw any new FE blood to Smash that wasn't already in. That would be a move purely trying to market Three Houses, not something to grow interest in Smash as I alluded to before.
I didn't know we had a set number of five, cool. I have no reason to expect Tails, like the other poster said he seems like more of a base-game addition. Just want him, and the franchise seems due another rep.

I don't think we'll get any more Nintendo reps. I do hope they manage a couple of Western picks though. I hope it doesn't feel too much like marketing.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,340
Trailer opens on Aether Keeps. Sharena is sent flying back.
Sharena: What is this power?
Reveal Captain Diddy Kong.
Alfonse grunts in the background.
Sharena: For my brother.
Sharena charges. Diddy beats her up with fisticuffs.
Diddy charges up his signature Diddy Punch, but retreats when a magic blast nearly hits him.
Cloaked Figure hovers down.
Cloaked Figure: It's going to be alright.
Cloaked Figure: Psyche!
Alfonse and Sharena are blasted away by cloaked figure.
Cloaked Figure to Diddy: You will be mine.
Veronica Forms a Contract!
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,003
Frankly even if having an upcoming game doesn't have any impact on character selection, I wouldn't be expecting Tails to potentially be one of the five fighter's pass characters anyway. I think he'd be fun to have in the game, don't get me wrong, but as an announcement Tails wouldn't land a very big impact compared to other choices, especially characters whose franchises aren't already in Smash.
If we take the Joker reveal and Reggie's comments at the Game Awards as an indication of the "flavor" of their DLC picks as had been said, then it seems like they're expecting these reveals to be both surprising and to generate some waves. No one saw Joker coming. To people not digging into rumors and data-mine hinting, that seems to be what they're looking for.

Incidentally this is also why I've been curious to see plenty of folks still guessing at Byleth or some other Three Houses rep being one of the five. A new Fire Emblem character in a game that already has a bunch of them would not be a surprising or terribly hype-inducing reveal, and wouldn't be likely to draw any new FE blood to Smash that wasn't already in. That would be a move purely trying to market Three Houses, not something to grow interest in Smash as I alluded to before.
Let tails get a spot they got 4 other slots to WOW us.
 
But because of TSR, Tails may still have a chance (albeit a small one), so don’t give up hope.
I have no reason to expect Tails, like the other poster said he seems like more of a base-game addition. Just want him, and the franchise seems due another rep.
Let tails get a spot they got 4 other slots to WOW us.


Trailer opens on Aether Keeps. Sharena is sent flying back.
Sharena: What is this power?
Reveal Captain Diddy Kong.
Alfonse grunts in the background.
Sharena: For my brother.
Sharena charges. Diddy beats her up with fisticuffs.
Diddy charges up his signature Diddy Punch, but retreats when a magic blast nearly hits him.
Cloaked Figure hovers down.
Cloaked Figure: It's going to be alright.
Cloaked Figure: Psyche!
Alfonse and Sharena are blasted away by cloaked figure.
Cloaked Figure to Diddy: You will be mine.
Veronica Forms a Contract!
FEH-Era is leaking.

We’re gonna need more Aether Amphorae to hold all the salty tears a mobile Fire Emblem game rep will bring.

But I for one would welcome our smol evil princess with many head pats.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,001
Nintendo's been trying (and failing) to get Dragon Quest to catch on in the West for like twenty five years, why stop now.
Honestly DQ would have been popular in the West by now if they'd stop fucking it up. Their big push with DQIX was a valiant effort, but at the end of the day a handheld game focused around local multiplayer was never going to be a smash hit like it was Japan because people in the West prefer to play online. So what did they do with their slam dunk sequel that would have offered full online multiplayer? Why, not localize it, of course!

And then you have the 3DS remakes where they literally made us get on our knees and beg like dogs for years-late ports. Embarrassing all around, but maybe the three-hit-combo of DQ in Smash + DQXIS + Builders 2 will be enough to get the series back on track over here, hopefully supplemented by localizations of DQX and the upcoming Monsters game.
 
Tails has never had an Assist Trophy and there's no reason to suspect the absence of one means anything.
Shadow and Knuckles getting AT representation while Tails only gets a Spirit is a bit strange, to say the least. This is the third time Shadow has reprised his AT role, and the first for Knuckles. Where does that leave Tails? He’s already appeared as a Sticker, multiple Trophies, and most significantly a Mii costume, which is absent along with the other third party outfits.

If Knuckles was never added as an AT, Tails’ absence would be much less suspicious than what it currently is. Outside of the memes it’s hard to argue Knux is a more important and more widely-known character than what Tails is.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,907
If they used Yuusha instead of Brave, a character that is 75% likely to be a Dragon Quest character would 100% be confirmed to be a Dragon Quest character

It's a much weaker code name, which is probably why they didn't use it
If they wanted a good codename they wouldn't even go for one that's 75%.

Jack is only a connection we'd make to Joker with the benefit of hindsight. Brave is too obvious.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,329
Not necessarily. "Brave" is already an extremely odd codename to utilize. Smash typically uses Japanese names as an identifier (hence Plant = Packun), "Jack" is presumably employed for Joker due to his association with Jack Frost (who is always named Jack Frost in every region). Meanwhile you would assume if Brave really is meant to refer to the DQ character, they'd use the name Yuusha for it. On the other hand, Valor Form literally is referred to as Brave Form in Japanese, as in using the actual English word for it, so much like Jack, it makes sense that they'd use an English word in that context. It's no less of a stretch to say it could be a reference to that, than it would be to say Joker = Jack being a reference to Jack Frost. Valor Form is also the first "form" Sora gets (and one of the more iconic ones due to dual wielding), so if you want to use a form as a codename, makes as much sense as any to use that one.

It's easy to assume Brave most likely refers to DQ (and presumably the character is DQ), but there is enough benefit of doubt that Brave could refer to literally anything else that has a vague association with the word. Brave equating to DQ just seems a little too easy, particularly when you consider Jack is a more obscure codename.
I actually forgot Brave Form was the first one you get. For some reason I was thinking wisdom, which I should’nt have since I’ve beat KH2 a few weeks ago lol.

Still, I should really assumed much since it is a code name. It could be anything. At least it wasn’t like the 3DS where it was the characters name outright.
 
Oct 26, 2017
232
I don't think that an MK rep is likely at all, but I don't even think Doom Guy is realistic. I can't see Nintendo rewarding Bethesda with a Smash character just because they've published a few Switch games.
I think with Doomguy it's less "oh he's been on the Switch a couple of times" (especially as every Doom game bar Doom 3's been on a Nintendo console) but more being a genre icon, like Ryu/SF2 being The fighting game and Cloud/FF7 being The JRPG.

Also he has a lot of potential to be cool.