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Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Downloadable Contents Discussion Thread | The Wild Ride is still on!

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NeonZ

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Oct 28, 2017
5,079
I mean, we just got two remakes chock-full of original characters, and the latter of them even introduced new characters in the added sub-mode.

So this isn't really true at all.
Those games get away with it because they're remakes though. The new mode adds a couple of new characters, but even the recent Paper Mario have had new enemy variations and one or two original characters. It's all still clearly limited compared to before.
 

TheDinoman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,409
Again, TMS is a Nintendo published game. Hyrule Warriors isn't, at least in Japan where it really matters the most.

It's not hard, people.
 

MondoMega

Member
Jan 10, 2018
18,244
Sydney, Australia
Those games get away with it because they're remakes though. The new mode adds a couple of new characters, but even the recent Paper Mario have had new enemy variations and one or two original characters. It's all still clearly limited compared to before.
It's seemingly limited, sure, but they can clearly still use older original characters and design new ones if they so desire. The villains added in the BiS remake's sub-mode are a bit different from the enemy variants and "original characters" in the recent Paper Mario games; actually being completely unique designs.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
13,963
I mean, we just got two remakes chock-full of original characters, and the latter of them even introduced new characters in the added sub-mode.

So this isn't really true at all.
They weren't going to remake the games and remove literally every character. I know you know what I mean.

Tanabe: "Aside from wanting us to change the atmosphere a lot, there were two main things that Miyamoto-san said from the start of the project—'It's fine without a story, so do we really need one?' and 'As much as possible, complete it with only characters from the Super Mario world.'"
 

Gold Arsene

Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,393
They weren't going to remake the games and remove literally every character. I know you know what I mean.

Tanabe: "Aside from wanting us to change the atmosphere a lot, there were two main things that Miyamoto-san said from the start of the project—'It's fine without a story, so do we really need one?' and 'As much as possible, complete it with only characters from the Super Mario world.'"
And is their interview where they say this is now law?
 

MondoMega

Member
Jan 10, 2018
18,244
Sydney, Australia
They weren't going to remake the games and remove literally every character. I know you know what I mean.

Tanabe: "Aside from wanting us to change the atmosphere a lot, there were two main things that Miyamoto-san said from the start of the project—'It's fine without a story, so do we really need one?' and 'As much as possible, complete it with only characters from the Super Mario world.'
Sure, of course they wouldn't remove the original characters from the remakes

but I think you ignored the part where they added new original characters since these "restrictions" were put in place (new villains at that, for the sub-mode in BiS DX). Doesn't that go against the quote you have there (which isn't even about Mario & Luigi; Tanabe is talking about Paper Mario: Sticker Star specifically), because they didn't necessarily NEED to add new characters with original designs, but they did anyway?

I just think you'll be surprised by the next Mario & Luigi game; Paper Jam was likely an anomaly (probably caused because of the Paper Mario side, which seems to have much stricter restrictions than Alphadream do).
 

NeonZ

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,079
It's seemingly limited, sure, but they can clearly still use older original characters and design new ones if they so desire. The villains added in the BiS remake's sub-mode are a bit different from the enemy variants and "original characters" in the recent Paper Mario games; actually being completely unique designs.
Huey and the big paint stars are technically originals too, it's just they don't look human-like. There's also the bizarre steak battle. I really don't think a couple of original antagonists shows that they have the same freedom that existed before. Don't forget that the one original Mario & Luigi game we had after these restrictions became obvious was the Paper Mario crossover, which also was very limited.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
13,963
And is their interview where they say this is now law?
Look at the new Mario RPGs released recently and you tell me. Paper Jam has a complete dearth of original Paper Mario content.

Miyamoto's suggestions are as close to "law" as you can get. Miyamoto "suggested" that the Kremlings don't return to the DKC series and K. Rool only came back after fans overwhelmingly made their voice heard.
 

KtotheRoc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
22,761
Controversial opinion:

I don't think Miyamoto "suggesting" the Kremlings not be used in DKCR was a bad thing. I'd actually love to see a similar philosophy used a little more often with major Nintendo franchises.
 

TheDinoman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,409
Controversial opinion:

I don't think Miyamoto "suggesting" the Kremlings not be used in DKCR was a bad thing. I'd actually love to see a similar philosophy used a little more often with major Nintendo franchises.
I dunno, the tikis were pretty lame. I still think they really should of just brought back the Kremlings and K. Rool for DKCR. That said, the Snowmads were worthy enough replacements in Tropical Freeze.

I think a middle ground could be made here, alternating between K. Rool being the villain of some games while others introduce new villains like the Snowmads. It's kinda like how the Joker is Batman's most famous advisary, but Batman also has other enemies to deal with like Bane, Scarecrow, Two-Face, etc.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
13,963
Controversial opinion:

I don't think Miyamoto "suggesting" the Kremlings not be used in DKCR was a bad thing. I'd actually love to see a similar philosophy used a little more often with major Nintendo franchises.
It's not like the Kremlings were in Jungle Beat either or that we were getting tons of DKC games all the time. If we're only getting DKC games once in a blue moon, I'd rather not have to wait a decade for the main villain to return.

They could have had their cake and eat it too - put in the Tikis and then have an extra secret world with Kremling enemies and a K. Rool boss battle, as if to say "we wanted to do something different but we didn't want to forget the classics." With Tropical Freeze it became obvious K. Rool would be in the same spot as characters like Tatanga or Captain Syrup unless the fans spoke out against it.
 

r_n

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,437
I dunno, the tikis were pretty lame. I still think they really should of just brought back the Kremlings and K. Rool for DKCR. That said, the Snowmads were worthy enough replacements in Tropical Freeze.

I think a middle ground could be made here, alternating between K. Rool being the villain of some games while others introduce new villains like the Snowmads. It's kinda like how the Joker is Batman's most famous advisary, but Batman also has other enemies to deal with like Bane, Scarecrow, Two-Face, etc.
The tiki enemies are significantly better than the kremlings in my book. And the bosses were okay, too; the pirate crabs were fun if nothing else. & I liked the tikis controlling them.
The only bad part of the tikis is Tiki Tong sure is bland.
 

MondoMega

Member
Jan 10, 2018
18,244
Sydney, Australia
Controversial opinion:

I don't think Miyamoto "suggesting" the Kremlings not be used in DKCR was a bad thing. I'd actually love to see a similar philosophy used a little more often with major Nintendo franchises.
Such as...? Mario (and Yoshi, as an extension of that) is the only big franchise I can think of that could have this ideology applied. Zelda has taken plenty of breaks from Ganon, Fire Emblem always has a new cast, Kirby changes up the villain every game already, Pokémon obviously doesn’t suffer from this; and I can go on.
 

KtotheRoc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
22,761
Such as...? Mario (and Yoshi, as an extension of that) is the only big franchise I can think of that could have this ideology applied. Zelda has taken plenty of breaks from Ganon, Fire Emblem always has a new cast, Kirby changes up the villain every game already, Pokémon obviously doesn’t suffer from this; and I can go on.
It's not just about the final bosses. It's the regular enemies as well. Imagine Mario games without goombas and koopa troopas. Zelda games without moblins. I know this probably isn't going to happen, but I think it could be interesting.
 

NeonZ

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,079
I dunno, the tikis were pretty lame. I still think they really should of just brought back the Kremlings and K. Rool for DKCR. That said, the Snowmads were worthy enough replacements in Tropical Freeze.

I think a middle ground could be made here, alternating between K. Rool being the villain of some games while others introduce new villains like the Snowmads. It's kinda like how the Joker is Batman's most famous advisary, but Batman also has other enemies to deal with like Bane, Scarecrow, Two-Face, etc.
Or they could go with the Kirby formula where you usually get Dedede as the initial villain somehow before going after the actual new antagonist.
 

MondoMega

Member
Jan 10, 2018
18,244
Sydney, Australia
It's not just about the final bosses. It's the regular enemies as well. Imagine Mario games without goombas and koopa troopas. Zelda games without moblins. I know this probably isn't going to happen, but I think it could be interesting.
Again; they have done that in the examples I listed. Phantom Hourglass and Spirits Tracks followed on the ending of Wind Waker and had the elements of old Hyrule permanently erased. Sure, they could probably do it a bit more often, but it has been done.

Also Sunshine has no Goombas or Koopa Troopas; so there you go.
 

TheDinoman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,409
It's not just about the final bosses. It's the regular enemies as well. Imagine Mario games without goombas and koopa troopas. Zelda games without moblins. I know this probably isn't going to happen, but I think it could be interesting.
Mario Sunshine kinda did that...

The results were....uh....



Weird, to say the least.

I prefer Galaxy and Odyssey's approach of having an even mixture of old, recognizable elements combined with newer stuff, rather than going to the extreme like Sunshine did.
 

TheDinoman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,409
Sunshine certainly had peculiar interpretations of old Mario enemies





Here's something really funny: there's actually a reason to why the enemies in Sunshine are so strange compared to the rest of the series:

From the Mario encyclopedia:



Translation: This game's enemy characters are created by Bowser Jr.'s scribbling. That is why they are weak to water, and differ slightly in design from the rest of the series. Yoshi also vanishes if he falls in water for the same reason.

That's some fucking deep ass lore man
 

MondoMega

Member
Jan 10, 2018
18,244
Sydney, Australia
Sunshine certainly had peculiar interpretations of old Mario enemies





Here's something really funny: there's actually a reason to why the enemies in Sunshine are so strange compared to the rest of the series:

From the Mario encyclopedia:



Translation: This game's enemy characters are created by Bowser Jr.'s scribbling. That is why they are weak to water, and differ slightly in design from the rest of the series. Yoshi also vanishes if he falls in water for the same reason.

That's some fucking deep ass lore man
Why did Bowser Jr. create a Yoshi that expels it's own internal fluids?
 
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