isn't it explained itt? it references mr. game&watch from a game he was in where the game itself has a racist premise.
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Super Smash Bros. Ultimate had an offensive stereotype regarding Native Americans (Update: Removed)
- Thread starter Regulus Tera
- Start date
Perhaps because I'm seeing this from an outside perspective (non American here)
I fail to see what's the big problem. I may be missing some context or something.
I mean, not two days ago, there were probably hundreds of non Natives happily dressed up in that very same stereotypical imagery as part of a holiday.
So yeah. I wouldn't put it past the devs to simply not know that shit really isn't cool. The localization team should have said something, but then a lot of people Stateside are also ignorant about this stuff.
Hopefully it gets back to them and they can patch it out.
i'm not american either
it just seems like something that can be easily fixed so they don't offend anyone with that reference. it's such a minor reference too in a game with thousands of references, it's not worth it to keep that in in the name of artistic integrity or not erasing the past.
The Smash Attack itself is a callback to an original Game & Watch title: Fire Attack, which in hindsight, is pretty insensitive. Basically, "Cowboys & Indians".
Americans throughout the country's history tend to create caricatures of other races to dehumanize them. Those caricatures are often spread to other countries without the context that birthed them. They then become institutionalized as traditions.
That's a national football team and everyone in charge just accepts it. Really, really think about that name and that logo and consider the team is not primarily (or even partially) native American.
The little caricature of a guy with a feather cap burning stuff? That wasn't someone going "I'm pure as the driven snow and think this is cute, gosh golly I sure hope no one ever finds this offensive!" It was born of a mentality that these people were colored differently, they acted differently, and thus they weren't the same as the people with power.
Yeah theres no defending the Redskins and the Indians' logo but the KC Chiefs? Whats wrong with that? You cant reference any minority/civilization/people at all?Americans throughout the country's history tend to create caricatures of other races to dehumanize them. Those caricatures are often spread to other countries without the context that birthed them. They then become institutionalized as traditions.
That's a national football team and everyone in charge just accepts it. Really, really think about that name and that logo and consider the team is not primarily (or even partially) native American.
The little caricature of a guy with a feather cap burning stuff? That wasn't someone going "I'm pure as the driven snow and think this is cute, gosh golly I sure hope no one ever finds this offensive!" It was born of a mentality that these people were colored differently, they acted differently, and thus they weren't the same as the people with power.
Im really trying here but I fail to see where's the fuss. If this is indeed a problem then yes Nintendo should remove it since its not worth the bad rep but I cant help but feel this is overreaction a bit.The Smash Attack itself is a callback to an original Game & Watch title: Fire Attack, which in hindsight, is pretty insensitive. Basically, "Cowboys & Indians".
It's an over the top cartoon version of a race of people who were treated like shit. You dont make cute avatars of a time that they suffered. I'm from the US and the sight of it made me cringe.
It needs to be removed.. it's very tone deaf and void of the knowledge of history.
Woof, the fact that G&W likely has a red skin on top of that makes me think that the feather will be removed really fast.
Ok. But What about the KC Chiefs logo? What's wrong with that? It has no caricature or cartoon version of any Native American. It does however have the tip of an arrow on it. Do you think it's also problematic and should go away?
I think it's the name that most people have an issue with there. I'm not native american so I really cant comment on where the line gets crossed but I do know the cartoon version is beyond the line.
The Chiefs logo continues a long tradition of white domination over native peoples by demonstrating ownership of and commercializing an element of native culture and history beyond the control of those people who first created them. While less egregious and blatantly offensive, it still takes control of a cultural/historical object away from the people who ought to have legitimate claims of ownership and good stewardship
Why are the Native Americans considered racists? They are protecting their land from foreign invaders. If anything it's the cowboy that's racist.
User Banned (3 weeks): Trolling and dismissing concerns of racism, account still in junior phase
It must be exhausting to find everything as being racist.
Without generalising I feel like Japan aren't as socially concerned about this as Western countries might be. Still no excuse, hopefully get removed.
There's not covering up a racist history (see any number of Looney Tunes shorts which they've released with a disclaimer), but then there's ignorantly celebrating it, which this falls under.
There's not covering up a racist history (see any number of Looney Tunes shorts which they've released with a disclaimer), but then there's ignorantly celebrating it, which this falls under.
Like has been said they already changed Fire Attack's graphics when it was in Game and Watch Gallery 4 so I'd hope they'd do the same for this.
And, I was thinking to myself, "Wow, I must have been too young to notice the 'Cowboys vs. Indians' imagery when I played G&W Gallery 4." Turns out it didn't even exist in its original form in the collection. Yeah, they should go with this. Folks will still recognize it, and they'll get a history lesson out of it too when they realize it's not quite accurate.
In reference to what? The Sombrero?
I'm very much a "better safe than sorry" kinda guy, but I think they are pretty different. I'm neither Mexican nor Native American so I can't relate, but all of the Mexican folks I know love somebrero Mario. Whereas the G&W imagery not only references a violent act but also harkens back to a racist game.
Hope it gets patched out! I suspect 0 malintent, so now it's time to fix it.
Fire attack's his side smash, right? I don't remember it being like that in Brawl or 4, so the change is unfortunately intentional.
Mr.Game & Watch now changes to the sprites of the original games when attacking, rather than keeping his base Smash design, which is what resulted in that reference being added. It's not a specific pointed change to that one attack, although obviously the issue that this topic focuses on is specific to that one attack.
Yeah, some people found it offensive that Mario was wearing a sombrero and a poncho because they said this represented a stereotypical image of a mexican and therefor was racist. Like you say, many disagreed with that. It was also the first time i've learned that someone found wearing a sombrero and poncho to be racist.
I agree that this is a bit different due to the attacking stuff with the indians, but i think there similarites to the Mario Odyssey as well since it about portraiting someone.
Oh, I missed that fact, that's neat. They probably didn't have to/shouldn't do it for this particular one, though. Since Nintendo already walked it back, as Syril's post shows.
Personally, i dont think so either, but some people felt that way. I didnt expect Nintendo to change anything in Mario Odyssey, but some people felt that they should change it. We'll see if Nintendo reacts differently with Smash.
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Yeah, needs to be changed. Nintendo can choose another game & watch game to reference than this.
Yeah, it's not perfect within context, but I think it's a good middle. I'd be fine with this change.
Like has been said they already changed Fire Attack's graphics when it was in Game and Watch Gallery 4 so I'd hope they'd do the same for this.
Yeah, it's not perfect within context, but I think it's a good middle. I'd be fine with this change.
Nintendo gas had issues with racism before thus game and watch game and now reference
Evreyone remembers original jynx
A sakurai made game, Kirby super star, had a black face designed boss
The original version of Mario 2 usa, doki doki panic, had a decapitated black face as a object
It got replaced by a koopa shell for Mario 2
Evreyone remembers original jynx
A sakurai made game, Kirby super star, had a black face designed boss
The original version of Mario 2 usa, doki doki panic, had a decapitated black face as a object
It got replaced by a koopa shell for Mario 2
No one Mexican legitimately felt that way. That was definitely people being hyper sensitive. Not all cultural depictions are racist.
In this case It's really overreaction imo.
I'm French, what should I say about "passe partout the starving artist" then.
They are just self conscious clichés. No bad intentions or bad depiction of a community.
It's more complex with native american clichés of course, but the sombrerogate, come on...
Nah, that was started by an article by a Mexican American lady. Like, disagree with her all you want but trying to erase her opinion by calling her not a "true Mexican" is a bit gross.
I think we're starting to reach speedy gonzalez territory if people think sombrero mario actually offended anybody.
Mexicans were quite vocal about both those topics and said do not take things they enjoy away from them. Im sure someone has the classic twitter image for odyssey.
Mexicans were quite vocal about both those topics and said do not take things they enjoy away from them. Im sure someone has the classic twitter image for odyssey.
I dont about that, so i cant say much about that to be honest, but i would guess that most people didnt feel this way at least.
I agree. I'm scandiavian and i dont find it offensive when vikings are sometimes used as a character of scandiavian origin. It never really crossed my mind either from what i can remember. I'm just saying that there are different opinions about these things, so i speculate who Nintendo will listen to in this case.
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I hope it's not patched out, really. It's part of Nintendo's history (a tiny little part, obviously) and I don't consider it racist or even stereotypical - since there's hardly any facial traits or something like that. For instance, I consider the "Indians" baseball team logo a little too much, but not this one.
Legit thought that was a bandit cap at first. They should just shift it down a bit and pass it off as that
Is it about who controls the representation rather than the representation itself?
(Similar to "right to image" and "right of distribution" in copyright)
Edit: found the change in an old thread:
Even though it's also to take in account that not every culture wants to have their cultural elements shared in public (for example religious symbols) and some want nothing to do with modern society anyway.
It's not as straightforward as "never make any reference". I think it should be made a bit more explicit on what the offensive issue is by someone better at explaining that kind of things, because as someone not as well-versed in that, I'm unable to focus in on the offense.
Edit: It seems like it IS a case of "never make any reference" here, as any representation has become taboo due to reminding of the genocide that took place in America.
I might still be misinterpreting it (an american taboo rather than a representation problem?) as this is removed from my cultural background.
(Similar to "right to image" and "right of distribution" in copyright)
Yup, they changed the so-called "Tomahawk" costume to a "Hawkeye" cowboy costume.
Edit: found the change in an old thread:
Isn't there a discussion to be had about removing cultural representation wholesale, thus making some cultural groups more invisible/blending together in modern society?
Even though it's also to take in account that not every culture wants to have their cultural elements shared in public (for example religious symbols) and some want nothing to do with modern society anyway.
It's not as straightforward as "never make any reference". I think it should be made a bit more explicit on what the offensive issue is by someone better at explaining that kind of things, because as someone not as well-versed in that, I'm unable to focus in on the offense.
Edit: It seems like it IS a case of "never make any reference" here, as any representation has become taboo due to reminding of the genocide that took place in America.
I might still be misinterpreting it (an american taboo rather than a representation problem?) as this is removed from my cultural background.
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Is this inherently racist or contextually racist?
Is it racist because he's wearing a feather which is something that some indigenous American tribes did?
Or is it racist because it's taken from a Custer-style standoff in which indigenous Americans are laying siege to a Union fort?
I assume it's the latter but I'm interested in this and want to learn more.
Is it racist because he's wearing a feather which is something that some indigenous American tribes did?
Or is it racist because it's taken from a Custer-style standoff in which indigenous Americans are laying siege to a Union fort?
I assume it's the latter but I'm interested in this and want to learn more.
I can clarify this for everyone here. It was very likely unintentional. Here's why:
I lived in Japan for several years. Loved it, but one thing I noticed is that they are largely ignorant to the less superficial aspects of cultures other than their own. What I mean to say, is that they probably are completely unaware that this is considered a negative image. They see the Red Skins baseball team, and cigar store "indians" and all this "Americana" imagery, but they don't keep up to date on what is taboo and what isn't for Americans, because it is largely irrelevant to them in Japan.
They are, to this very day, mostly unaware that people of color and white people have racial issues, because it simply doesn't factor into their daily life. Same goes for aboriginal issues, same goes for women's rights issues. They are simply blissfully unaware, this is why they keep getting in trouble for stuff like this:
or this
/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/45914922/xupnwtolkfpngukc2r4n.0.0.jpg)
or this ( they also had to change the character's age so they weren't 15 years old in the US)
Here in North America, we still, as of last week, sell this in Halloween stores:
I am Mi'kmaw, and so believe me when I say I am the first person who would be offended by something meant to be offensive. This little game and watch fellow is certainly not a pleasant image, but in no way is it intentional. Nintendo can't be expected to know the symbology of this image as it has nothing to do with their culture and history, and we ourselves, sell racist imagery like the costume above, knowing fully what it means to us culturally.
I hope they remove the little torch bearing game and watch guy, but I would ask, as someone who identifies as Mi'kmaw ( Mi'kmaq), that you try not to get too upset and angry, and instead try to explain this oversight to the fine folk at Nintendo.
In the future, if we (North Americans) want international recognition for what we consider culturally taboo imagery, we need to stop selling and promoting it ourselves. Otherwise we set a terrible example for what is and isn't acceptable. And that is how oversights like this happens.
It's super gross, especially because it's something new they added. I don't think this will change for a few reasons
- It probably won't be seen often enough to make a big story, assuming they keep Game and Watch bad
- Sakurai will probably insist on keeping it, considering his history
- Most of the world doesn't seem to really care about Native Americans. We still have the Redskins in America.
I understand the confusion. They're not saying the native Americans themselves are racist, but this depiction of them is. It probably should have read as "The old Game and Watch game Fire Attack saw a guy defending an old west fort against stereotypical Native American guys trying to burn the fort down."
I'll try to connect some dots here, bear with me. Basically, it's a stereotypical portrayal of Native American people that essentially casts them as backwards primitive savages. The game doesn't have cutscenes or anything to say this explicitly, but the imagery and premise are deeply connected to those racist ideas.
As Imran said in his post, the symbols and iconography of Native American peoples and their cultures are often taken out of context and used in tone deaf manners at best, and at worst are used to actively mock, demean, disparage, dehumanize, and oppress those same groups. It can look like those silly Halloween costumes, or Indian-themed casinos, or the sports teams Imran posted that have nothing to do with Native American people, but use caricatures/distortions of their symbols and icons to entertain and profit at their expense. Or it could be the tasteless use/bastardization of a war cry. On top of that, it's important to consider the context and history behind those depictions, a history that includes widespread displacement and genocide. Native Americans were by and large not asked kindly to join the expansion efforts of white settlers. Instead they were used, abused, and bullied out of their land and homes, because white people then saw them as different, as lesser. Distorted depictions of minorities affect how those minorities are seen and treated by the majority. "They look different, they act different; they aren't as smart, or advanced, or organized, or sophisticated. Their traditions and cultures are 'weird' and 'different'," etc. That's the kind of thinking that those stereotypes can reinforce. That's why those kinds of caricatures were and are harmful.
That's why that imagery is wildly inappropriate for this video game.
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This game is going all out with visual changes and also overhauling older characters. Many characters have been given new moves and animation flourishes. Ness and Lucas for instance have the spell graphics from the Mother games in their moves now (after Ness didn't have them for almost 20 years!), Dr. Mario was given some unique moves and uses his diploma instead of his coat now for the cape move, Ganondorf uses his sword in some moves now, and Game & Watch got changed so that he not just references the moves from the G&W games they're taken from, but actually transforms into the characters from that game.
As such, it would also be somewhat strange if the torch move was the only one using the base G&W model when the others don't really do so.
OP
OP
The difference about Mexican sombreros and the feathered headbands is totally context. Nobody in Mexico minds Mario wearing a sombrero because the Sand Kingdom's aesthetics are a nice tribute to Mexican culture, even if a bit cliché. Mr. Game & Watch wearing a feathered headband is a reference to a game where the point is killing "savages" from destroying a fort in a setting that is reminiscent of the extermination campaigns the United States government took against the Native Americans.
It's the drive to make the characters more authentic and the Japanese developers not knowing or bothering to care about offensive things (which is a pattern we've seen in the past). Although this is something that the mainstream US wouldn't have flagged as offensive in the early 80s (while the native rights movement really started up in the 60s and 70s, I'd say it wasn't until the 90s that it penetrated mass consciousness and the problems of anti-Indian racism started to be taken seriously).
Hopefully Treehouse puts their foot down.
This is a shame. I really loved G&W's f-smash...
User Banned (1 week): Dismissing concerns about representation, junior account
If you don't like it don't buy it. Stop ruining my games by trying to police what I can play and how should I do it.
This is like the sombrero thing on Mario Odyssey, Americans saying it was offensive, Mexicans feeling it as a compliment and the rest of the world didn't care.
Should we ban native American outfits on videogames? There are a lot. How about desert levels with egiptian scenery? How many games have oriental themes?
Remember, being offended is an emotion we decide to choose. Instead of demanding to others to change so we can't be offended, better try to stop feeling offended in first place. It is clear that Nintendo doesn't want to cause harm, so please let the company have some artistic integrity.
This is like the sombrero thing on Mario Odyssey, Americans saying it was offensive, Mexicans feeling it as a compliment and the rest of the world didn't care.
Should we ban native American outfits on videogames? There are a lot. How about desert levels with egiptian scenery? How many games have oriental themes?
Remember, being offended is an emotion we decide to choose. Instead of demanding to others to change so we can't be offended, better try to stop feeling offended in first place. It is clear that Nintendo doesn't want to cause harm, so please let the company have some artistic integrity.