Super Smash Bros Ultimate has 19 white male characters (6 of which are blue eyed / blonde hair), and 0 women of color

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
10,690
Please don't be obtuse. You know damn well what I mean. I'm so tired
Nobody actually knows what you mean because your post deliberately ignored characters that didn't fit whatever your definition is of "unique." In what way are characters like King K. Rool and Ridley a "main dude" or "soulless avatar?"
 

A.By

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,839
You're the one that has repeatedly said "low-effort", which comes across as "lazy dev" rhetoric.





Your statement that another SNK rep could've gotten in just because others were crossovers in other games is just ludicrous. Sakurai clearly goes for the most iconic characters that will make the most amount of people happy, as evident by every single character selection over the last 20 years of the franchise. Putting in some other lesser known character just for the sake of checkmarking a box for diversity is how to confuse and disappoint a lot of people. What you should be crusading against is the game industry's history itself.
I do both, I criticize on a multitude of levels. I criticize other games, so what you're essentially asking for is for Smash to be above criticism - that, or you think that there is nothing Sakurai could do to fix representation in Smash. Which, um, okay lul.

And no, I did not say low effort, I said "relatively low effort." Which means "less effort than he puts into other areas of the game." That he puts less effort into female characters than male characters is an observable fact. Shit, if I redid my list to include every character and only included gender-option characters on the female side AND assumed that every non-specific gendered character was female (ie Incineroar and Duck Hunt), female characters would still be decently behind. So please, I am actively begging you to reply to what I am saying, not what you infer. I'm not calling Sakurai lazy, so if you continue on that path, I'll have to categorize your posts with "lazy argument" rhetoric.
 
May 13, 2019
805

A.By

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,839
Do people really not understand how eye-rolling it is to say this game is not diverse enough when there's so much variety in characters? It just doesn't have gender/racial parity which might be bad in real-life, but this is a videogame full of non-humans.
Do you understand how eye-rolling it is to ask for women and the response be "but we have crocodile"
 

Acido

Member
Oct 31, 2017
813
Nobody actually knows what you mean because your post deliberately ignored characters that didn't fit whatever your definition is of "unique." In what way are characters like King K. Rool and Ridley a "main dude" or "soulless avatar?"
I want more female characters, the avatars that have female versions and the dog with a skirt don't count... no matter how you look at it, Smash needs more female characters. It's pretty clear to me
 
Sep 29, 2019
17
None of what you argued has made a comparable point to Regulus Tera, who is correct in saying that Terry was great for SA gamers. All I've seen you say is that it doesn't matter if a female character is wholly original or not (assuming I read your posts correctly).
Just because I didn't outright SAY it, doesn't mean I wasn't thinking it.
 

A.By

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,839
So the male inhuman characters don't count either then, right?
That's actually an interesting question. Fully unique characters who are human (disregarding gender alts)

Mario
Wario
Marth
Ike
Little Mac
Snake
Hero
Joker
Simon
Terry
Cloud
Ryu
Ness
Captain Falcon


Peach
Rosalina & Luma
Samus
Bayonetta

For what it's worth, the gender parity improves, haha.
 

BassForever

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,954
CT
“Relatively low effort” vs “low effort” is still essentially “lazy dev” rhetoric, and all you did was prove my point. Instead of being happy that Sakurai and co decided to spend the time to add a female version of a previously male only character, it’s a “relatively low effort/lazy dev” inclusion.

Sakurai and co even added a canon female pikachu in Smash in pikachu libre, but I guess you forgot about that, or it’s another “low effort” inclusion. If they had confirmed Fatal Cutie version of Terry that would probably have been a “low effort” inclusion as well.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
10,690
Count towards what? You seriously don't think the game needs more female characters? Bye
Not sure how you got that impression. My point is it's silly to act like female characters "don't count" when a large portion of Nintendo characters are not standard-looking humanoids. Isabelle is one of Nintendo's most popular female characters, acting like she doesn't count but characters like K. Rool and Ridley count as male characters is BS.
 

jnWake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,041
I mean, there are more male characters with unique movesets since they tend to be the leads of their franchises. It's not that they "put more effort" into them.
 

mopinks

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,045
Sakurai and co even added a canon female pikachu in Smash in pikachu libre, but I guess you forgot about that, or it’s another “low effort” inclusion. If they had confirmed Fatal Cutie version of Terry that would probably have been a “low effort” inclusion as well.
that’s more of a “low brow” inclusion
 

BassForever

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,954
CT
Not sure how you got that impression. My point is it's silly to act like female characters "don't count" when a large portion of Nintendo characters are not standard-looking humanoids. Isabelle is one of Nintendo's most popular female characters, acting like she doesn't count but characters like K. Rool and Ridley count as male characters is BS.
Maybe they were part of the backlash against Isabelle when she was announced for being a “safe, lazy” choice. Before Terry was announced she was probably the character who had received the most back lash during all of the smash ultimate release cycle.
 

Acido

Member
Oct 31, 2017
813
Smash needs more female characters
Not sure how you got that impression. My point is it's silly to act like female characters "don't count" when a large portion of Nintendo characters are not standard-looking humanoids. Isabelle is one of Nintendo's most popular female characters, acting like she doesn't count but characters like K. Rool and Ridley count as male characters is BS.
Ok, the dog counts.







Smash still needs more female characters
 

A.By

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,839
“Relatively low effort” vs “low effort” is still essentially “lazy dev” rhetoric, and all you did was prove my point. Instead of being happy that Sakurai and co decided to spend the time to add a female version of a previously male only character, it’s a “relatively low effort/lazy dev” inclusion.

Sakurai and co even added a canon female pikachu in Smash in pikachu libre, but I guess you forgot about that, or it’s another “low effort” inclusion. If they had confirmed Fatal Cutie version of Terry that would probably have been a “low effort” inclusion as well.
Tell you what, report the post. If the mods decide that wanting Sakurai to prioritize different things fits, then it fits. But as it is, your argument is nonsense. Lazy dev rhetoric explicitly involves accusing the developer of laziness. Saying that he put low effort into an aspect of Smash is not by itself adequate to say that he is lazy, because "he's lazy" would be the reason given by someone for it if it was lazy dev rhetoric.

And no, I did not forget about Pikachu Libre in my assessment of fully original female characters because it's not relevant to that. It just seems really weird how aggressive you are about the fact that I want more work put into female characters than they are, more original movesets. Like, why do you care so much that I am asking for that?
 
Oct 27, 2017
432
About the same, honestly.
"Skyward Sword...not specifically popular or notable otherwise"
Man, you're up in this thread just spewin' mad bullshit about SS.
Nah, it "aIn'T aBoUt tHe sAmE".
OoT Impa is a living mcguffin; she mostly exists to let you know that you've beaten the shadow dungeon. Link has, like, two notable conversations with her and those only last a minute or so.
SS's Impa (in addition to having the best design out of all of them) is a major character with actual depth who appears multiple times throughout the story and ends up settling into a surprising "Two Aliases, One Character" role. She's a rival/critic of Link, a guardian/teacher to Zelda, a grandmother figure to Groose, and a threat to Demise/Ghirihim. Makes sense to me why LoZ fans would want that particular incarnation represented. I don't think it'll happen anytime soon because Sakurai just doesn't seem interested in giving us Zelda reps beyond multiple Links, but its understandable why there is a bit of clamor for SS's Impa.
 

jnWake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,041
I hope Fighters Pass 2 adds a free character like Piranha Plant too. Would be the perfect chance to add Dixie.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
10,690
Maybe they were part of the backlash against Isabelle when she was announced for being a “safe, lazy” choice. Before Terry was announced she was probably the character who had received the most back lash during all of the smash ultimate release cycle.
September is a cursed month for Smash reveals clearly.
 

A.By

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,839
I hope Fighters Pass 2 adds a free character like Piranha Plant too. Would be the perfect chance to add Dixie.
That would be a nice choice for a free character honestly. Another idea would be Octoling, that'd be a nice way to have a default female and default non-white character.
 

KtotheRoc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,984
"Skyward Sword...not specifically popular or notable otherwise"
Man, you're up in this thread just spewin' mad bullshit about SS.
Nah, it "aIn'T aBoUt tHe sAmE".
OoT Impa is a living mcguffin; she mostly exists to let you know that you've beaten the shadow dungeon. Link has, like, two notable conversations with her and those only last a minute or so.
SS's Impa (in addition to having the best design out of all of them) is a major character with actual depth who appears multiple times throughout the story and ends up settling into a surprising "Two Aliases, One Character" role. She's a rival/critic of Link, a guardian/teacher to Zelda, a grandmother figure to Groose, and a threat to Demise/Ghirihim. Makes sense to me why LoZ fans would want that particular incarnation represented.
It's great that you're a fan, but SS isn't exactly well-regarded among 3D Zeldas. It sold about 3.67 million, which is really low for a 3D Zelda game.

As far as Impa goes, she's still a minor character in SS. You don't play as her. The plot doesn't revolve around her. And she's about as much an inspiration to Zelda as she was in OoT.
 

Aexact

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,376
Considering Ness is on that list I now want to see a realistic human version of Ness.
Ness made it but not Lucas. Poor kid.

...
Anyway, having more female and PoC characters would be nice. There’s a lot of competition for those “slots” though. Framing specific wants like female humanoid default and being disappointed when it doesn’t happen is a road to disappointment though. Not to say you shouldn’t feel disappointed, I bet Geno, Goku or Sora fans are bound to feel letdown by the end of all this, but it’s gotten to be more and more specific from the pool of candidates to pull from. Like asking only for a Chun Li or Jill.

Yeah, I get that it’s for the sake of more female character parity but framing one’s personal priorities as the ideal character choice priority is maybe the leading cause of Smash character selection arguments. There’s a lot of variables in play.
 

Linde

Member
Sep 2, 2018
3,071
some female echoes would be really nice and conceptually simple like
dixie kong
jody summer
impa
celica (robin)
obviously still a ton of development work, but would be cool

i do hope the next fighters pass has some cool female characters though
ayumi tachibana
hatsune miku
style savvy rep
haruka amami
 

A.By

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,839
Echo Fighters are certainly a good way to see more women, so if they do do more Echo Fighters, I hope they add some fun ones. Kumatora, Paula, Hilda, Celica, Jeanne, Heroine, Medusa, all could be Echoes. Would have also been nice if they had Pikachu Libre be an Echo and give her a grapple move, haha.

Ness made it but not Lucas. Poor kid.

...
Anyway, having more female and PoC characters would be nice. There’s a lot of competition for those “slots” though. Framing specific wants like female humanoid default and being disappointed when it doesn’t happen is a road to disappointment though. Not to say you shouldn’t feel disappointed, I bet Geno, Goku or Sora fans are bound to feel letdown by the end of all this, but it’s gotten to be more and more specific from the pool of candidates to pull from. Like asking only for a Chun Li or Jill.

Yeah, I get that it’s for the sake of more female character parity but framing one’s personal priorities as the ideal character choice priority is maybe the leading cause of Smash character selection arguments. There’s a lot of variables in play.
I was only choosing fully unique characters, and Lucas is at least somewhat based on Ness.
 

Linde

Member
Sep 2, 2018
3,071
It's great that you're a fan, but SS isn't exactly well-regarded among 3D Zeldas. It sold about 3.67 million, which is really low for a 3D Zelda game.

As far as Impa goes, she's still a minor character in SS. You don't play as her. The plot doesn't revolve around her. And she's about as much an inspiration to Zelda as she was in OoT.
shes arguably one of the most important figures in the game though...
 

KtotheRoc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,984
I barely remember Impa in SS. But then, I barely remember SS at all. It's one of the lesser Zelda games by a significant degree.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,540
Seattle
I've been looking at the roster recently, and with the addition of Terry, it really makes me realize how terrible the roster is when it comes to diversity.

On top of that, just how many white males are on the roster, and then how many of them have blue eyes or blonde hair.

Does anybody else find this a bit....problamatic? It's one of the biggest games in the world and it doesnt have a single person of color in the cast whilst having plenty of white/white-passing fighters.
The Industry is problematic.
 

MoonToon

Member
Nov 9, 2018
514
It’s weird.
Skull Kid, Midna, and Ghirahim- iconic and highly popular LoZ favs who happen to be major characters in their games- have only been able to make it in as mere assist trophies. At the most Urbosa is a minor character on the level of someone like Saria or Princess Ruto who only appears in, like, three cutscenes of a 50+ hour game...why anyone thinks Sakurai would ever look her way is beyond me.
It's not about "would", it's about "should".

Like, you list Midna and Skull Kid and say "they've only been able to become AT" ... but should that be the case? Why shouldn't they be playable in Smash? They're literally the stars of their games. The LoZ series is so packed with fun, important, memorable, recognizable characters that there's a whole spin-off game that allows you to play as your favs in a DW beat-em-up. Why is it that Sakurai only allows these 3 characters to rep the series?

Why is this such a LoZ only thing? Cause most of them aren't important to the whole series?
Is Tony the Tiger important to Pokemon the SERIES or is he only in because he's 1 of 20 Mons TPC used to shill the newest gen?
Is Chrom and like most of the FE cast important to the SERIES or do they just rep the games they're important to?
Is Rosalina important to the Mario SERIES or was she just an important character from SMG that Nintendo decided to keep around cause people like her?

Can't speak for everyone but I feel like Urbosa is asked for partly because she's a good guy Gerudo from BoTW (A big ass turning point for the series. It's one of those series defining games and makes a clear path towards where the series will go moving forward) and the Gerudo are a well known race in the world of LoZ ... mostly connected to the big bad Ganon.
I remember the days when people in the LoZ fandom would debate about how problematic it was that the dark skinned guy was the villain and the white boi was always the hero. "Why can't Link be reincarnated as a girl? He's a different person every game! Wouldnt it be cool to have a game where you play as a Gerudo? Should LoZ become ... STEAMPUNK!?!". It's refreshing to see them spot lighted as members of the hero's team.
 

Aexact

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,376
I barely remember Impa in SS. But then, I barely remember SS at all. It's one of the lesser Zelda games by a significant degree.
I think part of that may be because interacting with Impa the most in SS is actually a plot twist. Interaction with the wispy ninja version is on par with OoT.
 
You realize that pokemon trainer isn't based off the male, right? She's based off the concept of being a pokemon trainer! Don't even try that argument with me.
EDIT: In fact, In that case, Dark samus shouldn't be allowed to be on her list in that case. Or inkling. Or literally any female character other than samus, because samus is the one that showed that you could HAVE a strong female character.Which means they were all based on her, therefore, they aren't valid. Do you see now how flawed this logic is?
The female pokemon trainer was introduced as "oh hey we added a girl version to this male character from 10 years ago." I mean shit, Pokemon didn't let you play as a girl until a few games into it. There aren't a lot of female characters to begin with, but consider how many are based off of or tied to male characters:
  • Nana is tied to Popo. Even if you're "maining Nana", you're the Ice Climbers, unless you make a point of killing Popo at the start of every stock I guess
  • Villager is an avatar, so having male and female versions makes sense, but all Villagers are completely identical except in appearance.
  • Wii Fit Trainer has the male alt, though this is really just due to them being generic personal trainer personalities than actual characters.
  • Miis are also avatars, so it's hard to count them, even if one of the defaults appears to be a woman.
  • Lucina is explicitly based on Marth, not just in Smash, but her conceptual design. This is pointed out repeatedly in FE: Awakening as well.
  • Female Robin, another avatar, was literally introduced with "PS: you can play as Female Robin" at the very end of the reveal
  • Wendy is the one girl among 8 Koopa Kids. You can tell she's the girl because she has the bow and rings and stuff!
  • Female Corrin, yet another avatar-- at least she doesn't have to wait til the end of the trailer to get shown
  • Inkling is also an avatar, but at least the female version gets priority
  • Kazooie is literally attached to Banjo
So who do we have for female characters that aren't avatars, or tied to/based off of dudes?
  • Samus
  • Zero Suit Samus (debatable since it's Samus)
  • Zelda
  • Shiek (also debatable)
  • Peach
  • Daisy (as an Echo, very debatable-- also there's that whole whitewashing thing)
  • Rosalina
  • Palutena
  • Bayonetta
  • Isabelle
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
10,690
Ness made it but not Lucas. Poor kid.

...
Anyway, having more female and PoC characters would be nice. There’s a lot of competition for those “slots” though. Framing specific wants like female humanoid default and being disappointed when it doesn’t happen is a road to disappointment though. Not to say you shouldn’t feel disappointed, I bet Geno, Goku or Sora fans are bound to feel letdown by the end of all this, but it’s gotten to be more and more specific from the pool of candidates to pull from. Like asking only for a Chun Li or Jill.

Yeah, I get that it’s for the sake of more female character parity but framing one’s personal priorities as the ideal character choice priority is maybe the leading cause of Smash character selection arguments. There’s a lot of variables in play.
Goku fans will be let down forever if they think he will get into Smash
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
10,690
I think Dixie would work best as a semi-clone. I'm not sure she can be an echo fighter with her hair mechanic. The basic idea for an echo fighter is they could pass for an alt costume but have become a full fledged fighter (this is what happened to Lucina and Dark Pit). I don't think you could do justice to her hair attacks without being at least an Isabelle-level clone.

I'd love a Kumatora echo fighter though. I'd actually play as her over Lucas.