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IntelliHeath

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,184
I dunno, I think it's possible that the DLC after #5 might be Nintendo-based (or at least not third-party only).

Also, the latest FE character isn't to promote a recent game TBF - Chrom was added for Smash popularity. If FE characters are promotional, it really should have been Celica as a Robin Echo Fighter. More original design, more original Echo choice, more magic user options.

I'm not convinced that we would get Nintendo-based Fighter Pass after this. It just seems that Sakurai want to collaborate more with new franchises and perhaps companies, and he mentioned that he haven't broke the record with collaboration YET so he seems to imply that he's almost there. It made me feel like that we should expect more third parties which I'm perfectly fine with since they are more exciting than first party characters to me right now. So I'm not too optimistic about it tho.

I'm not counting out first party characters yet tho.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
Based on everything said, 3rd party seems very likely for after character 5. Maybe there is one or two first party, but thay doesn't guarantee one being. And even then...she is an assist trophy.

I got really confused because I thought we were still talking Celica, and was like "she's not an AT tho??"

I'm not convinced that we would get Nintendo-based Fighter Pass after this. It just seems that Sakurai want to collaborate more with new franchises and perhaps companies, and he mentioned that he haven't broke the record with collaboration YET so he seems to imply that he's almost there. I'm not too optimistic about it tho.

I'd be happy to see it, and I could see there being a justification for why Sakurai would - because none of the Ultimate cast is from a Switch game. Trying to think what Switch characters would be good...

ARMS
Xenoblade Chronicles 2
Splatoon 2
Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle
Fire Emblem: Three Houses
Astral Chain
Snipperclips
Ayumi Tachibana (SHE'S FUCKING RELEVANT AGAIN HOLY SHIT JAY LOCALIZE IT SAKURAI)

'Course, there are some third-party Switch games I'd like to see repped.

Octopath Traveler
Celeste (I can wish can't I? gotta get my trans representation baybee)
Cadence of Hyrule
 
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Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,379
Houston, TX
Really? Interesting...
Twintelle was directly cited by the ARMS team as being insanely popular, to the point where she was added to the Global Testpunch at the last minute. As for Min Min, she won the Party Crash Bash, which factors in both popularity & skill (similar to Splatfests). Since Party Crashes don't break down the popularity like Splatfests do, we don't have a specific ratio. But we can at least surmise that Min Min is up there with Twintelle in terms of popularity.
 

IntelliHeath

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,184
I got really confused because I thought we were still talking Celica, and was like "she's not an AT tho??"

It would be cool if Celica would got in over Chrom since two Robin seems to be much better than having Four Marth. I completely understand why Chrom got in since he have huge fanbase and Sakurai said there are demands for him tho.
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,793
But our point is that options do exist, especially with regards to women in general. It wouldn't kill anyone if Sakurai & Nintendo took advantage of a few of them. Yes, the industry has failed women & people of color for a good long while. But Smash is also part of that industry. Use what's available, as while there are only a handful of characters of color, there are a solid number of women to choose from.

What female character is such a glaring omission from the game that you think deserved a spot over any of the non-Echo newcomers in your opinion?
 

TimeFire

Avenger
Nov 26, 2017
9,625
Brazil
I got really confused because I thought we were still talking Celica, and was like "she's not an AT tho??"



I'd be happy to see it, and I could see there being a justification for why Sakurai would - because none of the Ultimate cast is from a Switch game. Trying to think what Switch characters would be good...

ARMS
Xenoblade Chronicles 2
Splatoon 2
Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle
Fire Emblem: Three Houses
Astral Chain
Snipperclips
Ayumi Tachibana (SHE'S FUCKING RELEVANT AGAIN HOLY SHIT JAY LOCALIZE IT SAKURAI)

'Course, there are some third-party Switch games I'd like to see repped.

Octopath Traveler
Celeste (I can wish can't I? gotta get my trans representation baybee)
Cadence of Hyrule

Sad thing is, I can totally see the Detective being put in instead of Ayumi. The only game she actually leads isn't included in the compilation remake :(
 
Aug 12, 2019
5,159
1. Can you provide the source that demonstrates that Ms. Pac-Man would be allowed in the capacity she is in but nothing else? If so this is just your speculation on what the legal dispute means.
2. If Sakurai prioritized the most highly discussed characters only, the roster would be a lot different.
3. I mean, you can make the argument just as well to say that Pit is a bad choice for Smash. He's just a niche character from a couple middling successes.
4. Is King K. Rool more popular overall? Or just in the Smash scene?
5. It's very weak, because it's the same argument people have made for years to criticize certain suggestions for years. For people like me who enjoy seeing stranger characters or characters who push boundaries of what people can expect for Smash, it makes discussion tedious and pointless when people are saying "Smash doesn't [X]" without explaining the [Y] of the matter. Smash doesn't feature transforming characters in 64, all Smash characters in 64 came out relatively recently, all Smash characters in Melee were Nintendo, all Smash characters in Brawl lacked gender options, all third-party companies in 4 had only one character, all third-party characters in 4's DLC were one per series, etc. So when you're admitting that the reason for Chun-Li being unlikely is weak, it just seems like you're scraping the bottom of the barrel to make it seem like there are fewer options than there are.
6. You need to be consistent. If Square Enix regarding Nine and Ten equally to the other Heroes is not an important factor, how they market DQ protagonists is not either. And I'm in agreement that they don't market the character well, but that sounds like a sexism issue, so it's not a great argument. If Sakurai pushed for Heroine, even a bit, that'd be a thing, but he doesn't seem to have.
7. Some following should be adequate. Like, Krystal doesn't need to be the most likely or best choice, she just needs to be a possible choice, and she is.
8. The amount of time a character is in a game in cutscenes is irrelevant to the substance of the cutscenes. She brews potions, she casts spells, she transforms people and objects, she can summon objects, she can grow and shrink things, she has a flying broom, she can summon familiars (she literally has a devil as a companion), she can grow giant carnivorous plants, she has a magic wand that can transform into different objects such as a parasol, shoot lightning, use mandrake roots, and has a wand. This, I might add, is from the video you posted. I don't know how you think Ashley has no moveset potential when the various cutscenes across the games show TONS of stuff. I mean, Ice Climbers made an entire moveset out of literally one move, so I don't know exactly why you'd think Ashley would pose any trouble.
9. I think you overestimate how much Sakurai cares about the fanbase. If he cared that much, K. Rool and Ridley would have been in years ago. Also, the game sold very well on both Wii U and Switch and has a new entry on the horizon, it's more than eligible for a second rep.
10. Not adequate reasons.
11. What you said is entirely personal opinion, and in a discussion that IIRC is about reasons why they are unlikely, it's not really useful. The reason why we could or should have two Midnas? Because it'd be cool. Zelda's a great character, and having a variant on Zelda would be great, especially one like Midna. It'd also be interesting and unexpected, and be, I think, a better Echo choice than anything else for Zelda (the next best would be Hilda, but I feel she would just be Daisy levels of Echo).

It becomes a problem when the "Debunking" revolves around speculating reasons why a character can or cannot be in. And honestly, what changed between Smash U to give us "definitive knowledge" of how Sakurai operates? What you describe as incredibly detailed knowledge is just your best guess as to Sakurai's motives. That Sakurai has not said that a third-party franchise cannot or should not have two unique characters means that the argument has no more basis than the notion in Smash 4 that third-party companies are only allowed one character each.

Smash isn't made by a machine, despite what Sakurai's aging may suggest. Sakurai has the ability to seek out POC characters, it's just not something he is interested in doing. It doesn't invalidate the notion of Smash being a celebration of gaming's past or present, because the list of characters who appear in Smash is not also the list of the most significant characters in gaming, even in terms of franchises. Like, Lyn for instance is one of the most popular characters in Fire Emblem, more popular than she was in her debut game. Why is she absent?

Look, we'll agree to disagree, lest this go back and fourth forever. All the characters I've mentioned have issues that either prevented them from being in Ultimate's base game, or make them less appealing choices for additions than a great deal of other fighters. They're not inherently impossible, but they are less likely (in some cases considerably so). Yes, it's speculation, and I've admitted to as much. I don't think that means it doesn't have to have some basis in reality of what information I've consumed regarding Smash and Nintendo. There's more logic to Sakurai's choices than I think people want to admit once you start following the series and his interviews. He can still surprise us (or well he would be able to if he was choosing fighters) with a personal pick, but characters that don't line-up with a lot of things tend not to really get in. He's had considerably obvious focuses in roster additions since Smash 4, and if we do our best to account for blind spots, I don't think he's as entirely unpredictable as his mythos sometimes implies he is. Brand new third party franchises, for example, is an idea rooted in the logic that new franchises attract new fans, increase the number of crossovers to make Sakurai and Nintendo happier about their huge crossover becoming even harder to top, and inherently are better self-promotions because the Smash Bros. X has a lot of power to advertise the game and keep people talking about it. Adding a third Street Fighter character, for example, doesn't achieve any of those goals and just goes deeper without attracting as much attention or a new audience. I think it's much more based in reasoning than the whole, "You can't have two characters from the same company."

I'll also admit I might be harsh on Ashley for moveset potential because I think very little of the WarioWare characters as Smash additions. I'm biased and people know that (for example, I personally detest the idea of ARMS in Smash because I actually really dislike its aesthetics and most of its characters (Twintelle is one of the few I'm fine with)). I have my own blind spots and biases. But I do like some of these choices like Midna, like Krystal, and like Elma. I just don't see them as likely for a variety of reasons I've already laid out, and I keep my enjoyment of characters completely separate from my predictions and speculation. It's a bloody shame that Elma and Xenoblade Chronicles X don't draw the kind of attention that 2 has in my mind, but it's just considerably more popular and so is the idea for Rex/Pyra/Mythra in Smash and I can't do anything about that.

As for Lyn (I know you weren't talking to me), bad timing. Marth was the clear original and Roy was an easy promotional semi-clone. Then Ike was relevant for Brawl with Path of Radiance's release and Radiant Dawn's recent release on Wii. Then Smash 4 came and Robin was chosen to represent Awakening as a unique mage and then Lucina got a lucky upgrade to playable from costume. Smash 4 DLC wanted some veterans, so Roy came back. Then when Nintendo wanted a promotional rep for a recent/upcoming game in Smash 4, Fates was chosen due to moveset potential and being one of the only options at the time (yeah I know Elma, but that's not who they went with and I've got no good reason for that other than a determination to make Fire Emblem a big IP... which finally paid off with Heroes and Three Houses it seems), so we got Corrin. Then we already had a model of Chrom to use in the game and he was popular during the ballot thanks to Lucina/Robin's reveal trailer, so he was a super easy Echo. That's how you get 7 Fire Emblem characters and none of them Lyn (despite being one of the best in my opinion). Now it seems like another Fire Emblem character would go to Three Houses... so yeah...

And I'm sorry, two Midnas might be one of the most outlandish ideas I've ever heard proposed for Smash (and I'm a bloody Midna fan to begin with!!!).
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,379
Houston, TX
What female character is such a glaring omission from the game that you think deserved a spot over any of the non-Echo newcomers in your opinion?
  • Urbosa, Twintelle, Elma, Octoling, Impa, literally any woman over Piranha Plant
  • Sophia over Solo for Hero
  • Nakoruru over Terry
  • Female Corrin as the default over Male Corrin
    • Not a newcomer, but still
  • Female Villager as the default over Male Villager
    • See Corrin
  • Jill Valentine over Joker
    • I say this as a Joker main, but the hardest choices require the strongest wills
That's off the top of my head, considering that I'm on my phone right now.
 
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Aug 12, 2019
5,159
Make your argument against two Midnas then dang it! lol

Why would you go for a Midna Echo... and not the Impa Echo if you're dead-set on a Zelda Echo also being added in addition to a unique Midna? Plus, I feel like there's a good chance that Midna might inherently have a her Twili form as either part of the moveset or her final smash lol.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,176
And what from all the third party picks we've gotten in the history of Smash makes you think they'd choose Jill over Chris/Leon?

I wasn't even talking about Jill. I was talking about the idea that Capcom pushing Monster Hunter would make a difference in who Nintendo/Sakurai picks.
 
Aug 12, 2019
5,159
  • Urbosa, Twintelle, Elma, Octoling, Impa, literally any woman over Piranha Plant
  • Sophia over Solo for Hero
  • Nakoruru over Terry
  • Female Corrin as the default over Male Corrin
    • Not a newcomer, but still
  • Jill Valentine over Joker
    • I say this as a Joker main, but the hardest choices require the strongest wills
That's off the top of my head, considering that I'm on my phone right now.

Look, Nakoruru over Terry makes no damn sense. He's the poster child of SNK and he's their Mario for all intensive purposes. I realize we got Banjo & Kazooie before Master Chief... but Banjo & Kazooie also had so much fan demand to make that happen... whereas SNK characters have nothing to base a Nakoruru pick over Terry (Look, I personally preferred Nakoruru to Terry... but I have to admit Terry is just the clear cut choice here).

That said, Nakoruru is an excellent second SNK rep pick since we've got Fatal Fury in now, Samurai Showdown should totally be in, and she is the face of that franchise nowadays.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,176
I do agree that options are limited, especially with regards to people of color. But taking advantage of even one or two of the options that are there wouldn't hurt anyone & would be appreciated. Though regarding Twintelle, there are signs of her dethroning Ribbon Girl as the leading lady. And as far as popularity goes, it's mainly between her & Min Min.

Does it matter if she dethrones Ribbon Girl though when the future of ARMS is to say the least uncertain? Like when is the opportunity for this to come? It'll be a long time before the next console Smash and if we get a first party character as DLC it's not gonna be from ARMS. It just doesn't seem like there's any reason to expect anyone from ARMS in the foreseeable future.
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,793
  • Urbosa, Twintelle, Elma, Octoling, Impa, literally any woman over Piranha Plant
  • Sophia over Solo for Hero
  • Nakoruru over Terry
  • Female Corrin as the default over Male Corrin
    • Not a newcomer, but still
That's off the top of my head, considering that I'm on my phone right now.

Piranha Plant is probably the only new character that was his own guilty pleasure character since he enjoys doing retro characters.

As much as I love Urbosa, she's so minor that I can't see her getting a slot ever, especially over someone like Midna or Fi. Elma's time was on Wii U and I would expect Rex+Pyra to get billing if any additional XLC characters.

With DQ Sophia would've been nice but given how controlling SE was with FF7 it leaves me doubting he could force them on that.

Terry is SNK's mascot.

Female Corrin exists. I really don't understand nor empathize with the issue that you have to press a button to pick Female Corrin.

If an ARMS character gets in and it's not Ribbon Girl, Twintelle, or MinMin then I'd be with you. Since the game didn't do well I'm not sure if they'll bother.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
That's off the top of my head, considering that I'm on my phone right now.

  • Urbosa, Twintelle, Elma, Octoling, Impa, literally any woman over Piranha Plant
I'd be fine with these. While I grew to like PP I wouldn't cry if someone else had gotten in.

Female Corrin as the default over Male Corrin
Should have happend by now so another agree.

Female Villager as the default over Male Villager
Not something I particularly want but hey I wouldn't complain.

Jill Valentine over Joker

Annnnnnnnnddddddd you lost me. Don't like RE and I sure as shit am not getting rid of the first Ultimate newcomer since Inkling I actually wanted. I'm sorry but I'm never gonna get this mindset that I have to stop liking or wanting some characters just because there dudes. I can ask for both Tracer and Travis. It shouldn't have to be an "either or."
 

ToddBonzalez

The Pyramids? That's nothing compared to RDR2
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,530
Not many Nintendo characters to choose from unfortunately. Twintelle is the only one I can think of that they could add.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,379
Houston, TX
Piranha Plant is probably the only new character that was his own guilty pleasure character since he enjoys doing retro characters.

As much as I love Urbosa, she's so minor that I can't see her getting a slot ever, especially over someone like Midna or Fi. Elma's time was on Wii U and I would expect Rex+Pyra to get billing if any additional XLC characters.

With DQ Sophia would've been nice but given how controlling SE was with FF7 it leaves me doubting he could force them on that.

Terry is SNK's mascot.

Female Corrin exists. I really don't understand nor empathize with the issue that you have to press a button to pick Female Corrin.

If an ARMS character gets in and it's not Ribbon Girl, Twintelle, or MinMin then I'd be with you. Since the game didn't do well I'm not sure if they'll bother.
  • ARMS sold well over 2 million (which is great for a new fighting game IP) & to Nintendo's expectations. That definitely isn't "didn't do well", unless you were expecting Splatoon numbers (which not even Nintendo expected).
  • Defaults get the marketing & (with a few exceptions) the Amiibos, they matter.
  • I don't blame Sakurai or Nintendo for no Sophia, but my concern is that the female options weren't even brought up based on Sakurai's account of the negotiations.
  • True, but Nakoruru is in the Top 3 most popular SNK characters, right behind Terry & Geese.
  • Wouldn't they go for Impa over Fi?
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
ARMS sold millions...

Look, Nakoruru over Terry makes no damn sense. He's the poster child of SNK and he's their Mario for all intensive purposes. I realize we got Banjo & Kazooie before Master Chief... but Banjo & Kazooie also had so much fan demand to make that happen... whereas SNK characters have nothing to base a Nakoruru pick over Terry (Look, I personally preferred Nakoruru to Terry... but I have to admit Terry is just the clear cut choice here).

That said, Nakoruru is an excellent second SNK rep pick since we've got Fatal Fury in now, Samurai Showdown should totally be in, and she is the face of that franchise nowadays.

Samurai Shodown has a sequel, one that is set to release on the Switch. That by itself is a justification for Nakoruru over Terry. Terry over Nakoruru is obviously not wrong, but neither is the reverse. Again, we don't inherently have to have the most popular character every single time.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
ARMS sold millions...



Samurai Shodown has a sequel, one that is set to release on the Switch. That by itself is a justification for Nakoruru over Terry. Terry over Nakoruru is obviously not wrong, but neither is the reverse. Again, we don't inherently have to have the most popular character every single time.
It's less he the most popular and more he's there mascot. A factor that I feels resonates most with Smash.

It'd be like if we got Luigi and Sonic at the Olympic Games.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
I'm sorry but I'm never gonna get this mindset that I have to stop liking or wanting some characters just because there dudes. I can ask for both Tracer and Travis. It shouldn't have to be an "either or."

??? It was Hero who proposed that Neoxon provide characters to replace other characters in Smash, and no one has ever said you should stop liking or wanting characters.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
It's less he the most popular and more he's there mascot. A factor that I feels resonates most with Smash.

It'd be like if we got Luigi and Sonic at the Olympic Games.

Nakoruru's an entirely different franchise character though. It's more Mario in a spin-off or Link in a spin-off.

He's referring to Jill over Joker, in addition to my reasoning.

No I mean, you weren't making the argument - not directly anyway - that Joker should not be in so that Jill should be in, unless I'm misunderstanding.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,379
Houston, TX
No I mean, you weren't making the argument - not directly anyway - that Joker should not be in so that Jill should be in, unless I'm misunderstanding.
If I was on my laptop, I could've came up with replacements for all of them. But the Joker replacement was tough on me given my love of Persona.
 

MoonToon

Banned
Nov 9, 2018
2,029
I forgot to mention, mad respect for this post. Some people get so invested in negativity when it comes to Smash roster discussion. Like, I've made innocuous comments about thinking a character would be fun to have in Smash and have someone be just SO aggressive in such a strange way over it. Like, a person can't just want a character or characters, they need to have a thesis at the ready, and they need to go by the book, no rule-breaking allowed.

Honestly, some Smash fans are among the most miserable gamers I've ever met
This is part of why I don't do too much smash talk.

People try to shut you down and you get roped into prepping a 2 page essay with slides and power points about how you're better at reading this random Japanese men's mind (who you don't know nor never met) than they are.

I say just want what you want, realize that this game is amazingly unpredictable and hope for the best.
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,793
  • ARMS sold well over 2 million (which is great for a new fighting game IP) & to Nintendo's expectations. That definitely isn't "didn't do well", unless you were expecting Splatoon numbers (which not even Nintendo expected).
  • Defaults get the marketing & (with a few exceptions) the Amiibos, they matter.
  • I don't blame Sakurai or Nintendo for no Sophia, but my concern is that the female options weren't even brought up based on Sakurai's account of the negotiations.
  • True, but Nakoruru is in the Top 3 most popular SNK characters, right behind Terry & Geese.
  • Wouldn't they go for Impa over Fi?

ARMS did okay on their hit new system without any big competition. There's no way they will do another ARMS now that Smash is our. 2 million is break even for Nintendo games and it was the Mario Kart team so I imagine expectations were a little higher.

What Corrin marketing are you talking about exactly? Female Corrin got an amiibo.

There's no way SNK is getting a 3rd rep.

I don't see how you can even think that Sakurai didn't try considering he has made every attempt at introducing female options, especially female Trainer, which definitely did not need to happen.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
??? It was Hero who proposed that Neoxon provide characters to replace other characters in Smash, and no one has ever said you should stop liking or wanting characters.
Neoxon has made several post recently about how they can't be hyped about characters they normally would be so it was more my confusion over that mindset mixed with me being a huge Persona fanboy who despises the idea of loosing Joker.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,379
Houston, TX
ARMS did okay on their hit new system without any big competition. There's no way they will do another ARMS now that Smash is our. 2 million is break even for Nintendo games and it was the Mario Kart team so I imagine expectations were a little higher.

What Corrin marketing are you talking about exactly? Female Corrin got an amiibo.

There's no way SNK is getting a 3rd rep.

I don't see how you can even think that Sakurai didn't try considering he has made every attempt at introducing female options, especially female Trainer, which definitely did not need to happen.
  • It hit their expectations, so I'd imagine that it was successful enough to justify an extra character (Springtron) & two years of Party Crash support. Plus EPD franchises got sequels from less (just ask Pikmin).
  • I meant alts in general. Female Corrin got lucky.
  • I never said a third, but Nakoruru is close enough in popularity to where an argument for her over Terry could be made.
The problem is that there aren't many primary options. I can respect the alternate options, but it's simply a band-aid on a larger issue that shouldn't be hand-waved. Smash Ultimate is the biggest fighting game ever, we should expect better from it.
 
Aug 12, 2019
5,159
  • ARMS sold well over 2 million (which is great for a new fighting game IP) & to Nintendo's expectations. That definitely isn't "didn't do well", unless you were expecting Splatoon numbers (which not even Nintendo expected).
  • Defaults get the marketing & (with a few exceptions) the Amiibos, they matter.
  • I don't blame Sakurai or Nintendo for no Sophia, but my concern is that the female options weren't even brought up based on Sakurai's account of the negotiations.
  • True, but Nakoruru is in the Top 3 most popular SNK characters, right behind Terry & Geese.
  • Wouldn't they go for Impa over Fi?

On the Corrin issue, I think it's just the male alt got grandfathered in like Dr. Mario got grandfathered as a unique fighter and not an Echo. That was the one they originally chose and Sakurai didn't want to break from that. Corrin's the singular female alt that wasn't a main that actually got an Amiibo, so that has to be worth a little bit too (though I personally don't see the harm in changing the female alt to the main, I'm just describing why it probably happened and we didn't see any chance).

As for Nakoruru vs. Terry, didn't you answer your question as to why we got Terry?

Samurai Shodown has a sequel, one that is set to release on the Switch. That by itself is a justification for Nakoruru over Terry. Terry over Nakoruru is obviously not wrong, but neither is the reverse. Again, we don't inherently have to have the most popular character every single time.

So does King of Fighters that will likely be releasing on Switch. Like Terry is the main man of SNK by all accounts, and it would take some sort of major incentive to pick someone over the character that literally acts as the mascot of the entire company. That's what I keep getting at though, Sakurai and Nintendo need to be incentivized if their going to pick smaller or less popular characters over the more popular option. There's different ways to achieve that, but in the absence of clear fan demand or extenuating circumstances, they're going to go with that most popular option.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,176
I think most could agree that Piranha Plant could have been any ol' character, but trying to rewrite history and say "well, it should have been this character instead" doesn't really feel like a productive talking point. It happened. Sakurai chose a potted plant as the first DLC character for Ultimate. Shouldn't the discussion going forward be "what characters could they add now?" rather than "Sakurai should have cut X character for Y?"

If I'm honest, I feel the stakes for diversity in Smash are rather low compared to series that create their own characters. I'm not saying it couldn't be better or Nintendo and Sakurai shouldn't add women or characters of color. But it's extremely clear Sakurai's vision of Smash is near-uncompromising in focusing on main characters, especially as the ambassadors for third party series in a mega-crossover like Smash, and a large portion (I would even say maybe the majority) of the roster are inhuman cartoony characters to begin with. Is it ideal? Probably not. But saying "Sakurai should pick this side character for diversity instead!" is... just not going to happen, after five games and 70+ characters.

So what is to be done? Are we going to rally on Nintendo and Sakurai to cater to our demands that he drop his intentions and vision for Smash, love it or hate it? Without an actual Smash Ballot to create tangible data of our demands, it doesn't feel like we're doing much more than screaming into the ether. Smash Ultimate is the best selling fighting game of all time in less than a year of its release. They are in a position to only listen to our demands when they see fit. They could just fuck off and make the DLC nothing but Goombas if they wanted to. Again, diversity is good. We should have more of it, especially in the industry at large. But there is a part of me that feels like we aren't helping the situation if we're just buying the game and DLC no matter what. There doesn't seem to be an actual attempt to change this besides going to Twitter and tweeting @ Nintendo over and over in the hopes that whoever runs their social media notices and sends the message up the chain to Nintendo Of Japan and Sakurai.

I'd like to see characters like Dixie and Arle. Will they add them? I hope so. Would I be bummed if the DLC is literally all dudes and Kazooie? Yeah, a bit. But there's honestly a lot going in with how these characters are licensed and agreed upon, and an unknown level of involvement from Nintendo's corporate chain that there is little we can accomplish on our end, besides making the voices heard and hope someone listens. All of the back-and-forths on an internet forum mean nothing compared to what Nintendo and Sakurai think will sell as DLC. They have their vision, and consumer input can affect that vision, as it has in the past. But there doesn't seem to be any way to actually materialize that, and me personally, I'd rather try to enjoy what we get, rather than bemoaning Terry Bogard or Joker because they are guys that don't meet whatever standards I've made up in my head.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
4,956
I think most could agree that Piranha Plant could have been any ol' character, but trying to rewrite history and say "well, it should have been this character instead" doesn't really feel like a productive talking point.

Neoxon was replying to a question someone asked, otherwise no one has really talked about X instead of Y, except for Chrom, the worst character in Smash
 
Aug 12, 2019
5,159
He's the fourth Marf, and the third Awakening character

Even in Fire Emblem he's a super uninteresting choice for an Echo Fighter, due to those qualities. He's honestly the only character I'd feel okay to see cut.

I mean, he was specifically a requested fighter and he's the epitome of inoffensive as an Echo. I don't see why he's such an issue other than not being specifically who you wanted as an Echo. It seems like Echoes were mostly made around requests and third parties. If Impa had been more requested she might have been the choice, but that doesn't seem to have been the case unless Sakurai really just dislikes her for some reason or doesn't think she works as an Echo (which seems more likely TBH). Both Dixie Kong and Impa were characters thrown around as Echoes that just screamed people trying to get characters in without them being actually developed and notable on their own right. I think Impa works slightly better, but they're both crying for original movesets or at least proper semi-clone status I feel like.
 

Deleted member 49438

User requested account closure
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Nov 7, 2018
1,473
1. Can you provide the source that demonstrates that Ms. Pac-Man would be allowed in the capacity she is in but nothing else? If so this is just your speculation on what the legal dispute means.
From 3 Days Ago, relevant text at bottom of article: " As the complicated case winds its way through the courts, it seems unlikely anyone will be able to navigate the licensing issues at play and release any new official Ms. Pac-Man products in the near future."

9. I think you overestimate how much Sakurai cares about the fanbase. If he cared that much, K. Rool and Ridley would have been in years ago. Also, the game sold very well on both Wii U and Switch and has a new entry on the horizon, it's more than eligible for a second rep.
It becomes a problem when the "Debunking" revolves around speculating reasons why a character can or cannot be in. And honestly, what changed between Smash U to give us "definitive knowledge" of how Sakurai operates?
From the Banjo showcase we get it from Sakurai directly that adding more DLC characters gives them more opportunities to please the fans & connect more game worlds in regards to their ongoing DLC plans.

Sakurai tweeted this in regards to at least the first fighter's pass, noting that Nintendo made the decisions this time, and he lets them know if he can make them into a character. We do not know if it will be exactly the same for the future DLC characters.

An older article from Wii U era quoting Sakurai in his weekly Famitsu magazine columns where he talks about what he thinks about when adding new characters to the game. I think the part that is particularly troublesome for a lot of representation for women & people of color in Smash relates to this particular qualifier "Is the character a representative character [for the source material]?"


To expound upon this I'm just going to throw out a few of my opinions, which I understand are subjective.

For example, Urbosa, who is my favorite character in Breath of the Wild personally, but isn't necessarily "representative" of Breath of the Wild. Whereas characters like K Rool & Ridley are pervasive villains throughout multiple games feel like they are representative of their franchise/games. Impa fits the idea of having been in multiple Zelda entries, but it's entirely subjective if you think she's representative of the franchise/those games. Midna is unquestionably representative of Twilight Princess & I think would have the coolest/most unique moveset. Twintelle is another where the popularity gap may be small enough that she could be considered, but if Nintendo thinks that clashes with their pushing of Spring Man & Ribbon Girl to represent the franchise then it could hurt her chances. And that is also where we get to what I believe is the biggest barrier for a lot of the best female/POC reps...

Most likely several of these characters aren't considered purely for business/money related issues. For 3rd parties it comes down to Nintendo/Sakurai approaching them and requesting use of their characters. I imagine that Nintendo/Sakurai come with a character in mind, but ultimately it is up to the 3rd party to choose who would represent their brand. The other comes purely from whether Nintendo/Sakurai believe that the addition of the character will sell more copies of the game & more fighters passes. Characters like Urbosa & Elma are awesome, but if they don't believe they will increase sales (however misguided that assumption may or may not be), then they're probably excluded from the conversation.

I don't mean to go over the top with the "debunking" as I understand speculating about characters that you'd love to see represented is part of the whole fun & hype cycle, but I just wanted to try and lay out some of the reasoning why these characters are at a disadvantage when it comes to making it in. I hope that as many of them overcome those hurdles as possible so that by the time the next Smash comes around we're seeing a roster that's more representative.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
From 3 Days Ago, relevant text at bottom of article: " As the complicated case winds its way through the courts, it seems unlikely anyone will be able to navigate the licensing issues at play and release any new official Ms. Pac-Man products in the near future."



From the Banjo showcase we get it from Sakurai directly that adding more DLC characters gives them more opportunities to please the fans & connect more game worlds in regards to their ongoing DLC plans.

Sakurai tweeted this in regards to at least the first fighter's pass, noting that Nintendo made the decisions this time, and he lets them know if he can make them into a character. We do not know if it will be exactly the same for the future DLC characters.

An older article from Wii U era quoting Sakurai in his weekly Famitsu magazine columns where he talks about what he thinks about when adding new characters to the game. I think the part that is particularly troublesome for a lot of representation for women & people of color in Smash relates to this particular qualifier "Is the character a representative character [for the source material]?"


To expound upon this I'm just going to throw out a few of my opinions, which I understand are subjective.

For example, Urbosa, who is my favorite character in Breath of the Wild personally, but isn't necessarily "representative" of Breath of the Wild. Whereas characters like K Rool & Ridley are pervasive villains throughout multiple games feel like they are representative of their franchise/games. Impa fits the idea of having been in multiple Zelda entries, but it's entirely subjective if you think she's representative of the franchise/those games. Midna is unquestionably representative of Twilight Princess & I think would have the coolest/most unique moveset. Twintelle is another where the popularity gap may be small enough that she could be considered, but if Nintendo thinks that clashes with their pushing of Spring Man & Ribbon Girl to represent the franchise then it could hurt her chances. And that is also where we get to what I believe is the biggest barrier for a lot of the best female/POC reps...

Most likely several of these characters aren't considered purely for business/money related issues. For 3rd parties it comes down to Nintendo/Sakurai approaching them and requesting use of their characters. I imagine that Nintendo/Sakurai come with a character in mind, but ultimately it is up to the 3rd party to choose who would represent their brand. The other comes purely from whether Nintendo/Sakurai believe that the addition of the character will sell more copies of the game & more fighters passes. Characters like Urbosa & Elma are awesome, but if they don't believe they will increase sales (however misguided that assumption may or may not be), then they're probably excluded from the conversation.

I don't mean to go over the top with the "debunking" as I understand speculating about characters that you'd love to see represented is part of the whole fun & hype cycle, but I just wanted to try and lay out some of the reasoning why these characters are at a disadvantage when it comes to making it in. I hope that as many of them overcome those hurdles as possible so that by the time the next Smash comes around we're seeing a roster that's more representative.

I see, interesting note on Ms. Pac-Man. For the Chun-Li-likes, indeed, we don't know quite yet whether the next set of DLC will be as focused on marketing as this one was.

I just wish Elma was the final Smash 4 DLC, that would have been a lot more fun than Corrin.
 
Aug 12, 2019
5,159
I am discussing his role in relation to potential Fire Emblem Echoes.

I'd rather not have another Marth Echo, I'd rather not have another blue-haired swordsman, and I'd rather not have another Awakening character. In hindsight, Chrom feels like quite the boring choice.

I mean, Chrom got in due to the fact he had a working model already in the game over other options. Something like Black Knight was probably not a practical Echo in any sense, and Celica was less popular and arguably came into focus too late as a Shadows of Valentia character anyway. Those are the only other options I can think of that make any sense for FE echoes.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
I mean, Chrom got in due to the fact he had a working model already in the game over other options. Something like Black Knight was probably not a practical Echo in any sense, and Celica was less popular and arguably came into focus too late as a Shadows of Valentia character anyway. Those are the only other options I can think of that make any sense for FE echoes.

I'm confused, what do you mean of Celica? She was a main character of the most recent FE game.
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
15,180
West Blue
I see, interesting note on Ms. Pac-Man. For the Chun-Li-likes, indeed, we don't know quite yet whether the next set of DLC will be as focused on marketing as this one was.

I just wish Elma was the final Smash 4 DLC, that would have been a lot more fun than Corrin.
So far 1 of the 4 DLC fighters had a recent or upcoming Switch game, so it would be pretty impressive for it to get even less marketing-focused than that.

All retro pack maybe?
 
Aug 12, 2019
5,159
I'm confused, what do you mean of Celica? She was a main character of the most recent FE game.

Oh, I figured when you were talking about more interesting FE echoes that you were thinking of Celica. I saw her name thrown around a fair amount as an Echo of Robin. I figured that since her game came out in mid-2017 that she was too late for the Smash project plan in addition to not being as popular an option as Chrom (for the obvious reasons of Gaiden never releasing in the West haha).

Also, Three Houses?
 

Moose the Fattest Cat

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Dec 15, 2017
1,439
Been saying this since Mega Man came in, then again when Ryu / Ken came in --

Chun Li is the first playable female character in a fighting game ever! Ever! She has an iconic moveset! She should be in the damn game!