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Oct 25, 2017
4,956
Oh, I figured when you were talking about more interesting FE echoes that you were thinking of Celica. I saw her name thrown around a fair amount as an Echo of Robin. I figured that since her game came out in mid-2017 that she was too late for the Smash project plan in addition to not being as popular an option as Chrom (for the obvious reasons of Gaiden never releasing in the West haha).

Also, Three Houses?

Perhaps, but it was in development around the time. As someone noted, FE characters are generally promotional and the value of them is to create more fanbases, so giving SoV a wider audience could have been really good.

So far 1 of the 4 DLC fighters had a recent or upcoming Switch game, so it would be pretty impressive for it to get even less marketing-focused than that.

All retro pack maybe?


Hm? There's a King of Fighters game coming out, two of the four Heroes have games on the Switch, and Joker appears in Persona Q2 and Persona 5 Scramble. Banjo and Kazooie is the only character that doesn't have a game coming to the Switch.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,163
I think the issue when coming down to who is a good or bad Smash addition is so subjective that it's difficult to say "they should have cut this character" because that's a character fans already like, and in many cases, wanted in the game (with a couple of exceptions like Piranha Plant). Chrom is my least favorite addition to Ultimate and if he got cut next game I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep. I couldn't care less about Fire Emblem, especially the post-Awakening era. But he's a favorite for a lot of people and a lot who really wanted him in Smash. I know someone who said Chrom was their favorite Nintendo character ever. There are people who think King K. Rool is a terrible inclusion but he was my most wanted for the last decade and I literally cried tears of joy at his trailer. There was someone in this thread who said every character since Bayonetta sucked. There just isn't going to be a good way to talk about who should be prioritized over whom because you can't please everyone.

I'd say Sakurai has done a better job of trying to please everyone than almost anyone else could in his position. The lack of female fighters is the biggest and most earned criticism for Ultimate's newcomers. There are some I'd like to see, some I couldn't care less about. Does Sakurai plan to add any? I hope so, preferably one I'd enjoy, but we just have to wait and see.

Hm? There's a King of Fighters game coming out, two of the four Heroes have games on the Switch, and Joker appears in Persona Q2 and Persona 5 Scramble. Banjo and Kazooie is the only character that doesn't have a game coming to the Switch.

Scramble doesn't even have a release date, I feel confident in saying it probably had 0 to do with Joker's inclusion in Smash.
 

Deleted member 2669

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,044
I mean that just has to do with the fact that people see Spring-Man as the obvious choice and the one that embodies the game's mechanics the best as the de facto mascot. I don't actually think a lot of people are dying to have an ARMS character either way. They aren't going to fruitlessly support a character like Twintelle if the best Spring-Man and Ribbon Girl can get is secondary representation as an Assist Trophy and costume.

Like without an actual Smash Ballot to materialize our demand, people aren't going to be starting movements and campaigning. We don't even know if the characters are decided on for future DLC yet.
Why can't people see merit in one character without completely discounting another? Why can't more than one character from the same game be seen as viable options? Why is being a significantly more popular character not something of merit? Why is that not something that warrants breaking a "rule"?

All of the squabbling over what's "realistic" only comes across as a vector for people to impose laws on others based on their own personal values. It's not like any of us actually know what Sakurai is going to do, especially considering he continues to defy our expectations. So it comes down to whether or not you want these "realities" to be true, because people always want characters without outright expecting them, and our expectations of who may or may not be added shifts with each newcomer.

Consider this: if you don't consider someone like Doom Slayer to be a likely addition, do you still think he should be in the game? He has a lot going against him, but he is easily justifiable and he would be super cool.

Heck, we once assumed western characters weren't in the cards, but we obviously didn't support that either in spite of our own expectations. The same is true now of indies for many people.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
Imagine how cool Impa would be

ImpaSword.gif


tumblr_ol6mbtrhGA1u1ry24o3_500.gif


tumblr_n9nbqrrxRj1s8ouhxo2_500.gif


tumblr_ol6mbtrhGA1u1ry24o2_500.gif


She also looks very gay

42dc5672b3b23f98cf0238bd01d61d16272b1cde_hq.gif
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
15,180
West Blue
Perhaps, but it was in development around the time. As someone noted, FE characters are generally promotional and the value of them is to create more fanbases, so giving SoV a wider audience could have been really good.




Hm? There's a King of Fighters game coming out, two of the four Heroes have games on the Switch, and Joker appears in Persona Q2 and Persona 5 Scramble. Banjo and Kazooie is the only character that doesn't have a game coming to the Switch.
The famous Smash x Persona 5 advertising surrounding Joker suggest to me that it wasn't a cynical advertising campaign for a 3DS spin-off (although fair-enough, I did forget about the musou game, but same logic there). And have they even announced platforms for KOF XV yet? We just got a splash screen at EVO, there was no mention of Switch anywhere (and last time we assumed a character meant an imminent port, P5R happened).
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
The famous Smash x Persona 5 advertising surrounding Joker suggest to me that it wasn't a cynical advertising campaign for a 3DS spin-off (although fair-enough, I did forget about the musou game, but same logic there). And have they even announced platforms for KOF XV yet? We just got a splash screen at EVO, there was no mention of Switch anywhere (and last time we assumed a character meant an imminent port, P5R happened).

My bad, I misunderstood something about KoF.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,163
Why can't people see merit in one character without completely discounting another? Why can't more than one character from the same game be seen as viable options? Why is being a significantly more popular character not something of merit? Why is that not something that warrants breaking a "rule"?

All of the squabbling over what's "realistic" only comes across as a vector for people to impose laws on others based on their own personal values. It's not like any of us actually know what Sakurai is going to do, especially considering he continues to defy our expectations. So it comes down to whether or not you want these "realities" to be true, because people always want characters without outright expecting them, and our expectations of who may or may not be added shifts with each newcomer.

Consider this: if you don't consider someone like Doom Slayer to be a likely addition, do you still think he should be in the game? He has a lot going against him, but he is easily justifiable and he would be super cool.

I wouldn't be opposed to Doom Slayer. He is one of the grandfathers of a mostly unrepresented genre in Smash and Doom would be a fun series to include. I don't think I'm saying anything groundbreaking either when I say I think Spring-Man suffers from fighting game mascot syndrome where he is surrounded by much more interesting characters, including Twintelle. I don't think my opinions factor into this much though. There are lots of characters I would like that are near-impossible. I'd love to see Velvet Crowe in Smash but I know they would pick Lloyd or Yuri before her as a Tales rep, 100%.

I do think some guidelines (I prefer that to the term "rule") are pretty ironclad on Sakurai's end, and that includes wanting to represent a new series with the mascot. Sakurai sees Smash as a giant crossover and he sees these characters as ambassadors of their gaming worlds. Spring-Man makes much more sense in that sense than anyone else. I don't think that's controversial to say. We can sit here and say he should break it for a more interesting character, and that'd be great, but this is how he's composed all of these rosters for the last 20 years.

Is it the fun and most interesting choice? Personally, I wouldn't say so, it's why I wasn't that enthused about Little Mac (all the interesting Punch-Out characters are the bosses) but I would understand why. I also don't think the fan demand for Twintelle, or an ARMS character in general, is significant enough to even register to him or Nintendo. This is the guy who only added Ridley, the main villain of a classic Nintendo series, after nearly two decades of constant begging and two separate statements saying "sorry, he's impossible." There are a few characters that I could see "break the rule" (emphasis on quotation marks) with enough demand, like Geno. I just don't see characters like Twintelle being in that realm. Heck, I'm not even sure Nintendo is interested in doing anything with ARMS in the future, for Smash or otherwise.
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
15,180
West Blue
My bad, I misunderstood something about KoF.
And to be fair to your point, there are a shit-ton of those retro KoF and Fatal Fury games on the eShop. I guess my main point is when they're pushing a game, it's generally not subtle (queue Sakurai saying "Dragon Quest XIS Definitive Edition Only for Nintendo Switch" 20x in the trailer) but for other small releases they probably wouldn't bother with a whole Smash character just for relatively minor third-party releases that won't move hardware units and won't bring in much revenue (as Nintendo only gets a fraction of those sales).

So I'm enclined to trust Sakurai is genuinely picking characters he likes and thinks make sense at least most of the time, with only a few cynical marketing deals sneaking in here or there.
 

MoonToon

Banned
Nov 9, 2018
2,029
Okkkkkkk ... so I'm reading up on this thread and people are trying to say Chun-Li shouldn't/ can't get in because of some "NO 2 UNIQUE move-sets from the same series for a 3rd party" rule?

lol, WUT!?!?
Chun-Li is the legit QUEEN of fighting games.
No one's gonna cry if they put in Chun-Li, Lara Croft and/ or Tracer. These are 3 undoubtedly viable picks for famous 3rd party women in gaming.

(I personally hope the next passes arent non-stop 3rd party characters... put those are 3 reasonable picks all the same)
 
Aug 12, 2019
5,159
Why can't people see merit in one character without completely discounting another? Why can't more than one character from the same game be seen as viable options? Why is being a significantly more popular character not something of merit? Why is that not something that warrants breaking a "rule"?

All of the squabbling over what's "realistic" only comes across as a vector for people to impose laws on others based on their own personal values. It's not like any of us actually know what Sakurai is going to do, especially considering he continues to defy our expectations. So it comes down to whether or not you want these "realities" to be true, because people always want characters without outright expecting them, and our expectations of who may or may not be added shifts with each newcomer.

Consider this: if you don't consider someone like Doom Slayer to be a likely addition, do you still think he should be in the game? He has a lot going against him, but he is easily justifiable and he would be super cool.

It comes down to the fact you have to choose a character to represent a game. The first ARMS character represents all of ARMS by extension and inherently does win out over all of the other options. ARMS isn't as bad as others in regards to who you choose, it's just one game with an undefined future, but something like Final Fantasy has considerably more factors to consider in who you choose to represent the game and how.

My personal concern with ARMS is that Nintendo will want to push Spring Man and Ribbon Girl as their main characters no matter what despite being among the blandest characters in the game, and that Nintendo push would supersede any popularity. My ideal scenario is to have Twintelle become the face in ARMS continues since it is just the one entry. But Spring Man and Ribbon Girl are the super straightforward male and female type characters Nintendo would probably like to bank on. Twintelle might make some sense at this point as a Spirit upgrade if they decide to include ARMS though. But we have seen the popularity angle play out in regards to Banjo & Kazooie being picked over a more "suitable" Microsoft rep.

And again, I have to emphasize the idea that Sakurai isn't some inherently unpredictable dude. He has a lot of fairly obvious "tell" at this point that are well documented through his interviews and decisions in prior Smash rosters that shows his process. Lots of the "fan rules" throughout the years were heavily based on different ideas of conjecture and without consideration to other elements in actual play. But I think we're getting to a point where it's going to be extremely difficult for Sakurai to actually surprise us with how much is both simultaneously on the field and has also been discussed. His guidelines of "video game characters and appeared on Nintendo (no matter how minor)" are obviously the hardest rules he adheres to, but he's quite predictable when it comes to representing new series. The only surprise I could see there would be like Resident Evil where you've got a few different options or other games with rotating cast members that share similar status like Lloyd and Yuri of the Tales brand.
 
Aug 12, 2019
5,159
Okkkkkkk ... so I'm reading up on this thread and people are trying to say Chun-Li shouldn't/ can't get in because of some "NO 2 UNIQUE move-sets from the same series for a 3rd party" rule?

lol, WUT!?!?
Chun-Li is the legit QUEEN of fighting games.
No one's gonna cry if they put in Chun-Li, Lara Croft and/ or Tracer. These are 3 undoubtedly viable picks for famous 3rd party women in gaming.

(I personally hope the next passes arent non-stop 3rd party characters... put those are 3 reasonable picks all the same)

It's less that she can't, and more that going deeper into existing third parties doesn't bring as much to the game as newer fighters (and we already got a Ken who straddles the line as a unique fighter). There's little wrong with Chun-Li, but again she doesn't pull in a new audience since Street Fighter fans are already here for Smash about as much as they will be and she doesn't contribute to the expanding nature of Smash as a new third party. Those have been two very emphasized things during Smash DLC. She will generate some buzz though, so I guess that works (but she also probably frustrates a great deal of people who have been waiting for a different Capcom fighter). Like, if it's between Chun-Li and Jill Valentine, you should go for Jill Valentine because she brings a new universe and even genre into the game.
 

Daysean

Member
Nov 15, 2017
7,392
Okkkkkkk ... so I'm reading up on this thread and people are trying to say Chun-Li shouldn't/ can't get in because of some "NO 2 UNIQUE move-sets from the same series for a 3rd party" rule?

lol, WUT!?!?
Chun-Li is the legit QUEEN of fighting games.
No one's gonna cry if they put in Chun-Li, Lara Croft and/ or Tracer. These are 3 undoubtedly viable picks for famous 3rd party women in gaming.

(I personally hope the next passes arent non-stop 3rd party characters... put those are 3 reasonable picks all the same)
Would've way preferred her than Ken tbh
But i get it, easier to make a echo fighter...
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,163
I would personally love for them to dip into unique secondaries for guest series, the potential is endless. I don't think that's in the cards for now though. Sakurai made a big deal of Smash Ultimate being the biggest crossover in gaming history at E3, with that picture of all of the IPs on the roster. That's going to be his focus for DLC.
 
Aug 12, 2019
5,159
I would personally love for them to dip into unique secondaries for guest series, the potential is endless. I don't think that's in the cards for now though. Sakurai made a big deal of Smash Ultimate being the biggest crossover in gaming history at E3, with that picture of all of the IPs on the roster. That's going to be his focus for DLC.

I'd rather he do that in the future when he can't get all the companies back on board and has to maybe focus more on a handful as opposed to having free range like he does now. Or just make Smash Bros. vs Capcom finally lol.
 

KtotheRoc

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
56,638
I would personally love for them to dip into unique secondaries for guest series, the potential is endless. I don't think that's in the cards for now though. Sakurai made a big deal of Smash Ultimate being the biggest crossover in gaming history at E3, with that picture of all of the IPs on the roster. That's going to be his focus for DLC.

I definitely think that's going to happen at some point. Chun-Li, Alucard, Zero, Sephiroth, Tifa, etc...
 

Deleted member 2669

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,044
I wouldn't be opposed to Doom Slayer. He is one of the grandfathers of a mostly unrepresented genre in Smash and Doom would be a fun series to include. I don't think I'm saying anything groundbreaking either when I say I think Spring-Man suffers from fighting game mascot syndrome where he is surrounded by much more interesting characters, including Twintelle. I don't think my opinions factor into this much though. There are lots of characters I would like that are near-impossible. I'd love to see Velvet Crowe in Smash but I know they would pick Lloyd or Yuri before her as a Tales rep, 100%.

I do think some guidelines (I prefer that to the term "rule") are pretty ironclad on Sakurai's end, and that includes wanting to represent a new series with the mascot. Sakurai sees Smash as a giant crossover and he sees these characters as ambassadors of their gaming worlds. Spring-Man makes much more sense in that sense than anyone else. I don't think that's controversial to say. We can sit here and say he should break it for a more interesting character, and that'd be great, but this is how he's composed all of these rosters for the last 20 years.

Is it the fun and most interesting choice? Personally, I wouldn't say so, it's why I wasn't that enthused about Little Mac (all the interesting Punch-Out characters are the bosses) but I would understand why. I also don't think the fan demand for Twintelle, or an ARMS character in general, is significant enough to even register to him or Nintendo. This is the guy who only added Ridley, the main villain of a classic Nintendo series, after nearly two decades of constant begging and two separate statements saying "sorry, he's impossible." There are a few characters that I could see "break the rule" (emphasis on quotation marks) with enough demand, like Geno. I just don't see characters like Twintelle being in that realm. Heck, I'm not even sure Nintendo is interested in doing anything with ARMS in the future, for Smash or otherwise.
It comes down to the fact you have to choose a character to represent a game. The first ARMS character represents all of ARMS by extension and inherently does win out over all of the other options. ARMS isn't as bad as others in regards to who you choose, it's just one game with an undefined future, but something like Final Fantasy has considerably more factors to consider in who you choose to represent the game and how.

My personal concern with ARMS is that Nintendo will want to push Spring Man and Ribbon Girl as their main characters no matter what despite being among the blandest characters in the game, and that Nintendo push would supersede any popularity. My ideal scenario is to have Twintelle become the face in ARMS continues since it is just the one entry. But Spring Man and Ribbon Girl are the super straightforward male and female type characters Nintendo would probably like to bank on. Twintelle might make some sense at this point as a Spirit upgrade if they decide to include ARMS though. But we have seen the popularity angle play out in regards to Banjo & Kazooie being picked over a more "suitable" Microsoft rep.

And again, I have to emphasize the idea that Sakurai isn't some inherently unpredictable dude. He has a lot of fairly obvious "tell" at this point that are well documented through his interviews and decisions in prior Smash rosters that shows his process. Lots of the "fan rules" throughout the years were heavily based on different ideas of conjecture and without consideration to other elements in actual play. But I think we're getting to a point where it's going to be extremely difficult for Sakurai to actually surprise us with how much is both simultaneously on the field and has also been discussed. His guidelines of "video game characters and appeared on Nintendo (no matter how minor)" are obviously the hardest rules he adheres to, but he's quite predictable when it comes to representing new series. The only surprise I could see there would be like Resident Evil where you've got a few different options or other games with rotating cast members that share similar status like Lloyd and Yuri of the Tales brand.
The thing is, no one has to argue in favor of perceived guidelines. When people propose characters for representation, they want to keep things in the spirit of Smash as closely as possible while opposing any restrictions that prevent diversity from happening. If you don't like an idea, you don't support it. No one needs to be told how unlikely a characters is, because it doesn't change whether or not they think a character should be playable. Any of these characters can be "justified" in some way.
 
Aug 12, 2019
5,159
The thing is, no one has to argue in favor of perceived guidelines. When people propose characters for representation, they want to keep things in the spirit of Smash as closely as possible while opposing any restrictions that prevent diversity from happening. If you don't like an idea, you don't support it. No one needs to be told how unlikely a characters is, because it doesn't change whether or not they think a character should be playable. Any of these characters can be "justified" in some way.

I'm going to argue in favor of perceived guidelines because I think there's plenty to still be done in the framework of those guidelines that can at least help improve the gender situation. I'm not a fan, nor will I ever be, of shifting Smash's focus from a major crossover. I believe in Smash having a more diverse roster, but not at the cost of its identity. Hence the shortlist I emphasize as a great way to achieve some of the goals of diversifying the roster while also adhering to Sakurai's overall guidelines and approach to Smash. I don't think there's too many restrictions that prevent diversity from happening, and I'm not sure with the ones people perceive removed, we'd even see many of these characters. Like, removing the main character restriction doesn't really make ARMS any more likely of an addition at this point.

And no, saying a character is less likely doesn't change someone's desire for the character, but it's a legitimate part of discussion too. Especially when people begin to ask, "why is character X and Y not playable, but Z is." And I'm not sure I agree with the notion you can justify any character outside of actively resurrecting series/making characters actively relevant to their series again, or just outright ignoring which characters are more popular.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
Okkkkkkk ... so I'm reading up on this thread and people are trying to say Chun-Li shouldn't/ can't get in because of some "NO 2 UNIQUE move-sets from the same series for a 3rd party" rule?

lol, WUT!?!?
Chun-Li is the legit QUEEN of fighting games.
No one's gonna cry if they put in Chun-Li, Lara Croft and/ or Tracer. These are 3 undoubtedly viable picks for famous 3rd party women in gaming.

(I personally hope the next passes arent non-stop 3rd party characters... put those are 3 reasonable picks all the same)
It's less a rule and more I simply don't want them to make more then two unique fighters from the same third party series. There are to many Capcom series I'd rather see before giving Street Fighter another character Chun-li or no.

Even if you only looking at it as getting a new female fighter I'd rather Morrigan or even Jill.
 

Deleted member 2669

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,044
I'm going to argue in favor of perceived guidelines because I think there's plenty to still be done in the framework of those guidelines that can at least help improve the gender situation. I'm not a fan, nor will I ever be, of shifting Smash's focus from a major crossover. I believe in Smash having a more diverse roster, but not at the cost of its identity. Hence the shortlist I emphasize as a great way to achieve some of the goals of diversifying the roster while also adhering to Sakurai's overall guidelines and approach to Smash. I don't think there's too many restrictions that prevent diversity from happening, and I'm not sure with the ones people perceive removed, we'd even see many of these characters. Like, removing the main character restriction doesn't really make ARMS any more likely of an addition at this point.

And no, saying a character is less likely doesn't change someone's desire for the character, but it's a legitimate part of discussion too. Especially when people begin to ask, "why is character X and Y not playable, but Z is." And I'm not sure I agree with the notion you can justify any character outside of actively resurrecting series/making characters actively relevant to their series again, or just outright ignoring which characters are more popular.
I think the framework you went over earlier went overboard, as it excluded PoC almost entirely. You didn't even allow room for more Zelda, Punch Out, or Wario characters. That's not even "protagonists first" at that point.
 
Aug 12, 2019
5,159
I think the framework you went over earlier went overboard, as it excluded PoC almost entirely. You didn't even allow room for more Zelda, Punch Out, or Wario characters. That's not even "protagonists first" at that point.

That's emblematic of the industry unfortunately. Shantae's basically one of the only choices that even comes to mind as one that fits in Smash, and she has to fight the Indie distinction to get there. I'm also not sure the excessive stereotypes of Punch-Out are what we want regarding additions in many cases just to address the Punch-Out point.

And to be fair, I absolutely expect little to no first party additions moving forward in Ultimate's DLC. The only ones I expect will be fan demanded ones that aren't in a substantial role elsewhere in the game, so like Bandanna Dee or Rex/Pyra, and even then I expect them to be the minority compared to continued focus on new series being added. Unfortunately, the one Nintendo PoC with maybe a decent shot in Elma gets upstaged hard by Rex/Pyra. And ARMS has a decent character... that is also buried under ARMS probably not getting anything additional in Ultimate unless Twintelle really just takes off enough to motivate Nintendo to include her.

There's very little in the ways of options for PoC no matter how you slice it given how reluctant the game industry has been to embrace them in major titles, especially regarding protagonists (and many of them are not exactly the ideal characters you'd want for representation). There's less excuse for Smash's lack of female characters, but the gaming industry has done an almost excessively poorer job at representing people of color with meaningful and well developed/designed characters.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
It's less a rule and more I simply don't want them to make more then two unique fighters from the same third party series. There are to many Capcom series I'd rather see before giving Street Fighter another character Chun-li or no.

Even if you only looking at it as getting a new female fighter I'd rather Morrigan or even Jill.

Morrigan and Jill would be fine, but they wouldn't serve as a replacement for Chun-Li, who gets in for more than just being a Street Fighter character or a female character, but straight up the Queen of Fighters, basically.
 

Deleted member 2669

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,044
That's emblematic of the industry unfortunately. Shantae's basically one of the only choices that even comes to mind as one that fits in Smash, and she has to fight the Indie distinction to get there. I'm also not sure the excessive stereotypes of Punch-Out are what we want regarding additions in many cases just to address the Punch-Out point.

And to be fair, I absolutely expect little to no first party additions moving forward in Ultimate's DLC. The only ones I expect will be fan demanded ones that aren't in a substantial role elsewhere in the game, so like Bandanna Dee or Rex/Pyra, and even then I expect them to be the minority compared to continued focus on new series being added. Unfortunately, the one Nintendo PoC with maybe a decent shot in Elma gets upstaged hard by Rex/Pyra. And ARMS has a decent character... that is also buried under ARMS probably not getting anything additional in Ultimate unless Twintelle really just takes off enough to motivate Nintendo to include her.

There's very little in the ways of options for PoC no matter how you slice it given how reluctant the game industry has been to embrace them in major titles, especially regarding protagonists (and many of them are not exactly the ideal characters you'd want for representation). There's less excuse for Smash's lack of female characters, but the gaming industry has done an almost excessively poorer job at representing people of color with meaningful and well developed/designed characters.
Can we agree on Claude at least?
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
Morrigan and Jill would be fine, but they wouldn't serve as a replacement for Chun-Li, who gets in for more than just being a Street Fighter character or a female character, but straight up the Queen of Fighters, basically.
I'm not a Street Fighter fan and even if I was I still would rather new franchises get in first. I simply prefer getting potential new characters. I say this as someone who would be ecstatic if Zero got in.
 
Aug 12, 2019
5,159
Byleth as Pokemon Trainer is the perfect compromise

we get three gays and a straight

It's way too much work to have another Pokemon Trainer type fighter. You'd have to sell them at like $15 and they'd be the only fighter that would come out for like 8 months.

Does technically work as a compromise to get more representation in though!
 
Aug 12, 2019
5,159
Hey, Edelgard is my favorite too! It's either her or Claude. Or all of them.

Edelgard has the most interesting story to me by far and I like morally grey characters (I haven't actually played through all of Three Houses yet though). I'm not really sure how the characters have done in popularity post launch of Three Houses, but I do know Edelgard took the early lead and is still my personal pick if we get a Three Houses rep. Then Claude. Then Dmitri. Then Byleth because I don't want a third Fire Emblem avatar leader... but I'm kind of bracing for them as a DLC pick (Three Houses and Astral Chain have probably the best shot at getting reps from brand new first party stuff IMO).
 
Aug 12, 2019
5,159
true, but 3H was also huge so it could totes justify it

If you want to be the one to tell the Smash fan base they're only going to get one DLC fighter all of next year and it will be a combination of three Fire Emblem fighters, be my guest.

I'll be arranging your memorial in the mean time since the ravenous hounds of Smash will utterly consume you.

Fuck it though, half the time I'm down for watching this fan base burn anyway (it's a big reason why I'm such a cynical speculator at times out of some amount of spite, so, sorry about that earlier) and I've got no issue with Three Houses in Smash. Let's light this match and see what happens.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
If you want to be the one to tell the Smash fan base they're only going to get one DLC fighter all of next year and it will be a combination of three Fire Emblem fighters, be my guest.

I'll be arranging your memorial in the mean time since the ravenous hounds of Smash will utterly consume you.

Fuck it though, half the time I'm down for watching this fan base burn anyway (it's a big reason why I'm such a cynical speculator at times out of some amount of spite, so, sorry about that earlier) and I've got no issue with Three Houses in Smash. Let's light this match and see what happens.

oh i don't give a shit about the fanbase, that Piranha Plant caused such strife was fun for me.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,163
The thing is, no one has to argue in favor of perceived guidelines. When people propose characters for representation, they want to keep things in the spirit of Smash as closely as possible while opposing any restrictions that prevent diversity from happening. If you don't like an idea, you don't support it. No one needs to be told how unlikely a characters is, because it doesn't change whether or not they think a character should be playable. Any of these characters can be "justified" in some way.

Isn't this a discussion though? Like it wouldn't be much of a discussion if people said "I want this character," "I want that character," and that was all it was. I don't think many people are saying you shouldn't want Twintelle, just that it's unlikely. That shouldn't faze Twintelle fans or make them feel bad. If someone told me Velvet Crowe was unlikely and she'd never get picked over Lloyd or Yuri, I'd tell them that they're right. Nobody should be bashing anyone for supporting a character of course, but I don't see the problem with saying "well, I think the character is unlikely, and here's why." This wouldn't be much of a thread if everyone just said "yep, we need more diversity, let's put these characters in." It's a discussion.

There are some things I feel are pretty unrealistic and gratuitous, like a 3-in-1 Pokemon Trainer style character for Three Houses, but I would only frame that in the discussion of likelihood, not whether or not someone should support it. People still want Goku after Sakurai saying 300 times he will only put in video game characters. I'm not the thought police, lol.

Personally speaking, I'm fine with Smash's focus on major characters from their series. I don't see it changing anytime soon, and I understand why Sakurai does it the way he does. I think we can all agree Ultimate needs more female newcomers and there are options. Dark skinned characters is a much trickier matter (imo the best candidate on the Japanese third party side, Kat, is a Sony character, so...), which is really reflective of a very conservative industry resistant to change because of fear of alienating their core base. Change is slow. There's no way around that. I've made peace with that. Heck, how long do you think it took for me to get K. Rool into Smash? This doesn't happen overnight.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
Edelgard has the most interesting story to me by far and I like morally grey characters (I haven't actually played through all of Three Houses yet though). I'm not really sure how the characters have done in popularity post launch of Three Houses, but I do know Edelgard took the early lead and is still my personal pick if we get a Three Houses rep. Then Claude. Then Dmitri. Then Byleth because I don't want a third Fire Emblem avatar leader... but I'm kind of bracing for them as a DLC pick (Three Houses and Astral Chain have probably the best shot at getting reps from brand new first party stuff IMO).
Most recent poll had Edelgard in fourth behind Dmitri, Claude, and Female Byleth.
 
Aug 12, 2019
5,159
oh i don't give a shit about the fanbase, that Piranha Plant caused such strife was fun for me.

I probably shouldn't either at this point. I was deep into it during the Smash 4 days as a fan of Ridley/King K. Rool/Mewtwo (the most stereotypical Smash fan picks you could have, nothing wrong with them, but it's just like the essential Smash fan lineup of that period). But the more I've seen of it, the less I like. That's why I separate my speculation and discussion so heavily because I feel like they're entirely different subjects that allow me to approach things in different ways as opposed to others who just absolutely decide to eviscerate the character instead of actually talking about the character's chances (though I admit, I occasionally can still be harsher than I mean to about the character when I'm struggling to see what others see). Geno is still my most wanted at this point (and that's partially sunk cost, partially I love Super Mario RPG), but I have to acknowledge his numerous issues with inclusion and don't let myself buy into him as some sort of "lock" or whatever. I'm so harsh against the characters I support I often don't quite realize how harsh I can be against others I'm less invested in sometimes.

Most recent poll had Edelgard in fourth behind Dmitri, Claude, and Female Byleth.

Boooooooo.... That's a damn shame.
 

MoonToon

Banned
Nov 9, 2018
2,029
It's less that she can't, and more that going deeper into existing third parties doesn't bring as much to the game as newer fighters (and we already got a Ken who straddles the line as a unique fighter). There's little wrong with Chun-Li, but again she doesn't pull in a new audience since Street Fighter fans are already here for Smash about as much as they will be and she doesn't contribute to the expanding nature of Smash as a new third party.
... Wut?

You're worried about "expanding" the player base of smash with new comers from 3rd parties and as such there's no point to bringing in iconic characters from series that are already in? Is this Sakurai's logic? He said this somewhere?

(I don't want to keep shitting on Terry but I'm 100% sure more people would have been hyped for a Chun-Li reveal. It's telling that it seems that the reveal of Sans over-shadowed him so fully outside of a few SNK fans. Even most people here don't seem to care enough to be hyped about him in these smash talks)


As for people talking about ARMs .. I really wish people would stop trying to down play it's success.

Here's a PSA ...

Smash fans, it's easy to forget this seeing as you're playing the biggest fighting game of all time X infinity + 1 but ... "fighting games" are NOT in a great spot. They haven't been for a long time now. Outside of a few on going series it's considered a dead genre by many. Outside of games that co-op other IPs (Pokken, JF and DBF) I can't really think of new big fighter IPs outside of the (Indie) game SkullGirls and ARMs.
ARMs releasing as a new, unique fighting game on an unproven console and getting 2mill + is DAMN good for even a normal game ... REALLY DAMN good for a brand new fighter with no established IP to lean on with it's cast. That's better numbers than recent SC games (And some recent Tekkens if not close IIRC). That's higher than KI Uprising (you know, that game that had all the advertising and hype force of Smash and Sakurai behind it, releasing on a massively larger base? Yeah, that got to like 1.3-1.5 mil iirc)

I will never understand people's desire to down play it's success.


This is part of why some people are excited for Riot to release their fighting game. Riot makes big simple-yet-deep F2P online fighter, it's assumed it will be a HIT because Riot, other companies look to capitalize on that and now we have more companies trying to make fighting games. It's the dream for fans of these kinda games to get more companies taking a whack at making unique fun fighters.
 

Quacktion

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,479
Impa needs to be on the roster, like, yesterday. Make her an amalgam of her different appearances just like Link was in previous games: OOT design with SS skin and HW-inspired moveset (or Sheik echo but that cant be DLC as per Sakurai). Bam slam thank you ma'm. Or hell new design from the ground up like Pit in Brawl, taking from ALL appearances. Just gimme more of that Zeld.
 

Daysean

Member
Nov 15, 2017
7,392
(I don't want to keep shitting on Terry but I'm 100% sure more people would have been hyped for a Chun-Li reveal. It's telling that it seems that the reveal of Sans over-shadowed him so fully outside of a few SNK fans. Even most people here don't seem to care enough to be hyped about him in these smash talks)

Not to point out something specific because i agree with your other points, but people who play smash don't even know characters from within the game, i know so many people who was just ??????? at Hero, or Joker or Richter or Shulk or Bayonetta. Sans would've literally over shadowed any one, even as a mii costume its FUCKING SANS
 

Deleted member 2669

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,044
If you want to be the one to tell the Smash fan base they're only going to get one DLC fighter all of next year and it will be a combination of three Fire Emblem fighters, be my guest.

I'll be arranging your memorial in the mean time since the ravenous hounds of Smash will utterly consume you.

Fuck it though, half the time I'm down for watching this fan base burn anyway (it's a big reason why I'm such a cynical speculator at times out of some amount of spite, so, sorry about that earlier) and I've got no issue with Three Houses in Smash. Let's light this match and see what happens.
This took a fun turn!

Isn't this a discussion though? Like it wouldn't be much of a discussion if people said "I want this character," "I want that character," and that was all it was.
That sounds like arguing for the sake of arguing. It always devolves into "it won't happen, end of story" which is far less productive. Not to mention the hostility from people saying that others' unlikely wishes are "absurd" regardless of whether those proposals are even speculative. Discussing probability makes sense here, but the topic can always be applied better, even when it's not about representation (no one likes to talk about KOS-MOS). Not every Smash discussion calls for speculation anyway.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,163
Not to point out something specific because i agree with your other points, but people who play smash don't even know characters from within the game, i know so many people who was just ??????? at Hero, or Joker or Richter or Shulk or Bayonetta. Sans would've literally over shadowed any one, even as a mii costume its FUCKING SANS

I can agree with this. I was legit shocked at how some people honestly had no idea who Joker was (not here where Persona is quite popular, on other sites). It really opened my eyes at how insular Smash fandom can be. Terry was of course going to be a complete blindside if Joker, the protagonist of one of the most popular JRPGs this gen, was an unknown to some of these people.
 

Sander VF

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
25,956
Tbilisi, Georgia
I can agree with this. I was legit shocked at how some people honestly had no idea who Joker was (not here where Persona is quite popular, on other sites). It really opened my eyes at how insular Smash fandom can be. Terry was of course going to be a complete blindside if Joker, the protagonist of one of the most popular JRPGs this gen, was an unknown to some of these people.
Even with Simon Belmont it felt like a good chunk of the people reacting to that Direct were only aware of him because Vergeben leaked him or something.

And of course finding people who knew Richter Belmont was a tall order.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,163
Even with Simon Belmont it felt like a good chunk of the people reacting to that Direct were only aware of him because Vergeben leaked him or something.

And of course finding people who knew Richter Belmont was a tall order.

Even Sakurai said he anticipated a lot of people wouldn't know who Richter was but hoped they took the chance to learn about him.

Simon and Richter. New whip physics. Dracula's Castle and a whole host of boss characters. Count Dracula himself–complete with two forms. Alucard. Not to mention 34 music tracks. Even the trailer, made expressly for the purpose of introducing a new character, required a considerable amount of time and energy to create. A lot of people are probably wondering, "Who's Richter?" I hope they'll enjoy getting to know him through Ultimate.


Kind of funny considering Richter is in what is inarguably the most infamous scene in all of Castlevania ("what is a man?").
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
Weird. I always figured Richter would be one of the more well known Belmonts given his involvement with Symphony of the Night.
 

Sander VF

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
25,956
Tbilisi, Georgia
Kind of funny considering Richter is in what is inarguably the most infamous scene in all of Castlevania ("what is a man?").
Yeah, I thought people would at least recognize him from the meme, but no.

Also, I used to be under the impression that Smash fanbase was a Nintendo fanbase (duh) with a proclivity towards retro stuff. After all, they were asking for K. Rool, Ridley and Geno. But I seriously don't know anymore. I have no idea what kinds of games Smash fanbase at large is into.

Is there like a big zoomer-boomer intersection that is throwing me off or what?
 

Daysean

Member
Nov 15, 2017
7,392
Weird. I always figured Richter would be one of the more well known Belmonts given his involvement with Symphony of the Night.
I thought so too, but I know so many people who are like nintendo only or who have never touched a Castlevania game, it's insane
I know this only applies to the people I personally know, but i swear some people don't play OTHER games
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,163
Yeah, I thought people would at least recognize him from the meme, but no.

Also, I used to be under the impression that Smash fanbase was a Nintendo fanbase (duh) with a proclivity towards retro stuff. After all, they were asking for K. Rool, Ridley and Geno. But I seriously don't know anymore. I have no idea what kinds of games Smash fanbase at large is into.

Is there like a big zoomer-boomer intersection that is throwing me off or what?

Well, Richter's most famous games aren't on Nintendo consoles, Rondo Of Blood and Symphony Of The Night. I'd definitely say Simon Belmont and Castlevania were well known to Nintendo fans 20 and up (the kind to post on forums and stuff anyway) given the history on Nintendo consoles. It's the same with characters like Mega Man. Characters like Joker and Terry are not obscure but they haven't reached the megaton status of characters like Cloud or Snake, so the lack of prominent Nintendo history means the average Nintendo fan is probably less likely to recognize them (especially younger ones in Terry's case).

fwiw I think I read somewhere that the biggest age demographic for Switch is 16-34.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,337
Houston, TX
Impa needs to be on the roster, like, yesterday. Make her an amalgam of her different appearances just like Link was in previous games: OOT design with SS skin and HW-inspired moveset (or Sheik echo but that cant be DLC as per Sakurai). Bam slam thank you ma'm. Or hell new design from the ground up like Pit in Brawl, taking from ALL appearances. Just gimme more of that Zeld.
Wouldn't the Skyward Sword design make more sense as the default since we already have two OoT characters? Plus you'd represent a different Zelda game.
 

KtotheRoc

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
56,638
Wouldn't the Skyward Sword design make more sense as the default since we already have two OoT characters? Plus you'd represent a different Zelda game.

Would it? SS is one of the worst selling Zelda games. And it is no longer the most recent major title.

It doesn't seem like a game Nintendo would go out of its way to reference. If Impa were to be added (far from guaranteed), I'd think they'd just lean in on the OoT design.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,337
Houston, TX
Would it? SS is one of the worst selling Zelda games. And it is no longer the most recent major title.

It doesn't seem like a game Nintendo would go out of its way to reference. If Impa were to be added (far from guaranteed), I'd think they'd just lean in on the OoT design.
It's still a mainline Zelda game, & OoT is already represented plenty (Young Link, Ganondorf, I guess Sheik even though her design is BotW, Ganon boss). Plus her SS design is the fan-favorite outside of Hyrule Warriors (which, again, Smash is currently ignoring), a game that's already inspired by Impa's physique from Skyward Sword.