Super Smash Bros Ultimate has 19 white male characters (6 of which are blue eyed / blonde hair), and 0 women of color

KtotheRoc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,990
It’s still a mainline Zelda game, & OoT is already represented plenty (Young Link, Ganondorf, I guess Sheik even though her design is BotW, Ganon boss). Plus her SS design is the fan-favorite outside of Hyrule Warriors (which, again, Smash is currently ignoring), a game that’s already inspired by Impa’s physique from Skyward Sword.
Smash 4 had a SS Impa trophy and an OoT trophy. Impa's Spirit in Ultimate is only from OoT. I don't know if that means anything specifically, but it is what it is.

I'm not expecting any more first party DLC, and who knows what the Zelda franchise will look like when the next Smash eventually enters development. We could have an all-new Impa for Nintendo to use by that point.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,244
The Netherlands
I think Smash does its best with what diversity is available while still trying to have characters that are all-stars in the gaming world., which is what's most important for this kind of crossover game.

I'm gay and I really don't want a pity slot for a character just because he's gay, in fact, I'd find it kind of offensive.

I also don't think all of these human characters are supposed to be white, a lot of them just look like Japanese anime characters. It's the Goku thing where Westerners see him as white, and Asians see him as Asian or Japanese. I don't think Sakurai sees all of these characters as white.
 

IntelliHeath

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,004
I'd be happy to see it, and I could see there being a justification for why Sakurai would - because none of the Ultimate cast is from a Switch game. Trying to think what Switch characters would be good...

ARMS
Xenoblade Chronicles 2
Splatoon 2
Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle
Fire Emblem: Three Houses
Astral Chain
Snipperclips
Ayumi Tachibana (SHE'S FUCKING RELEVANT AGAIN HOLY SHIT JAY LOCALIZE IT SAKURAI)

'Course, there are some third-party Switch games I'd like to see repped.

Octopath Traveler
Celeste (I can wish can't I? gotta get my trans representation baybee)
Cadence of Hyrule
I don't know why I didn't get pinged for this post? I presume that you edited it in right?

Yeah, I would love to see a character that could represents the franchise or themselves that made debuts on Nintendo Switch. I know it's something but in my mentality, I'm more engaging to see more new franchises and more third party collaborations since I do find them more exciting because I want to question myself, who would be next franchise to get included in Smash Bros, and who would get smash invitational letter next. But I wouldn't have any issues if we get a character from pre-existing franchise to represents Switch Era.
 

Neo0mj

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,727
Why do so many members here mention Elma as an example of person of color? When people say person of color they mean actual human beings, not some magical blue skinned purple eyed alien who thinks she's black on the inside like some sort of anime Rachel Dolezal.



It's like a worse Psylocke from X-Men. I know we want representation but honestly she doesn't come of as the best example because that part of her history will always tail her. If you want her that's fine but don't say it's to increase race diversity.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
10,695
Why do so many members here mention Elma as an example of person of color? When people say person of color they mean actual human beings, not some magical blue skinned purple eyed alien who thinks she's black on the inside like some sort of anime Rachel Dolezal.



It's like a worse Psylocke from X-Men. I know we want representation but honestly she doesn't come of as the best example because that part of her history will always tail her. If you want her that's fine but don't say it's to increase race diversity.
Beggars can’t be choosers. In the context of Smash she would be a dark skinned woman at all times. Don’t see an issue with that.
 

Neoxon

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,823
Houston, TX
Beggars can’t be choosers. In the context of Smash she would be a dark skinned woman at all times. Don’t see an issue with that.
This, though I did also mention that her case was debatable within the context of XBX's story. But considering that (if my memory serves me correct) everyone has true forms like that, I'll take what I can get.
 

Moltres006

Member
Jan 5, 2019
1,288
User Banned (1 Week) - Dismissing concerns about representation and diversity
And if all the remaining dlc characters are white males, are we going to have the exact same threads for the next 6 years or will you just give up, drop the game for good and play/talk about other games?
 

Neoxon

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,823
Houston, TX
And if all the remaining dlc characters are white males, are we going to have the exact same threads for the next 6 years or will you just give up, drop the game for good and play/talk about other games?
We continue to raise the concern. Even outside of Era, more people are starting to realize the lack of women in Smash, especially in Ultimate's DLC. You could argue that there aren't that many people of color to choose from, but that's definitely not the case regarding potential primarily-female characters.

Smash 4 had a SS Impa trophy and an OoT trophy. Impa's Spirit in Ultimate is only from OoT. I don't know if that means anything specifically, but it is what it is.

I'm not expecting any more first party DLC, and who knows what the Zelda franchise will look like when the next Smash eventually enters development. We could have an all-new Impa for Nintendo to use by that point.
You say that as though Nintendo's trying to bury Skyward Sword, which I'm not sure is the case.
 

Deguello

Member
Jan 14, 2019
135
Why do so many members here mention Elma as an example of person of color? When people say person of color they mean actual human beings, not some magical blue skinned purple eyed alien who thinks she's black on the inside like some sort of anime Rachel Dolezal.


It's like a worse Psylocke from X-Men. I know we want representation but honestly she doesn't come of as the best example because that part of her history will always tail her. If you want her that's fine but don't say it's to increase race diversity.
This, though I did also mention that her case was debatable within the context of XBX's story. But considering that (if my memory serves me correct) everyone has true forms like that, I'll take what I can get.

The context of this story (which I'm pretty surprised needs to be said considering how badly she seems to be wanted here and how iconic she is being said she would be. What, nobody knows?) is that Elma is indeed a greenish alien piloting a human-ish robot (like everybody else in the game) and this was a disguise so that she would blend into humanity to better help them fight their mutual enemies, despite humanity's distrust of aliens in general (not unearned, Earth is blown up after all). You're supposed to sorta cotton on to her being "other" in the sense that she's darkly tanned/darkly skinned and has silvery-white hair, and isn't a senior citizen. Most of the other characters look more or less possible/plausible at a distance, and the ones that don't are obviously aliens like L and Celica.You can also detect this is the case in the fact you can initially make yourself look really wacky and not plausible, as you can always change it later.

In canon, she's not pretending to be black so she can be closer to the black culture she identifies with like is the unfortunate case with Ms. Dolezal. She most likely didn't think much about it and picked something at random, like you can choose to initially. However, when she makes cameos in other games, she looks like her darker skinned, silver-haired self, likely for story spoiler reasons.
 
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Clefargle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,835
Limburg
Why do so many members here mention Elma as an example of person of color? When people say person of color they mean actual human beings, not some magical blue skinned purple eyed alien who thinks she's black on the inside like some sort of anime Rachel Dolezal.



It's like a worse Psylocke from X-Men. I know we want representation but honestly she doesn't come of as the best example because that part of her history will always tail her. If you want her that's fine but don't say it's to increase race diversity.
I want Elma and I think shed increase representation on the roster. You know that they aren’t going to use her final form. They’re gonna use her original design. I find her final form unfortunate, but it doesn’t detract from good representation imo.
 

Sander VF

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
9,029
Tbilisi, Georgia
Why do so many members here mention Elma as an example of person of color? When people say person of color they mean actual human beings, not some magical blue skinned purple eyed alien who thinks she's black on the inside like some sort of anime Rachel Dolezal.



It's like a worse Psylocke from X-Men. I know we want representation but honestly she doesn't come of as the best example because that part of her history will always tail her. If you want her that's fine but don't say it's to increase race diversity.
Wait, so does that mean that Allen Strange fro Nickolodeon's Journey of Allen Strange doesn't count as a black character?

He was also an alien who took human form and who's real form was a blue alien

I always kind of thought that characters who happen to have inhuman true forms, but have default human alter egoes would count as representations of whatever race/ethnicity their default human form is, but maybe not lol.
 

RagnarokX

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,538
Why do so many members here mention Elma as an example of person of color? When people say person of color they mean actual human beings, not some magical blue skinned purple eyed alien who thinks she's black on the inside like some sort of anime Rachel Dolezal.



It's like a worse Psylocke from X-Men. I know we want representation but honestly she doesn't come of as the best example because that part of her history will always tail her. If you want her that's fine but don't say it's to increase race diversity.
She's actually whiter than white. She's blue there cuz of lighting. https://external-preview.redd.it/WqXmZHXIkl3L4Zh3kE6EdE9Dxs4ZzqWHfqLUrjnptpQ.jpg?auto=webp&s=f2a92d1b78963df1177fd57207674b84e98fc3d3

I dunno, it feels weird when she's only pretending to be a human with darker skin.

Oddly enough, Monolith has another character that is the exact opposite: a woman of color who spends most of the game with white skin:


They could have KOS-MOS and T-elos share a character slot.

This, though I did also mention that her case was debatable within the context of XBX's story. But considering that (if my memory serves me correct) everyone has true forms like that, I'll take what I can get.
You can be anything you want in X, including unnatural skin colors

But it seems your avatar and Elma are the only ones that engage in this and everyone else choses bodies that match their real bodies. Everyone else is human. Elma does it to fit in and avoid panic, and there are theories that
your avatar doesn't have a real body and was created by the force behind the planet to interact with the humans.

------------

I don't feel Urbosa is a good pick. The Champions are such disappointments compared to characters from previous games. Comparing them to Midna and Impa is a bit off because Midna is the deuteragonist of Twilight Princess and Impa is a recurring character similar to Link and Zelda, with far more importance in multiple games than the Champions, whereas the Champions barely appear in BotW and don't make much of an impact. Hell, Nabooru had more of a role in OoT, and Twinrova has also made multiple appearances. Impa would make the most sense as another Zelda pick; personally I'd prefer Impa replace Sheik since Sheik is locked to OoT and it's so weird having non-OoT Zeldas turn into Sheik.

Toon Zelda with a full Phantom moveset would be great.

Octoling would make a good Inkling echo, and the default should be dark skinned and female like default Agent 8.

If they added an ARMS character I'd imagine they'd pick Twintelle because nobody wants Spring Man.

It's a shame Code Name STEAM didn't take off because not only is it a great game, it also features a diverse cast with rare actually human people of color.

You got John Henry, Tiger Lily from Peter Pan, Quequeg from Moby Dick, female Zorro, and Queen Califia of California. Though it might be weird having characters from American literature in Smash. The most interesting for Smash would probably be Abraham Lincoln or Randolph Carter, though (who wouldn't want him summoning Cthulhu for a Final Smash?)

Speaking of Abraham Lincoln, imagine if The Conduit had been popular.


If they added anyone else from Punch Out they'd probably go with Doc Louis or Mr Sandman.

Morrigan from Darkstalkers would make a great pick.
 

Neoxon

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,823
Houston, TX
She's actually whiter than white. She's blue there cuz of lighting. https://external-preview.redd.it/WqXmZHXIkl3L4Zh3kE6EdE9Dxs4ZzqWHfqLUrjnptpQ.jpg?auto=webp&s=f2a92d1b78963df1177fd57207674b84e98fc3d3

I dunno, it feels weird when she's only pretending to be a human with darker skin.

Oddly enough, Monolith has another character that is the exact opposite: a woman of color who spends most of the game with white skin:


They could have KOS-MOS and T-elos share a character slot.


You can be anything you want in X, including unnatural skin colors

But it seems your avatar and Elma are the only ones that engage in this and everyone else choses bodies that match their real bodies. Everyone else is human. Elma does it to fit in and avoid panic, and there are theories that
your avatar doesn't have a real body and was created by the force behind the planet to interact with the humans.

------------

I don't feel Urbosa is a good pick. The Champions are such disappointments compared to characters from previous games. Comparing them to Midna and Impa is a bit off because Midna is the deuteragonist of Twilight Princess and Impa is a recurring character similar to Link and Zelda, with far more importance in multiple games than the Champions, whereas the Champions barely appear in BotW and don't make much of an impact. Hell, Nabooru had more of a role in OoT, and Twinrova has also made multiple appearances. Impa would make the most sense as another Zelda pick; personally I'd prefer Impa replace Sheik since Sheik is locked to OoT and it's so weird having non-OoT Zeldas turn into Sheik.

Toon Zelda with a full Phantom moveset would be great.

Octoling would make a good Inkling echo, and the default should be dark skinned and female like default Agent 8.

If they added an ARMS character I'd imagine they'd pick Twintelle because nobody wants Spring Man.

It's a shame Code Name STEAM didn't take off because not only is it a great game, it also features a diverse cast with rare actually human people of color.

You got John Henry, Tiger Lily from Peter Pan, Quequeg from Moby Dick, female Zorro, and Queen Califia of California. Though it might be weird having characters from American literature in Smash. The most interesting for Smash would probably be Abraham Lincoln or Randolph Carter, though (who wouldn't want him summoning Cthulhu for a Final Smash?)

Speaking of Abraham Lincoln, imagine if The Conduit had been popular.


If they added anyone else from Punch Out they'd probably go with Doc Louis or Mr Sandman.

Morrigan from Darkstalkers would make a great pick.
To be fair to Spring Man, he isn't that hated. But either way, Sakurai's poster child first mentality would probably have him prioritize Spring Man before Twintelle or anyone else, which is honestly part of problem & why the roster got to this point with regards to its lack of women & people of color (again, mostly the industry's fault, but Sakurai has been a bit too rigid about said logic). Good call on Octoling & Morrigan, though the latter would need a few design modifications to fit the E10+ rating (though it's nothing Sakurai couldn't pull off, as shown by Bayonetta & Female Corrin). As for Zelda, we did bring up Skyward Sword Impa & even Midna a few times in this thread.
 

Regulus Tera

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,362
Why do so many members here mention Elma as an example of person of color? When people say person of color they mean actual human beings, not some magical blue skinned purple eyed alien who thinks she's black on the inside like some sort of anime Rachel Dolezal.



It's like a worse Psylocke from X-Men. I know we want representation but honestly she doesn't come of as the best example because that part of her history will always tail her. If you want her that's fine but don't say it's to increase race diversity.
A lot of Smash fans haven't played the source material of the characters they rep.
 

IneptEMP

Member
Jan 14, 2019
258
Because she isn't the main character and they have no interest in putting in an ARMS fighter given the Spring-Man Assist Trophy.
Spring Man is an assist trophy likely because Smash was too far in development to include him as a character.

Same reason why there are no Splatoon 2 costumes for the Inklings, and why Xenoblade 2 only got a Mii costume and some spirits

There's no sign that they have no interest in including an ARMS character.
 

yuoke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,827
Spring Man is an assist trophy likely because Smash was too far in development to include him as a character.

Same reason why there are no Splatoon 2 costumes for the Inklings, and why Xenoblade 2 only got a Mii costume and some spirits

There's no sign that they have no interest in including an ARMS character.
Yea, but that's why at this point there won't be any more arms stuff added period.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
10,695
Spring Man is an assist trophy likely because Smash was too far in development to include him as a character.

Same reason why there are no Splatoon 2 costumes for the Inklings, and why Xenoblade 2 only got a Mii costume and some spirits

There's no sign that they have no interest in including an ARMS character.
If they were going to add an ARMS character to season 1, they wouldn’t have the Spring-Man AT. It doesn’t seem likely they will do anything for season 2 either since Smash DLC focuses on guest characters and the general lack of demand for ARMS in Smash.
 

TheDinoman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,937
I'd like for Spring Man to be playable, but yeah, he really doesn't feel like an enticing $5.99 DLC pick. He's a base roster kind of deal.

Honestly...that kind of goes for pretty much every Nintendo character, lol. They clearly want the DLC for these games to turn heads, hence the reliance on third party guests. Characters like Spring Man and Dixie don't feel as effective in that regard.
 
Oct 25, 2017
417
New York
I want a pack that is:

Chun Li (SF)
2B (Nier)
Sheva Alomar / Jill Valentine (RE)
Barret Wallace (FF7)
Rodin (Bayonetta)

All great characters from great games.
 

MrPressStart

Member
Oct 27, 2017
284
User Banned (3 Days): Dismissive Drive-By Posting.
It also has a plant. It's a fighting game made of cartoon characters for gods sake.
 

KtotheRoc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,990
You say that as though Nintendo's trying to bury Skyward Sword, which I'm not sure is the case.
It kinda is the case. I know people will point to Smash having a SS stage, or SS characters and elements in Hyrule Warriors, but beyond that, I'm not sure Nintendo's chomping at the bit to remind people about (what is probably) the worst selling mainline Zelda.

If they ever add Impa to Smash, I think it will either be OoT Impa, or a new Impa from a future Zelda title. At this point I don't think it makes sense to go back to SS for inspiration for Smash.
 

Spinluck

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
8,262
Florida
Why do so many members here mention Elma as an example of person of color? When people say person of color they mean actual human beings, not some magical blue skinned purple eyed alien who thinks she's black on the inside like some sort of anime Rachel Dolezal.



It's like a worse Psylocke from X-Men. I know we want representation but honestly she doesn't come of as the best example because that part of her history will always tail her. If you want her that's fine but don't say it's to increase race diversity.
Is this what she actually is? Wtf.

Still want her in the game though lol.
 

MoonToon

Member
Nov 9, 2018
514
If they were going to add an ARMS character to season 1, they wouldn’t have the Spring-Man AT. It doesn’t seem likely they will do anything for season 2 either since Smash DLC focuses on guest characters and the general lack of demand for ARMS in Smash.
I think it's silly to assume what Sakurai and Nintendo want in regards to DLC released years after the base game when their prime goal would be to get things in there when they can. We know that even characters he's been vocal about wanting to turn into fighters were "too late" because they also came out in 2017.

Also think it's silly to assume that they wouldn't want to make fighters out of characters from their only other fighting game series that also sold very well.

Crazy to me to think that of the newcomers added to smash this time people assume that (not counting echos) only ... 6 will be Nintendo characters and the other 11 (This FP and the next assuming it's 5) maybe even 16 (if you assume the datamined theory is sound) would be straight up 3rd party characters.
Part of me thinks that may be why he revealed the 2nd FP with Terry ... not cause people would be Meh AF about Terry but because people may look at the newcomers and be disappointed at the balance between 3rd parties and Nintendo characters.

But that's just me though.

Also people clearly want ARMs characters. IDK what that's about.
 
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Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
10,695
Crazy to me to think that of the newcomers added to smash this time people assume that (not counting echos) only ... 6 will be Nintendo characters and the other 11 (This FP and the next assuming it's 5) maybe even 16 (if you assume the datamined theory is sound) would be straight up 3rd party characters.
Why is that crazy? This is a chance to go nuts with the biggest crossover of all time and Sakurai clearly loves collaborating with other companies to bring in guest characters. They also generate more buzz and headlines than first party characters. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Piranha Plant is the last first party character. They can add more of those in the next Smash.

Also people clearly want ARMs characters. IDK what that's about.
I feel pretty confident saying there is far from enough visible demand on internet chatter to register to Nintendo and Sakurai.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,800
It kinda is the case. I know people will point to Smash having a SS stage, or SS characters and elements in Hyrule Warriors, but beyond that, I'm not sure Nintendo's chomping at the bit to remind people about (what is probably) the worst selling mainline Zelda.

If they ever add Impa to Smash, I think it will either be OoT Impa, or a new Impa from a future Zelda title. At this point I don't think it makes sense to go back to SS for inspiration for Smash.
The worse selling 3D zelda game is Majora's Mask tho
MM 3.36
SS 3.67
And tbh those whole thing about burying SS makes no sense to me. I dont see much evidence of it. heck SS Link is in Mario kart 8!
 

yuoke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,827
The worse selling 3D zelda game is Majora's Mask tho
MM 3.36
SS 3.67
And tbh those whole thing about burying SS makes no sense to me. I dont see much evidence of it. heck SS Link is in Mario kart 8!
That was the most recent link at the time, not counting albw, but that wouldn't work in mk. Kind of like how other m samus was used in smash 4 and ultimate.
 

yuoke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,827
I think it's silly to assume what Sakurai and Nintendo want in regards to DLC released years after the base game when their prime goal would be to get things in there when they can. We know that even characters he's been vocal about wanting to turn into fighters were "too late" because they also came out in 2017.

Also think it's silly to assume that they wouldn't want to make fighters out of characters from their only other fighting game series that also sold very well.

Crazy to me to think that of the newcomers added to smash this time people assume that (not counting echos) only ... 6 will be Nintendo characters and the other 11 (This FP and the next assuming it's 5) maybe even 16 (if you assume the datamined theory is sound) would be straight up 3rd party characters.
Part of me thinks that may be why he revealed the 2nd FP with Terry ... not cause people would be Meh AF about Terry but because people may look at the newcomers and be disappointed at the balance between 3rd parties and Nintendo characters.

But that's just me though.

Also people clearly want ARMs characters. IDK what that's about.
It's not really crazy. Having all mostly iconic 3rd party reps for dlc just makes more sense than adding dixie or waddle dee or whoever else. 3rd parties just bring way more hype.
 

MoonToon

Member
Nov 9, 2018
514
Why is that crazy? This is a chance to go nuts with the biggest crossover of all time and Sakurai clearly loves collaborating with other companies to bring in guest characters. They also generate more buzz and headlines than first party characters. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Piranha Plant is the last first party character. They can add more of those in the next Smash.
Wow, I don't agree with any of this.
Smash isn't just a big ass gaming cross-over, it's a celebration of Nintendo characters be them new or old. Sakurai knows this so I don't think he'd want to say fuck it and have such an unbalanced list of newcomers. Like, I don't like trying to read this guy's mind but it IS strange to me that he has more than once credited the fighters of this FP as being Nintendo's doing as Nintendo credits him.

The truth is prob in the middle, where Nintendo asked for this to be a 3rd party FP and he picked the 3rd party characters he liked and wanted people to know this aint his normal MO. Again, I think that's why he revealed more fighters are coming with the reveal of Terry.

Looking at the DLC for the game before this paints a very different picture.

Also, it's my belief that ANYTHING revealed as playable Smash content generates buzz for certain parts of the Nintendo fanbase so that's kind of a moot point.

I feel pretty confident saying there is far from enough visible demand on internet chatter to register to Nintendo and Sakurai.
I feel pretty confident in saying a successful new Nintendo fighting game for a new console that hits more than 2mill copies sold (which is apparently more than Rex's game as well as Shulks) that also has some amount of rep in Smash already has grabbed their attention.

It would be silly to judge anything based purely on smash talk with in the smash fandom RN.
 

NotLiquid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,828
Wow, I don't agree with any of this.
Smash isn't just a big ass gaming cross-over, it's a celebration of Nintendo characters be them new or old. Sakurai knows this so I don't think he'd want to say fuck it and have such an unbalanced list of newcomers. Like, I don't like trying to read this guy's mind but it IS strange to me that he has more than once credited the fighters of this FP as being Nintendo's doing as Nintendo credits him.

The truth is prob in the middle, where Nintendo asked for this to be a 3rd party FP and he picked the 3rd party characters he liked and wanted people to know this aint his normal MO. Again, I think that's why he revealed more fighters are coming with the reveal of Terry.

Looking at the DLC for the game before this paints a very different picture.

Also, it's my belief that ANYTHING revealed as playable Smash content generates buzz for certain parts of the Nintendo fanbase so that's kind of a moot point.
This is a strange conclusion to make considering at least three of the characters we've gotten so far (Hero, Joker and Terry) are from franchises and games that Sakurai have expressed adoration towards in the past and have been incredibly formative to Smash one way or another (P5's menus had a big influence on Ultimate's, a whole bunch of Smash's mechanics are taken from KoF and Fatal Fury, etc.)

Like, I don't think Sakurai is lying when he says Nintendo mainly tailored the picks for him, but to suggest there was some ulterior motive behind announcing another slate when Terry was confirmed is strange to me. The fact is, the dude gets to work on a whole slate of iconic franchises via Smash Bros and gets to expand the crossover aspect by staying on board, which by his own admission is why he's doing it.
 

IntelliHeath

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,004
Wow, I don't agree with any of this.
Smash isn't just a big ass gaming cross-over, it's a celebration of Nintendo characters be them new or old. Sakurai knows this so I don't think he'd want to say fuck it and have such an unbalanced list of newcomers. Like, I don't like trying to read this guy's mind but it IS strange to me that he has more than once credited the fighters of this FP as being Nintendo's doing as Nintendo credits him.
Yeah, but what if Nintendo and Sakurai agreed to add bunch of third parties then what? I meant Cloud and Ryu are more likely to outsold Lucas, Roy and Corrin pretty easily. I think Bayonetta comes third or fourth, along with Mewtwo.

That's probably when they realized that first party characters probably wouldn't sell very well comparing to third party characters but I'm not saying that we should count Nintendo characters out. I do have a feeling that there might be zilch to very few Nintendo characters this time since Sakurai said that he want to collaborate more with the companies and bring new worlds to Smash Bros. Then there is the award show where He emphasized on collaboration and desire to break the records of numbers of collaboration so it made me feel like there might not be much Nintendo characters. If we does get more Nintendo characters then I have a feeling that they might represents new franchises.

let me emphasize, I'm not counting Nintendo characters out just yet tho.

Also I want to point it out that Sakurai already dropped Nintendo All Stars material ever since Melee. Looks at this information. It does make sense since they were asked by Kojima and SEGA to introduce the characters in Melee but it was too late for them. It's not a coincidence that we ended up getting them in Brawl. So your comment about how Smash is Nintendo All Stars is kinda invalid but they does focus on Nintendo characters but not 100% anymore.

  • SFXNR_NINTENDOHALLSTAR

https://tcrf.net/images/c/cc/Ssbm_nintendohallstar.ogg
The announcer saying "Nintendo All-Star", part of the first game's Japanese name (Nintendo All-Star! Dairantō Smash Brothers). Note that the prefix "SFXNR" likely stands for "narrator." Not even in the Japanese version of the game is this used.
 
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MoonToon

Member
Nov 9, 2018
514
Down the list..
Last game our DLC was ...
Poll winner
Most popular FF character on that poll
Ryu who clearly would have done well on the poll
A slot for a new Nintendo character
3 returning fan favs


" After internal analysis, we decided that if we’re going to make DLC, we would choose a character from a soon-to-be-released new game. After consulting many times with Nintendo and looking at the upcoming release schedule, Fire Emblem Fates was in just the right spot. It’s already been released in Japan, but is yet to be released overseas, making it a prime candidate in terms of timing. I personally felt that having too many Fire Emblem characters was a problem, but after talking it over with the development staff and discussing logistics, I felt certain that I could make them a fun character. "
Famitsu ^^^

If he's as invested in this 3rd party only DLC narrative that people are thinking I don't think he would have gone outta his way to do this.
No part of me assumes all the DLC for smash is gonna be 3rd parties when that would mean they would have added more 3rd parties to the game than Nintendo characters by the end of all this.

This is a strange conclusion to make considering at least three of the characters we've gotten so far (Hero, Joker and Terry) are from franchises and games that Sakurai have expressed adoration towards in the past and have been incredibly formative to Smash one way or another (P5's menus had a big influence on Ultimate's, a whole bunch of Smash's mechanics are taken from KoF and Fatal Fury, etc.)

Like, I don't think Sakurai is lying when he says Nintendo mainly tailored the picks for him, but to suggest there was some ulterior motive behind announcing another slate when Terry was confirmed is strange to me. The fact is, the dude gets to work on a whole slate of iconic franchises via Smash Bros and gets to expand the crossover aspect by staying on board, which by his own admission is why he's doing it.
I don't think it's strange at all.
Clearly these are mostly personally appealing picks to him ... but for the first time every he's saying Nintendo had the say in this, that they picked these. He's said this like twice now. Nintendo kicks it back saying he picked these. Some of these are personal favs for Sakurai (Joker/ Terry/ prob Hero). Unless you think he's straight up bsing, truth prob sits in the middle. Nintendo asked for whatever and he picked things he likes.

Think that's the most reasonable non-tinfoil take. I could get MORE tinfoil than "He prob wants to keep people excited after revealing fuckin Terry" but it's not that big of a deal and that's a strange thing to get hung up on lol.

As of right now we don't know the nature of the next fighting pass or the theorized 3rd FP but it seems this one is straight up 3rd party characters and Sakurai keeps placing the reason on Nintendo.
 

KtotheRoc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,990
The worse selling 3D zelda game is Majora's Mask tho
MM 3.36
SS 3.67
And tbh those whole thing about burying SS makes no sense to me. I dont see much evidence of it. heck SS Link is in Mario kart 8!
MM's assets were created for OoT.

SS Link was the most recent Link at the time of MK 8. SS is not the most recent Zelda anymore.
 

MoonToon

Member
Nov 9, 2018
514
Yeah, but what if Nintendo and Sakurai agreed to add bunch of third parties then what? I meant Cloud and Ryu are more likely to outsold Lucas, Roy and Corrin pretty easily. I think Bayonetta comes third or fourth, along with Mewtwo.

That's probably when they realized that first party characters probably wouldn't sell very well comparing to third party characters but I'm not saying that we should count Nintendo characters out. I do have a feeling that there might be zilch to very few Nintendo characters this time since Sakurai said that he want to collaborate more with the companies and bring new worlds to Smash Bros. Then there is the award show where He emphasized on collaboration and desire to break the records of numbers of collaboration so it made me feel like there might not be much Nintendo characters. If we does get more Nintendo characters then I have a feeling that they might represents new franchises.

let me emphasize, I'm not counting Nintendo characters out just yet tho.

Also I want to point it out that Sakurai already dropped Nintendo All Stars material ever since Melee. Looks at this information. It does make sense since they were asked by Kojima and SEGA to introduce the characters in Melee but it was too late for them. It's not a coincidence that we ended up getting them in Brawl. So your comment about how Smash is Nintendo All Stars is kinda invalid but they does focus on Nintendo characters but not 100% anymore.
I'm sorry but I do not think they are worried about profits being smaller from non-3rd party DLC.
I don't think they're worried about your avr Smash fan NOT buying a new character because its a Nintendo character ... when they're already playing a Nintendo fighting game about different Nintendo characters.

Like, that's the whole point of the fighting pass. They gave people the option to blindly buy 5 new characters for slightly cheaper than buying them solo. By next fighting pass people will have paid like twice the price of the game for characters they have no clue will be added.

Smash is many things ... and one of those things is a vehicle for promotion. Sure, they can promo other companies but they can also promote their own IPs in these Fighter Passes.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
10,695
Most popular FF character on that poll
Cloud was never specifically said to be from the ballot, just that Final Fantasy was a popular request in general. Given that Cloud's first data appears 15 days into the ballot, and knowing that Square plays hardball for negotiations, it's extremely unlikely he was added because of it.

Ryu who clearly would have done well on the poll
Ryu was being worked before the ballot even started... not sure what point you're trying to make here. "Clearly would have done well" is a useless hypothetical and one that can't even be proven.
 

IntelliHeath

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,004
I'm sorry but I do not think they are worried about profits being smaller from non-3rd party DLC.
I don't think they're worried about your avr Smash fan NOT buying a new character because its a Nintendo character ... when they're already playing a Nintendo fighting game about different Nintendo characters.

Like, that's the whole point of the fighting pass. They gave people the option to blindly buy 5 new characters for slightly cheaper than buying them solo. By next fighting pass people will have paid like twice the price of the game for characters they have no clue will be added.

Smash is many things ... and one of those things is a vehicle for promotion. Sure, they can promo other companies but they can also promote their own IPs in these Fighter Passes.
I'm not talking about average smash fans. I'm not sure how did you get the notion that I'm talking about average Smash fans? If I'm talking about average smash fans, then I would talk about Bandana Dee, Geno, Isaac, Dixie Kong, obscure picks that Smash or/and Nintendo fans really wanted to see. I have a feeling that you are trying to throw "your average smash fans" to just dismiss my points about Sakurai wants to focus on more collaboration and new franchises inclusion; and how they dropped Nintendo All Stars from the title.

Smash being the promotional vehicle and Sakurai might want to surprise the fans with favorite are the reasons why I haven't counted out Nintendo franchises YET and I'm open to it as well. There is a reason why few people strongly believe that it's going to be majority of third parties because of Sakurai's comments and President's comment as well.



Basically it seems that it's a smart move to attracts fans by including their favorite franchises' characters in Smash Bros. So both sides would get exposed to new stuffs. Nintendo fans would learn more stuffs about third parties' franchises. And third parties fans probably pick up Smash Bros to play as their favorite character(s) against friends or so. Essentially they would get introduces to those Nintendo characters and third parties but is it completely guarantee that they would pick up the games. Nope but that's a risk they chose to endure. Also if people are going to pay for online services then they would get exposure to Nintendo Online System (NES and SNES).

That's why I think it's pretty smart move for them to making their goal to have Ultimate Crossover for Super Smash Bros Ultimate and Super Smash Bros Special. So it's essentially a special game to have a lot of crossover from many different franchises through collaborations. We will know for sure what would happens with second fighter pass eventually. People are getting their excitements from seeing who would be next characters getting in Smash Bros.

The truth is guest characters are more appealing to casual fans so that's why many fighting games are starting to have those guest characters from another universes or so. But you are right about the points of DLC is promotions both way or so. However at same time Sakurai said that it's a risky business so I presume with his statement that they also expect to make profits as well. They probably want to make profits, not just from characters but from the games they potentially sell to new fans.
 
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MoonToon

Member
Nov 9, 2018
514
I'm not talking about average smash fans. I'm not sure how did you get the notion that I'm talking about average Smash fans? If I'm talking about average smash fans, then I would talk about Bandana Dee, Geno, Isaac, Dixie Kong, obscure picks that Smash or/and Nintendo fans really wanted to see.
No, I think you're confusing "arvg Smash fans" with "Smash fans who talk about this shit excessively online".
I find it hard to believe most people who buy this game give any fucks about Geno or that many young people today have played a Golden Sun game ... given how most old people today haven't played Golden Sun.

If you think they're gonna make the DLC all 3rd party we're gonna have to agree to disagree and wait-n-see.
That's all that can really be said.


Cloud was never specifically said to be from the ballot, just that Final Fantasy was a popular request in general. Given that Cloud's first data appears 15 days into the ballot, and knowing that Square plays hardball for negotiations, it's extremely unlikely he was added because of it.
"Having a representative from Final Fantasy is an amazing feat! And the character that was the overwhelming favorite among the cast of Final Fantasy was Cloud. "

Smash has had many polls, all of which I'm sure FF and SF poster kids did well on. We really don't know when they decided to take the poll results into consideration but all that is moot.


Ryu was being worked before the ballot even started... not sure what point you're trying to make here. "Clearly would have done well" is a useless hypothetical and one that can't even be proven.
You don't think Ryu is a popular character that would rank high on a smash poll? IDK what your point is..

Also, my point was this part ....
" After internal analysis, we decided that if we’re going to make DLC, we would choose a character from a soon-to-be-released new game. After consulting many times with Nintendo and looking at the upcoming release schedule, Fire Emblem Fates was in just the right spot. "

You know, the part where Sakurai literally says "because we're doing DLC I added in this character as DLC because they were from an upcoming Nintendo game" ... to show my point about how the last game to have DLC before this game he made it a point to include a brand new Nintendo character along with 3 returns. To show perhaps he's not completely horned up for having nothing but 3rd party DLC.

But again, if you 2 think he's gonna continue with nothing but 3rd party characters for this game's DLC then we're gonna have to agree to disagree.
 

IntelliHeath

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,004
No, I think you're confusing "arvg Smash fans" with "Smash fans who talk about this shit excessively online".
I find it hard to believe most people who buy this game give any fucks about Geno or that many young people today have played a Golden Sun game ... given how most old people today haven't played Golden Sun.

If you think they're gonna make the DLC all 3rd party we're gonna have to agree to disagree and wait-n-see.
That's all that can really be said
Okay, It just seems that you didn't even read my statements fully since you said that I still think that we are going to get full third parties despite I kept saying that I'm not counting them out... Yeah, I'm done with this discussion.