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Super Smash Bros. Ultimate |OT2| Everyone Is Here!

Oct 26, 2017
7,053
How the hell so? Cuz tier lists?
Aside from a generally really solid kit, he's got some tools that are absolutely ridiculous. His Down B (the whistle) gives him super armour and can be cancelled, making it an incredibly defensive tool, his Up Smash comes out ridiculously fast, and depending on which Pikmin lineup he has available, has insane throws with blues, knockback with purples, damage output for his side B with whites, and the other 2 colours are generally solid.
The biggest downside of Olimar is that he's light, but he's got a good recovery and even an off-stage tool defending his recovery with side B.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,813
Got Lucas back into Elite Smash, and actually made some progress against the Links who are a really bad matchup for me.

Any Snake who doesn't abuse their tilts ain't playing right tbh
S'truebob, swear on me mum. Like 90% of my Snake matches have been against dudes who just bounce around throwing grenades and mines.
 
Mar 17, 2019
49
When the game came out it was unplayable for me due to heavy online/input lag things. My internet was fine, no problem with any online games.
How is the situation nowadays? Do these issues have been fixed?
 
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Oct 25, 2017
12,813
Turns out I'm not getting better, I just occasionally have days where I fight a string of bad players and then get put in my place the next day.

Fuck.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,813
My gawd, the game set me up entirely against people in Elite Smash this entire session when I'm at least 300k from getting in. Also I learned I'm not nearly as good at fighting Snake as I thought.

Despite not actually being good with Lucas the time I put into trying to get good rekindled my love for Mother 3 so I'm playing that now, which is nice.

Just make a plan here or SmashERA discord or set up battle arena and share room ID/add a friend. Simple!
Alright. Oh and I only have wi-fi if that's a hindrance to anything.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
12,813
The hell, I just had a Mewtwo use his A Mash on me for 60% damage twice.

Is there a way to lookup your wins/losses in Smash Ultimate?

What is a good rank anyways?
Yeah it should be in the Records section.

As for rank, think of GSP as a standard for how good you are. It's more than a little arbitrary and you'll frequently fight people far above and below you.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
12,813
Came up with some buffs I'd like to see for Lucas.

- Faster PK Fire, or longer range. Something that makes it more easily abusable since it's Lucas' main zoning tool. Also let PK Fire still go off when landing while casting. AFAIK there aren't any other characters who flat out whiff the move when landing, but then there's lots of characters I haven't played.

- More stun on DAir so it isn't so easily punished. I've had way too many times where people fall out of it and immediately counter me to the point of making the most next to unusable for anything other than spiking specific characters.

- Up Smash's startup knocking people into it, like Inkling's Up Smash. I'd like it to be faster but I guess that defeats the point of it being sort of a trap move you're supposed to plan to use.

- Larger hitbox on Down Smash.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,327
Limburg
Came up with some buffs I'd like to see for Lucas.

- Faster PK Fire, or longer range. Something that makes it more easily abusable since it's Lucas' main zoning tool. Also let PK Fire still go off when landing while casting. AFAIK there aren't any other characters who flat out whiff the move when landing, but then there's lots of characters I haven't played.

- More stun on DAir so it isn't so easily punished. I've had way too many times where people fall out of it and immediately counter me to the point of making the most next to unusable for anything other than spiking specific characters.

- Up Smash's startup knocking people into it, like Inkling's Up Smash. I'd like it to be faster but I guess that defeats the point of it being sort of a trap move you're supposed to plan to use.

- Larger hitbox on Down Smash.
Those last two are insane to buff on moves that already are devastating. Down smash hits through ledges and up smash hits through platforms. They’re already big ol hit boxes
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,055
I hope with update 3.0, they change some annoying moves. Many of them aren't overpowered, just very boring to fight against or watch on streams. For example making PK Fire less annoying to deal. They don't need to nerf the characters or moves, just rebalance them.

My top 3 moves, which should be rebalanced: Ness's PK Fire, Wolf's Blaster and Ike's Nair.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,813
Is it scrubby to say that I think Incineroar's Revenge needs to be nerfed? A no cost huge buff that makes Alolan Whip, already a really strong move, do upwards of 80 damage.

Anyway I think I need to incorporate ZAir more into Lucas' moveset. I feel like it'll help me gimp opponents and hit them with Forward Tilt and A Mash.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,813
I gotta say I am a fucking master of doing well in the first chunk of a match and getting my opponent down to their last stock with tons of damage only to butt fumble the entire thing in the last minute and hand them the victory.

Anyway, turns out I really should be using ZAir during matches. Especially against heavy opponents it staggers and opens them up for follow ups which is something I've really been struggling with using Lucas.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
1,055
Is it scrubby to say that I think Incineroar's Revenge needs to be nerfed? A no cost huge buff that makes Alolan Whip, already a really strong move, do upwards of 80 damage.
Hell, no. Revenge is more then just a counter, it is also his Refelctor. If people spam moves, you can collect the damage, to give it back.
 
May 10, 2018
1,183
I feel like I have put in more than enough time, tried a bunch of different strategies, but must come to the conclusion that Simon Belmont sucks. I get that he's supposed to be a primarily zoning character but every single one of his moves is so goddamn slow. There's barely anything in his arsenal to clear out someone comboing you. As everyone knows, his recovery fucking sucks, even the tether recovery is really weird and unpredictable.

He doesn't need a power buff since his attacks are pretty strong, but he needs some buffs. His projectiles neeeeed to come out faster. Side Smash needs to come out a split second faster.

Fun character but I've been hovering around 200k GSP with him for too long and I think I'm ready to call it quits.
 

r_n

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747

Jigglypuff! Despite being a simple model the change in color helsp a lot, as does her skin now having a reflective property and the eyes have depth to them.
She has a couple tweaks to her animations (her pummel is now a kick, she tip toes on her slow walk, some extra bounce here & there) but just generally faster, more expressive, and she faces the camera more.
 
Oct 25, 2017
18,365
Western New York
Looks like Jigglypuff's curl has a bit of physics to it now. And while we now know Jigglypuff apparently has fur, Smash makes her even more balloon like with her skin texture.

I like that she can be angry in more attacks now, because she's adorable when angry


It's hard to imagine Smash without Jigglypuff
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,053
At least we have Dark Pit (and probably Daisy) to be the punching bag for cut heavy people to focus on now.
ROB, Ice Climbers, Dr. Mario, Pichu, Young and Toon Link, Wii Fit Trainer, Dark Pit, Miis, Wolf, various FE characters and Pac-Man all have been pretty popular targets. I imagine that Isabelle and Piranha Plant also are going to be (not sure about Daisy).
Jigglypuff hatred outlived them all, and even survived several of these characters being cut in one or two games.
 

r_n

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747
ROB, Ice Climbers, Dr. Mario, Pichu, Young and Toon Link, Wii Fit Trainer, Dark Pit, Miis, Wolf, various FE characters and Pac-Man all have been pretty popular targets. I imagine that Isabelle and Piranha Plant also are going to be (not sure about Daisy).
Jigglypuff hatred outlived them all, and even survived several of these characters being cut in one or two games.
Pac-Man? Why Pac-Man? I've seen the others at various times but I don't think I've seen Pac-Man specifically ,that's weird.


The best part of JIgglypuff outliving them all is she's survived nearly being cut twice, at least.
& my theory is if Mewtwo had been simpler to implement (somehow), he'd beat out Jigglypuff for that coveted "Sonic delayed the game so we can add more characters" slot.
 
Oct 25, 2017
18,365
Western New York
I agree, I think Mewtwo’s complexity was his downfall in Brawl

Jigglypuff was basically ported right from Melee. Mewtwo couldn’t have been done like that due to not only his complexity as a character but also because his actual design was outdated. Fire Red and Leaf Green made substantial changes to how Mewtwo looked, while Jigglypuff could get away with a slightly dated design
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,813
How do you fight Fox and Sonic as Lucas? They're way too fast for me to keep up. Is it something where a lot of grabbing helps?

On the plus side I'm getting a lot better at fighting Ganondorfs. Used to be I really hated them but now I'm all "I'm here, Ganondorf, you big fucking nerd. Where's my goddamn money?"
 
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r_n

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747
I agree, I think Mewtwo’s complexity was his downfall in Brawl

Jigglypuff was basically ported right from Melee. Mewtwo couldn’t have been done like that due to not only his complexity as a character but also because his actual design was outdated. Fire Red and Leaf Green made substantial changes to how Mewtwo looked, while Jigglypuff could get away with a slightly dated design
Jigglypuff at every step of the process has lucked out from being built heavily off Kirby, from Smash 64 to present. Jiggs, of all characters, really deserved to have their Classic mode based on Smash 64.


and hey just for fun, let's remember Mewtwo in Melee.


To what would have been the at-minimum for Brawl

I think this model is from PBR but it's a good baseline
 
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OP
OP
IntelliHeath
Oct 25, 2017
6,605
ROB, Ice Climbers, Dr. Mario, Pichu, Young and Toon Link, Wii Fit Trainer, Dark Pit, Miis, Wolf, various FE characters and Pac-Man all have been pretty popular targets. I imagine that Isabelle and Piranha Plant also are going to be (not sure about Daisy).
Jigglypuff hatred outlived them all, and even survived several of these characters being cut in one or two games.
Don't forget Cloud and Duck Hunt. Also Bayonetta.. Those three still getting the requests to be cut from the roster.
 

r_n

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747
I have seen several people want Cloud cut because Final Fantasy's representation sucks and believe that if it's going to be like this forever he shouldn't be here at all which is just some monumental galaxy braining
 
Oct 25, 2017
18,365
Western New York
Patch 2.0.2 Final Average Pro Tier List



TIER LIST

https://imgur.com/bQzn00f

METHODOLOGY

Calculations spreadsheet

Each character gets points based on which position they appear in each pro's tier lists (lowest being the better). In the cases where the pro doesn't order the characters within a tier, they all get the same "position" which is the average within that tier: (top + bottom positions) / 2

Each character’s final score is their average score across all the tier lists. If there's a tie, the one with less standard deviation goes first.

The grouping of characters in tiers is done based on the difference between their scores. They can be split further or grouped more tightly together but I found the end result was a good compromise.

NOTES

The following characters are treated the same by most pros so they share the same spot in the tier list:
  • Peach / Daisy
  • Simon / Richter
  • Samus / Dark Samus
  • Pit / Dark Pit
Feel free to ask me any questions or leave any suggestions you might have to improve the next tier list! See you in Patch 3.0.0 ;-)

Shoutouts to inktivate for his spreadsheet format that is an improvement from the one I was previously using. Make sure to check his tier list which uses a tier-based methodology.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,731
I kind of don't really consider Pichu a Gen II rep because he was included due to being an easy work off of Pikachu...

Sometimes I wonder if Sakurai had more time for Melee which Gen II Pokemon he would've gone with. I think Scizor.

Generation III would've definitely been Blaziken and Generation V...I think Zoroark or Genesect if Smash 4 came out a few years earlier.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,281
I think Sakurai would have gone with Pichu no matter what. It was one of the most marketed and popular second generation Pokémon back in the day, and Togepi and the legendaries don't really feel like playable Smash Bros. material.



If Sakurai had time for additional unique characters he probably would have put that attention towards other series.
 

r_n

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747
If there was a unique Pokemon newcomer in addition to Mewtwo AND he wanted a gen 2 rep specifically rather than going with Charizard, I could see one of the starters. They're definite safe Pokemon to go with regardless of timeline within a generation
Maybe Totodile? A tiny light weight with some power behind him, visually distinct, could easily grab Ash's totodile for personality. Anecdotally totodile felt like the most popular of the 3 starters. I can easily see Totodile appealing to Sakurai.




Mannnn now I want Totodile...
 
Oct 25, 2017
18,365
Western New York
Gen II's starters always live in Gen I's starters' shadows, they never really held onto popularity like the other gens' starters.

Suicune or Tyranitar would have worked as a full fledged Gen II rep, although Pichu works fine too, considering breeding and baby Pokemon were a big deal in Gen II.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,281
The second generation sort of felt like an extension of the first generation -- there were a lot of baby Pokémon, new evolutions of old Pokémon, and cut concepts that didn't make it into Red/Blue. I genuinely think Pichu is a good representation of that.
 

r_n

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747
You know, I really wanna see Melee's project plan. Smash 64 came out 1999 so Melee had to start planning proper later that year and GS are dropping then.

We know a lot about Melee's considerations but most of those are either things briefly considered and thrown away (Takamaru, Ayumi, Mach Rider, probably Rare characters as a whole), Third Party requests who missed the boat due to timing (Snake, Sonic), & Retro Reps who were in competition with Ice Climber (Urban Champion, Bubbles, Excitebiker).
But in terms of characters we know were probably planned from the start, it's basically just Wario (“If we could have added one or two more characters, then maybe he would have made it. He was certainly high up on the list of characters we considered but ultimately he didn’t make it.” )and Lucas (who would've replaced Ness).

I'd be surprised if those were the only ones so maybe a "proper" gen 2 Pokemon WAS in consideration at the time?

Well even if not (could be Mewtwo was the only Pokemon marked down & Sprout Tower & pokeballs would've just been the gen 2 "rep") it'd be cool to know some of the mindset going on. Melee's development period was one hell of a time:
-short dev cycle
-the Rare buyout
-hardware generation transition
-game delays aplenty, doubt Lucas was the only causality of that.