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Supergiant about Epic Store: "Competition is good for everybody. It's good for customers. It's good for people working in the industry"

Oct 25, 2017
7,099
Singapore
So, am I super off the mark
Yup. Completely. It's not even about buying games on Steam, it's about being able to buy a game at different stores. When only one store sells the product, that allows the store to control the price of the product completely. Steam having discounts is a completely different matter from any store being able to sell games which use Steamworks because publishers and developers can generate keys and provide them to any retailer.
 
Jan 20, 2019
222
Thanks for the response guys, this is making a lot more sense now. The key generation system is really confusing but im getting a handle on it.

What needs to change about the EGS to match up with the other store fronts? Because it seems like Epic has to rather aggressive just to exist as joining the status quo along with EA and Ubi looks like just losing to Valve and Steam.
 

Eumi

Member
Nov 3, 2017
2,524
Hopefully in the future they can help contribute to a competitive market instead of allowing a single company to control their products distribution.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,965
Thanks for the response guys, this is making a lot more sense now. The key generation system is really confusing but im getting a handle on it.
It's difficult because the key system is open to abuse and grey market keys can be a frustration for devs where the value of their game gets severely undercut but I don't agree with Epic completely shutting it down. There has to be a better solution
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,417
Valve had a decade to build their features because they were in relatively uncharted territory and were often even at the forefront of the inventions of those features. So the argument that anyone needs to be allowed to play catch up rings hollow. Some things make sense, lacking things like a search bar or cloud saves do not.

Like, if Google announces their gaming hardware, they are not going to be judged by Xbox 360 standards, they are going to be correctly judged by PS4/Xbox One / Switch standards.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,807
Okay. I think that sucks and they still need to work on the regional pricing and making sure those discounts are reflected across regions. I can get it for cheaper, but I guess I can't say anything positive or talk about a positive experience, since only negativity counts or is valid when it comes to Epic.

Yeah, and often through grey market retailers like CDKeys. But it wasn't only US region that had the price lowered. Like I said, when Epic introduced regional pricing for regions that hadn't had it anymore, it lowered the cost of the game.

Sorry, you expect every storefront to launch with the same full features set as Steam that Valve had more than a decade to build? I think that's a very strange expectation and I dispute the idea that every new product is expected to have the exact same feature set as a competing product that has had decades to develop its features

No, I said that to act like the price rose and the feature set got worse in all cases isn't true. If you want to find a place where I said they had the same feature set as Valve, I'm looking forward you producing the quotation.

You're not just cherrypicking, you're even throwing in student discounts as if that's a valid or fair way to measure pricing. It doesn't exactly defend against the idea that you're going out of your way to cherrypick examples that make Epic look bad on pricing.

In some cases and I've happily acknowledged they have a ways to go. But you won't even acknowledge the cases where people are paying less for the same game because that doesn't fit with your 'Epic is the root of all evil' narrative

You're the only one spouting blanket statements. I'm acknowledging that the experience is variable across regions and storefronts while you are trying to act like your region's pricing (and even your student discount!) is an option for everyone.

Of course it is true !
Does Metro Exodus support Cloud Saves ? Does it support Library sharing ? Is it playable on Linux ? No ? Then it got worse.
The price has gone from 45€ to 60€ in Europe. 45 dollars to 50 dollars in USA. I'm not even throwing my student discount here, I'm throwing that on top. Because COMPETITION meant a store was offering me advantage as a student. That's called COMPETITION here.

You're right, in some part of the world, people are paying less. But guess what ? Far more people are paying more than people paying less.
How am I spouting blanket statements ? I gave you concrete facts, concrete exemples. You failed to provide any.
I'm not telling you my student discount is the case for everyone. I gave you that on top. YES MORE OPTIONS. What's hard to understand here ? Without any voucher or special situation: EVERYONE in USA or Europe could buy it for 45dollars/euros. Now it's 50 dollars/60€. This is the truth for most people.
 
Oct 25, 2017
282
USA
Epic should focus on improving their storefront rather than buying exclusives. Why the hell would i want to go buy a game on a service that offers a fraction of the features steam has. Its 2019 and still nobody has been able to come close to offering what Steam does.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,965
Valve had a decade to build their features because they were in relatively uncharted territory and were often even at the forefront of the inventions of those features. So the argument that anyone needs to be allowed to play catch up rings hollow. Some things make sense, lacking things like a search bar or cloud saves do not.
Sure, I think the lack of cloud saves is ridiculous.
Like, if Google announces their gaming hardware, they are not going to be judged by Xbox 360 standards, they are going to be correctly judged by PS4/Xbox One / Switch standards.
Maybe not a great example, since the Switch has launched lacking a huge number of features that its two rival platforms have but it's often defended as offering a core gaming experience without all those other features. I don't agree but I'm willing to give Nintendo time to build its new online service. I think they're stretching people's patience with that, though, and by this point most people seem to have accepted they aren't going to support even basic features like voice chat or usernames and I see that lack of features defended all the time
 
Oct 25, 2017
430
It's difficult because the key system is open to abuse and grey market keys can be a frustration for devs where the value of their game gets severely undercut but I don't agree with Epic completely shutting it down. There has to be a better solution
I'm not sure you understand the "grey market" at all. The developers do not lose any money on sites like GMG or CD Keys. The store that sells it takes a hit on their cut.

It's the reason why Epic can't really do it because their profit margins are so small at 12%. So small that sometimes you are charged transaction fees.
 

Hektor

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,338
Deutschland
Yeah, and often through grey market retailers like CDKeys. But it wasn't only US region that had the price lowered. Like I said, when Epic introduced regional pricing for regions that hadn't had it anymore, it lowered the cost of the game.
No, through officially licensed resellers such as voidu and GMG that directly work with the publishers. I would suggest you to inform yourself about the economical realities of the pc gaming space as despite your claims of being a pc gamer, you clearly don't know much about it.

Maybe the discount wasn't "just the u.s." but it sure as hell wasn't for Europe, one of the biggest pc gaming markets in the world.

In your other responses you complain about people cherrypicking discounts yet you yourself argue only with a region specific discount that's not available to everyone equally, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
 
Jan 17, 2018
1,401
May I ask how exactly Epic's brand of competition is good for customers? It locks the content on an inferior, feature less client and asks the majority of gamers to either pay the same or more than the price on Steam, not to mention all the security breaches that seemingly happen every other week.

I wish more devs cut out on PR BS and just said outright that they value upfront money more than potential sales and don't care about user experience whatsoever.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,705
China
"It's good for customers."

Yeah. Tell that to Chinese customers that cant buy the games.
Tell that to Linux gamers.
Tell that to people that just want achievements.
 
Jan 20, 2019
222
It's difficult because the key system is open to abuse and grey market keys can be a frustration for devs where the value of their game gets severely undercut but I don't agree with Epic completely shutting it down. There has to be a better solution
This is what I remember from how dev frustration looked like in the past so I don't quite believe everyone here when they are saying the devs are getting their cut regardless.
 
Nov 21, 2017
920
This only benefits customers in the sense that, if Valve does take part in this moneyhatting competition, we can eventually play the pointless exclusives war console fanboys have been playing for years. Hey, if anything, the developers can finally look for money hats when launching their games on PC! There's so much win in this, it's like a win win win win win infinity win situation for everyone involved.

Being a PC gamer since the end of the PS360 era, I can say I'm thoroughly excited about finally being able to brag to EA fanboys that my favourite storefront has the game's exclusivity bought. I can't wait to see what this Epic competition can bring!
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,965
I'm not sure you understand the "grey market" at all. The developers do not lose any money on sites like GMG or CD Keys. The store that sells it takes a hit on their cut.
I don't think you understand the grey market at all if you're calling authorized retailers like GMG who are absolutely not grey market part of the grey market
No, through officially licensed resellers such as voidu and GMG that directly work with the publishers. I would suggest you to inform yourself about the economical realities of the pc gaming space as despite your claims of being a pc gamer, you clearly don't know anything about it.
You're right, no one uses CDKeys, G2A or Kinguin. My not realizing that just shows that I'm a fake PC gamer. You really got me good
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,550
May I ask how exactly Epic's brand of competition is good for customers?
It isn't. Epic likes it because they can moneyhat their way to 'competing' right now instead of doing the hard work and creating a service that customers will want to use. Developers like it because they get handsomely paid for the exclusivity. Customers get nothing.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,612
I wonder what would happen to stores like GMG, Fanatical etc if Valve lowered the revenue split to 15/85 for everyone.

We already have one casualty, the fair price guarantee feature on GOG. This actively worsened deal for us, customers. Thanks Epic.
Issue is that Valve can't lower their cut that much without sacrificing something. Issue is that developers, especially indie ones are not good with business part and don't understand what it takes to run a store as big as Steam, so when Tim Sweeney comes out and says that 7-8% is enough for running store (and that is blatant lie) they believe him and start to demand for unreasonable things.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,655
Thanks for the response guys, this is making a lot more sense now. The key generation system is really confusing but im getting a handle on it.
I'll summarize it for you:

Let's say a developer sells a game on Steam for 60€.
Valve takes 30% of every sale on Steam (25% or 20% after they sold certain amounts), so the developer gets 40€ and Valve 20€.
The developer can generate keys and sell these keys to others. Valve takes 0% from these keys.
So, if a developer sells a key on their own Homepage they get 100% of the revenue, the full 60€ (disregarding operation costs for simplicity).
If they sell it to 3rd party stores, like Voidu or GMG, those take 30% as well, so the dev gets 40€, Valve 0€ and Voidu/GMG 20€ when they sell a game.
What those other stores then do is give discounts out of their 30% cut.
This is where those 10-25% preorder discounts or discounts for games that were not on an official sale yet are coming from on PC.
Let's say this 60€ game has a -20% preorder discount on Voidu.
I pay 48€, the developer gets 40€, Voidu gets 8€ and Valve gets 0€ in this case.
I get the game cheaper while the developer gets the same amount as they would from a Steam sale.
 
Oct 29, 2017
1,001
So why are they taking a big bag of money to not sell their game on competing storefronts?
The competition is thata their sore offers games, that others are not.

This thread devolved like any other Epic store related one. Next people are gonna complain that a Ford dealership doesn't offer Mercedes.

, so when Tim Sweeney comes out and says that 7-8% is enough for running store (and that is blatant lie) they believe him and start to demand for unreasonable things.
Is there any evidence of that?
 

Hektor

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,338
Deutschland
You're right, no one uses CDKeys, G2A or Kinguin. My not realizing that just shows that I'm a fake PC gamer. You really got me good
This is an incredibly dishonest shitpost.

CDkeys and Kinguin have fucking nothing to do with the discounts i have been talking about and were entirely brought up by you because you don't know about the difference between the official, licensed resellers i'm talking about and the grey market you are thinking about.

If that's your level of having an argument, good fucking riddance, stay ignorant.
 
Feb 2, 2018
2,068
Denmark
I honestly can't take this type of commentary seriously from a developer who took a big fat money hat for exclusivity to one store. No shit you're happy - and you're also supporting business practices that I'm strongly against as a consumer.
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,098
Belgium
What needs to change about the EGS to match up with the other store fronts? Because it seems like Epic has to rather aggressive just to exist as joining the status quo along with EA and Ubi looks like just losing to Valve and Steam.
What Epic needs to do is to improve their store, so that it's actually better than Steam. They have been criticizing Steam on many occasions, so let's see if they can do certain features better than Steam - instead of not having these features at all. They also should fund the development of their own games, instead of moneyhatting promising games right before release. And they need to support 3rd party keystores of course.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,965
This is an incredibly dishonest shitpost.
I'm sure you would know better than I, oh revered and enlightened PC gamer. I am but a fake fan
CDkeys and Kinguin have fucking nothing to do with the discounts i have been talking about and were entirely brought up by you because you don't know about the difference between the official, licensed reseller i'm talking about and the grey market you are thinking about.
No, of course they do. Yes, discounts are sometimes available through legitimate resellers. But often the discounts people get on PC are through grey market sites like CDKeys and I stand by that. The discounts offered on CDKeys are often posted on this forum and many people take advantage of those offers. Doesn't mean I don't understand the difference between an authorized reseller like GMG and grey market like CDKeys/Kinguin.
If that's your Level of having an argument, good fucking riddance, stay ignorant.
If your level of argument are these sort of petty insults and tedious needless aggression, then I don't think I'm missing out on much.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,342
I do generally describe an increase in price for a worst service, as something good for me the consumer.

...

Enjoy your Epic money, you did what you felt was good for your business, but don't insult our intelligence.
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,098
Belgium
The competition is thata their sore offers games, that others are not.
Lol, that's not competition...

This thread devolved like any other Epic store related one. Next people are gonna complain that a Ford dealership doesn't offer Mercedes.
That's not related at all. What happens here is that a garage owner pays Ford to prevent them from selling their cars in other garages.
 
Oct 31, 2017
554
User warned: Trolling.
The competition is thata their sore offers games, that others are not.

This thread devolved like any other Epic store related one. Next people are gonna complain that a Ford dealership doesn't offer Mercedes.
I come to these threads just to read through the ridiculous salt.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,642
I have zero fear that like, I can love Steam and your love for one platform doesn't need to come at the exclusion of another. So I like seeing more places to play games out there, and see how different perspectives on it pan out.
This wouldn’t sounds like bullshit if not for the fact that Epic is having an exclusivity stance.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,612
Is there any evidence of that?

This is just one example.

Another example is Humble widget where in FAQ there is this

Q: What are the revenue splits?

A: After deductions for payment processor fees (typically around 5%), the net revenue is split 95% to the developer, and 5% to Humble Bundle. VAT is deducted where applicable.
So payment processing fees alone are 5% at best.
 

Hektor

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,338
Deutschland
I'm sure you would know better than I, oh revered and enlightened PC gamer. I am but a fake fan
Well, clearly i do.

No, of course they do.
Yes, discounts are sometimes available through legitimate resellers. But often the discounts people get on PC are through grey market sites like CDKeys and I stand by that. The discounts offered on CDKeys are often posted on this forum and many people take advantage of those offers. Doesn't mean I don't understand the difference between an authorized reseller like GMG and grey market like CDKeys/Kinguin.
These fucking Grey market resellers have fucking nothing to do with the Discounts i'm talking about.
Literally how hard is this for you to understand?

What does the existence of Cdkeys have to do with my point about getting 25% off on a licensed reseller like Voidu?
The only one who is bringing up the grey market is you and you alone. I have at no point ever talked about discounts received through cd keys, i'm only talking about discounts of officially licensed resellers.

The fact that there are also other ways of getting games even cheaper has no bearing on the point i'm making.

I would suggest you to look up isthereanydeal.com which only lists official, licensed sellers.

If your level of argument are these sort of petty insults and tedious needless aggression, then I don't think I'm missing out on much.
k
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,457
CDKeys might be gray market but should not be said in the same sentence as Kinguin.

CDKeys buys physical copies of games (which Valve takes 0% of) from retailers in cheaper regions and sells the keys. Kinguin however is not as legit and actually features stolen keys and other shit that should not be allowed.

(And that is not to say a lot of shops cut from their own % to drive sales, like Voidu or Humble Monthly overall discount in the store).
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,008
No, it's not competition. Real competition would be Epic providing a storefront that actually provides legitimate value that other storefronts don't have. Instead, the Epic Store is basically a bare-bones launcher with a friends list.

I wouldn't normally go into 'lazy devs' territory, but when a whole bunch of useful features that shouldn't be unreasonable for Epic to implement at launch (especially cloud saves) are completely absent and Epic initially implies they aren't interested in adding more features, well, that just makes Epic look like a bunch of lazy assholes.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,965
You gave an example of two games sold on Cdkeys?
Sorry, what more evidence do you want that many people buy discounted games from CDKeys? The discounts are often posted on this forum and people take advantage of them. I could trawl through dozens of Reddit posts too, if you really want, but that would be pretty tedious
These fucking Grey market resellers have fucking nothing to do with the Discounts i'm talking about.
Literally how hard is this for you to understand?
You referred to "20-25€ discounts PCgamers are used to receive for every Major AAA title." I pointed out that level of discounting often comes from sources on the grey market and it's absolutely not available through authorized retailers for "every major AAA title." You didn't specify only discounts available through legitimate retailers.
I would suggest you to look up isthereanydeal.com which only lists official, licensed sellers.
Okay? And other price comparison sites list gray market deals. What is your point?
CDKeys buys physical copies of games (which Valve takes 0% of) from retailers in cheaper regions and sells the keys. Kinguin however is not as legit and actually features stolen keys and other shit that should not be allowed.
It's a fair point and I should point out that I'm not necessarily against the premise of people being able to resell keys. If you have a game key that you don't want, it's probably fair that an eBay style service exists for you to sell it to someone who wants it. The problem is the level of abuse and stolen credit card keys, etc. that is very hard to track down. Still, abusing regional pricing to get cheap games for people in other countries isn't exactly noble
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,426
How about putting your fucking game on every store and just being cheaper on EGS. That would be good for paying customers, taking away choice isn't.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
3,705
China
No, it's not competition. Real competition would be Epic providing a storefront that actually provides legitimate value that other storefronts don't have. Instead, the Epic Store is basically a bare-bones launcher with a friends list.

I wouldn't normally go into 'lazy devs' territory, but when a whole bunch of useful features that shouldn't be unreasonable for Epic to implement at launch (especially cloud saves) are completely absent and Epic initially implies they aren't interested in adding more features, well, that just makes Epic look like a bunch of lazy assholes.
Epic said achievements and cloud systems will come in Q3 2019.

You referred to "20-25€ discounts PCgamers are used to receive for every Major AAA title." I pointed out that level of discounting often comes from sources on the grey market and it's absolutely not available through authorized retailers for "every major AAA title." You didn't specify only discounts available through legitimate retailers.
Voidu and GMG usually have 20% sales. Many people got VC4 on Voidu when they had one of those 20% coupons.

Still, abusing regional pricing to get cheap games for people in other countries isn't exactly noble
That happens everywhere though. Just look at Era and how many people have South African, South American Switch accounts. Or Europeans having US PSN accounts just to get $ prices which are usually cheaper than € prices.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,832
Wasn't Civ V only a Steam exclusive for a digital deluxe edition? You could still buy the game at retail and from any online store selling keys. Can you do the same for Hades?
Civ V required Steam period. Not many raised a fuss. It worked out well for Valve- as the Steam Crowd loved it, while the Civ IV crowd really didn't.

Lower cuts won't trickle down to consumers, they'll just be pocketed. This is why I think many of the game consumers are skeptical (and why I am as well).
 
Oct 25, 2017
278
Cardiff, Wales
So Supergiant don't want to compete with games on Steam, don't want Steam to compete with Epic by having the game on both stores, and then say competition is good?

Do they think we're stupid?
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,807
This is what I remember from how dev frustration looked like in the past so I don't quite believe everyone here when they are saying the devs are getting their cut regardless.

Dev frustration doesn't come from the price. It comes from the fact keys were bought with stolen cards then chargebacks were done. Or keys devs were tricked to give to pseudo streamers that sold them afterward.
 
Feb 21, 2018
424
Yes Competition in general is good for everybody, the devs and the consumers but epic store isn't good for the consumers and nor good for devs(in the long run). If anything thats visible is the huge disconnect between developers and consumers. The developers do not understand why the consumers prefer and use another digital platform instead of epic store, they keep repeating the same 'its another launcher' rhetoric.