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Hektor

Community Resettler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,884
Deutschland
You referred to "20-25€ discounts PCgamers are used to receive for every Major AAA title." I pointed out that level of discounting often comes from sources on the grey market and it's absolutely not available through authorized retailers for "every major AAA title." You didn't specify only discounts available through legitimate retailers.

I specified this in my first follow-up post after you brought up grey market sites.

Okay? And other price comparison sites list gray market deals. What is your point?

The point is that you might want to look at this site and realize that 20-25€ Discounts for AAA titles are not in any way a grey market exclusive thing like you're repeatedly suggesting and are, in fact, avilable through authorized retailers.

Just this year, i had preordered Ace Combat 7 for 35€, Total War: Three Kingdoms for 37€, Resident Evil 2 for 45€ and DMCV Deluxe Edition for 43€ all through authorized resellers.

That said, i want to apologize for appearing aggressive, that was uncalled for.
 

mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,441
There's two distinct layers of competition here, and I think Supergiant are being somewhat disingenuous (or I'm willing to give them naive as an alternative; this is not a trivial economic matter) to conflate the two and regard them both as one.

There's the competition between storefronts to secure product to release on that storefront. The owner of the product is equivalent to the consumer here, and the competition here is absolutely beneficial to them - and it's a form of competition that prior to now had been fairly low-aggression. Epic's introduction was an aggressive step into a fairly relaxed battleground, and that aggression has proven beneficial to the product owners who were targetted with it.

There's also the competition between storefronts to advertise to consumers as being the place to purchase a given product, with the consumers being the beneficiary of their aggression with each other. This tends to have brief moments of aggression over sale periods, relaxing somewhat in off-periods.

The problem is that the way Epic have approached this has resulted in something of a zero-sum game; the former competition has come about at the expense of the latter competition; the balance of power in Epic's model has shifted a bit towards the product owner at the expense of the consumer.

So I think it's disingenuous to blanket everything with an "It's competition, and competition is good!". There's more nuance to it than that.

Now, it has to be said, all that does come with a caveat, and it's not insignificant; it may actually be the case that the balance of power currently is already tipped to the consumer to a dangerous degree, and this is redressing the balance somewhat. I can see arguments for that - the race-to-the-bottom mentality is distressing, certainly, and yes, the industry may benefit from a bit more care and control of perception of values and price, but on the other hand digital has blown up on PC because it's an environment that's often tipped towards the consumer, and eroding that may in itself not be healthy. I'm intrigued by the Epic experiment because of all this.

But yes, ultimately: If you do want to think of it as a single layer of competition, think of it as competition between consumers and product owners to get the best deal out of storefronts. Is that competition good?
 

Zem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,969
United Kingdom
I don't really care if it's early access only because I'd never get it until full release anyway. I have all their games and think they're great and Hades looks brilliant but I'll wait until it's on Steam or PS4 thanks.
 

tulpa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,878
The point is that you might want to look at this site and realize that 20-25€ Discounts for AAA titles are not in any way a grey market exclusive thing like you're repeatedly suggesting and are, in fact, avilable through authorized retailers.
No, I never stated nor suggested they were exclusively available via the grey market. I only said they were often obtained through the grey market and in my experience it's very often, especially in the states where some of the European retailers that heavily discount aren't available.
That said, i want to apologize for appearing aggressive, that was uncalled for.
Fair enough and it's accepted and welcomed but I think this is one thing that bothers me about this whole discussion around Epic and the devs here and perhaps makes me want to defend some aspects of what Supergiant and Epic is doing (of course, some things about it are indefensible). I think we need to take some of the heat out of this discussion. Supergiant is doing something that is perfectly understandable and really their off-handed justifications of what they're doing maybe doesn't need to be subjected to this level of scrutiny. I don't like how angry people are getting at Supergiant over this and in general. Calling them dense, stupid, etc. Disagree or agree about their choice of storefronts there's a bigger picture here that some of the angrier responses are forgetting.
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,857
Sorry Supergiant, as many have said Epic is not providing any competition that leads to benefits for the consumer. You may be getting a nice bag of money from Epic, but I'd love to see data on the loss of revenue from reduced sales of your game. And don't expect to be able to put the game somewhere like Steam a year later at full price and get the same sales you would before.

Beyond the fact that the EGS is barebones and higher priced, I'm reluctant to trust Epic and especially Tencent with my personal data.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,800
Supergiant is doing something that is perfectly understandable and really their off-handed justifications of what they're doing maybe doesn't need to be subjected to this level of scrutiny.

I disagree. I think that their attempt to present this situation as a good thing for customers deserves to be called out and scrutinized.
 

TheTrain

Member
Oct 27, 2017
610
I disagree. I think that their attempt to present this situation as a good thing for customers deserves to be called out and scrutinized.
Yeah and I don't even get why they need to sell it as a ''good for costumer'' move. i mean, I know why they do that but still it's really irritating. I don't need anyone that tells me what is better for me, don't talk to me like I'm an idiot.
Because that's what they're doing, them and epic, and everyone else who is selling this epic thing as a good for costumer move. No its not supergiant. It's a good move for your pocket probably, but that's all.
 

Sandersson

Banned
Feb 5, 2018
2,535
Sorry, what more evidence do you want that many people buy discounted games from CDKeys? The discounts are often posted on this forum and people take advantage of them. I could trawl through dozens of Reddit posts too, if you really want, but that would be pretty tedious
I want you to quantify "often" in any meaningful way, as you already should have done in your first post. Otherwise it is just a meaningless statement based on your hunch with nothing to back it up (other than threads on resetera of which games are sold at grey market sites.)
 

tulpa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,878
I disagree. I think that their attempt to present this situation as a good thing for customers deserves to be called out and scrutinized.
Sure, but it's worth quoting the wider context of the paragraph that this sentence exists in, where I don't say that it shouldn't be discussed and scrutinized, and indeed this thread is filled with good examples of people doing that, although perhaps not every word they say needs to be picked apart in such a hostile way. What I really object to is the level of general hostility and anger that I see coming towards them for making a decision which I'm sure many of the people criticizing them would have made if they were in the same situation
I want you to quantify "often" in any meaningful way, as you already should have done in your first post. Otherwise it is just a meaningless statement based on your hunch with nothing to back it up (other than threads on resetera of which games are sold at grey market sites.)
Sorry, I just think this is a very silly post
 

Deleted member 11214

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
731
Super disingenuous from Greg.

Additionally, developing an Early Access title in what is essentially an echo chamber for superfans, the only people that are both going to be willing to buy this on the Epic store and provide meaningful feedback outside of that ecosystem, seems counterintuitive to what he claims they're trying to do with this.

I'll still buy it on Steam in a year, of course, but yeah, fuck you too.
 

Deleted member 1476

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,449
Competition is indeed great, so many good games out there that I can just add theirs to the ignore list and miss nothing.
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,093
Yeah and I don't even get why they need to sell it as a ''good for costumer'' move. i mean, I know why they do that but still it's really irritating. I don't need anyone that tells me what is better for me, don't talk to me like I'm an idiot.
Because that's what they're doing, them and epic, and everyone else who is selling this epic thing as a good for costumer move. No its not supergiant. It's a good move for your pocket probably, but that's all.
Yeah if they just said "The deal Epic offered us was very advantageous to us" I'd be way less irritated, but it is very disingenuous to frame it as a pro-consumer move.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,800
What I really object to is the level of general hostility and anger that I see coming towards them for making a decision which I'm sure many of the people criticizing them would have made if they were in the same situation

Well, if I was in Supergiant's situation and I was offered a moneyhat by Epic, I would decide by considering the monetary incentive, the potential loss of sales and the audience's reaction and I would act accordingly. If the moneyhat is big enough to offset any loss of sales, the only other factor that could make a developer decide against accepting a moneyhat is the audience's reaction. This practically means that customers have to react very strongly if they are to discourage other developers from going the same route. There is no other way.
 

Chairmanchuck (另一个我)

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,077
China
What I really object to is the level of general hostility and anger that I see coming towards them for making a decision which I'm sure many of the people criticizing them would have made if they were in the same situation

But we are not in the same situation. We are customers who can decide whether we want to buy it on an inferior client or not. And we are free to criticise their disingenious "good for the customer" stance that isn't even true, because compared to the game on Steam customers get a worse deal out of it for the most part.

Cheaper in some regions (positive)
More expensive in other regions (negative)
Customers from China cant even buy that game and now have to wait 1 year. (Negative)
Linux gamers cant even play that game (negative).
No cloud saves (negative)
No achievements (negative)
No forums to use for bugs (negative)
No Steam Community features like integrated guides (negative)
Have to pay payment processing fees in some european countries besides 3rd world countries (negative).

Besides that it is cheaper in some regions (while being more expensive in others or not even available) I dont really see any positive aspects for the customers.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,800
Just screaming competition nonsensically is fast becoming the next trickle down economics

I made a similar reference earlier in this thread. "Accept less choice and features now because it benefits developers and Epic and eventually the benefits might trickle down to you in the form of a somehow better game". No thanks. I'll take more choice and better service now instead of a maybe potentially kinda somehow better game in the future.
 

tulpa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,878
This practically means that customers have to react very strongly if they are to discourage other developers from going the same route. There is no other way.
What do you mean by "strongly"?
But we are not in the same situation. We are customers who can decide whether we want to buy it on an inferior client or not.
No one said you weren't
And we are free to criticise their disingenious "good for the customer" stance that isn't even true, because compared to the game on Steam customers get a worse deal out of it for the most part.
No one said you weren't
Cheaper in some regions (positive)
More expensive in other regions (negative)
Customers from China cant even buy that game and now have to wait 1 year. (Negative)
Linux gamers cant even play that game (negative).
No cloud saves (negative)
No achievements (negative)
No forums to use for bugs (negative)
No Steam Community features like integrated guides (negative)
I think we've gone over all this a million times by now
 

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
God, my opinions of Supergiant have fallen through the floor.

Just admit you got money for it instead of coming up with a bunch of crap excuses which don't hold up to any kind of scrutiny and make it sound like you think your entire audience is stupid.
 

EloKa

GSP
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,905
Sorry, you expect every storefront to launch with the same full features set as Steam that Valve had more than a decade to build? I think that's a very strange expectation and I dispute the idea that every new product is expected to have the exact same feature set as a competing product that has had decades to develop its features

Let's ignore the fact that Epic uses the words "compete" or "competition" in every 2nd sentence because then we would literally have to compare their store with other stores right now in 2019 and the EGS would fail to compete with any of those.

Okay when was the EGS released? Ah right, around 5 years ago. Let's compare the EGS with other stores from 2014. Is it better than those 2014 stores? Unfortunately that's still a nope. Maybe we can try to ignore the fact that Epic is a multi-billion dollar company and compare it to small stores from 2009. Is it better than those stores? Still that's mostly a nope, but we're getting there.

Well if we can't compare the state of the EGS to other stores from the last 10 years how about we compare the attitude of the 2019 EGS with the attitude of 2009 Epic Games? Oh look! It's a match:
Mike Capps: President of Epic Games 2009 said:
"If you walked into [Epic's Offices] six years ago," said Capps, "Epic was a PC company. We did one PS2 launch title, and everything else was PC. And now, people are saying 'Why do you hate the PC? You're a console-only company.'" "And guess what?" he says, "It's because the money's on console." "We still do PC, we still love the PC, but we already saw the impact of piracy: it killed a lot of great independent developers and completely changed our business model." Capps discusses the rise of free-to-play microtransaction based games, like Farmville, the "biggest game of all right now." "So, maybe Facebook will save PC gaming," he concludes, "but it's not going to look like Gears of War."

If we ignore that EGS exists already for a while, if we ignore that Epic was never interested in improving the state of the EGS, if we ignore that Epic is a huge company, and ignore that Epic already stated that they do not care about PC players: well ... the EGS isn't too shabby I guess
 

tulpa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,878
Okay when was the EGS released? Ah right, around 5 years ago. Let's compare the EGS with other stores from 2014. Is it better than those 2014 stores? Unfortunately that's still a nope. Maybe we can try to ignore the fact that Epic is a multi-billion dollar company and compare it to small stores from 2009. Is it better than those stores? Still that's mostly a nope, but we're getting there.

Well if we can't compare the state of the EGS to other stores from the last 10 years how about we compare the attitude of the 2019 EGS with the attitude of 2009 Epic Games? Oh look! It's a match:
Sorry, what? I was under the impression the Epic Games Store launched in December of 2018
Firmly, decisively, loudly, en masse.
Good luck with getting them to do it "en masse." I'm happy to buy and use games on the Epic Store and so are many others. I suspect you're a part of the very vocal minority
 

Dandy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,437
I love Supergiant games, and have bought all of their previous games on release(still haven't actually played Pyre...). So I am a fan and want them to succeed and continue to make great games!

But I find this statement condescending and disingenuous.

"Guys, we just like adventures and trying new things, like being paid for exclusivity! What an adventure. Oh and it's good for you guys too, cause competition?"

It's just straight up nonsense.
 

Jiffy Smooth

Member
Dec 12, 2018
462
I guess it's added competition in that they're now not just competing with every game available on other storefronts, but also with my complete lack of interest in ever giving my payment details to Epic. It's a contest they're unlikely to win, though.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,078
Sorry, what? I was under the impression the Epic Games Store launched in December of 2018

Good luck with getting them to do it "en masse." I'm happy to buy and use games on the Epic Store and so are many others. I suspect you're a part of the very vocal minority
EGS launched in 2018. However, EGS is an evolution of a previous launcher that has existed since 2014, and that was used for their own games (and heck EGS is mostly a modification of the fortnite launcher) and for Unreal Engine.

Still, I did not expect EGS to be the same level of quality as current Steam at launch, but if it wants to compete, I expect it to be better than Origin (the biggest rival for Steam) was when it launched 5 years ago.
You cannot excuse EGS being barebones because "it just launched" and not compare it with their rivals.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,305
Sorry, what? I was under the impression the Epic Games Store launched in December of 2018

Good luck with getting them to do it "en masse." I'm happy to buy and use games on the Epic Store and so are many others. I suspect you're a part of the very vocal minority


It opened to 3rd party games in December of 2018. But they were selling stuff before such as Shadow Complex.
 

sheaaaa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,556
Good luck with getting them to do it "en masse." I'm happy to buy and use games on the Epic Store and so are many others. I suspect you're a part of the very vocal minority

Coming up with conclusions that back your agenda based on little more than your own anecdotal evidence and cherry picked Era posts then deflecting when called out is a really disingenuous way of debating this issue. You're not worth anyone's time.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,800
Good luck with getting them to do it "en masse." I'm happy to buy and use games on the Epic Store and so are many others. I suspect you're a part of the very vocal minority

That would be very easy to prove. The developers that chose to accept the moneyhat could release their sales numbers on the service and prove you right. I bet Epic would shout any such success story from the rooftops. Curiously, no one has done so. Maybe this means that sales aren't great? Maybe the minority is not so minor?
 

thepenguin55

Member
Oct 28, 2017
11,797
With indie games and indie devs I frankly don't care how many exclusives Epic lock down because they're all currently prominently featured on the main page which is something that's become extremely difficult for indies to get on other platforms. As for AAA studios, they not only don't need a bump that one could get from a deal like this but also I think AAAs studios rarely ever actually benefit from deals like this. I'm all for indies chasing that money but it feels decidedly different when a company like Ubisoft decides to do the same thing. Also, Hades kind of helped launch the Epic store so I really don't doubt the fact that even removed from whatever amount of money Super Giant may have made just from making this deal I'm sure Hades has probably done very well (despite being early access) just thanks to the fact that it helped launch this store.
 

tulpa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,878
Coming up with conclusions that back your agenda based on little more than your own anecdotal evidence and cherry picked Era posts then deflecting when called out is a really disingenuous way of debating this issue. You're not worth anyone's time.
I'm not sure what relevance this has to the post you responded to, but it's typical of the sort of hostility that doesn't adds nothing to the discussion that I referred to earlier.
That would be very easy to prove. The developers that chose to accept the moneyhat could release their sales numbers on the service and prove you right.
There are plenty of reasons why they might not want to release sales figures. Netflix often doesn't release viewership figures, but that doesn't mean their original programs are failures. I don't think the connection you're trying to draw between success and the release of sales figures is so simple
EGS launched in 2018. However, EGS is an evolution of a previous launcher that has existed since 2014, and that was used for their own games (and heck EGS is mostly a modification of the fortnite launcher) and for Unreal Engine.
Right, I was aware of that, although I think they were rather different and it's fair to say that EGS launched in December
Still, I did not expect EGS to be the same level of quality as current Steam at launch, but if it wants to compete, I expect it to be better than Origin (the biggest rival for Steam) was when it launched 5 years ago.
You cannot excuse EGS being barebones because "it just launched" and not compare it with their rivals.
I think that's all fair enough. I think they need to get their features set worked out. But I also think it's fair to give them time to do that and I think they're trying.
 

Antitype

Member
Oct 27, 2017
439
Competition is good yeah, but Epic Store is not competition, it's a monopoly. You can only buy the games directly from them and it's more expensive than Steam for everyone but americans. And on top of it the service is nowhere near as good as Steam. It's currently not good whatsoever for customers, quite the opposite really.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,800
There are plenty of reasons why they might not want to release sales figures. Netflix often doesn't release viewership figures, but that doesn't mean their original programs are failures. I don't think the connection you're trying to draw between success and the release of sales figures is so simple

Perhaps not. But until someone decides to release sales figures, your belief that the people reacting are a minority is baseless.
 

floridaguy954

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,631
This is bullshit, Epic exclusivity is purely good for the publishers/devs. There is no net positive for consumers.
 

Chairmanchuck (另一个我)

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,077
China
Competition is good yeah, but Epic Store is not competition, it's a monopoly. You can only buy the games directly from them and it's more expensive than Steam for everyone but americans.

Thats not true. Epic store supports regional pricing in some countries that Steam doesnt offer it, ignores it in some countries where Steam offers it.
For example Epic offers regional pricing in Carribean, but not Thailand, where Valve offers it.

They just convert it to the regional equivalent of USD prices.
 

Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
I'm happy to buy and use games on the Epic Store and so are many others. I suspect you're a part of the very vocal minority

You're making this up, aren't you? We have no idea how many people are actually buying games on the Epic Store.

If you want to reward Epic for their moneyhats on pc, that's your decision. But looking at social media and forums from all over the world, it's very clear that a huge amount of pc gaming enthusiasts don't like what Epic is doing. Since these enthousiasts are very likely to spend the most money on games, no doubt this will have a noticeable impact on game sales and the reputation of the devs involved.
 

tulpa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,878
Perhaps not. But until someone decides to release sales figures, your belief that the people reacting are a minority is baseless.
As is your suggestion that they are a majority. That is why I said "I suspect," not "I know."
You're making this up, aren't you? We have no idea how many people are actually buying games on the Epic Store.
As I just said, I couldn't be much clearer in stating that it is a suspicion, not a fact based on figures.
If you want to reward Epic for their moneyhats on pc, that's your decision.
I don't. I want to play the games that I want to play. It's hardly pro-consumer for me to deny myself a game I want to play to make some ineffective statement on an exclusivity deal I hardly care about or give up a free game I want to play
But looking at social media and forums from all over the world, it's very clear that a huge amount of pc gaming enthusiasts don't like what Epic is doing
It's clear that there are a lot of forum posts about it, sure. As I said, I think that minority is very vocal.
Since these enthousiasts are very likely to spend the most money on games, no doubt this will have a noticeable impact on game sales and the reputation of the devs involved.
Maybe. Or it might just blow over as these things tend to do
 

BeI

Member
Dec 9, 2017
5,974
Maybe they got a bigger check than I thought.

It would be interesting if, after Epic stops footing bills for devs they're giving golden handshakes, devs jump ship with their money and head back to Steam because the 88% cut seems destined to become smaller once other stuff is factored in.
 

Antitype

Member
Oct 27, 2017
439
Thats not true. Epic store supports regional pricing in some countries that Steam doesnt offer it, ignores it in some countries where Steam offers it.
For example Epic offers regional pricing in Carribean, but not Thailand, where Valve offers it.

They just convert it to the regional equivalent of USD prices.

You can buy Steam keys on 3rd party stores that are cheaper than whatever is listed on Steam. In EU you're forced to pay the BS inflated MSRP, we get no discounts like the US got with Metro for example. Then in many cases, generally developing countries, they have to pay payment processor fee due to the unsustainable cut Epic takes in their race to the bottom.
 

Chairmanchuck (另一个我)

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,077
China
You can buy Steam keys on 3rd party stores that are cheaper than whatever is listed on Steam. In EU you're forced to pay the BS inflated MSRP, we get no discounts like the US got with Metro for example. Then in many cases, generally developing countries, they have to pay payment processor fee due to the unsustainable cut Epic takes in their race to the bottom.

Yeah. But that still doesnt change that there are countries where the game is now cheaper , because before the Carribeans didnt have regional pricing. You said "its more expensive everywhere but in America" which isnt true.
 

thepenguin55

Member
Oct 28, 2017
11,797
No, I never stated nor suggested they were exclusively available via the grey market. I only said they were often obtained through the grey market and in my experience it's very often, especially in the states where some of the European retailers that heavily discount aren't available.

Fair enough and it's accepted and welcomed but I think this is one thing that bothers me about this whole discussion around Epic and the devs here and perhaps makes me want to defend some aspects of what Supergiant and Epic is doing (of course, some things about it are indefensible). I think we need to take some of the heat out of this discussion. Supergiant is doing something that is perfectly understandable and really their off-handed justifications of what they're doing maybe doesn't need to be subjected to this level of scrutiny. I don't like how angry people are getting at Supergiant over this and in general. Calling them dense, stupid, etc. Disagree or agree about their choice of storefronts there's a bigger picture here that some of the angrier responses are forgetting.

Yeah, the rage in here is palatable and frankly kind of gross. The way the gaming side of this flies into absolute rage over certain things (justified or not) has always bothered me and the venom being spat at Super Giant is gross. Everyone just needs to calm the fuck down.

Just screaming competition nonsensically is fast becoming the next trickle down economics

Yo, it's video games. Not some asshole fucking over a country. Your comparison might be a tad extreme.
 

Saoshyant

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,995
Portugal
I was kind of angry when Supergiant announced this, but I could understand it: they wanted more exposure to their new game and getting money incentives to keep it exclusive sure is great for them. I am currently pissed off though they are sugarcoating the situation with bullshit like "competition is good". Just come out and state the truth. You lost money with Pyre and the Chinese government moneyhatted your new project while giving it exposure. Don't call it competition. Competition is when you actually compete with the other games on Steam and elsewhere.

But this is on top of another concern. Money from the Chinese government never comes without strings attached. Ever. Ask a bunch of African countries who lost their harbors and now use most of their fertile land to produce food exclusively for China instead of their own people. The Chinese government also loves to build backdoors on everything and everywhere in case they find something useful: what's stopping them from forcing Supergiant to add backdoors into their games even those outside EGS? Nothing, and we wouldn't know it. That's the thing with trust: the moment it's broken you can't earn it back and even if they say their future projects are clean how sure can we be?

But hey, "competition" is good.