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Survivor 39: Island of the Idols |OT| tHe iDOlz aRe fORmEr WiNNerZ
- Thread starter SoleSurvivor
- Start date
there's obviously lines that can be crossed, they crossed it here for me. i don't have to square that with the history of the show. they have to sell the product to me week in, week out. they lost the sale.
Yeah, I'm done with it, too. Like I said earlier, the cast isn't blameless (I don't remember any Missy confessionals, though Elizabeth was... bad), but production can go to hell for not removing Dan earlier. Not ejecting him after repeated incidents of non-consensual cuddling with and fondling of multiple women is so gross. Putting the onus on victims to specifically request intervention (especially when they feel they may be risking $1 million if they do so) is disgusting.
Probst: "I will never let this go!" *Proceeds to immediately let it go.*
Same.
This shit about DAN that's happening now and the women lying about using the smear to build trust is really sort of ugly and a new low for this game.
this is some icky gameplay.
and Dan should have been booted for his conduct.
this is some icky gameplay.
and Dan should have been booted for his conduct.
I don't remember who it was but one of the women told Dan the "talk" was about him and he acted surprised but if he was warned wouldn't he have already known that? Is the show just covering their ass by pretending they warned him?
He was talking to missy and elizabeth (?) in the dark after the vote and yeah that was odd. Considering how the show said that before the vote: the producers had taken him aside for a chat.
This tribal is horrible. and what aaron said was horrible. I hate this cast. Jamal is the only deserving winner right now.
OP
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Well, I'm glad he did that.
He wasn't even first in line, either - where the hell are Elisabeth and Missy's apology videos?
Didn't it say they were all spoken to as a cast and all spoken to 1 by 1? It's possible the same thing was said to everyone and if he truly was ignorant about his actions, didn't realize it was about him.
It specifically said they gave him a warning. They had a meeting as a group and then talked to everyone individually.
I actually want to ask this, as I keep seeing people stating they take issue with it:
What is people's issue with Survivor/CBS/the producers of the show? Is it that they didn't intervene sooner/kick Dan off? Is it the way the episode was edited? Do people think they should've stopped filming and said "nah that's a wrap - this is fucked" - I actually don't know. From what I can tell, they very likely asked everyone involved if they wanted to keep going (namely Kellee) and I would imagine they all said "yes".
From where I was sitting, the problem was entirely with most of the players, not the show itself (I thought it was great that the producer was willing to break the 4th wall there and talk to Kellee, and that Jeff was wanting to have that discussion openly) - but I'm hoping to be enlightened here, I'm not trying to debate it.
What is people's issue with Survivor/CBS/the producers of the show? Is it that they didn't intervene sooner/kick Dan off? Is it the way the episode was edited? Do people think they should've stopped filming and said "nah that's a wrap - this is fucked" - I actually don't know. From what I can tell, they very likely asked everyone involved if they wanted to keep going (namely Kellee) and I would imagine they all said "yes".
From where I was sitting, the problem was entirely with most of the players, not the show itself (I thought it was great that the producer was willing to break the 4th wall there and talk to Kellee, and that Jeff was wanting to have that discussion openly) - but I'm hoping to be enlightened here, I'm not trying to debate it.
I agree that most of this is all on the players. My only real thing is CBS's fault is casting, this being the first season without the previous casting person. Also that they let people swing this as all gameplay. At what point do they have a responsibility to have some kind of reputation of their own to hold. They are basically letting people talk in a way that it would seem the producers are ready to intervene and talk to people based off of one persons game move implying that everyone else is unsafe. How does CBS let that continue and let them look worse and worse? They stepped in because multiple people had issues, it was documented, they issued a warning. You can't turn around and say "Nah, she lied for gameplay sake."
I suspect they've gone into hiding due to being viciously attacked over social media.
As far as I can tell, the blowback from last night has hit them far worse than even Dan.
Lauren has been responsive somewhat although seems oblivious when justifying her gameplay last night.
Nobody was going after Aaron on social media outside of calling out his dismissive remarks (that Jamal so eloquently and expertly rebutted) during the 2nd tribal so going the apology route was an easy PR play for him.
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yeah it's definitely tough - but I also think it comes back to maybe how the player's there reacted. We saw it first-hand with Kellee, she denied wanting any sort of help/interference and wanted to continue - if nothing else, that's kind of her saying "no, we'll take it up in the game" - is it not? I agree with everything you said, though.
It's true - but I think that's because Dan was sort of considered "dealt with" - it was out in the open, he apologized (despite already being told on at least one other occasion that he was being inappropriate but continued anyway) - Jeff made him talk about it, etc. But the two women didn't say squat. The absolute least you could say for Dan is that maybe he really was completely ignorant to his own behavior (I wouldn't think so) - but what E and M did - especially given the social climate and the metoo movement, was absolutely fucked.
And true about Aaron, but I'm more optimistic and say that it was good of him to do that, despite not even being the "worst offender" of the episode.
It's really tough because it's an issue that was definitely outside the game, but some of the players made it gameplay.
Yes. Putting the onus on the victim to demand intervention when she's in a compromised position to do so (without risking a million dollars) is gross. Dan would've been immediately DQed for a single punch, so why not for making repeated non-consensual (at least with Kellee we have video/audio evidence it was non-consensual) contact with multiple women over the course of several weeks?
I don't understand what they could have done instead though - she was clearly in a moment of distress and they offered to intervene, is that not the best thing they could have done in that moment? Further to that, I imagine there were other times that the question was asked of those women - namely when they were doing their 1 on 1 interviews about it - but it was just kept off-camera. I could be wrong, though.
I don't understand your second sentence, I'm sorry.
EDIT: "Disqualified" - I'm an idiot.
Honestly I don't know what would happen in a situation like that. Would they have also asked the victim in that situation as well (if they wanted the producers to intervene)? Would the player have said "naw let's keep going"? Even still, I think they WOULD have taken him out if in that moment Kellee had said "yes, I feel unsafe" - or at the very least kept him on watch 100% of the time, etc. Who really knows.
At the end of the day, we also don't know (at least I don't) what these people agree to (on paper) when they sign up for the show. I'd be curious to know about that (i.e what is grounds for disqualification, what happens in scenario A, B, etc.).
I tend to agree but it's hard to make the call from the outside without knowing what the women said in the one on one discussions with the producers. They've seemed to turn up or down their level of discomfort with him as to what fits the situation. (outside of kelee)
I'd give me two cents, and I'm honestly a bit amazed that Missy is being treated so badly here.
From her point of view, she has a one on one with Kellee and she feels bonded. They have a two hour chat, they agree that Dan should be going home. Both feel uncomfortable. A bit later, she learns that Kellee's alliance is targeting her and the person asks her: "Do you feel safe", and she answers honestly "yes". So their plan changes and they are targeting Kellee who in Missy's eyes was using Dan to make her confident in their relationship.
So that's why I think, that Missy shouldn't be vilified so badly. From her perspective Kellee was playing a game, and learning people are targeting you - luring you into a false sense of security, I'd probably do the same thing.
I also felt the producers should have been far more firm with Dan, this is not something recent - from very early on Kellee told him she needs her personal space yet he continued to defy it. Like she said she couldn't blow up her game and her and Missy's conversation had really genuine moments. If circumstances were different they would have definitely worked together as Kellee said.
From her point of view, she has a one on one with Kellee and she feels bonded. They have a two hour chat, they agree that Dan should be going home. Both feel uncomfortable. A bit later, she learns that Kellee's alliance is targeting her and the person asks her: "Do you feel safe", and she answers honestly "yes". So their plan changes and they are targeting Kellee who in Missy's eyes was using Dan to make her confident in their relationship.
So that's why I think, that Missy shouldn't be vilified so badly. From her perspective Kellee was playing a game, and learning people are targeting you - luring you into a false sense of security, I'd probably do the same thing.
I also felt the producers should have been far more firm with Dan, this is not something recent - from very early on Kellee told him she needs her personal space yet he continued to defy it. Like she said she couldn't blow up her game and her and Missy's conversation had really genuine moments. If circumstances were different they would have definitely worked together as Kellee said.
Good point - but Missy coaching Elisabeth to lie about it to Janet, and then still voting for Janet after all of it came out - wasn't cool to me. She at least could've said at the second tribal (her and Elisabeth) - "whether Kellee was doing the same thing or not, it was wrong to use this as a means to get further in the game" - but she just kept her mouth shut as Janet was getting roasted for absolutely no fuckin' good reason.
And let's also not forget her and Elisabeth lying to Dan's face about it after the first tribal, just to throw Janet under the bus.
Sure, everyone could have handled it better.
But outside of Dan, the rest are victims of circumstance. If you are a super fan of the show, you've seen people break down and cry, you've seen some totally awful behavior(Thailand being a great example), you've seen fake tears. Missy is a self admitted fan of the game. Even though she had an emotional connection with Kellee, when being told that she is the next target - she turned her emotions off and played to survive. From her perspective she knew Dan was inappropriate, yet she was the one being targeted. Tommy & Lauren specifically told Missy how dangerous Kellee was.
And Kellee was dangerous, lets not forget she had two idols.
It's production dropping the ball, allowing things to unfold and addressing them far too late.
I saw someone on twitter say that after that episode Missy comes off as a sociopath. She is so damn cold. But she knows how to play the game, that can't be denied. This season can still be redeemed, i just really don't want to see Dan or Elizabeth in the final 3. I want to see them get voted off so bad. Time will tell.
I totally agree with you. The players are 1) operating with limited information on (and sometimes deliberately misinforming) each other, and 2) in a position where they feel saying the wrong thing (to each each other, to the camera, or one-on-one to a producer) could cost them a million dollars. Plus, playing this game and trying to balance being who you are outside the game is always difficult. What horrible behavior would you tolerate for a million bucks? Might be different for different people. Elizabeth didn't even acknowledge it as an issue. Missy could handle it. Kellee struggled with it. And Janet couldn't take it, even vicariously. None of them should have even been put in the position to find out, but production failed them.
Production had weeks of recorded evidence that Dan was repeatedly touching/cuddling/fondling women without consent. We know for a fact Kellee had directly asked him to stop, and that he had not. Even if she did not ask them to kick him off (because she thought it could cost her $1 million), they had an obligation to do so.
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Never missed an episode going all the way back to the beginning! (sorry, had to say it)
You're not wrong, but I still think some of the actions were questionable - especially since we're not talking "actual" survival, it's a game show, and it's televised. I don't know if production could've done anything, because by the time it was obvious something was going on that was more serious than originally thought - all of the events had become "gameplay". Even if when they had pulled everyone aside they had said "okay, let's move on since everyone is willing to, and let's never bring this up if everyone agrees" (I'm not saying this is best case scenario or anything, just speaking in hypotheticals) - it'd still be impossible for them to move on. Even after we were all informed that they had all been spoken to, I honestly thought that was the last we'd hear of it - but then they started targeting Dan, which DID open the door for it to be "used" as gameplay.
THAT being said, I still think Missy and Elisabeth went too far. It's one thing to vote out Dan after it had been "dealt with" because they simply don't want him there anymore, but to me it's another thing to lie about feeling uncomfortable around his inappropriate behaviour to further themselves. They could've easily just gone up to Janet and said "we're okay with voting out Dan" - instead of using the charade of feeling uncomfortable to help with the strategy, OR they could've straight up told Janet (who was only going to them because she had been told they ALSO felt uncomfortable) "it feels wrong to make this alliance for the reasons you're doing it, but we'd still vote out Dan if you want" - which would let Janet make that decision herself. Instead they lied about it and fucked Janet over. Janet was going outside the game (in a way) to help them (in a way that I'd argue is also outside the game), and they used that to their advantage.
I don't know - it's messy as hell and we'll probably all have our own way of interpreting it and thinking how it should've gone, but I do think Missy and (definitely) Elisabeth had an opportunity to air out that laundry at the second tribal but chose to stay quiet like a couple of cowards.
I agree that she seems like a sociopath based on what we've seen. Yes, some compartmentalization is necessary for Survivor but playing footsie with accusations of sexual harassment then vilifying the person who turned on her ally in order to help you feel safe is fucking disturbing. She and Liz are fucking scum and deserve to be ostracized everywhere they go. Same for Dan.
Sure, they could have blown out their own game for the sake of being on the right side of history during this tribal but I refuse to judge them on their actions tonight. If I don't see remorse from them going forward, than I will pile-on but right now Dan and production to me are the main culprits. Production had a chance to stop it.. specifically having multiple instances of inappropriate actions by Dan after Kellee had told him to cut it out. Dan could have cut it out himself but he showed his true colors at tribal... he is more worried about his job than the fact that he is forcing a woman to tears.. a woman who might I add, stood up to him and told him to cut it out.
I just think production had a chance to handle things much better - they blew it. This is what makes Survivor compelling, it would also be compelling to me to see Missy and Elizabeth be in the final two. It would be compelling for Dan to be a no vote finalist. It would be compelling for Missy and Elizabeth to be proven sociopaths but that distinction shouldn't be given out lightly. So far there has only been one person who has fit that bill and he won Survivor. I'm not ready to call Missy, Elizabeth or Lauren's actions cowardly at this tribal. Why is there such a need for women to expose themselves in front of the whole tribe and jury about their feelings, these are strangers and they shouldn't be judged by an audience that just watches edited footage put together by the network.
Lets see how they handle themselves next episode and whether they actually deserve this disdain, perhaps keep an open mind before being proven right.
this is another place they screwed it up. she shouldn't be made to feel like she has to use the mechanisms of the game to fix the game itself - that also breaks the game.
Wow, nice apology. Good on him. I wonder if "being a sexual harasser is totally normal" Dan and sociopaths Liz and Missy will follow suit. My guess is each of the three is too sleazy and too broken for that kind of introspection.
Awful human being, great survivor(I'd argue the most dominant winner)... how the fuck can you be in a final three with Brian Heidik and be less likable than him? The way he carried Jan, Clay and Ted to the final 5 was unparalleled - literally three people more unlikable than a sociopath. That Thailand cast was sure something..
I'm done with this season. Any comeuppance for Dan, victory for Janet/Karishma/Noura, or redemption for the others would ring hollow, when we never should've gotten to this point.
But I'll be checking in here to see what you and others think. The biggest villains here to me will always be Dan and production, who allowed everyone else to be put in this sexual harassment Stanford prison experiment.
Yeah, Brian is definently in the conversation for best game player in the history of the show. His game was so good it would have probably still survived (pun kinda intended) in the era of gameplay fuckery that the producers love using now.
I have to wonder how much of what's taken place in Island of the Idols impacted casting for Season 40...
Namely the decision by CBS to not invite the likes of Richard Hatch and Brian Heidik to play in their all-winners season. Those snubs seemed odd, initially... but they make more sense given the context of Dan's unappreciated physical contact and the fallout stemming from it.
He was amazing as a player. I can't tell if he and Kim Spradlin played on easy mode, or if they just made it look that way. Little of column A...
Brian was never ever coming back after the whole shooting a puppy with a crossbow thing, but yeah I can totally see them backing off from Hatch after this season.
In Brian it's pretty clear, although nothing was said at the time - I'm pretty sure there were some awful discussion between him and Clay during Thailand that were never aired. Brian is the type of guy who would stoke a racist POS like Clay because it would further him in the game. Everyone was oblivious until voted out but I believe that Brian enabled Clay - knowing him and Jan would be so awfully easy to beat in every single way. The opposition tribe saw this and they voted Clay probably knowing that everyone else was voting Brian. In the end it was a season that Survivor wanted to bury.
Brian and Thailand being universally hated after the season came out, was probably a bit of a shock to him. He probably felt rightfully that he played a flawless game, but that flawless game is the reason why no one rates One World as a great season. Top his domination off with such a deplorable cast and suddenly its like a page of Survivor most people not interested in the sociology and psychology that turned off. He didn't realize at the time that Survivor would be going decades after his seasons with multiple chances of ex-cast mates playing again. If he did his sociopaths self would have seen the value of doing everything in his power to be on All Stars instead of demanding to be paid to appear. I think that demand earned him Jeff's disdain and he was too repulsive to bring back for Heroes and Villains after shooting a puppy with an arrow..
There is no rehabilitating him with Jeff in-charge, despite being very fascinating at what he would morph into if he was ever brought back. He is 51 years old, so perhaps there is still a chance to watch him and wonder if future contestants have completely forgotten Thailand to such a degree that they trust him in the game.. I think Rob M. ended up taking Brian's spot in All Stars... so one way or another Brian has shaped the game inadvertently - who knows how All Stars would have gone if he was there
Regarding One World.. I personally haven't re-watched it but it always struck me how horribly Alicia treated Christina.
And outside of Kim.. no one was really playing - I did re-watch Thailand, so I might end up re-watching One World at some point but I honestly don't find Kim as interesting as Brian. In Kim's season it's like most of these people were just bowing their heads as Kim sharpened the knife, while I distinctly remember everyone except Jan discussing voting out Brian at some point but he never gave them a chance. Can anyone remind me if I'm recalling One World correctly? Perhaps something you might mention can propel me to watch it again.
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Great point, yeah. There was a point when non-gameplay became gameplay and that wasn't good.
I have three main issues with it really:
1. Dan should have been removed from the game the second he made physical contact with Kellee after she explicitly told him not to touch her anymore. By not disqualifying him immediately, you put the players in a position whereby they must choose whether to sacrifice their game (and potentially their public perception) in order to not be sexually harassed. This just shouldn't ever happen.
2. They should have had the sexual harassment talk immediately after it was brought up as an issue, not weeks later after repeated instances against multiple parties. It should have been made clear to Dan that he had crossed the line, it shouldn't have been a surprise to him when it was mentioned that he was the reason they had to have the talk.
3. Elizabeth making an (apparently) false claim that she was sexually harassed in order to further her game is the kind of move that should be explicitly against the rules.
On a separate topic - you really have to give kudos to Janet for how she handled herself, she was all class. She stood up for what was right, knowing that it would cost her. She somehow managed to remain calm when she was accused of lying. Lord, I hope she wins this trainwreck of a season.
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Good summary. I would love to know how specific the "formal warning" for Dan was. I suspect it wasn't much of one at all, because he barely seemed to understand that anyone had a problem with him, even after it. "Dan, we need to formally tell you to respect people's boundaries." "Oh yeah, I totally agree. I'm proud to be from the industry that started the respecting boundaries movement! I'll definitely be on the lookout for anyone not respecting boundaries." "Great. Glad we had this talk."
Made the NYtimes. It's such a shame keelee was voted out considering she was already victimised .. still she should have played her idol. Played it and said something "I'm playing this Idol for all the women in the camp" or something