Swedish muslim woman who refuses to shake hands in job interview wins case

[Jimrpg]

Members talk about being non discrimanatory, yet cant understand why someone may not want to shake hands. Is your western culture that important?

I get that this is a US centric board but there are lots of people all over the world here. In Malaysia we dont shake hands with the opposite sex. As an Australian living here, its not even an issue.

 

[SmarmySmurf]

I don't think they should have forced her to touch anyones hand, but otoh I absolutely don't support religious exemptions. And absolutely no kind of religious fanaticism that forbids shaking hands can possibly be considered reasonable or healthy imo. If she just said "I don't like to touch people" I'd respect that. "It's against my religion"? Fuck that.

 

[signal]

Hand over heart is kind of chuuni / corny tbh. Might as well greet people with this

 

[Kronvilt]

The only intolerant one here is you. A person who is so closed minded, bigoted and hateful that they're willing to punish women for believing or feeling different to them.

Like I said, it doesn't matter what or why any women or man does what they're doing, as long as it doesn't hurt or harm anyone, you can't force someone to touch someone else or risk punishment, ultimately just because you yourself are closed minded. You are essentially the epitome of what you claim to hate.

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So you've made it clear that you don't mind sexism if it doesn't hurt anyone.

What about racism? What about homophobia?

 

[Fallout 4 Master]

First time hearing about Muslims not handshaking but why make that into a big deal? I know from living in Germany that firm handshakes are highly valued, but damn.

Some people can't let things go.

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It should be part of integrating for the better, but Sweden has been difficult with this for some reason.

 

[nib95]

So you've made it clear that you don't mind sexism if it doesn't hurt anyone.

What about racism? What about homophobia?

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You keep saying it's sexist, but Muslim men aren't supposed to touch women's hands either. At least any woman that isn't their family or wife anyway (same for Muslim women). Of course most Muslim men and women do not follow this guidance so strictly.

Also, racism etc actually does cause harm to others. As in it causes direct offence or suffering, so that is obviously an entirely different kettle of fish. Not wanting to shake someone's hand, and offering a kind gesture or greeting instead, however, does not.

You're literally equating a women choosing not to shake someone's hand with a person being racist, eg hating on someone for being a certain race. It's pretty crazy you'd even try and compare the two.

 

[Drexion]

At my last job there was a female Muslim employee who refused to shake hands
No one gave a shit

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No one gives a shit until it offends the wrong person and it costs the company a million dollar contract. Many corporations rightly have strict dress and behavior codes for employees who interact with either the public or company outsiders. Working in a back room not needing to interact with the public? - sure no one cares. A job where she has to meet and greet with people outside the company? - I can fully understand why a corporation would not want her in that position.

 

[thetrin]

No one has the right to dictate a persons response to physical interactions. You do not own anyones body.

Not a particularly hard concept to understand in this day and age that people don't have absolute right to touch non-consenting individuals.

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While I see where you're coming from, literally no one is going to give someone with social anxiety the leeway to never shake someone's hand in a job setting. We'd be working through ways to get them more comfortable with doing it, because in the end, it WILL help them in the job market.

But hey, let's all say it's totally acceptable because a sky wizard told her it was bad.

 

[Kahoots]

You keep saying it's sexist, but Muslim men aren't supposed to touch women's hands either.

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Also sexist.

 

[Kronvilt]

But she's not refusing to shakes someones hand because of their gender, she's refusing to shake anyones hand and that decision was formed by her faith.

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Again... Her modified greet and compromise was a way for her to get away with sexism.

What you have an issue with is her faith, not any actual case of sexism that occurred.

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I wouldn't have an issue with her faith if I was as indifferent to sexism as you seem to be. Hence if I have an issue with one, I have an issue with the other.

Also, do you agree that refusing to shake someones hand because of gender is sexist? It's an easy question.

 

[MBeanie]

While I see where you're coming from, literally no one is going to give someone with social anxiety the leeway to never shake someone's hand in a job setting. We'd be working through ways to get them more comfortable with doing it, because in the end, it WILL help them in the job market.

But hey, let's all say it's totally acceptable because a sky wizard told her it was bad.

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At the end of the day its still their decision to want to change their behaviour if they want to improve their job prospects.

Like these employers didn't get sued because they didn't hire her. It'd be perfectly fine if it was just that, as I'm almost postive this woman like everyone has dealt with not landing a job.

 

[nib95]

Also sexist.

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How is it prejudice or discriminatory towards a particular gender when the exact same rule applies to both genders?

I like how you ignored the rest of my post as well.

 

[mugurumakensei]

How is it prejudice or discriminatory towards a particular gender when the exact same rule applies to both genders?

I like how you ignored the rest of my post as well.

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Segregating out interactions based on genders is sexist.

 

[Mindfreak191]

I don't get it, my family and myself are Muslims and we shake hands. But then I am from Bosnia and Herzegovina (Europe) which is westernized and more open minded country. I am hearing about this for the first time lol.

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Hello fellow countrymen!

On topic, the "not shaking hand" thing is more a radical thing than standard Muslim practice, nowhere is it said in the Muslim holly book that a woman can't shake a man's hand.

 

[mugurumakensei]

I’ll also say in this case. Not going further with the interview was the correct call. If she can’t follow social norms in the country she’s interviewing in, there’s no chance she will be able to work as an interpreter where part of the job is interacting with people from different cultures and generally the interpreter must adopt the norms of all the parties present.

 

[Kronvilt]

You keep saying it's sexist, but Muslim men aren't supposed to touch women's hands either. At least any woman that isn't their family or wife anyway (same for Muslim women). Of course most Muslim men and women do not follow this guidance so strictly.

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Eh... that's also sexism.

Also, racism etc actually does cause harm to others. As in it causes direct offence or suffering, so that is obviously an entirely different kettle of fish. Not wanting to shake someone's hand, and offering a kind gesture or greeting instead, however, does not.

You're literally equating a women choosing not to shake someone's hand with a person being racist, eg hating on someone for being a certain race. It's pretty crazy you'd even try and compare the two.

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How could I have forgotten... Racism actually does cause harm as opposed to sexism.

 

[Kahoots]

How is it prejudice or discriminatory towards a particular gender when the exact same rule applies to both genders?

I like how you ignored the rest of my post as well.

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The rule is innately sexist as it requires a person's behaviour towards another change dependant on the other's gender.

 

[SmarmySmurf]

You keep saying it's sexist, but Muslim men aren't supposed to touch women's hands either. At least any woman that isn't their family or wife anyway (same for Muslim women).

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That sounds sexist by definition. And absolutely not something any court should be siding with.

 

[thetrin]

At the end of the day its still their decision to want to change their behaviour if they want to improve their job prospects.

Like these employers didn't get sued because they didn't hire her. It'd be perfectly fine if it was just that, as I'm almost postive this woman like everyone has dealt with not landing a job.

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Yeah, I agree with you on that.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Segregating out interactions based on genders is sexist.

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I think a situation like this would benefit, regardless of what you believe, from a more nuanced approach to "sexism". Sticking to a dictionary definition of this kind of thing is what leads to men saying women-only {anything} organizations are sexist or that historically black colleges or affirmative action are racist.

I agree that there is a sort of apologetic progressivism that carries water too often for sexist/racist practices in certain cultures, but I also think that framing this as sexist, as if she hates men and that's why she doesn't want to touch them, is off the mark.

 

[nib95]

Segregating out interactions based on genders is sexist.

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Why if it applies to both genders? It's someone's personal choice whether they want or do not want to get physical with any gender or one particular gender. It'd be sexist to force or punish a women or man for this distinction. Also, such segregations even culturally already exist to a certain degree, eg we have separate rest and changing rooms, work rules etc. If you already acknowledge that women might not want to see men in certain scenarios and vice versa, why not accept the same for physicality?

Ultimately the religious guidance (which exists to some extent in most Abrahamic religions) exists not because of sexism, but because of what it believes are limitations to physicality with the opposite sex in order to limit further physicality, relationships etc, with both genders, not one or the other.

 

[MBeanie]

Again... Her modified greet and compromise was a way for her to get away with sexism.

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She's greeting everyone in one manner, that is not sexist. She's not doing any manner of display that would be considered sexist.

And "trying to get away with sexism by hiding her sexism" is not an argument, unless you are citing her faith as the reason why you believe this...in which case....You have an issue with her faith, not any explicit case of sexism that she conducted.

I wouldn't have an issue with her faith if I was as indifferent to sexism as you seem to be. Hence if I have an issue with one, I have an issue with the other.

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No, you have an issue with her faith, her not shaking everyones hand does not constitute a case of sexism.

Also, do you agree that refusing to shake someones hand because of gender is sexist? It's an easy question.

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If the question is simply that, yes.

You keep saying that the above is whats happening here because she has a different way she greets everyone she encounters.

You keep framing the issue specifically towards men when her actions are not limited to men at all, and her hand over her heart greeting is derived from her personal faith.

What you have an issue with is faith because there is no case of sexism here.

 

[gutter_trash]

When in Rome .

 

[joecanada]

At my last job there was a female Muslim employee who refused to shake hands

No one gave a shit

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Yeah do you think Howard stern has to put up with this bullshit when he says sorry I don't shake ?

 

[nib95]

Eh... that's also sexism.



How could I have forgotten... Racism actually does cause harm as opposed to sexism.

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Except what she's doing isn't sexist and isn't actually harming anyone. She greets everyone the same way, and is literally causing nobody any harm. Unless you think a women not automatically shaking your hand (eg touching you) because of your own sense of cultural or sexist superiority or entitlement, actually constitutes as harm lol.

 

[Kronvilt]

She's greeting everyone in one manner, that is not sexist. She's not doing any manner of display that would be considered sexist.

And "trying to get away with sexism by hiding her sexism" is not an argument, unless you are citing her faith as the reason why you believe this...in which case....You have an issue with her faith, not any explicit case of sexism that she conducted.

No, you have an issue with her faith, her not shaking anyones hand does not constitute a case of sexism.

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This is getting tiresome. Her refusal to shake a mans hand for religious reason (she says so herself) is sexist. You pretending that her compromise is anything but a way for her to get around that is worrisome. Either that or you're easily fooled.

You ignoring my question is also quite telling.

 

[Son Lamar]

Here's the thing.

She didn't decline the handshake because of gems.

She didn't do it because of ptsd.

Not because of a disability.

But because of sexism. Self proclaimed sexism. Yes the reason fucking matters.

I think someone can decline to bake a cake because they're busy, or sick. But if they decline to do it because they're a bigot, i have a problem with that

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She refused to shake anyone'shand not just a man so your whole argument is invalid have a seat stranger

 

[BowieZ]

Segregating out interactions based on genders is sexist.

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Toilets are sexist?

 

[Deleted member 20284]

I’ll also say in this case. Not going further with the interview was the correct call. If she can’t follow social norms in the country she’s interviewing in, there’s no chance she will be able to work as an interpreter where part of the job is interacting with people from different cultures and generally the interpreter must adopt the norms of all the parties present.

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Well said.

She's fine to have her own beliefs and traditions just don't expect society to bend to your every need. How this was a successful case for discrimination is beyond me, it just opens the door for her/others to expect payouts that go against the grain of commonly accepted national social norms. When you travel to another country or culture you adapt to their ways, not the other way around.

 

[John Omaha]

Toilets are sexist?

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Do you interact with a toilet beyond flushing?

 

[BowieZ]

Do you interact with a toilet beyond flushing?

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What

 

[bionic77]

Yeah do you think Howard stern has to put up with this bullshit when he says sorry I don't shake ?

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Or Howie Mandel.

It’s super easy to get people riled up or angry by writing an article about some Muslim who is not conforming to societal norms or is acting weird. On the old site it seemed like an article like this was posted at least once a month.

 

[nib95]

Toilets are sexist?

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Basically nearly all sports and a multitude of other different things too. Also, sexism specifically pertains to when one gender is discriminated against or prejudiced over the other, in other words inequality and all things related (generally, but not always against women). This specific touching guidance doesn't fall under that definition since the exact same rule applies to both genders, and the lady in question also used the same greeting with both genders.

 

[Kahoots]

Or Howie Mandel.

It’s super easy to get people riled up or angry by writing an article about some Muslim who is not conforming to societal norms or is acting weird.

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Or is a sexist and has been rewarded for it.

 

[American Eskimo]

She refused to shake anyone'shand not just a man so your whole argument is invalid have a seat stranger

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So closing your business to all customers rather than having to serve a single black man is ok in your book?

 

[MBeanie]

This is getting tiresome. Her refusal to shake a mans hand for religious reason (she says so herself) is sexist. You pretending that her compromise is anything but a way for her to get around that is worrisome. Either that or you're easily fooled.

You ignoring my question is also quite telling.

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Whatever dude, I think I've said enough and no matter how much you want to make her personal decision to not greet anyone with a handshake as sexist, it doesn't make it true and that is your own hill to die on.

Also, I literally answered your question, if you don't like the answer, thats not my problem.

 

[Owarifin]

Sounds like a great person to be a coworker with...

 

[nib95]

Well said.

She's fine to have her own beliefs and traditions just don't expect society to bend to your every need. How this was a successful case for discrimination is beyond me, it just opens the door for her/others to expect payouts that go against the grain of commonly accepted national social norms. When you travel to another country or culture you adapt to their ways, not the other way around.

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Wrong. What you're describing would constitute as something closer to a fascist or totalitarian state. You do not have to conform to all cultural norms, in fact the expectation of such reeks of entitlement and narrow mindedness. The entire point of a proper Liberal democracy is the acceptance of a range of different viewpoints, beliefs, cultures, races, nationalities and everything that comes with that, so long as laws are not being broken or people are not being harmed.

 

[Zephon]

The only underlying justification I could find is that such people actually think a handshake has a risk of temptation and arousal because of some hadith and should thus be forbidden.

Religious freedom and all, but at that point you've got issues.

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It's all about what you intent is, are you shaking hands with the intention of touching the opposite sex for temptation or arousal, If not than I see no issue, just shake hands and be done with it.

I do think it's not because of religious believes but some other underlying personal issue with the person.
I'm a Muslim and if any of my friends refused to shake hands I'd tell them stop being weird.

 

[Antrax]

Good for her. I doubt these places force women to wear pants either, but Pentecostal women generally only wear dresses or skirts.

Cultural assimilation is BS. The only thing you need to do to be a good citizen is not hurt your neighbors and pay your taxes (and ideally vote for candidates that fairly tax and redistribute your money or take care of you if you're underprivileged).

Otherwise you just get cultural fascism.

No one said force don't be ridiculous.

However the woman is forcing this company to bring backwards sexism into the workplace.

If you believe men and women shouldn't shake hands because the woman belongs to her husband, I don't want you in my company.

Its 2018.

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Interesting that you're a fan of employment being used to enforce cultural supremacy. That seems fairly capitalist!

 

[Deleted member 20284]

Wrong. What you're describing would constitute as something closer to a fascist state. You do not have to conform to all cultural norms, in fact the expectation of such reeks of entitlement and narrow mindedness. The entire point of a proper Liberal democracy is the acceptance of a range of different viewpoints, beliefs, cultures, races, nationalities and everything that comes with that, so long as laws are not being broken or people are not being harmed.

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So explain to me how it's fair for the person to have such rights but not the company to choose another person that fits their range of acceptance? Aren't both entitled to do as they freely choose?

I still find it odd in a western country where this interview took place that you call shaking hands an entitlement. I find it even more odd that you consider it narrow minded. When I travel to Japan companies literally give us an orientation of what is expected from us, culturally wise. The same occurs when I visit China. I don't go suing them or refusing their customs. I just find her choice odd is all.

 

[mugurumakensei]

Toilets are sexist?

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Is more than one person on a given toilet? Are toilets sentient? Do toilets have gender?

Most people don’t typically socially interact with a toilet as they typically don’t respond back.

 

[Son Lamar]

So closing your business to all customers rather than having to serve a single black man is ok in your book?

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Lmao I'm black myself and your example is fucking stupid what?

She doesn't shake hands end of it, if it was me I'd be all good it was a pleasure speaking with you but you guys Wildin

 

[Reverse Giraffe]

I'm seeing a lot of double standards here. You all pile on crazy christians for not wanting to be alone with the opposite sex, but applaud this woman for not wanting to shake hands with the opposite sex? Sorry, crazy religious practices have no place in western societies regardless of how persecuted they are in the world.

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I couldn't agree with you more. I've worked with (Christian) fundamentalists and they've said and done horrific things to me because of my sexual orientation. Things would definitely be better if people kept their religion as a personal matter, but if someone is a fanatic, it will be very difficult. A handshake isn't too much to ask at a job interview.

 

[RustyNails]

So explain to me how it's fair for the person to have such rights but not the company to choose another person that fits their range of acceptance? Aren't both entitled to do as they freely choose?

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I dont understand your argument. Is the company choosing people based on their culture or their skills?

 

[nib95]

So explain to me how it's fair for the person to have such rights but not the company to choose another person that fits their range of acceptance? Aren't both entitled to do as they freely choose?

I still find it odd in a western country where this interview took place that you call shaking hands an entitlement. I find it even more odd that you consider it narrow minded. When I travel to Japan companies literally give us an orientation of what is expected from us, culturally wise. The same occurs when I visit China. I don't go suing them or refusing their customs. I just find her choice odd is all.

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I can't speak for China (which is an ultra strict Communist country) or Japan, but yes, it's absolutely fair that a company should be punished for refusing employment to someone for not conforming to a non compulsory cultural etiquette, when it doesn't actually relate to their skills at the job, isn't harming anyone, and when a suitable, albeit different greeting was being offered up instead, to both genders equally. Ultimately it's a bigoted and discriminatory reason to fire or not employ someone.

If they were a doctor or a nurse or something where physical interaction of some kind was a must, that'd be completely different, but she's a translator.

At the end of the day, the courts (and by virtue, law of the land) agreed.

 

[Kronvilt]

Whatever dude, I think I've said enough and no matter how much you want to make her personal decision to not greet anyone with a handshake as sexist is your own hill to die on.

Also, I literally answered your question, if you don't like the answer, thats not my problem.

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https://www.di.se/nyheter/ad-diskriminering-att-vagra-skaka-hand/

En kvinna som inte ville skaka hand med män av religiösa skäl...

A woman who didn't want to shake hands with men due to religious reason...

I can also find you a quote in which she literally says she doesn't shake hands with men, due to religious reasons. Note also that it doesn't say that she minds shaking hand with women.

So again...

1. She doesn't shake hands with men due to religious reason. This is sexist.

2. She doesn't shake hands with women as to not offend group nr 1. Not because she minds shaking hands with women.

The second doesn't excuse the first.

 

[mugurumakensei]

I dont understand your argument. Is the company choosing people based on their culture or their skills?

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Not shaking a hand means she’ll be a terrible interpreter cause the second a man’s involved, it’ll cause a headache. In this case, her culture limits her skill as an interpreter.

 

[nib95]

Not shaking a hand means she’ll be a terrible interpreter cause the second a man’s involved, it’ll cause a headache. In this case, her culture limits her skill as an interpreter.

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You do know what interpreting is right? She could be the best interpreter in the world and not ever shake a single person's hand.

 

[mugurumakensei]

You do know what interpreting is right? She could be the best interpreter in the world and not ever shake a single person's hand.

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Yes. She has to greet people and coach people in proper etiquette between two people.