Tabletop RPG |OT| I cast a spell

kai3345

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,047
Running the Carly Rae Jepsen-themed Lasers & Feelings hack for some coworkers who are mostly new to RPGs. They all seem super excited about it, which is nice, but anyone have any tips on DMing for first-time players? Most of my experience has been with people at least somewhat familiar with the hobby.
 

Ultron

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
792
Running the Carly Rae Jepsen-themed Lasers & Feelings hack for some coworkers who are mostly new to RPGs. They all seem super excited about it, which is nice, but anyone have any tips on DMing for first-time players? Most of my experience has been with people at least somewhat familiar with the hobby.
I've found that explaining the general conversational flow of an RPG is important for new folks. Just the basics like: GM describes the situation, asks "What do you do?" - Player describes actions that their characters take, GM determines if dice roll needed etc etc. It is also good to let them know that they really can do anything that makes sense within the narrative. People can sometimes feel constrained to just what it says on their character sheets. (Not that there is that much of a sheet in that game.) Can also be important to explain that the GM isn't their adversary. You're all there working together to tell a cool story and no one is trying to "win".

Be sure to make sure everyone is contributing and spread the action around. New players can sometimes have trouble getting into the spirit of contributing and a simple question to them to pull the spotlight in their way can help a lot.

With that kind of open ended game like Laser's and Feelings it can also be fun to engage anyone that's feeling creative into the world building process. Ask them what the scene looks like, what the history of that area is, what their vehicle looks like. Etc etc.

If people seem stuck on what to do, offering up some courses of actions just to get them thinking of solutions can be a good idea.
 

StaffyManasse

Member
Oct 28, 2017
746
Question for GMs. Any specific program you use when you draw maps for your campaigns? I see Inkarnate is a thing for (generic) fantasy style mapping.

Any tips?
 

Ace Harding

Member
Oct 25, 2017
288
I just bought and have started reading Hot Springs Island... I cant wait to try running this. So dense and rich with ideas but also easy to fit anywhere into any campaign. Anyone else played/GM’d it?
 

Mik2121

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,194
Japan
These last couple nights I have been working on some papercraft to potentially use for D&D. I always do my game maps in photoshop with a sketch style (cross-hatching, etc) and always found normal or 3D printed props to have too much detail.

With this papercraft I’m trying to bring the abstraction of sketches, where not everything is drawn and not everything drawn is necessarily there, to a three-dimensional style. What do you guys think?
I would like to combine mostly 2D layouts with some of these props when they matter or would be nice to have, or for places the players stay at a lot like the inn or tavern.


If you’re on smartphone, checking my story will show a non-cut video with better zoom.
 

absolutbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,782
It looks amazing! That bookshelf looks like it has actual shelves and books with empty space instead of lines drawings.
 

Wunder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,397
Question for GMs. Any specific program you use when you draw maps for your campaigns? I see Inkarnate is a thing for (generic) fantasy style mapping.

Any tips?
I use Wonderdraft - I believe it was $20 in early access. I found it much, much better than Inkarnate and as it's a one-time purchase and not a subscription I found it immensely worthwhile. I have stopped using it recently since I'm trying out some published adventures but I heartily recommend it if you have the cash to spare. There is also a great community with tons of free assets to plug in and use without issue.
 

StaffyManasse

Member
Oct 28, 2017
746
I use Wonderdraft - I believe it was $20 in early access. I found it much, much better than Inkarnate and as it's a one-time purchase and not a subscription I found it immensely worthwhile. I have stopped using it recently since I'm trying out some published adventures but I heartily recommend it if you have the cash to spare. There is also a great community with tons of free assets to plug in and use without issue.
Oh, Wonderdraft looks - well, wonderfull. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like there is a browser client like Inkarnate. My only pc is my work laptop and I can't install anything on it.
 

Wunder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,397
Oh, Wonderdraft looks - well, wonderfull. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like there is a browser client like Inkarnate. My only pc is my work laptop and I can't install anything on it.
Ah that's a bummer. Then I think Inkarnate is the only other alternative. There are some world generators out there but I don't think they allow any real free form work that Inkarnate or Wonderdraft have.
 

Deltadan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,080
Anyone here play Mekton or Battle Century G?

Was wanting to play a Mecha themed RPG recently and felt these two fit the bill of what I wanted to do.
 

absolutbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,782
I played Mekton Z ages ago. It's built on a similar system to the old Cyberpunk 2020 system. It works, but some parts of the system are kind of unbalanced (shields vs armor and "Hot Knife Through Butter" are two that I vaguely remember), but overall if your players don't actively try to min/max it was a good system. Never tried Battle Century G.
 

dragonchild

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,975
One weird thing I discovered during my weapons & armor research:

Prior to the emergence of plate armor in the 1400s, there was surprisingly little innovation in personal gear since the Iron Age. Padded, cuir bouilli, chainmail, "banded", splint, it's all there, if not before. (Studded leather and ring mail never existed FWIW; the former is brigandine and the latter was an artistic embellishment of chainmail.) Then there were a few weapons developed specifically to deal with plate, and of course Renaissance-era equipment because it came afteward. This is a remarkably short list. So if anyone's interested in a tech level that's anywhen between the Iron Age and High Middle Ages, the entries struck from D&D5 core are:

breastplate, half plate, plate mail, morning star, rapier, warhammer

. . . that's basically it. FYI, I can't find evidence of full chain mail (just hauberks) existing prior to ~1000, but I also can't find any technical reason why the Romans couldn't manufacture a coif or chausses, just that manufacturing chainmail was a royal PITA. Arguably you can put half plate back in as a form of lamellar armor. Heavy crossbows and greatswords didn't exist in Europe until late but the Chinese had been using them since forever.

Point is, as far as campaign adaptations go, this is amazingly simple.

P.S. I don't necessarily mean historical fiction. This is more if you want to encourage a particular aesthetic. Not every Iron Age story has to take place within the Roman Empire, for instance.
 
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dragonchild

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,975
Almost like some sort of Dark Ages.
It was worldwide outside of China though, and mostly continued through the High Middle Ages. Not even the Roman Empire progressed much past chainmail, which was known in the days of the Republic. What one would expect to be a regional gap of several centuries was widespread and lasted almost a millennium and a half.

Put it another way, chainmail was basically the creme de la creme of personal armor in the 4th century BC. As of the 12th century, this hadn’t really changed.
 
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MrLuchador

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,454
The Internet
DnD Beyond's Encounter Builder is out in Alpha.


It's basically like kobold fight club. It's interesting watching them take all the ideas the popular unofficial websites have made 'essentially' and take them for their own. First Orcpub and now kobold.
 

ArkkAngel007

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,466
Anyone have thoughts on Free League's Alien or WoC/Mythics Time of Legends: Joan of Arc?

The former is interesting, though having to get a 6 for any success on top of the stress/panic/injury mechanics seems harsh. Hopefully a playtest in the next few weeks will make it a bit clearer on how well it keeps the game moving and not mired in potentially catastrophic failures.
 

MrLuchador

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,454
The Internet
You have a number of dice and rerolls to get a 6 in the Free League system, it works really well (at least in Tales from the Loop). I've preodered Alien, as I'm a sucker for things I like and the Alien franchise is one of my favourite.
 

Ultron

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
792
Yay, should be getting to play Scum and Villainy tonight at a one-shot night. I loooove Blades in the Dark, so getting to do that in space sounds real great.

I'm already thinking of the kind of preposterous flashbacks to set up nonsense that being in the future will let me try and do!
 

dragonchild

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,975
Nothing really had to change until longbows, crossbows and then gunpowder. Silly how war seems to be the biggest push for change and innovation.
Eeh? I'm having trouble parsing this. Longbows and crossbows were downright ancient weapons when plate armor was invented.

Best I can tell, there were various attempts to improve armor, but much of these efforts were isolated due to the limitations of pre-industrial society. So one army's arrows could pierce another's armor but not the other way around, for reasons that ranged from design refinement to a difference in available raw materials. I came to this conclusion because I found conflicting accounts for literally every single weapon and armor prior to the plate era. (D&D is riddled with historical inaccuracies and for the record I don' t much mind, but in hindsight, arguably the most egregious is the crystallization of "inherently superior design" in gamers.) There was a lot of thrashing around to find something better, innovation was tried, but no breakthroughs for an absurdly long time so armors such as padded, brigandine, and chainmail were highly developed by the time they were made obsolete by plate. The heyday for plate armor was relatively short because gunpowder took off, but once they licked plate, personal arms stagnated again (despite plenty of wars) with the flintlock becoming standard for some two more centuries until the Industrial Revolution re-wrote the script for arms innovation.

Plate armor -- the ballyhooed aesthetic for fantasy melee -- reigned for a relatively short time in only one part of the world. This isn't to discourage adventures based on the Late Middle Ages in Europe, for a while plate armor was awesome, but I realized almost all of my ~30 years of gaming was based on the Late Middle Ages because of plate's dominance. That left a lot of worldbuilding to wither on the vine. It's something I'm glad I learned, however belated, and it feels like a shame if some use weren't made of it.
 
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StaffyManasse

Member
Oct 28, 2017
746
The first session of my return to rpg's is happening in a few days. Getting excited and a bit nervous over my GM skills.

We were going to start with 5th edition DnD basic rules, but then I found the player's handbook and the DM's handbook from the library and also well...found a deal online and also bought them.
 

MrLuchador

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,454
The Internet
If they come back for more, you're doing great! I've discovered recently I enjoy DMing more than playing now, as that thrill of seeing the player's faces and reactions to things cannot be matched.

Did you run a module or create your own?
 

StaffyManasse

Member
Oct 28, 2017
746
If they come back for more, you're doing great! I've discovered recently I enjoy DMing more than playing now, as that thrill of seeing the player's faces and reactions to things cannot be matched.

Did you run a module or create your own?
Yeah, seeing their excitement was great. We're all still learning the rules together, but they already started to get the hang of it.

We started with Hoard of the Dragon Queen episode one, but I already had to wing it on some places. Even if I told them it's a bit of a railroady adventure, they still managed to ham it (in a good way). So far it's been a good mix of having stuff at the ready for me and having to improvise.

I can already see they gravitate to more sandboxy play and I'm already thinking we might change to something more open ended at some point, but right now we still have stuff to do in Greenest.
 

Mik2121

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,194
Japan
If they come back for more, you're doing great! I've discovered recently I enjoy DMing more than playing now, as that thrill of seeing the player's faces and reactions to things cannot be matched.

Did you run a module or create your own?
Agree so much with this. I love being a player, but that feeling you get when you come up with a world and your players get fully invested and involved in it, is so rewarding. It’s a ton of work sometimes, specially if you’re not too good (yet) at improv, but it’s so worth it.
 

MrLuchador

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Oct 25, 2017
2,454
The Internet
Oh yeah players will ALWAYS find a way to go off on one and find a random NPC that they'll take a shine to and suddenly the entire campaign becomes based around.
 

StaffyManasse

Member
Oct 28, 2017
746
So the 2nd session my players continued to obliterate the quite heavy rails the module we are going through has. But it's all good!

The way things are going I might have to rewrite the whole latter part of the first chapter of this module, but we'll see how this goes. It's good DM practice for me for sure.

It's great seeing how the characters are coming to life through both the player's role playing and their dice rolls.

Already we have a clumsy cleric who is really really awkward in his attempts to physically engage his foes. This includes missing all his shots and eventually breaking his crossbow, dropping his scythe and then hopelessly flailing down in the ground trying to strangle a cultist. And then saving everyone with his healing spells and burning enemies to death with divine flames.

And the anti-hero rogue, who always tries some scheme first, like using a hat on top of a stick to create a diversion or trying to bluff and talk himself out of every situation. And when his schemes inevitably fail, he switches to one shotting every foe he turns his eyes on. Also the player (a first timer) is a genius role player. He actually role played his character chuckling and trying to figure out if the mechanism of his hand crossbow was somehow not set up properly. In middle of battle. After just having one shotted kobold to death with the said crossbow. It was because he had forgot to add the weapon skill modifier into the damage and needed to ask if he indeed needed to do that.

For my self I feel like I am not describing the locations and the actions in vivid enough detail. I think part of it comes from having to improvise so much, but I hope this is something I can get better at.
 

MrLuchador

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Oct 25, 2017
2,454
The Internet
For my self I feel like I am not describing the locations and the actions in vivid enough detail. I think part of it comes from having to improvise so much, but I hope this is something I can get better at.
I used to feel the same way, the good thing is you're thinking about areas to improve on already. So, in time you'll start to improve and create a flow in your mind on how to set each new scene.
 

StaffyManasse

Member
Oct 28, 2017
746
I used to feel the same way, the good thing is you're thinking about areas to improve on already. So, in time you'll start to improve and create a flow in your mind on how to set each new scene.
Hope so! I believe it might get easier when the mechanic side sits so well I don't really have to focus on that part as much.

_____

On another vein, those of you that use rule systems / worlds that are not in your native tongue (like our group. we communicate in Finnish and use rules and source material that is in English). How much do you translate? I mean we get by using the English stat names and spell names etc. for clarity, but I feel like I at least want to translate the different names like regions, surnames, various monsters etc. and sometimes it's a bit of a struggle.

To me it's a bit of an immersion thing. I feel like having one or two words in English in middle of my sentences really breaks the flow. It would be easier if they were truly foreign names, but English is such a familiar language to all of us, that it's just a little jarring. I imagine it would not be an issue if the foreign language used was a bit more, well, foreign. Like I'm sure if I'd DM for English speakers and used Finnish names for places, NPCs and monsters it would sound very foreign and fantastical to the players.
 

Mik2121

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,194
Japan
Hope so! I believe it might get easier when the mechanic side sits so well I don't really have to focus on that part as much.

_____

On another vein, those of you that use rule systems / worlds that are not in your native tongue (like our group. we communicate in Finnish and use rules and source material that is in English). How much do you translate? I mean we get by using the English stat names and spell names etc. for clarity, but I feel like I at least want to translate the different names like regions, surnames, various monsters etc. and sometimes it's a bit of a struggle.

To me it's a bit of an immersion thing. I feel like having one or two words in English in middle of my sentences really breaks the flow. It would be easier if they were truly foreign names, but English is such a familiar language to all of us, that it's just a little jarring. I imagine it would not be an issue if the foreign language used was a bit more, well, foreign. Like I'm sure if I'd DM for English speakers and used Finnish names for places, NPCs and monsters it would sound very foreign and fantastical to the players.
How do you guys call things like Middle-Earth, or locations like Castle Black or King's Landing in Game of Thrones? If it's all in English, then maybe stick to it since that will still sound more natural?
I know in Japanese they used to translate everything to Japanese words (Nakatsu kuni for Middle-Earth, for example) and it seems to be a mark of old style RPG that Dark Souls and a few other games kinda brought back, so if I was DMing in Japanese I'd translate, also in Spanish (my native tongue). I DM in English though, so I just stick to English words anyway (mixing old English and some Elvish-sounding words inspired by Tolkien's works).
 

StaffyManasse

Member
Oct 28, 2017
746
How do you guys call things like Middle-Earth, or locations like Castle Black or King's Landing in Game of Thrones? If it's all in English, then maybe stick to it since that will still sound more natural?
I know in Japanese they used to translate everything to Japanese words (Nakatsu kuni for Middle-Earth, for example) and it seems to be a mark of old style RPG that Dark Souls and a few other games kinda brought back, so if I was DMing in Japanese I'd translate, also in Spanish (my native tongue). I DM in English though, so I just stick to English words anyway (mixing old English and some Elvish-sounding words inspired by Tolkien's works).
It's a mix of both. Generally, if it's something from a book well known enough to have been translated to Finnish, like Tolkien's works, we would probably use Keski-Maa (the literal translation of Middle-Earth) as Keski-Maa is what we all know. Suddenly speaking about Middle-Earth would be *very* jarring to us I think. Same goes for most films and television series. Winterfell is Talvivaara because that's how it's translated in the books (I think) and in the show.

One thing that just came to my mind is that before the next session I might tell my players that every name I say in English is Common and I haven't translated it to Finnish for them. :)
 

Mik2121

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,194
Japan
It's a mix of both. Generally, if it's something from a book well known enough to have been translated to Finnish, like Tolkien's works, we would probably use Keski-Maa (the literal translation of Middle-Earth) as Keski-Maa is what we all know. Suddenly speaking about Middle-Earth would be *very* jarring to us I think. Same goes for most films and television series. Winterfell is Talvivaara because that's how it's translated in the books (I think) and in the show.

One thing that just came to my mind is that before the next session I might tell my players that every name I say in English is Common and I haven't translated it to Finnish for them. :)
I see, does Talvivaara mean something? (Winter...fell?). I might use that name for some village on the campaign I’m running...
 

StaffyManasse

Member
Oct 28, 2017
746

dragonchild

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,975
As a change of pace we've started up a "cop comedy" 5E mini-campaign formally based on the Keystone Kops. But since we are actually trying, it winds up being something more like Patlabor or (according to the DM) Terry Pratchett's Ankh-Morpork City Watch. My PC is a barbarian loosely based on Natsumi Tsujimoto from You're Under Arrest. Our collective backstory was, we were put through a week's training and then sent off on our first patrol.

We're still working out the feel. I'm playing up the woefully inadequate equipment & training (I intentionally didn't spend much of my starting money so I'd be missing critical gear) but combat is another beast. We're not out to get killed so sabotage is a bottomless pit to be actively avoided, but dice are always gonna do their own thing. So far it's kind of more trying our best while minimizing the heroics and emphasizing the dorfs. For example, when we fought a rampaging construct in a crowded marketplace, we kind of held back incompetently until it started damaging a cured meats stand, at which point my barbarian flew into a rage. Then we started missing like crazy (I got back-to-back nat-1s) so I mixed a laugh track into the BGM stream.
 
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StaffyManasse

Member
Oct 28, 2017
746
dragonchild that sure sounds like some next level shit. I love it.

It will probably take years untill, if ever, my group is ready to move on to stuff like that, but I hope we are in it for a long time.
 

StaffyManasse

Member
Oct 28, 2017
746
Double posting but eh, it's been a few days.

We had our third session and it feels like I managed to crank up the atmosphere a bit.

One player kept forgetting the game mechanics he had already memorized the least session and I assume it was because he was so much in his character. It was fun seeing how he was on the edge of his seat because the tension of the situation the group was in and it spilled into his role playing too with his character being more nervous. When the session ended and he told how his character sat down on a river's edge and took out his tobacco with shaking hands I could feel that was him as a person finally relaxing and letting go the tension. I think his own actual hands were shaking too.

There were also heroics to be seen. The group had been avoiding one particular enemy because they were sure it was too difficult of a fight, but when they had to face it (because of their own choices - I didn't push it) one player put on some great rp and topped it with a natural twenty. Enter one bloody dwarf and the foe they had been anxious about dead at the first round of combat.

Good times!
 

Mik2121

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,194
Japan
Sounds great. No matter how good or bad everything else is, players enjoying it trumps all. And it sounds like you achieved that.

How long are your sessions? If you’re doing 3ish hour long sessions and have done 3 already in about a week or less, that’s some impressive pace! I’m also a bit jealous you guys get to gather so frequently...
 

StaffyManasse

Member
Oct 28, 2017
746
Sounds great. No matter how good or bad everything else is, players enjoying it trumps all. And it sounds like you achieved that.

How long are your sessions? If you’re doing 3ish hour long sessions and have done 3 already in about a week or less, that’s some impressive pace! I’m also a bit jealous you guys get to gather so frequently...
We are doing shorter sessions. The first one was little under three hours, but the two others that took place evenings before work mornings were hour and a half each. And we are not gathering around physically (that would be nice though), it's all using voice chat. This seems to work well for our group as we all have children and responsibilities, but some free time after the children go to sleep.

I just told them I can keep this pace (three sessions in four days!) one or two another sessions max before we need to take a longer break so I can plan a bit ahead. But yeah, we're excited!
 

Keasar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,392
Skövde, Sweden
Just heard that there is a new edition of Shadowrun coming!

Always loved the world of Shadowrun but the ruleworks have kinda felt thicker than a giant slab of steel to get into, anyone know if there is anything out there about it? Have just found "easier to play" as a short description.
 

Fonst

Member
Nov 16, 2017
2,113
Busting out some HEX this weekend, got to brush up on the rules and pulp stuff.

Anyone else use HEX?
 

bear force one

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,305
Orlando
Just heard that there is a new edition of Shadowrun coming!

Always loved the world of Shadowrun but the ruleworks have kinda felt thicker than a giant slab of steel to get into, anyone know if there is anything out there about it? Have just found "easier to play" as a short description.
The new Beginner Box is out at some vendors. There are some really good interviews and a live play on Shadowcasters Network on Youtube and Twitch.
 

StaffyManasse

Member
Oct 28, 2017
746
Funny. I just placed a late pledge for Carbon 2185 the other day to scratch that cyberpunk itch. But I don't mind, I enjoy the DnD 5ed. system and I suppose I can always homebrew elves and orcs etc. into Carbon if my group feels like it.
 

dragonchild

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,975
I haven't heard anything but I hope I can be forgiven for being skeptical. They've been trying to fix Shadowrun for over twenty years; at some point "we'll get it right this time" becomes hard to take seriously.

Great setting, mediocre writing, terrible mechanics. Same as it ever was. . .
 

Keasar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,392
Skövde, Sweden
The new Beginner Box is out at some vendors. There are some really good interviews and a live play on Shadowcasters Network on Youtube and Twitch.
Gonna have to check them out then, see what they say at the moment.
Funny. I just placed a late pledge for Carbon 2185 the other day to scratch that cyberpunk itch. But I don't mind, I enjoy the DnD 5ed. system and I suppose I can always homebrew elves and orcs etc. into Carbon if my group feels like it.
Interesting.Hadn't heard of it but will keep an eye on it now for when they hit launch.
I haven't heard anything but I hope I can be forgiven for being skeptical. They've been trying to fix Shadowrun for over twenty years; at some point "we'll get it right this time" becomes hard to take seriously.

Great setting, mediocre writing, terrible mechanics. Same as it ever was. . .
Yeah that's been my experience. I have the 4th edition rulebook and reading through it, I just absolutely love the setting of the world, but man, those rules are not friendly.
 

Brashnir

Member
Oct 25, 2017
847
I haven't heard anything but I hope I can be forgiven for being skeptical. They've been trying to fix Shadowrun for over twenty years; at some point "we'll get it right this time" becomes hard to take seriously.

Great setting, mediocre writing, terrible mechanics. Same as it ever was. . .
Agreed. They need to basically scrap the entire thing mechanically in order to fix it. Trying to make it resemble previous editions in any way will lead to it still being a mess.

Of course, on the other hand, the people who have stuck with Shadowrun through all these editions apparently like that end of it, so completely revamping it will end up alienating those people.

They're in a no-win situation. Just play the Savage Worlds or Cypher system Shadowrun adaptations if you want to have fun with the setting without dealing with the mechanics.
 

chironex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
416
We sure did!

I think I did okay for my first time as a DM. When I told the party "...and this concludes our session for tonight" there was a spontanious "noooooooo" from one of the players and we scheduled the next session for tonight. Looks like I have some work to do. :)
Congratulations! Tuesday night I'll be DM'ing for the first time in over 20 years, to a bunch of complete beginners. One guy I play Gloomhaven and other stuff with regularly but he's never played a tabletop rpg. It's been a long road back, I think it was nearly two years ago I bought the DnD starter kit and then PHB. So pretty excited to finally get to the table.
 

StaffyManasse

Member
Oct 28, 2017
746
Congratulations! Tuesday night I'll be DM'ing for the first time in over 20 years, to a bunch of complete beginners. One guy I play Gloomhaven and other stuff with regularly but he's never played a tabletop rpg. It's been a long road back, I think it was nearly two years ago I bought the DnD starter kit and then PHB. So pretty excited to finally get to the table.
Nice! I'm sure you'll have great time too.

Not sure if it's just confirmation bias but it feels like a lot of old farts returning to tabletop (any other non-digital hobbies like miniatures and tcg's) lately. This seems to be the case in my circles at least.