Tangledeep |OT|: SNES-style accessible roguelike full of cool

Oct 26, 2017
1,671
#1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0N3sEuRJ_I

What is Tangledeep?

It's a fairly traditional but accessible roguelike (so 'turn-based', one hero, random maps, hack & slash in a fantasy world) with a JRPG/SNES art style, that is fascinating me with its set of features for a low price. I want to recommend it, therefore, this thread.
It's done by an indie dev called Impact Gameworks. It released on PC some months ago, and it's coming for the Switch on January 31 2019.

In a way **this post is going to be spoilery** (in gameplay), it feels better to play the game and discover some of the things you can do for yourself as you progress, so you've been warned. The only way to not being spoiled is playing the game. Or not reading this, I guess...

Let's start from the beginning.

**Jobs**



-There are 12 jobs (classes), that are decently original, instead of being tropey (so no warrior, archer, wizard, not even necromancer and barbarian). For example you have the Brigand, the Floramancer, the Spellshaper, the Budoka, the Edge Thane... of course they are their takes on known concepts (scoundrel/assassin, summoner, blade mage, monk, etc)
-The jobs are fairly well designed, with different starting weapon, stat bonuses, with a special job passive that can be upgraded, and 10-13 abilities, 10-11 of them active abilities. There are even more abilities you can gain (see below), in that regard it's a roguelike more focused on ~active things~ than in proc chances and lots of passives.

An example of upgredeable passives, as you see they also can include new active abilities.

-Three of the jobs have to be unlocked first, but it's done on the first 5-6 hours of play. Although I don't like they are only unlocked for your current save slot, and not the others.
-You can change your 'current job' in the game, allowing then for multi-classing. Floramancer/Hunter for example is something you can do.
-The job progression is fast, so you don't have to wait several hours until the gameplay gets engaging, a flaw in other roguelikes.
-There are job trials, with three tiers to do, which are fun dungeon challenges that you have to finish with some limits (use skills only of that job, only 5-6 health potions, only can use 3 consumable items, no pets). Finishing them give you a special item with effects designed for that job. They even allow for customization as each has two options. Example, the Brigand:

-Unrelated to jobs, but the character also has two starting feats, three of the possible feats have to be unlocked first with achievements.
-And when you level up, apart for choosing one stat to improve, every five levels you get a new perk for your health flask, with two options every time.

Job summary
Brigand: Assassin/scoundrel class. Synergy with daggers & stealth.
Floramancer: Summoner/mage class. It controls the battlefield with plant-based walls & traps.
Sword Dancer: Warrior class. A graceful swordwoman, synergy with swords.
Paladin: Tank class. Synergy with heavy armor & shields.
Budoka: Monk class. Synergy with fists (unarmed).
Hunter: Archer class. Synergy with bows.
Spellshaper: Wizard class. Synergy with staffs.
Edge Thane: Warrior/bard class, she self-buffs with songs. Synergy with 2-hand weapons.
Soulkeeper: Necromancer class.
Gambler: RNG class, lol. Random effects, you can risk your HP for some advantages and use money as attack.
HuSyn: Tech-based warrior that uses a deployable. Small synergy with spears.
Wild Child: Clusterfuck class. A melee fighter that learns diverse abilities from the monsters, so she has a bit of everything. Small synergy with claws.

**Progression, Options & Difficulty**

-It isn't a hard roguelike, it's much more accessible from what I'm seeing. It isn't a game where you are supposed to die 20 times in random ways before you accrue enough veterancy in the game and start having a real chance of beating it.
-There is a bit of meta-progression, you keep the town status & what is in the bank (gold & items stored by your previous character) for the newer characters. But it isn't a game like Rogue Legacy, Dead Cells or Dungeonmans where it's the central feature, and you need to 'grind' to lower the game difficulty enough.
-There are a good number of starting options to control the difficulty, from game mode (Adventure/Heroic/Hardcore, Adventure you die and respawn in town with half good and less xp/jp, Heroic is normal permadeath, Hardcore is like Heroic but you don't have the meta-progression) to special modifiers that make the game easier and harder. Although there is not a straightforward difficulty option like 'enemies are 20% tougher'.
-Related to difficulty, you can find on your adventures a chest called 'Pandora Chest', with better loot than usual and extra xp. In exchange... they raise the difficulty of that floor, and raise slightly the difficulty of the entire world (by 1.5% or something small like that). Not a lot, but after 15 chests is going to be +15%.
-There is a New Game+, interestingly you can choose if to reset the Pandora Chest counter, or continue it (so the new game will be harder).
-It has a decent amount of system options, some of them useful like enemy health bars, zoom level, verbose combat log, ms delay for movement, custom keybind, support for keyboard, gamepad and mouse, etc:
It seems silly to show that, but the previous roguelike I played didn't have a controls menu :/.

**Pets**

-You can capture monsters. First you have to lower their hp and then use a special item, a bit like in Dead Cells with the Hunter's Grenade.
-Once you have the monster captured, you have to increase their happiness level with food, until their monster level, then you are allowed to use them as pets.
-You can only have up to 12 monsters captured, and even if you don't bother with the pet system having them give you a combat bonus against them.
-When the pet dies, it automatically comes back to the Town, but it loses its happiness level and it's pissed with you for 3 days. You can pay insurance for your pet to avoid this and being able to use it again instantly.
-Pets have disliked and liked foods, to improve their happiness faster, but you have to experiment to gather the info.
-You can groom the pets to improve their looks, and give them special 'romantic' food to increase the love between two pets. Once it's high enough... they can breed and create a random pet!
-Later in the game, you can pay in JP to learn a new ability for your pet.
-You can free captured monsters, and depending on their happiness, they may give you one of their abilities to be used in another pet.
-Pets, apart from being fun addition to the game, are a smart money sink, something usually needed in a RPG. You need to buy the capture item, later you have to groom them (money) & feed them (more money to buy ingredients) and finally pay insurance (still more money) if you don't want to lose their happiness level. Still, all this is optional because you don't have to use pets.

**Weapons & Items**


-This isn't a roguelike with hundreds of weapons and items, there are 10 types of weapons with 7-8 different weapons names (ie: pocket axe, hand axe, battle axe, bloody axe...) each.
-On the other hand they feel more unique than in other roguelikes, apart from damage/range/rank/rarity, and the obvious random attributes they can have (140 different affixes in total), every weapon type has an unique effect. Maces can stun enemies and damage them by 10% of their hp, polearms can root enemies, claws do extra damage based on the hp you recently lost, etc.
-Every weapon type also has associated a weapon mastery, which are three more abilities you can pay to get, and can use as long as you are using that weapon type. You don't pay with gold but with JP (job points, xp points associated to a job)
-And finally you also can get a ultimate ability after getting the full weapon mastery of a type, but here there is a limit: characters can only learn one weapon ultimate.
-There is a side quest in a special dungeon you can complete to get an armor mastery, a passive ability related to a type of armor (light/medium/heavy). You can learn only one of them.
-There are unique legendary weapons and gear sets, as it's tradition in these kind of games.
-There is a good number of items (not equipment for your character), around 150, between consumables (dozens of recovery or buff items), offensive use consumables (molotov, caltrops, etc), summon items (summon a allied monster) and misc items (shovel to destroy a wall section, teleportation scroll, etc)
-The equipment menus has both filters for your items, sorting features (a-z, rarity, value) and they are even searchable with a textbox.
-Unlike most traditional roguelikes, it has four slots for weapons, they appear on the quickbar, and there is no penalty to change weapons.
-There are items that once equipped in the misc slots give you new active abilities too (pebble pouch gives you a throw rock ability, nordic helm give you a shout ability).
-The weapon upgrade system is... pretty damn cool but it will be even longer to explain: Introducing the Dreamcaster.

**Dreamcaster**

-It's the equipment upgrade system. You have to spend a uncommon object, an orb, with each use.
-There are more types of orbs than the normal one, like Lucid Orbs (extra affix to the item), and Skill Orbs (extra effect only associated to a specific skill of a job, so it may be useless to you).
-You can also pay JP to increase the chance of having a new affix, in addition of the item power upgrade.
-Upon activation, you can enter in the item you want to upgrade, a kind of dream world associated to the memories contained in the object. It's a random dungeon with a difficulty that depends on the item level and a series of modifiers that depend on the random attributes the item had. On top of that, sometimes there is an extra global modifier like 'enemies are berserk' or 'costume party!' (enemies sprites are exchanged). Because it's a dream world and it's all weird!
-There are special monsters, or void tiles (damaging floor) used in these dungeons.
-There are also crystal auras, zones of the world with a color, that have an effect (ie: player cannot use abilities, healing effects are doubled, etc)
-You can find consumable items in the dreamworld, but they are 'dream items', and disappear once the dungeon is finished. A way to promote using the consumables you find over others.
-Because you are entering into an object, you won't have that object with you in the dungeon. It's interesting because usually it's going to be one of your best items, so it's a smart way to make the dungeon slightly more difficult.
-You also use the dreamcaster to remove an affix you don't like, and in exchange obtain a shard, gather 3 for a Lucid Orb.
-And then there are the nightmares... sometimes in the dungeons there are Nightmare Prices, if you defeat them you will finish the dungeon and won't get the new upgrade for the weapon, but will have a shard. Gather enough and you can gain a Nightmare Orb, which allow access to Nightmare dungeons, with a special boss that give items with nightmare affixes.

**Monsters**

-There are almost 70 different monsters, a respectable number, although not as big as in other roguelikes.
-However, I feel they are better characterized here than in other games. Apart from damage, range and base stats, they have their own active skills and attributes. Attributes can be things like 'immune to mud' or 'calls for help' or 'run at low health', while the abilities are interesting attacks, debuffs or movements. Charge, flame circle, forcefield, hop, smoke bomb, etc.
-Monster have an aggro range, that complements with the stealth stat in the game, to allow for some build more based on stealth (basically, fight without pulling mobs, or even some monsters will stay neutral).
-Some of the abilities give you a 1-turn warning so you can try to evade, you see what tiles are going to be affected, or who is going to get attacked, Into The Breach-style, and you act accordingly. It really gives it a more tactical
-There are elite monsters, four tiers of them in fact, and have assigned unique attributes and abilities, something that reminds me of Dead Cells too. They usually have some elemental resist, and one or two extra abilities, like health regen, summon allies, phasing, whirlwind (summon tornadoes that can pull you), throw spinning blades, and a long etc.

**Mechanics**

-You can plant seeds to get trees in a garden in the town, they give fruits to recipes, or xp by chopping down the trees. Later you have access to a Cart where you are paid for the food most in demand.
-There is no 'free' resting mechanic, not even free healing in the Town, nor auto-rechargable mana. There is a priest in the Town who can heal you via gold, but the price increase for each use, until it resets when enough time passes.
-You have a single health flask with several charges (this game somehow reminds me of Dead Cells), which is a good idea to avoid the clutter of health potions. You find fountains in the dungeons have give you 2 charges to the flask if have less than 25, and 1 charge otherwise. That's the main healing method, apart from foods.
-In between dungeon floors, sometimes you find a small room with a side quest, or a new npc, or more commonly, a campfire. You can use it once to rest and recover your health/energy, or use it to cook a special consumable for later. The campfire disappears after use.
-Because there is recipe system, where you can discover new recipes, in scrolls or by experimentation, mixing foods and even optional seasonings to craft even better foods.
-There are Rumors, that are random sidequests system, like 'go to x floor and kill y' or 'defeat x champion in y' or 'give x food to y enemy', etc. Sometimes they have conditions like 'don't receive more than x damage' or 'don't use more than xxx steps in the dungeon'.
-You can be blessed in the Town after some gold, to gain temporary an stat bonus.
-There are some environmental effects in the dungeons, like water affect the ranged defense in general and the electrical damage or mud that can root you.
-There is a small curious mechanic, every x turns you win a free turn or action whereas enemies don't act. There is a stat that improves how many turns you need for it.
-The game promotes gambling, because there is a casino with a shop with legendary items and high levels hit but they only accept their casino tokens as payment. You gotta plays slots, dice or blackjack to win them :/.

There is an idiom in English, about 'embarrassment of riches', right? I think it really applies to the current indie market, because we have games like this, charming, well designed and full of content, and the price isn't $35 or even $25... it's $15. 12.5€ in Europe. Crazy. And that's the price without any offer.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/628770/Tangledeep/
https://www.gog.com/game/tangledeep

More links

https://twitter.com/TangledeepGame
https://discordapp.com/invite/4q5kjUm
http://tangledeep.wikia.com/wiki/Tangledeep_Wiki

Notes

YMMV, but the game can look a bit nicer if you remove the retroness.
Game by default:


However, you can zoom out a bit and disable the fake overscan lines, and play like this


Q&A

Q: I'm being killed more than I should, wasn't this game more accessible than other RL?
A: Make sure to use pets to help tank enemies. The whole breeding pets part is more grindy but that is optional, however it's very useful to have at least two pets at decent level. Why two? To cycle them, put a wounded pet back in the corral and take the other one for a while while the first heals. The first game there will be a tutorial quests to get a frog. It's a good pet because it has the ability to heal itself, helping it tank more.

Q: How long is a run?
A: Near 20 hours for the first complete run, but it can be much faster when you have some town unlocks already done (no need to do the sidequets), and you use the equipment and money left by another character, of course.

Q: I can't hit the enemy with my horizontal line spell, oh how I wish there was a vertical line instead!~
A: Press R to rotate some spells or abilities effects 'patterns'.

Other hints

-In the Dream world, remember you have dream consumables that will disappear, so use them often. Even more, if you have defeated the king and you are going to return to the real world, remember to check what dream items you have, and if you have health or energy recovery items, use them in that moment before summoning the portal.
-Some classes have some synergy with a weapon type: Sword dances with swords, hunters with bows, brigands with daggers, monks with fits, etc. So take that in account when choosing weapons... that said, almost every character should have some other weapons, like a spear to attack enemies 2 squares away and a bow to attack 3 squares away. Because using another weapon is a 0-turn action, there is no penalty to use this tactic.
-Mostly ignore the difficulty floor indicator on the top left corner. It seems champions spawn depends on other factors different that what put the label to the floor, I have seen 'Hard' champions in 'Easy' floors, because the floors were high enough. In fact always read what level is an enemy champion because of that, from time to time the game spawns way harder champions than they should (I've seen champions in floor 15th with level 14 and champions with level 11 in floor 17th), just run away from those.
-Take care in special of some their special abilities. There is one called drain that drains 20% of you hp in one attack, and it can be used multiple times. Icedaggers are the 4 blue ice things that surround a champion and they hurt a lot, just stay at range and wait a few turns until they despawn.
-If you are going to save scum... the game autosaves every time you enter in a floor, so you can alt-f4 if you die unexpectedly and reload the game, if you don't advance from the message window you are presented, it doesn't overwrite the autosave.
-If you have problems in the late game, remember you there is a bifurcation in the Branching Vista, with one path going to the Ancient Ruins and the other to the Stonehewn Halls. Ancient Ruins have more chests than normal, and Stone halls have more fountains than normal, so you may want to do both to collect everything.
-In the sidequests dungeons, you have to kill a specific enemy or get an item, whatever, and then return to the npc that was at the start of the map to get a reward. But remember that also if you clear the floor of enemies (something possible, because unlike normal dungeon floors, they don't respawn here), you will get a JP bonus and sometimes a chest will appear in front of you with goodies.
-Turn on the health bars for you and the monsters. This option should be on by default!
-Buy all the Butler's Bells you see around, the price of 3 summoned foods is usually superior to the price of the bell (200g).

Expansion

There is an expansion coming, Legend of Shara. Coming Feb'2019. From Steam
https://store.steampowered.com/app/953080/Tangledeep__Legend_of_Shara/

Shara's Story: A new tale in the world of Tangledeep with a unique story, boss encounters, and new gameplay!
A 13th job, the Calligrapher, armed with two weapons, elemental scrolls, and devastating combo attacks!
Increased level cap: from 15 to 20! With this new level cap comes even more powerful items and challenges to discover.
Dozens of new monsters with new powers! You can capture and tame them, too!
Begin your ascent in Riverstone Waterway instead of Cedar Caverns: a new early-game path with slightly more challenge and greater rewards.
Encounter the Mysterious Wanderer and explore Wanderer's Journeys: entirely new dungeons with bizarre creatures, scenarios, and treasure.
Discover ancient Relics, rare items with limitless combinations of legendary powers and bonuses!
Strange new Item Dreams that twist and warp areas you've already visited with new events, monsters, items, and objects.
Unearth Runes of Knowledge, a set of tablets that teach special abilities not found anywhere else!
New monster sprites, tile sets, layouts, item graphics, effects, and music!
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
Turin Turambar
Oct 26, 2017
1,671
#3
Holy shit OP, you put a lot effort in this.
I take a look at this since I'm going through my retro phase right now.
Kind of recycling effort in fact, I used the same thread in another forum :P.


I guess I forgot to put a 'OT' somewhere in the title. And maybe add 'PC/Switch' at the end. Mods?
 
Nov 12, 2017
1,057
Buffalo
#4
Great post OP; I can only add what I posted in the Switch eShop thread: this is one of my favorite games of 2018 and will be one of my favorite in 2019 thanks to the fantastic class system, the outstanding music, the killer art design and presentation, and the tight roguelike battle system.

It's not a JRPG, but captures the spirit* of Final Fantasy 6 and Chrono Trigger better than any JRPG I've played in the last 15 years. The DLC is exciting, the Switch port is a godsend, and I can't wait to see what the devs do with the game next. The support they offer this game is top tier. Run into a bug? Run into a balance issue and you want to suggest a fix? Need help with strategy? Have a corrupt save file? Head to the Discord channel and ask them for help; the devs and a great group of support members are always there to chat: https://discord.gg/kuc4mF

Seriously a class act all the way around.



* by "spirit of" I mean that it captures the same kind of excitement I felt playing those games. the aesthetic and the music and number of systems and abilities to uncover is genuinely exciting and doesn't feel like another trip round a Final Fantasy-derived class/job/battle system. the mood is just right and the presentation on par with anything Square's managed to do with its 16-bit legacy since they murdered their pixel art department.
 
Last edited:
Jun 17, 2018
253
#5
Aside from playing a little bit of Chocobos Dungeon on Wii I've never played a rogue like but between the aesthetics of this, the in depth mechanics, and your awesome thread, it's going on my wish list. Maybe when I get my yearly bonus or taxes back...
 

Auctopus

Self-requested Ban
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,073
#10
Nice to see a high-quality OP on gaming-side for once, great job.

By the looks of the menu system, it looks unlikely that this will come to console (it's coming to Switch). Might have to cop on PC for once.
 
OP
OP
Turin Turambar
Oct 26, 2017
1,671
#12
Well, I find doubtful they are doing an expansion and a port to the Switch, and somehow won't release the expansion to the Switch version. Surely they will also release it?
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,814
OR
#13
You pretty much sold me, OP, I'd seen this game mentioned several times in the Roguelike thread, but now it's officially going on the wishlist. Thanks!
 
OP
OP
Turin Turambar
Oct 26, 2017
1,671
#14
Some more info about the expansion


It seems the second campaign will have a different progression system. random skills from a pool, and jp to pay for base stats?


Some new relics


On the other hand, fuck this hardcore shit. 50 floors lol.

Also, it's known the new class will be a Dual wielder, a mix of close fighter with area spells with lingering effects.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,596
#17
I really wish I could get along with the gameplay-system of Rougelikes because the way this looks and sounds is right up my alley and you made it sound like a great game too, I wishlisted it for now :)
 
OP
OP
Turin Turambar
Oct 26, 2017
1,671
#18
Well, at this point I played well enough to judge the issues of the game. Because every game have them :)

-Pace. The game is imo too long. We are talking of 20 hours for the first run, a bit less on the following ones. The game is 24 floors + 12-15 of side dungeons + whatever number of floors you do in dream items, and some of them can be up to 5 floors. In total around 50 floors to do.
That’s fine for a game you are going to play one or two times, but for a game that is supposed to be very replayable (random dungeons, random items, random champions & rumors, a dozen of classes), it had been better idea a shorter length to use better that replayability.

-Difficulty balance. The game difficulty isn’t as well adjusted as I would like. Part of it it’s the variable length, part of it the randomness.

For the first part, it can make the game too easy for the middle 25% of it. The game won’t scale the floors content to the player, as because the game designer didn’t know how much side content the player is going to do nor at what point he is going to do it, in the end it’s easy to out-level the main story content of the game if you explore every side dungeon, do semi frequent rumors, and are basically a completionist player. There are some mechanics to be sure they player won’t outlevel a lot the game, he gains less and less xp in the content that it’s too easy for him, but even then, you can outlevel several floors in the middle of the game by two or three levels, enough to make them boring. It seems the game trust on the caps (hard player level cap at 15, and a cap for job skills as you can only have 16 active and 4 passive ones) to make the endgame not trivial whatever the player does, and it mostly works, but the issue still persists, in the previous floors before the ‘endgame’ (the last four or five floors).

The second part is the opposite, instead of the game being too easy, sometimes it’s too hard. It’s more rare, but from time to time the pure randomness of a roguelike can bit you in the ass. That’s ok-ish in a roguelite where a run is 70 minutes, but less ok when the run is 20 hours. The issue is the champions and their randomness, sometimes a floor have zero champions, sometimes they have three. Sometimes they are separate, sometimes two fo them can be close enough as they move around randomly, so once combat starts, you may have to fight two fo them. Their level also varies a bit (-1 to+1?) of what it should be, sometimes they are ‘very hard’ and sometimes they can be ‘impossible’, all this means sometimes you will fight two harder than usual champions.
And finally add their champion abilities are random, and some are better and more deadly than others. And they have up to four of them, so you may have a champion with several of the ‘mean’ ones. So all these random factors can produce up encounter that are much more harder than the rest of the game.

-The game had a good amount of variation in key aspects, like biomes, player classes, enemies, iteminization… still, at the end of the day, it’s a hack & slash. It gets repetitive. This is more wish listing, but I think what is missing maybe it’s a bit more environmental effects and interaction. The game has a few ground tiles with effects (mud, lava, water), it wouldn’t hurt to have a few more types. And traps, thing like triggerable fire traps or spinning blades or a rolling boulder, something that other RL have done but are totally missing here. I think they can be fun, if you can use them at your advantage, against the enemies, too.
 
May 16, 2018
88
#20
Amazing OT - thank you OP! As a huge roguelike fan I plan to buy day 1 on Switch. I appreciate the negatives shared as well. A little disappointed to hear the Switch version doesn’t include the new expansion but apparently it will include the new starting area option (waterway) after you beat the first boss. The dev said they may bring the whole expansion to Switch later at one time or they may add in parts of it over several updates.
 
OP
OP
Turin Turambar
Oct 26, 2017
1,671
#21
New Update

ART/VISUALS
When an ability reserves Energy or Stamina, this is now reflected on the main HUD

BALANCE
Resistance-piercing effects obtainable by the player now apply to elemental damage dealt with weapons as well as abilities
Lower rank gear should now appear slightly less often if you are fighting harder monsters / exploring higher level areas
Effects that involve stealing food items now steal a random item, rather than the latest item
Increased drop chance of quivers, books, and shields in the master equipment loot table
Certain champion powers like “Boost Morale” and “Regeneration” should no longer be spammed out-of-combat

BUGS
[around 45 bugs fixed]

CONTENT/GAMEPLAY
Four new optional Game Modifiers available! Remember, these can be accessed in the Feat Selection menu at character creation. They are as follows:
Free Job Changes (job changes cost nothing at Percy)
No Job Changes (you cannot change jobs anywhere)
Fewer Powerups (BASE powerup drop chance is lower)
Goldfrogs Anywhere (chance to find a Goldfrog anywhere on the main path)


MOD SUPPORT
It is now possible to create “GAMEBALANCE” mod files in any mod. This lets you change various multipliers: hero damage, monster damage, XP gain, JP gain, gold gain, loot drop rate, magic item chance, orb drop rate, powerup drop rate, powerup healing, pet XP gain, pet damage, monster density, and monster respawn rate!


QUALITY OF LIFE
Sped up animations that appear at the top of the menu screen on first open. This will also hopefully help solve a bug where this ‘block’ could disappear without the menu closing.
When friendly monsters are defeated, you should now see (and hear) their red fadeout effect
Ice blocks summoned by Ice Missile now use smaller sprites that are colored like player’s Materialized Ice (etc) to differentiate from enemy blocks.
The bandit NPC in the Bandit Enclave now has a “swap position” option
Adjusted opacity of tornado effect to make things a bit easier to see
Default Cursor Repeat Delay is higher now. Should feel better.
When holding a direction and opening a dialog or menu, there will now be a pause before the dialog or menu keeps scrolling, until you return the keys/controller to neutral. This helps the cursor feel less ‘slippery’
I remark the Mod support because I've made a few. I will publish them soon enough (tomorrow?)
 
OP
OP
Turin Turambar
Oct 26, 2017
1,671
#24
Sorry for the 'spam', but let me write a bit about the mod I've made.

First, this is it, Turin Condensed Campaign

You can read inside the intention of the mod, how it works, etc.
Basically, I tried to do a shorter, more condensed experience to play a single job, still maintaining the variety of types of floors, improving the pace and the balance of the game. In addition, it's a bit harder than the main campaign.
If anyone can give me feedback about it, I would be happy.



That said, now it comes the boring part.

Let me talk about the sunk costs fallacy. Because I started the mod basing it in a sample dungeon mod from the devs, with the intention of making a dungeon run for myself. I saw the xml structure of the mod, and it seemed super easy to do, just copy and paste some sections, modify some values, edit some id numbers, test it works, and baaam done in a pair of hours !
Well, you know how it's any software development. Unexpected problems appeared one after another, I underestimated the amount of time needed to balance it (and I wanted something better and better as I developed it, to), and in the end I needed not 2 hours, but six days to do this. If I had known from the start the amount of work I guess I wouldn't have made it, but here it comes the sunk costs fallacy. As I already had invested 7 or 8 hours of my time when I started thinking 'mmm maybe I should forget this shit', if I dropped it to cut my losses, that 7 or 8 hours would have been a waste if I didn't finish it and release it, so I continued and continued, until the time investment was more like 10x of my initial thought, lol.
Because the entire dungeon counts as a side dungeon, at some parts I had to even invent some workarounds to deal with how the game passes days, or how you obtain orbs, I talked with the dev for some stuff (that new possibilities for modding in the last update? that was me ), and playtested to check the balance.

In any case in the end I'm happy with the result, the mod more or less fixes most of my issues with total length, pace and uneven difficulty, while tweaking things to a 'experienced' player level, without going overboard.
Because the mod is a totally experience linear without alternative branches or sidequests (with the exception of the dream dungeons, that also are limited), you can control the difficulty progression better than the base game does, and as the experience is notably shorter than the base game, you win:
-less gold
-less xp (you don't reach the cap, in fact)
-less jp
-less health charges (and no fireplaces between floors)
-notably less orbs
-most rumors aren't in this mod dungeon, so that's also another source of resources nullified

Adjusting the economy and progression balance in a more 'tight' way. Money is a bit more important, in the base game once you were high enough it was no concern. You have enough jp to buy a full job and a weapon mastery, but not enough to take a second full job. You have enough health charges and food to finish the dungeon, but not enough to end it with 40 extra unused flasks. And more importantly, there shouldn't be floors where you are mopping the enemies with autoattacks without even looking what they are.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,174
#25
Wow, this looks awesome. If money wasn't so tight at the moment, I think I'd be in on the Switch version if it's good.
 

TheGreenArrow

lmayo
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,542
#27
Really digging this so far! The last rogue like I randomly bought wasn’t really fun at all (Unexplored) and I already lost an hour to this game and am pleasantly surprised by this.
 
Oct 29, 2017
756
#29
Think I’ll buy the Switch version today - port is apparently really good. I’m excited to dive back into the game, too — loved it on PC last year. Hopefully it finds a bigger audience on Switch.
 
Oct 25, 2017
750
#30
The developer behind this game, Zircon, is a well known remixer (from OCReMix mostly). That's why the music's so good in the game!
 
Oct 27, 2017
748
London
#32
How do you keep your pet alive without burning through food left and right? They seem to level up at a snail’s pace as well. Should I even both with them on the first few sections?
 
OP
OP
Turin Turambar
Oct 26, 2017
1,671
#34
How do you keep your pet alive without burning through food left and right? They seem to level up at a snail’s pace as well. Should I even both with them on the first few sections?
They heal when you heal (although less amount). You can put it back in the corral pet before it dies, and it will recover hp in time there.

What pet are you using? The reality is that the best skill for a pet is the autohealing, which have the frog they give you in the tutorial.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,464
#35
Ok, I love FF6, CT, JRPS, 16 bit era pixel art, but not a fan of most "rogue likes". Often times they just feel like the dev cheapened out with the randomness and they get frustrating. With that, I enjoyed dead cells, even though I hated the timed doors, could never freaking make it in time. Is there stuff like this or any of the other excessive randomness and cheap tactics in this game?
 
OP
OP
Turin Turambar
Oct 26, 2017
1,671
#36
Ok, I love FF6, CT, JRPS, 16 bit era pixel art, but not a fan of most "rogue likes". Often times they just feel like the dev cheapened out with the randomness and they get frustrating. With that, I enjoyed dead cells, even though I hated the timed doors, could never freaking make it in time. Is there stuff like this or any of the other excessive randomness and cheap tactics in this game?
Well, the game is less frustrating than the average RL because you can't deactivate permadeath, and modify the difficulty with a bunch of settings. And hell, even if you don't do any of that, the game isn't particularly hard. It's even too easy at times.


PD
Timed Doors in Dead Cells aren't intended to be reached in normal runs. They are there for people who want to skip some levels by rushing them. If you do that, then reaching them is pretty easy.
 
Oct 26, 2017
288
#37
Just bought this today and loving it. Been playing for a few hours straight on my sword dancer.

I have a question and can't really seem to find an answer. Without getting too specific, how tough are the job trials? Not sure if I should jump into the first one now or wait until later in the game. I just finished the second boss for reference.

EDIT: Nevermind, I went in blind. Nearly died lol. I then died a bit later in the ruins. Trying Budoka start now. I'm loving the game though. I really enjoyed Sword Dancer quite a bit and will probably workout a build for it next run.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
Turin Turambar
Oct 26, 2017
1,671
#38
I've made three new mods!

Hard Mode
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1650084633

As it says in the tin can, this mod increases the difficulty of the game. All very straightforward, just a combination of slight increases and decreases of damage, xp rate, gold rate, etc.

More Monsters
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1650110964

There is an alternative way to change the game than just tweaking stat numbers, and some will say this is more fun. For people who want more action, but don't want the rest of difficulty increase from the Hard Mode.
Just put more enemies on the game, instead of making them tougher or making you the player weaker! The mod only increases the numbers slightly, but I didn't want to go overboard with it because I noticed that from the times I die in this game, a fair number of them is when I attracted too many enemies and they surround me and deprive the player space to move around.
Interestingly, the mod should balance itself, as having more enemies means also a bit more of xp/jp/gold to win.

Many More Weak Monsters
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1650110519

Following the previous logic of 'more monsters to fight is fun!', we can think that even more monsters will be even more fun! And thus, this mod is born. This time their numbers are increased by a bigger amount, however to make things not too crazy (it's supposed to be an alternative way of playing, not a hardcore mode) their damage is lowered by 30%. Even then, if you do the math, the result should be a net increase in difficulty. Remember too they have abilities that don't do damage but may pull you, debuff you, etc, none of that is nerfed, nor their HP.

My collection of mods
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1650117784
 
Feb 14, 2018
507
#39
Just got Tangledeep last night. This thread is a great resource, thanks for all the work you put into it Turin. One question, is that mallet you use to get pets single use? There is one for sale for 200g but I wasn't sure if that meant each pet will cost 200g to tame. This game is really fun so far, and I can't wait to uncover more.
 
OP
OP
Turin Turambar
Oct 26, 2017
1,671
#40
Yes, 200g in the pet shop for a single use... but from time to time you can find mallets in other shops for 100g, so be aware when it appears. It also can be obtained as normal loot, of course. As long as you use the mallet at 15%hp or less (there was an upgrade that increased it at 20%, but it was pretty late in the game), it has a 100% chance of capture.