Telling people they shouldn't vote this year is irresponsible and shows your privilege.

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Altairre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
721
The thing is, voting for Biden is telling the Democrats that you are happy with the status quo, that you would vote for anyone even a rapist if to improve things marginally. They will never improve if that's the message they receive. Of course, it's the responsibility of the voters to not vote for someone like biden on the first place as a nominee, I'm not forgetting that, but the DNC are also only interested in the status quo and I do believe that needs to be shattered. I'm not interested in baby steps, small progression is easily erased as these last 4 years proved. I want big changes, that's what I'm gunning for.
Hillary lost and Democrats are about to nominate someone worse. I wonder how often they have to lose before they nominate someone that isn't. I fear that we don't have that much time left.
 

BlueBomberX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,797
I am so sick of people trying to tell others what they should do with their vote and that they're wrong if they don't do what they say. You have your one vote. Use it how you want and leave everyone else alone.

I won't be voting. Neither is a good candidate. We have an idiot that may have sexually assaulted people going against a senile idiot that allegedly raped someone.

Not voting is a vote for no one. It's not an automatic vote for the person you personally don't want to win because talking points and trying to pressure people. It's a statement of its own. Also, my state is always overwhelmingly blue. A non-vote, if you want to say it counts at all, is always for blue in my state, and this will be different depending on the individual.
 

thewienke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,416
I chose Bernie.
People on here: "He can't get anything done because he's too idealistic"
Now it comes out that Biden is a rapist.
People on here: "I guess they're too idealistic to vote for Biden."

ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?!
Maybe I'm missing something here but the logic tracks.

Both Sanders and his die hard supporters are too idealistic now that the choice is down to Biden or Trump. There is no option C.
 

Eeyore

Member
Dec 13, 2019
2,145
Maybe this board, not the country.
Hahaha if you actually think this country isn't a mess, oh my god.

Maybe I'm missing something here but the logic tracks.

Both Sanders and his die hard supporters are too idealistic now that the choice is down to Biden or Trump. There is no option C.
Oh you're just missing basic empathy for people not wanting to vote for a rapist.

Also I guess you don't understand the process of how a nomination happens since BIDEN ISN'T EVEN NOMINATED YET.
 

Heromanz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,311
This whole thing is so ironic. How many times have us Democrats call
Out a republican rapist or racist whenever. But when push comes to shove and our own party nominations very people that we were calling out instead of getting angry we get complacent we got to step in line.
 

Kaguya

Member
Jun 19, 2018
3,500
You need to understand that any path for Sanders winning the nomination outside of Biden literally dying is impossible at this stage. I see a lot of "Sanders only needs 1100 of the remaining 1700 delegates to win." Without really understanding what ot would actually take for him to win that many. Winning that many delegates would mean winning ALL future contests by MORE THAN a 60-40 split, something that is mathematically impossible with the early voting which has already been accomplished and heavily favors Biden. There is no Hail Mary saving pass that will save Sanders anymore. I voted for Sanders, I still donate to his campaign, and I agree with Biden on little as far as policy. At the same time, Trump is a threat to the literal continued existence of our country and the people in it.
It's not about Sanders or even the DNC primary, if the DNC isn't willing to put a candidate people can vote for guilt free, you can't blame people for not voting. Just few months ago some were entertaining the idea of not giving Sanders the nomination even if he ends up in the lead, now is the time to flex that power for the right cause.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,936
JFC now we're on to "this will be on your head"? When has it ever been okay here to support rapists to such a degree?
i dont blame anybody who abstains from voting on this basis. I just wanna know if you think there is anything else bad that happens in the world beside rape that could maybe alter that decision making progress?
There was one good thing on the menu and I ordered it. But the restaurant said, "Sorry, not enough people ordered that to justify us making it today. I guess everyone's appetite for shit is just too strong."
I mean, yeah. That's just how it is.
 

Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,825
Yup. This thread is completely disengenuous and overlooks the fact that the DNC can and should kick Biden to the curb. But hey, let's guilt people into voting for an alleged rapist and overall shitty candidate.
Yup. It’s pretty frustrating to see people here acting like we have no other option. The primary isn’t over. Get Biden the fuck out so we have a chance to beat Trump in the general.
 

Zyae

Member
Mar 17, 2020
65
Yeah just like in 2016 when we had Obama and people didn't vote in their damn local elections and Trump got the nominee anyways. So it's not ALL on president as we just saw and you're saying that's objectively false which in itself is objectively false.

How about when Biden loses all his midterms and he finally gets a chance to put someone up in 2022-2024 and republicans just block it again until they win 2024.

No it is all on the president. Obama could have forced the issue but he figured Clinton had a good shot of winning and probably rightly assumed that forcing the issue would hurt her in the election, it was also the last year of his presidency. We have never had a senate refuse to confirm any SCOTUS nominee for an entire presidential term, it would lead to the president packing the courts and a constitutional crisis and end up in SCOTUS who would rule that The Court could become vacant due to inaction by either of the other branches.
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,753
I suppose I would have thought that after all the harm and horrible things Trump has done over the past four years that we've had thread after thread after thread on that we would all be excited to a person to get a chance to vote him out.

Is this what normalization looks like when we equate a Biden presidency to being just as bad as a Trump presidency so what's the difference?
I don't know if this board is representative of much of this country except in one thing.

Most voters latch on to a few issues and those are the most important thing to them. You can see how it is hard for people who Biden does not represent to give him their vote. Even if that means possibly more Trump (and they usually want it both ways, saying their vote would not make a difference or the difference between the two candidates is not big enough for them to care).

This thread shows the classic difference between Republicans are Democrats. Even for a Republican that absolutely hates Trump they are still going to show up to vote for him and eventually they will fall in line and start to support him. For Dems it is just hard to get them to vote and be loyal to the party (which honestly ultimately might even be a good thing).

No matter what its going to be a super close election. And people are going to pissed off 6 months after the election and the cycle will begin again.
 

Lord of Ostia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,629
i dont blame anybody who abstains from voting on this basis. I just wanna know if you think there is anything else bad that happens in the world beside rape that could maybe alter that decision making progress?

I mean, yeah. That's just how it is.
Of course there is, that's why many victims will still vote for them while trying not to get sick in the voting booth. Doesn't make the victims who refuse to vote for Biden privileged though, being raped/abused is not a privilege.
 

Kasumin

Member
Nov 19, 2017
568
There was one good thing on the menu and I ordered it. But the restaurant said, "Sorry, not enough people ordered that to justify us making it today. I guess everyone's appetite for shit is just too strong."
That's incredibly disingenuous as we're already well into the primary process before this news came out.

The difference is, there is a real person on one and a theoretical million people on the other far down where you can't even see for sure there would be damage. Those theoretical millions could potentially be on the track of the rape victim as well depending on what it means to vote in a rapist. It could set back the me too movement and cause a lot of harm. Then there's climate change happening where regardless of who's president of the USA is going to destroy the world.
It's not theoretical! We're in the middle of a pandemic and Trump has already shown that he's perfectly willing to let millions of Americans die if it makes the economy look better. Have you been paying attention at all?

Oh cool, so you've already taken the defeatist position. Cool. Not even worth engaging with, then.
 

DickGrayson

Member
Jan 30, 2020
799
Y'all should just join me in the land of "All Powerful Old White Men Have Probably Sexually Assaulted Someone"

It makes these false moral equivalencies much easier.
 

supra

Member
Oct 30, 2017
303
Witholding your vote is the only power you have against this corrupt shell of a party that will do anything it can to keep special interest money flowing.

Too many people's ill-gotten livelihood is at stake to pass sensible legislation to actually improve conditions for the people at the bottom.
 

Kasumin

Member
Nov 19, 2017
568
I am so sick of people trying to tell others what they should do with their vote and that they're wrong if they don't do what they say. You have your one vote. Use it how you want and leave everyone else alone.

I won't be voting. Neither is a good candidate. We have an idiot that may have sexually assaulted people going against a senile idiot that allegedly raped someone.

Not voting is a vote for no one. It's not an automatic vote for the person you personally don't want to win because talking points and trying to pressure people. It's a statement of its own. Also, my state is always overwhelmingly blue. A non-vote, if you want to say it counts at all, is always for blue in my state, and this will be different depending on the individual.
Cool, so you learned nothing from 2016. Nice.

Even before the rape accusation Biden was garbage and people ignored it. He has a well-documented career of being an absolute shitbag.
And? If you're waiting for a perfect candidate that's a total angel, you're going to be waiting for a long goddamned time.

I point out that people didn't have this information these past few months. You say, "Well, he was a shitty person anyway." Being shitty doesn't disqualify someone from being a candidate. A lot of people said Hillary was a shitty person, too. You've just shown that you would've pushed this position regardless of these accusations.

Bernie is good and has great youth support. Young people didn't show up in the primaries.
 

Sidebuster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
955
California
That's incredibly disingenuous as we're already well into the primary process before this news came out.



It's not theoretical! We're in the middle of a pandemic and Trump has already shown that he's perfectly willing to let millions of Americans die if it makes the economy look better. Have you been paying attention at all?

Oh cool, so you've already taken the defeatist position. Cool. Not even worth engaging with, then.
Nah, there's still that third track. You are the one pretending it doesn't exist.
 

Kasumin

Member
Nov 19, 2017
568

RedMercury

Member
Dec 24, 2017
10,487
i dont blame anybody who abstains from voting on this basis. I just wanna know if you think there is anything else bad that happens in the world beside rape that could maybe alter that decision making progress?
Oh yeah, no doubt.
And? If you're waiting for a perfect candidate that's a total angel, you're going to be waiting for a long goddamned time.
I think there's a vast difference between a perfect candidate and a rapist. We're not talking about a minor policy position. It's not hard to like just not rape people, most people are able to do it.
 

BlueBomberX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,797
Cool, so you learned nothing from 2016. Nice.



And? If you're waiting for a perfect candidate that's a total angel, you're going to be waiting for a long goddamned time.

I point out that people didn't have this information these past few months. You say, "Well, he was a shitty person anyway." Being shitty doesn't disqualify someone from being a candidate. A lot of people said Hillary was a shitty person, too. You've just shown that you would've pushed this position regardless of these accusations.

Bernie is good and has great youth support. Young people didn't show up in the primaries.
Funny cause it sounds more like you don't know how to read. Clinton won my state in a landslide.

Tell me, how would my vote have changed anything? Oh, that's right, it wouldn't have.

Get off your high horse.

We need better candidates. You want to support the status quo by voting for a rapist, knock yourself out. Just know you're a rapist supporter.
 

Kasumin

Member
Nov 19, 2017
568
Funny cause it sounds more like you don't know how to read. Clinton won my state in a landslide.

Tell me, how would my vote have changed anything? Oh, that's right, it wouldn't have.

Get off your high horse.
It sounds like you can't distinguish between the individual level and the collective level. Just having the mindset that your single vote doesn't matter is foolish. It is highly unlikely, but elections have come down to one vote. Trump won by a small margin in three swing states. Your one vote does matter. The mindset that voting matters.

If you adopt the mindset that your one vote doesn't matter, you risk spreading that mindset to others. Collectively, voters matter. You can never be sure if your single vote will matter. So you vote anyway.
 

jay

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,425
Isn't the argument that it's not about my feelings generally used by the alt-right? That doesn't make it logically unsound, it's just a little weird to see it here.



I suppose this is both a reason and a threat.
You're a dreamer if you think any capitalist leaders will fix this problem and not just mitigate as people die.
 

thewienke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,416
I don't know if this board is representative of much of this country except in one thing.

Most voters latch on to a few issues and those are the most important thing to them. You can see how it is hard for people who Biden does not represent to give him their vote. Even if that means possibly more Trump (and they usually want it both ways, saying their vote would not make a difference or the difference between the two candidates is not big enough for them to care).

This thread shows the classic difference between Republicans are Democrats. Even for a Republican that absolutely hates Trump they are still going to show up to vote for him and eventually they will fall in line and start to support him. For Dems it is just hard to get them to vote and be loyal to the party (which honestly ultimately might even be a good thing).

No matter what its going to be a super close election. And people are going to pissed off 6 months after the election and the cycle will begin again.
It's probably because, despite having the largest voting base, the "Democrats" are really two parties in one. Non-crazy moderates/conservatives and progressives. The progressives push the energy but they're actually a minority in their own party.

In my experience you're right that most people are wedge issue voters. Republicans make it real easy for their voters by basically being the party of "lower my taxes", "don't take my guns", and "abortion is murder". Three simple issues that encapsulate a whole lot of America. And if you're racist or bigoted we've got that too. Lets throw libertarians who are just looking for gridlock to slow the growth of government in there too because Congress is great at not getting things done.

Whereas I don't think Democrats are even aligned on wedge issues. Abortion rights, gun control, and taxation all have really wide interpretations in the Democratic party. Hell, immigration, health care, education, military spending, diplomacy, etc. also have various interpretations within the party.

So I understand the frustration of progressives because they're always having to cater to the moderates but the alternative is pretty awful.
 

Wazzy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,567
I hate Biden. I think he is one of the worst nominees the democrats have to offer and would rather Warren or Bernie win.

The fact some people would risk another Trump presidency is mind blowing. You'll only get two choices. Biden or Trump. If you refuse to support the democratic choice then you get Trump. If being morally righteous about not supporting a rapist is more important than preventing a racist, sexist, LGBTphobic, nazi sympathizer, rapist, conspiracy theorist, climate change denier, refused to acknowledge a pandemic, classist and anti-human rights monster then you have seriously fucked up morals.
 

Blue Skies

Member
Mar 27, 2019
7,968
Funny cause it sounds more like you don't know how to read. Clinton won my state in a landslide.

Tell me, how would my vote have changed anything? Oh, that's right, it wouldn't have.

Get off your high horse.

We need better candidates. You want to support the status quo by voting for a rapist, knock yourself out. Just know you're a rapist supporter.
The status quo is anti democracy pro white supremacist traitorous republicans.
Joe Biden is not that.
I will be voting for Joe Biden the Democrat, not Joe Biden the person.
 

Dreams-Visions

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
20,471
Miami, FL
The thing is, voting for Biden is telling the Democrats that you are happy with the status quo, that you would vote for anyone even a rapist if to improve things marginally. They will never improve if that's the message they receive. Of course, it's the responsibility of the voters to not vote for someone like biden on the first place as a nominee, I'm not forgetting that, but the DNC are also only interested in the status quo and I do believe that needs to be shattered. I'm not interested in baby steps, small progression is easily erased as these last 4 years proved. I want big changes, that's what I'm gunning for.
Communicating desire for change vs the status quo is what the primaries were for, not the general. The voters have spoken.
 

Barzul

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,398
No. It is choice that will send a clear message to Democrats if enough people make it. That message being "if you ever want to win another election, you need to do fucking better. Period."
What did the Democrats learn from 2016? Nothing really. What you say will happen, won’t happen. American history makes that pretty clear.
 

Kasumin

Member
Nov 19, 2017
568
Well no, I'm not the one advocating voting for a rapist. So I'd say you're the one full of shit.
I've spent time explaining my reasons. As I've said, the Republican Party essentially has a gun to my head regarding my future.

I don't care if you think I'm full of it. Republicans have placed me in a position where I am scared for my life. I will do what I can do make sure that they are not in a position to make me and those I love suffer.

I'm not advocating for a rapist. I'm advocating against the party that has gone full fascist. I'm sorry that you can't distinguish between these two.
 

Orb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,302
USA
And? If you're waiting for a perfect candidate that's a total angel, you're going to be waiting for a long goddamned time.

I point out that people didn't have this information these past few months. You say, "Well, he was a shitty person anyway." Being shitty doesn't disqualify someone from being a candidate. A lot of people said Hillary was a shitty person, too. You've just shown that you would've pushed this position regardless of these accusations.
Yeah, I already didn't want to vote for Biden before the accusations.

"There are no perfect candidates"

"It's always the lesser of two evils"

"Every option is shit"

That is absolutely not true and the idea that things can never be better is why we even have candidates like Biden in the first place.

You guys wanna talk about propaganda? That's the propaganda. The propaganda is that nothing you do matters. The issues don't matter. Healthcare for all doesn't matter. Treating working-class people with basic human dignity doesn't matter. None of this will ever pass anyway so don't bother voting for an actual progressive candidate. We'll give you the next person in the Democratic dynasty and you'll like it.

Trump doesn't have to fund some super-secret social media army to influence people not to go to the polls. The lame-ass Democratic candidates do that well enough on their own.
 
Aug 12, 2019
1,368
I've seen way more people concerned about those people choosing not to vote than I ever have people genuinely saying they wouldn't. It's starting to feel performative at this point.
 

Eeyore

Member
Dec 13, 2019
2,145
I hate Biden. I think he is one of the worst nominees the democrats have to offer and would rather Warren or Bernie win.

The fact some people would risk another Trump presidency is mind blowing. You'll only get two choices. Biden or Trump. If you refuse to support the democratic choice then you get Trump. If being morally righteous about not supporting a rapist is more important than preventing a racist, sexist, LGBTphobic, nazi sympathizer, rapist, conspiracy theorist, climate change denier, refused to acknowledge a pandemic, classist and anti-human rights monster then you have seriously fucked up morals.
Repeat after me.
BIDEN IS NOT THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE FOR PRESIDENT YET.
BIDEN IS NOT THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE FOR PRESIDENT YET.

There is still a chance for voters (unlikely) and/or the DNC (even more unlikely) to do the right thing here. But I'm too idealistic says defeatist people on this board who just throw up their hands and vote for a rapist.
 

DickGrayson

Member
Jan 30, 2020
799
This. Has. Nothing. To. Do. With. Pride.

Many people here, including me, have been RAPED. You're pressuring us--bullying us--into voting for a rapist?

Fuck you
It's certainly a tough moral dilemma for those who are more personally affected.

The trolly problem metaphor is extremely apt, you don't want to feel responsible for the act of voting for an accused rapist so you'd rather not act and let the trolly continue on it's way toward an admitted rapist.

Moral clarity is hard to come by in 2020.

Repeat after me.
BIDEN IS NOT THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE FOR PRESIDENT YET.
BIDEN IS NOT THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE FOR PRESIDENT YET.

There is still a chance for voters (unlikely) and/or the DNC (even more unlikely) to do the right thing here. But I'm too idealistic says defeatist people on this board who just throw up their hands and vote for a rapist.
There is no chance.
 

Big_Blue

Member
Dec 12, 2017
2,262
It is always funny that people always do the kids in cages thing. He's not like Joe Biden was the centerpiece of some of the most racist legislation and this nation's history post Jim Crow that put in 100s thousands of African-American youths in prison and jails for the past and many of them are still in today. It's not like that happen.
It's not like the crime bi was supported by the majority of black voters and black leaders. I know that's why mom doesn't completely blame him for it.

Biden sucks.
Having a Supreme Court and the federal courts stacked with Trump appointees, and straight up denying climate change is much much worse.
 

Euron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
856
And it’s privilege to allow an accused rapist to go unchecked. It’s irresponsible to lecture survivors about how they’re obligated to vote for someone accused of rape like what happened in the other thread last night.

Trump is horrible but that doesn’t mean we should turn the other way and ignore a credible rape accusation.
 

Spock

Member
Oct 27, 2017
307
Given how many votes are in, that third track is highly unlikely. I'm not betting on it. I'd love for that to happen, but I'm also trying to be realistic.



They won the house i n 2018, so I'd say you're full of it.
Honestly I think Bernie or a third track is going to be their only option. Biden is turning more into a potential liability.

Let's say they keep Biden as the nominee. If the Republicans run ads on the rape allegations your going to increase the number of people who won't vote Biden on moral grounds.

Sure people can say well look at Trump's history of allegations, the difference is most of his voters don't really give a fuck.

So even if you have Democrats trying to negate the Biden situation by highlighting all the shit attached to Trump, I don't think it will work well because the driving values and principles between bases differ.

And were one side would be willing to rationalize away thier morals a good chunk of the other will not.

I really think we're heading to a point where Biden is becoming way too risky of a candidate to put up.
 

Eeyore

Member
Dec 13, 2019
2,145
It's certainly a tough moral dilemma for those who are more personally affected.

The trolly problem metaphor is extremely apt, you don't want to feel responsible for the act of voting for an accused rapist so you'd rather not act and let the trolly continue on it's way toward an admitted rapist.

Moral clarity is hard to come by in 2020.
Hahahaha at your word choice of 'accused' vs. 'admitted'. You're not slick.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,847
Ontario
In Ontario OPC leader Patrick Brown was polled to win a super-majority inn the June 2018 elections but was kicked out by his caucus in February because it had come out that he had bought drugs for and made passes at party interns (OPC is a great party eh).

they fucking replaced him because they didn't want to fuck up a guaranteed win and then they went and won the election with doug fucking ford.

that's the responsible political decision, finding a better option, not browbeating people into line preemptively

until the convention the only reasonable response to this should be that he needs to be taken off the ticket, doesn't matter if it's not bernie
 

Dreams-Visions

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
20,471
Miami, FL
Repeat after me.
BIDEN IS NOT THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE FOR PRESIDENT YET.
BIDEN IS NOT THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE FOR PRESIDENT YET.

There is still a chance for voters (unlikely) and/or the DNC (even more unlikely) to do the right thing here. But I'm too idealistic says defeatist people on this board who just throw up their hands and vote for a rapist.
Unless the heat gets so hot that he has to step down — which would require lengthy national attention and probably additional accusers — there is little to no chance that he fails to become the nominee. It won’t even be close in the end. I’ve not seen the will in the media to follow this story and she’s been trying to tell it for 30 years. That certainly doesn’t bode well.

You guys need to come back to reality and sober up now. Barring some sort of unexpected evidence, Joe is it. Fuckin sucks but the voters already spoke.
 
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