Telling people they shouldn't vote this year is irresponsible and shows your privilege.

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Leo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,312
I would literally vote for Satan before Bolsonaro in the next elections, so I get the sentiment.
 

Wazzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,634
Repeat after me.
BIDEN IS NOT THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE FOR PRESIDENT YET.
BIDEN IS NOT THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE FOR PRESIDENT YET.

There is still a chance for voters (unlikely) and/or the DNC (even more unlikely) to do the right thing here. But I'm too idealistic says defeatist people on this board who just throw up their hands and vote for a rapist.
The discussion is about voting for Biden if he is up against Trump. The primaries are not the issue. People can vote for Sanders over Biden and if he manages to get the nom then great but his chances are unlikely and Biden is most likely to win.

This is purely about people saying they would not vote if Biden is the nominee.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,041
Cool, so you learned nothing from 2016. Nice.



And? If you're waiting for a perfect candidate that's a total angel, you're going to be waiting for a long goddamned time.

I point out that people didn't have this information these past few months. You say, "Well, he was a shitty person anyway." Being shitty doesn't disqualify someone from being a candidate. A lot of people said Hillary was a shitty person, too. You've just shown that you would've pushed this position regardless of these accusations.

Bernie is good and has great youth support. Young people didn't show up in the primaries.
No one's asking for perfection. There were multiple better candidates during this primary than Biden. There's still one now.
 

Fugu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,285
I wonder at one point the white liberals that make up the Democratic establishment - and, evidently, a significant chunk of the posters in this thread - will realize that trying to guilt women, minorities and other marginalized people into voting for the incredibly shitty rapist Democrat on the sole basis that he's not a Republican is an incredibly poor election strategy that both loses elections and completely undermines the moral authority upon which the whole "anyone but a Republican" viewpoint is based. This goes double when you sick motherfuckers have the gall to abandon all concept of human empathy by trying to frame a failure to pledge one's vote for said incredibly shitty rapist Democrat as a moral failing.

The marginalized people in America don't owe the Democrats shit. What you should have learned from 2016 is that "we're not cartoonishly evil" is not the sort of platform that gets you the automatic support of minorities. Instead, y'all have come back in 2020 with "we're less cartoonishly evil" and still the expectation exists that women, LGBT and PoC will pull the country's feet from the fire with absolutely no guarantee that anything will be done to fix their problems. The Democrats benefit massively from the minority vote but then as soon as election season is over their concerns are dropped. Electing as the leader a straight old white moderate rapist with a dubious-at-best background on race tells me that the Democrats aren't even trying to hide that fact anymore.

Continuing to support Joe Biden at this stage would send the message to the DNC that it's okay if the party is led by a rapist. That is the practical effect of throwing your hands in the air and this stage and resigning yourself to the inevitability of his nomination, and that's unacceptable. It's so unacceptable, in fact, that fixing this particular problem has to be priority number one.

Also, stop saying "credibly accused" of rape. The vast majority of rape accusations are true and they therefore begin credible. If something has a 95% chance of being true (like, incidentally, rape accusations), you don't treat it like it's probably not true because you'd be wrong most of the time.
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,857
It's probably because, despite having the largest voting base, the "Democrats" are really two parties in one. Non-crazy moderates/conservatives and progressives. The progressives push the energy but they're actually a minority in their own party.

In my experience you're right that most people are wedge issue voters. Republicans make it real easy for their voters by basically being the party of "lower my taxes", "don't take my guns", and "abortion is murder". Three simple issues that encapsulate a whole lot of America. And if you're racist or bigoted we've got that too. Lets throw libertarians who are just looking for gridlock to slow the growth of government in there too because Congress is great at not getting things done.

Whereas I don't think Democrats are even aligned on wedge issues. Abortion rights, gun control, and taxation all have really wide interpretations in the Democratic party. Hell, immigration, health care, education, military spending, diplomacy, etc. also have various interpretations within the party.

So I understand the frustration of progressives because they're always having to cater to the moderates but the alternative is pretty awful.
Politics are like religion. Its hard to be reasonable about something you really, really believe in.

While its stupid its also way more fun to argue about dumb shit like sports, videogames, movies, etc.
 

KingK

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,048
Indianapolis
I had made my peace with very reluctantly voting for Biden if he got the nom months ago.

I don't think I can anymore, given the severity of his alleged misconduct. I believe the woman's story, and I won't vote for a rapist. I live in Indiana, so it doesn't matter much anyway.

I'll still vote downballot, but I'll just write in Warren or Sanders for President. I've never missed even a primary election in the decade I've been eligible to vote, and this will be the first time I've done a write in.
 

Erpy

Member
May 31, 2018
1,154
Nah, there's still that third track. You are the one pretending it doesn't exist.
I assume you're talking about Sanders? His electability argument might have made sense before Super Tuesday and the tuesdays that followed, but so far there's no reason to believe he could generate the turnout necessary to beat Trump and have a chance at flipping the senate, meaning that this third track ultimately loops back to the track with the large number of people on it.
 

Gaf Zombie

The Fallen
Dec 13, 2017
1,359
For better or worse, I don't think Biden is going to lose too many votes over these allegations.

I think most voters are actually pretty pragmatic. When back alley abortions and unwanted babies become the norm again among the poor, no one will much care about the reasons you abstained.
 

n00bs7ay3r

Member
Aug 21, 2018
1,104
I assume you're talking about Sanders? His electability argument might have made sense before Super Tuesday and the tuesdays that followed, but so far there's no reason to believe he could generate the turnout necessary to beat Trump and have a chance at flipping the senate, meaning that this third track ultimately loops back to the track with the large number of people on it.
And Biden can't win the election with a credible rape accusation on his hands, so the second track doesn't exist. So no 2nd track, 3rd track is illusory, Trump wins in every scenario. So why not protest vote and send a real fucking message?
 

Fugu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,285
For better or worse, I don't think Biden is going to lose too many votes over these allegations.

I think most voters are actually pretty pragmatic. When back alley abortions and unwanted babies become the norm again among the poor, no one will much care about the reasons you abstained.
When the Democratic machine continues to produce old white rapists, no one will care about the party designation of the rapist you elected in 2020.
 

DickGrayson

Member
Jan 30, 2020
842
is this not what people should be pushing for right now? is there any reason they shouldn't aside from "it's too hard"?
If you want the god's honest truth, but you aren't going to like it:

A single accuser with only her word to back up her accusation is never going to be enough for the nation to take definitive action or for Biden to even seriously address, despite all the hashtags. America isn't at the point where they can believe women yet.

Anyone pushing for him to step down at this point is in such a small minority as to not warrant comment from his campaign. Look what it took for Al Franken to finally step aside and most progressives still believe he shouldn't have had too do so.
 

rickyson33

Member
Nov 23, 2017
845
Repeat after me.
BIDEN IS NOT THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE FOR PRESIDENT YET.
BIDEN IS NOT THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE FOR PRESIDENT YET.

There is still a chance for voters (unlikely) and/or the DNC (even more unlikely) to do the right thing here. But I'm too idealistic says defeatist people on this board who just throw up their hands and vote for a rapist.
there really isn't

unless he drops out or something this is over,Bernie would need something like a 20 point lead in the remaining states to win at this point with Georgia and a bunch of midwestern states left which flat out isn't happening

there's a reason betting markets have had Hillary Clinton with a higher chance of being the nominee than Sanders for weeks now
 

Monkey DTT

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
3,305
USA West Virginia
It's a classic example of the Trolley Problem, except the number of people on the lower track is multiplied by a few million.

I really like the trolley comparison. Because it shows that's every 4 years we have one of those things runaway and we never bother to prevent this kind of thing from happening. And the worker put in this position gets the blame and guilt rather than anyone actually responsible
 

Zelas

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,697
I've seen way more people concerned about those people choosing not to vote than I ever have people genuinely saying they wouldn't. It's starting to feel performative at this point.
I’ve seen people comfortable in life enough to look at the statistics of non-voters and say its no big deal. Considering what many have suffered these past few years I’m glad they have the drive to go above and beyond.
 

Kasumin

Member
Nov 19, 2017
570
I'm out. This thread is just going to continue to raise my blood pressure.

So often on this forum, I run into people who seem to think that you can only hold one opinion in your mind at a time. That an action can only have one consequence or motivation. The fact of the matter is that I am well aware that Biden is an accused rapist. However, these are not ordinary times. Republicans have evolved into a death cult over the past decade. They've shown during this pandemic that they are willing to let millions of Americans die.

Here's some reading for the people essentially saying, whether explicitly or implicitly, that Biden is just as bad as Trump: The Republican Death Cult: How a party sacrificed the future for power

You might think this sounds like an overblown conspiracy theory, but Jared Yates Sexton grew up in the kind of Evangelical community that literally worships the president. They think he's some kind of Chosen One. They will likely follow him even if he allows millions of Americans die to a pandemic. We have Dominionists in high positions in the government who literally believe in the end times. They make policy decisions based on a belief that the world will end and they will get to go to Heaven while all of the non-believers (and other unworthy people below them) will die or go to Hell.

It sounds insane, and IT IS. But this is reality. Prior to the past 3 years, I thought insane doomsday cults were the thing of 1990s JRPGs. Turns out they also exist in reality, and are currently trying to use the US government and its resources to advance their insane agenda.

That's what we're up against. These are not normal times. This is not a normal political party. The Senate is still behind Trump even as he works to make the pandemic worse. Even in Brazil you have more vocal opposition to Bolsonaro's madness, from what I've read. The US is in a unique position in the world. Since WWII the US has had a leadership position in the world and affects global affairs. Trump abdicating that leadership position has had major implications that we still don't even entirely understand. China has rapidly been moving in to fill the leadership vacuum left by the US. Russia and China also been working to undermine human rights initiatives worldwide.

This is all what's at stake.

I will vote for the nominee in November because to do otherwise means that Republicans will pull the trigger on the gun they have to my head.

It would be great if the DNC could do something to change this, but voters in the primaries have already shown support for Biden. Later primaries are also being delayed by the current pandemic. That makes things more difficult. I repeat: these are NOT normal times. Stop acting like things are normal.

I'm ignoring this thread and taking a break from this site for the day. Some of the takes in this thread are just too much, especially after the past 3 years. Call me a hypocrite if you want. Again, Republicans are holding a gun to my head and those of the people I love and care about.
 

Eeyore

Member
Dec 13, 2019
2,209
For better or worse, I don't think Biden is going to lose too many votes over these allegations.

I think most voters are actually pretty pragmatic. When back alley abortions and unwanted babies become the norm again among the poor, no one will much care about the reasons you abstained.
I don't know if you've been paying attention, but there aren't many abortion clinics as it is.
 

Orb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,327
USA
I really like the trolley comparison. Because it shows that's every 4 years we have one of those things runaway and we never bother to prevent this kind of thing from happening. And the worker put in this position gets the blame and guilt rather than anyone actually responsible
Well-put. This is actually the only way in which the trolley problem is an apt analogy.

Blame the fucking trolley. Hell, blame the fucking tracks. Don't blame the person unfortunate enough to be closest to the lever.
 

Ivalice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,174
This is only a sentiment that exists in sheltered bubbles on the internet, like this forum. People are going to vote like they've always have.
 

tapedeck

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,191
As much as many of you may not like it, not voting or voting for someone else absolutely helps Trumps chances for re-election.
 

Wazzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,634
I wonder at one point the white liberals that make up the Democratic establishment - and, evidently, a significant chunk of the posters in this thread - will realize that trying to guilt women, minorities and other marginalized people into voting for the incredibly shitty rapist Democrat on the sole basis that he's not a Republican is an incredibly poor election strategy that both loses elections and completely undermines the moral authority upon which the whole "anyone but a Republican" viewpoint is based. This goes double when you sick motherfuckers have the gall to abandon all concept of human empathy by trying to frame a failure to pledge one's vote for said incredibly shitty rapist Democrat as a moral failing.

The marginalized people in America don't owe the Democrats shit. What you should have learned from 2016 is that "we're not cartoonishly evil" is not the sort of platform that gets you the automatic support of minorities. Instead, y'all have come back in 2020 with "we're less cartoonishly evil" and still the expectation exists that women, LGBT and PoC will pull the country's feet from the fire with absolutely no guarantee that anything will be done to fix their problems. The Democrats benefit massively from the minority vote but then as soon as election season is over their concerns are dropped. Electing as the leader a straight old white moderate rapist with a dubious-at-best background on race tells me that the Democrats aren't even trying to hide that fact anymore.

Continuing to support Joe Biden at this stage would send the message to the DNC that it's okay if the party is led by a rapist. That is the practical effect of throwing your hands in the air and this stage and resigning yourself to the inevitability of his nomination, and that's unacceptable. It's so unacceptable, in fact, that fixing this particular problem has to be priority number one.

Also, stop saying "credibly accused" of rape. The vast majority of rape accusations are true and they therefore begin credible. If something has a 95% chance of being true (like, incidentally, rape accusations), you don't treat it like it's probably not true because you'd be wrong most of the time.
There is plenty of woman and minorties(Hi!) calling out the absolute bullshit people like you are spewing because it puts all of us at risk.

Stop trying to dismiss peoples criticism as being liberal white males trying to talk down minorities. This isn't a fucking vote to suppport Democrats. It's to stop a sociopathic rapist anti EVERYTHING from getting another term.

Oh but please continue to throw away all human rights(POC, LGBT, Woman) so that you showed the world that only one rapist didnt win!
 

Dreams-Visions

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
20,505
Miami, FL
is this not what people should be pushing for right now? is there any reason they shouldn't aside from "it's too hard"?
Not sure how much influence we have on what the nightly news loops want to talk about. I’m pretty sure COVID is driving ratings right now, so that’s going to be the story, and by the time it’s not the hot news, this story will be forgotten by many even if they knew about it (most will likely never have heard of it).

Which networks are going to risk their viewer base on spending real time on the 30 year old accusation who they didn’t give a fuck about for the last 30 years? I just don’t see it happening. It would be nice, but I don’t know if the will is there.

The chaos of a brokered convention where the voters have no say would certainly be something to behold though.
 

Auros01

Avenger
Nov 17, 2017
2,018
What a wild thread. No one should be guilted into voting for any candidate.

Our political system in this country is fundamentally broken. You have two broken and corrupt political parties that have both yielded older white men with sexual assault histories as their candidates. I think it's pretty easy to see why people might abstain from voting.

To suggest that people (including those who have been sexually assaulted) should "swallow their pride" and support or vote for candidates that have sexually assaulted others is a pretty gross expectation.
 

lowmelody

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,513
Biden needs to be shamed into steping down. I literally don't care who else gets the nom aside from Biden or Bloomberg. Biden needs to go and people need to direct their ire at him rather than others.
 

Heromanz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,325
That's another discussion. My point is that it took a lot of grassroots action to get that bill enacted and passed.
There's a big difference between the traditional democratic African Americans older versus the African American who vote for a Democrats.it was never the majority of black people, the majority of black don't give a fuck about Democratic party outside of four years maybe. they were the Uncle Tom's of our community they thought they could be like the white man but instead they still got arrested.
 
Aug 12, 2019
1,387
I’ve seen people comfortable in life enough to look at the statistics of non-voters and say its no big deal. Considering what many have suffered these past few years I’m glad they have the drive to go above and beyond.
No, I'm not referring to the people who don't vote period, I'm talking about people deciding not to vote specifically this year as the problem some people seem determined to paint it as. Specifically with people disillusioned with Biden as the nominee, which is largely what these conversations always center around when there is a relatively small portion of the population that has said they won't vote for whoever the eventual nominee is.

The "entirety of the electorate" not voting is a problem, but the anti-Biden side of things is largely overblown, because, as I've said before, most progressives and voters in general still recognize harm reduction.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,054
It's really a waste of energy. If someone makes it a point to tell you they're not voting, it's usually because they want the argument. At this point they'll either vote in November or they won't. Trying to convince those people is an exercise in frustration. Spend that energy trying to get more reliable people to vote.
 

Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,834
Last time? What? Pizzagate? Seth Rich?
Have you forgotten the emails?

The way the rape was described, this doesn’t sound like the only time Biden has assaulted someone. What happens if more victims come forward in the general? Deal with this shit now. Last time the scandals were manufactured, this time they’ll be real.
 

Blue Skies

Member
Mar 27, 2019
8,004
Are there only 2 options right now? What happened to Bernie Sanders?
Based on all the elections so far he’s mathematically stuck in “needs a fucking miracle” to win.
wtkh this coronavirus and how well Joe performed before this, Joe’s the presumptive nominee.
People just aren’t thinking about this election anymore. Bernies basically lost.
 

Fugu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,285
There is plenty of woman and minorties(Hi!) calling out the absolute bullshit people like you are spewing because it puts all of us at risk.

Stop trying to dismiss peoples criticism as being liberal white males trying to talk down minorities. This isn't a fucking vote to suppport Democrats. It's to stop a sociopathic rapist anti EVERYTHING from getting another term.

Oh but please continue to throw away all human rights(POC, LGBT, Woman) so that you showed the world that only one rapist didnt win!
You don't get to attach reasons or conditions to your vote. If you vote for Joe Biden, you are absolutely voting for the Democrats to continue unfettered their strategy of nominating neoliberal moderates with weak records on social issues (including, in this case, being a literal rapist) that are accustomed to discarding the concerns of marginalized people as soon as they're elected. You're showing them that that strategy works.

I understand if you feel like you still have to vote for Biden anyway because Trump really is just that bad, but to predicate it as being morally or even strategically the right thing to do is ridiculous.
 

gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,701
America
It is ALWAYS easier to make things worse than to make things better.

Just let that sink in for a while, and think about the ramifications of your actions.
 
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