I mean the alternative is 4 MORE years of a rapist as the leader.
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Telling people they shouldn't vote this year is irresponsible and shows your privilege.
- Thread starter Chrome Hyena
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I mean the alternative is 4 MORE years of a rapist as the leader.
People are still asking this after this month's primaries??????? With an increased turnout????
The part of this that is broken isn't "refused to vote." It's "everyone hated Hilary"
Facts like what?
Perhaps. I'm not making excuses for an ACCUSED rapist though.
? lots of people didn't like Hilary and refused to vote for her. Obviously I'm being hyperbolic
"The allegations aren't proven" means you're not believing women. Rape allegations are never proven since an essential element of the crime is a lack of consent, and there is literally no way to come to the conclusion that the sex was non-consensual without "taking a leap" and believing the woman.
I get your point but telling rape victims to "get over yourself" is pretty fucking disgusting.
The lesson of 2016 was to not go for the shittiest of the moderates as the democratic candidate. Which the DNC has decided they want to do again anyway
Also anyone in this thread pretending that people should just sit down and let a rapist become the DNC candidate kindly fuck off. He isn't the candidate yet, nor is he the only person who could stop Trump, so people should absolutely do their best to fight to have Biden held accountable and be made to drop out.
And this is the beautiful thing of this. Joe Biden has so much shit that you can't defend him on anything. Like don't use the kids in cages argument when there's people in these very thread that have family and friends who were imprisoned due to the policies that Joe Biden spearheaded.
I really don't know what to do now. I can't vote for Biden in good faith after hearing this, but at the same time if Trump is re-elected then the Supreme Court is lost. I don't think Ginsburg can hold on for another 4 years... And then there's all the other heinous, destructive actions the Trump Administration is capable of doing for another term.
I think the best we can do is call for him to drop out at the moment and prepare for the primaries after the delay.
I think the best we can do is call for him to drop out at the moment and prepare for the primaries after the delay.
At least that OP wasn't made immediately after the presumptive candidate was credibly accused of rape.
Actually, the trolley in this case is much further back, and you have the ability to tell the driver to apply the brakes.It's a classic example of the Trolley Problem, except the number of people on the lower track is multiplied by a few million.
The response is yes, Biden will win. No it won't be close. No the abstainers wont make the difference. And yes Im confident of this. The only thing that seems similar to 2016 here is the messy primary. Back in reality the voter turnout is massively up, and it'll remain that way. Trumps getting kicked out of office. And it looks like Biden will be the one serving the next term.
The people asking aren't paying any attention to turn out and things like that because its inconvenient to what they want it to be. They wish this was looking close, maybe it SHOULD be looking close but its not. They wish voter turnout wasn't up, maybe it shouldn't be. But it is. And Biden is polling ahead of Trump, maybe he shouldn't be, but he is. And its not news to anyone that Biden is creepy as shit. Thats why I wanted Warren personally, but there you go.
Agreed, the whole situation is sick. The country's politics are totally broken. But voting for the lesser of two evils is exactly that: we have to prevent the worst outcome by choosing the better of the two unfit candidates -- the one who won't make disastrous uninformed and ego-driven decisions, and empower the most backward people in government to ruin more lives.
You're ignoring the parts about new rape allegations coming to light. You're ignoring the coronavirus becoming a major factor. You're ignoring the potential of Republicans amplifying those rape allegations.
The environment has changed. There are literally multiple people who have already said that while they voted for Biden in the primary given these new allegations they would not vote for him in the general.
So those turn out numbers do not hold the same weight or validity going forward given what's changed.
As someone who's survived sexual assault as a child (I was 17) I find a lot of people in this thread screaming about what's at stake and somehow telling me to actively support a person who at the very least had a history of inappropriate touching to being an actual rapist as absolutely reprehensible.
These are indeed not normal times, but I refuse to openly endorse an alleged abuser just because another abuser is even worse. There is another option, and if the DNC doesn't do the right thing like they did with Al Franken and Anthony Weiner then they're just as complicit in telling sexual assault survivors that they don't matter.
If you truly care about the people you're claiming to protect by voting Trump out, force Democrats to pick a new candidate. Don't come in here saying it's privilege because someone doesn't want to enable and empower an alleged abuser in attacking someone else.
These are indeed not normal times, but I refuse to openly endorse an alleged abuser just because another abuser is even worse. There is another option, and if the DNC doesn't do the right thing like they did with Al Franken and Anthony Weiner then they're just as complicit in telling sexual assault survivors that they don't matter.
If you truly care about the people you're claiming to protect by voting Trump out, force Democrats to pick a new candidate. Don't come in here saying it's privilege because someone doesn't want to enable and empower an alleged abuser in attacking someone else.
At the end of the day Biden doesn't actually have the nomination right now so if this happens then the party is actively participating in getting a rapist elected. Try and rationalize it any way you want but that's what happened and you'll have to do a better job of explaining to people why you think that's acceptable.
You are trying to take data from a few message board posters and extrapolate it across the electorate. You are talking about "multiple people" from a ERA thread that months ago was completely dead sure of Sanders coasting to victory. In fact they were so sure, they thought this forum would meltdown when he inevitably won. You are making the exact same mistake they did. Or maybe you were one of them. Mistaking this forum for the American Electorate. And its not. Its never been.
You are expecting Coronavirus to turn the tables when since its explosion the candidate with the M4A in his plan is losing by a larger margin than he was before the virus blew up. The same virus that polls show the country is rallying around Trump during? Like... how is this not ringing a bell by now.
New polls will come, a few came just a day or two ago and Biden was strong, but rest assured, new ones will come. And when theres no fundamental turnaround it might be time to finally accept that this forum doesn't speak for the nation.
Those numbers hold all the same weight and validity whether you want them to or not.
Trumps approval ratings are also going up. Who knows where they're at in a few months. Public opinion can be weird during a crisis.
Preach. It's very transparent to see some of these people not using their energy to get Biden to drop. They don't care as long as the rapist is on their side.
The discussion isn't about the Primary. I've explained this already. We are discussing the potential presidential race between Trump and Biden. We are NOT discussing the current Primaries and the potential for Sanders to still be the nominee. This thread is about people who are full on admitting they will not vote for Biden if he becomes the presidential nominee when running against Trump. The situation for him to be the nominee COULD change but it is unlikely and that is an entirely different discussion from what is being talked about in here.
The fact you truly believe more republican rule is necessary for change is horrifying. The planet is on a time limit. Pop your fucking bubble and face reality. You aren't going to someday get this dream candidate because you let Trump take power. What you will actually get is abuse, rape, rights stolen, poverty and damage done to the climate that will eventually kill us all.
I can't even believe takes like this are real on this forum.
It's not that tough. Trump and Biden are known quantities. Anyone who can look at Trump's first term and say "I will not do my part to stop this, because the objectively better alternative is awful" is complicit in this horrorshow of depravity and stupidity.It's a classic example of the Trolley Problem, except the number of people on the lower track is multiplied by a few million.
What's more, even if Biden were to drop out, it still wouldn't make Sanders the likely nominee. Sanders staked his entire candidacy on the claim that he was the best shot against Trump because only he and he alone could motivate usual non-voters and young voters to swarm the polls and defeat Trump, its sheer size compensating for the number of older voters turned off by his talk of revolution and booting out the party establishment. When Super Tuesday and the tuesdays that followed came and went and it turned out that Biden was the one boosting turnout while the youth vote failed to show up, that claim was destroyed so thoroughly that I don't think either the party leaders nor the Democratic base at large would trust Sanders with the nomination at this point.
If Joe were to contract COVID-19 or these claims would get coverage in the mainstream media and corroborating accounts, he'd probably pick a successor and instruct his delegates to back that person at the convention. I have no reason to believe that person would be Sanders.
Every vote is a compromise.
Biden voters have to live with voting for a candidate with these allegations.
Abstainers have to live with voting for Trump.
This is the messy reality of democracy (and one of the reasons belief in democracy as an institution is so low now)
Biden voters have to live with voting for a candidate with these allegations.
Abstainers have to live with voting for Trump.
This is the messy reality of democracy (and one of the reasons belief in democracy as an institution is so low now)
No, it means you understand that a 7-2 conservative Supreme Court will prevent any true progressive reform for several more decades.
Jesus, it's really easy to understand what is at stake here. Y'all have fucking tunnel vision for the next 4-8 years. Elections have long-term consequences that have nothing to do with the character of the actual candidate.
And you'll have one forced down your throat whether you vote or not.
I guess will have to wait and see. I don't see how you can conclude the pre virus and allegation numbers to be just as valid. Obviously they hold some weight, but things have clearly changed, the scale of change is unknown so will have to see how things play out.
But if you don't think things have changed I would argue you're deluding yourself.
I also don't see how anyone can ignore the liability of the rape allegations. If that shit gains any media coverage or ad spend, I don't think the "blue no matter what" group can carry him.
The potential to lose votes because of the allegations seems too high in my opinion from a strategic standpoint.
It really is. There is no equivalency. Remember Trump is a white supremacist!!!!
Telling people to vote or not to vote... how can anyone think they are entitled to do that? People vote when they feel like their choice can impact the future meaningfully. People that dont vote dont vote because the Democrats didnt offer them enough incentives to do so. If I were American I would vote in almost all candidates against Trump but I am not sure Biden is one of them, not only he is accused sexual harassment and has quite bad track record (Iraq war for starters) but while in the short term he would be an improvement (marginal?) over Trump, it would also mean that we would need at least more 12 years till a progressive candidate could win an election...
Btw, it is easy to make an argument based on humanitarian and or human rights stuff NOT TO VOTE on the dems, the same as it is to do for Trump. I guess you are just entitled that your country is jailing foreign kids now and not receiving bomb drone attacks on civilians, or having US-backed coups, right?
Btw, it is easy to make an argument based on humanitarian and or human rights stuff NOT TO VOTE on the dems, the same as it is to do for Trump. I guess you are just entitled that your country is jailing foreign kids now and not receiving bomb drone attacks on civilians, or having US-backed coups, right?
I do believe you feel this way. But I would point you to the post above yours and below mine.
That's why you will be wrong about the voters. The masses will not see those two men as equals even though you may; or may have another reason to feel that way.
They won't.
It's been 4 long years. LONG years.
And the people voting Biden already knew he had issues. It's really not news.
They would have to legit go against the will of the people. To do this is to seriously ask them to do what they were accused of doing AGAINST Bernie in 2016. I mean, there's no way that plays in reality. The people choose, that's the point of the elections. They chose then, they choose now. It would also massively throw the election. You would murder what has been increased turnout. It's like the ONLY way to ensure a loss. If that approach was desired by the electorate, the electorate would signal it in an unignorable fashion beforehand, trust me.
If the party establishment wanted to I am sure they could even nominate Hilary in a contested convention. Where there is a will, there is a way. But first we need to collectively pressure Biden to bow out.
Fuck this country man. We have a rapist white supremacist in the office and the only other choice is another less terrible rapist. The only person still in the primary who seems to give a shit about working people and progressive policies is not going to get enough votes in the end. I'm so tired.
I know we are gonna have this conversation again when Biden likely gets the official nomination and alot can change between now and then, but holy hell does this thread scare the shit out of me. With all the shit surrounding Trumps blatant lies about this whole Coronavirus situation I was actually feeling really good about him losing this November.
Now I'm not so sure.
Now I'm not so sure.
Im voting to get Trump the fuck out. Simple as that.
Hopefully Biden, if still the nominee, picks a real good VP.
Hopefully Biden, if still the nominee, picks a real good VP.
Wow that's a blast from the past.
... Also kinda sad that my posts on that page ended up more or less correct.
Nominating anyone but Biden is going against the will of the people. But Biden is disqualified with this new news. If anything there needs to be a brokered convention where Biden's delegates can be realigned.
What would be really terrible is if they nominated someone who didn't even run like Kerry or Cuomo.
I want out of this fuckin country, and frankly once I graduate I think I'm actually going to start actively pursuing that. I'm so sick and tired of this pathetic excuse of a country.
Only in America is the overton window so shifted to the right that we basically have fascists who don't believe in science and a supposed "left" party that's really just moderate Republicans because what used to be moderate Republicans have lost their goddamn mind.
Imagine if Coronavirus comes back with a vengeance next year and we reelected Trump to continue handling the response. That alone scares the shit out of me.
If I don't vote for Biden, Trump is likely to be able to appoint two SCOTUS judges, as well as do irreparable damage to the livelihoods of people of color across the US, flaunt his power alongside dictators, and destroy the climate further out of sheer spite. If I do vote for Biden, I'll have to live with the fact that I supported a serial sexual assaulter and warmonger with active contempt for people in my age demo. Not to mention the fact that I perpetuated the Democratic Party's cycle of abuse for yet another election cycle.
I'm not sure that you can call making the choice to not vote for a sexual predator stupid.
Actually - no, I'm pretty sure it's not stupid.
This is rather much the same mentality I saw, especially around here, in the 2016 election. "Trump cannot possibly get elected" and other things were said, yet here we are. We're redoing the entirety of the 2016 election cycle. don't let that happen. Don't get ccky and make sure he is taken out of office.
And this shit is not helping at all. "Actual murderer?" When did he take a knife or gun out and kill a person? Because no other POTUS has ever made decisions that kill people, actively or passively.
No, thank you. This rhetoric of not voting somehow being the devil is bullshit and needs to stop. If I choose not to vote, I'm a demon because I'm not voting liberal and am somehow enabling the alt-right rather than just the conservatives. If I choose not to vote, I am also a demon because I'm not voting for a conservative and am some hippy socialist snowflake.
How about: give me a goddamned candidate that I will actually vote for because I freaking want to try and enable them to do something good that isn't the furthest pendulum swing from balance in the universe. Me not voting, should I choose not to (I legit have no made my decision yet) is not just keeping the status quo, it's a refusal to be part of a system that is, once again, choosing between one of each devil whispering in my ear.
You talk about privilege, but admit to have been supporting Harris. That's some gall.
Biden won't make things better or worse than Trump. He won't elect any supreme court nominees less extreme than Trump.
Biden won't make things better or worse than Trump. He won't elect any supreme court nominees less extreme than Trump.
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