Telling people they shouldn't vote this year is irresponsible and shows your privilege.

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Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
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Oct 25, 2017
2,011
I want out of this fuckin country, and frankly once I graduate I think I'm actually going to start actively pursuing that. I'm so sick and tired of this pathetic excuse of a country.

Only in America is the overton window so shifted to the right that we basically have fascists who don't believe in science and a supposed "left" party that's really just moderate Republicans because what used to be moderate Republicans have lost their goddamn mind.
Not to diminish your plight, but no, that's not only in America.
 

Fugu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,285
The discussion isn't about the Primary. I've explained this already. We are discussing the potential presidential race between Trump and Biden. We are NOT discussing the current Primaries and the potential for Sanders to still be the nominee. This thread is about people who are full on admitting they will not vote for Biden if he becomes the presidential nominee when running against Trump. The situation for him to be the nominee COULD change but it is unlikely and that is an entirely different discussion from what is being talked about in here.

The fact you truly believe more republican rule is necessary for change is horrifying. The planet is on a time limit. Pop your fucking bubble and face reality. You aren't going to someday get this dream candidate because you let Trump take power. What you will actually get is abuse, rape, rights stolen, poverty and damage done to the climate that will eventually kill us all.

I can't even believe takes like this are real on this forum.
You're looking at this like it's a short-term problem. It's not a short-term problem. If you don't tell the Democrats that what they're doing is wrong when they nominate a literal rapist, when do you tell them? How far to the right do they have to drift? How much weight do you place on the concept that the guy is a Democrat? What are you willing to sacrifice at that particular altar? Most importantly: What makes it so that you get to decide for other people - in this case, victims of sexual assault - what they should consider negotiable and what is non-negotiable?

Don't reply to this post if you don't intend on answering that last question.
 

Erpy

Member
May 31, 2018
1,154
Nominating anyone but Biden is going against the will of the people. But Biden is disqualified with this new news. If anything there needs to be a brokered convention where Biden's delegates can be realigned.

What would be really terrible is if they nominated someone who didn't even run like Kerry or Cuomo.
Biden's delegates would probably back whoever he told them to back, so if Biden were to drop out (which I don't see happening unless he catches COVID-19 and he's rapidly sliding downhill) he'd probably appoint a successor who'd inherit them. There's no way they'd end up with Sanders.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
7,286
Another thing people are forgetting:

We spent years telling Trump voters that they are complicit in literally everything he says, believes, and does regardless of why any individual said they voted for him (economic anxiety!), because that's what voting means in an American context: it's a full endorsement of the candidate. You don't get to delegate your vote to some positions and not others.

You can't really backtrack now that the raping white supremacist is on your team and thus automatically the savior of America's future because the other team is worse. You're gonna have to swallow that pill.

That is the moral thing to do, and it's not hard. I did it with Obama. Yeah, he droned the Middle East, so I tacitly supported that with both votes. I admit that. You can also admit you're supporting a rapist and still vote against Trump.
 

Rockets

Member
Sep 12, 2018
786
The Democratic establishment made a very stupid decision when they aligned behind Biden. If Trump wins they’re the ones to blame.
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,436
Sweden
I would never vote for this man, and the Democrats deserve to lose the election if they go with him, I don't envy you Americans right now with the shitty "choice" you're going to be presented.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,315
I'll vote Biden if he's on the ticket, but I'm not going to proclaim anybody who has issues with voting for an alleged rapist is "privileged". That's fucked up.
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,956
If the allegations are true he should fall on his sword like Franken. The Dems need to continue have a hard line on this shit.
To be fair the Dems have never been all that hard line on sexual assault and harassment.

Bill Clinton had four serious accusations levied against him, including a rape, and those accusations have been largely dismissed by the Party.

https://www.vox.com/2016/1/6/10722580/bill-clinton-juanita-broaddrick

If true, it also implicates Hillary in the cover-up.

Franken was a sacrificial lamb at the time MeToo was blowing up. He most assuredly deserved to be drummed out and I'm glad the party dumped his ass but that was more about timing and optics than actually giving a shit about sexual harassment.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
21,735
DFW, Texas
Imagine if Coronavirus comes back with a vengeance next year and we reelected Trump to continue handling the response. That alone scares the shit out of me.
Honestly that doesn't scare me nearly as much as Trump getting to replace more of the Supreme Court. The Coronavirus can deal immense damage, but the economy can be repaired. Lives can be stitched back together to some degree.


But the things that the Republicans could do if given a Supreme Court that does whatever they want? That would be unfathomable. Removal of women's rights, removal of protections for the LGBTQ community, immigration, voter suppression , drug laws.....the list goes on and on. The Republicans and their shit supporters would put this country back into the dark ages if Trump gets 4 more years. I don't think people quite understand how utterly fucked we are if Trump wins this November.
 

RobertM

Member
Oct 31, 2017
353
Americans reap what they sow and they deserve every bit of it. They don't rise up to the system that oppresses them or creates these types of outcomes. Everything starts with education and the share ignorance people beholden to, plus the fear they are subjected to. I am starting to have less and less sympathy for the people. You let a rapist run for president, that's on you. You let a moron run the country, that's on you. Why is it on you? You let thing go down the direction of status quo with no clear path possible, start a revolution and rewrite the laws, otherwise nothing will change.
 

Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,444
NYC
Another thing people are forgetting:

We spent years telling Trump voters that they are complicit in literally everything he says, believes, and does regardless of why any individual said they voted for him (economic anxiety!), because that's what voting means in an American context: it's a full endorsement of the candidate. You don't get to delegate your vote to some positions and not others.

You can't really backtrack now that the raping white supremacist is on your team and thus automatically the savior of America's future because the other team is worse. You're gonna have to swallow that pill.

That is the moral thing to do, and it's not hard. I did it with Obama. Yeah, he droned the Middle East, so I tacitly supported that with both votes. I admit that. You can also admit you're supporting a rapist and still vote against Trump.
Honestly, this. The American voting system is setup in such a way that your vote (and even non-vote, in some ways) means you fully endorse/don't endorse the candidate. Nuance is great for the Primary but once it comes time to actually make your voice heard, you're left with a simple yes or no question. When push comes to shove, your choice ends with, "You have the power now". It's shitty. It's very shitty. But that's the way it is right now.

So what do you do? I don't have the answer to that question other than saying that your morality is compromised no matter what you do.

The Democratic establishment made a very stupid decision when they aligned behind Biden. If Trump wins they’re the ones to blame.
Does the blame necessarily matter in the heat of the moment? The consequences are something we're going to have to deal with either way and once the dust has metaphorically settled, the blame can begin mattering. Hopefully.
 

Blue Skies

Member
Mar 27, 2019
8,004
Another thing people are forgetting:

We spent years telling Trump voters that they are complicit in literally everything he says, believes, and does regardless of why any individual said they voted for him (economic anxiety!), because that's what voting means in an American context: it's a full endorsement of the candidate. You don't get to delegate your vote to some positions and not others.

You can't really backtrack now that the raping white supremacist is on your team and thus automatically the savior of America's future because the other team is worse. You're gonna have to swallow that pill.

That is the moral thing to do, and it's not hard. I did it with Obama. Yeah, he droned the Middle East, so I tacitly supported that with both votes. I admit that. You can also admit you're supporting a rapist and still vote against Trump.
Biden is a white supremacist?
 

Wazzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,634
You're looking at this like it's a short-term problem. It's not a short-term problem. If you don't tell the Democrats that what they're doing is wrong when they nominate a literal rapist, when do you tell them? How far to the right do they have to drift? How much weight do you place on the concept that the guy is a Democrat? What are you willing to sacrifice at that particular altar? Most importantly: What makes it so that you get to decide for other people - in this case, victims of sexual assault - what they should consider negotiable and what is non-negotiable?

Don't reply to this post if you don't intend on answering that last question.
I don't decide anything. I'm just going to judge and call out people like you who would put peoples lives at risk over wanting to be morally righteous. You don't mind that more victims of rape and abuse will exist due to Trump. You obviously dont give two shits about marginalizrd groups if you think Trump is a short term consequence for good. But hey, at least you didn't vote Biden!

You also fail to grasp that showing you want change is done during the Primary. If you failed that then this change isn't happening

I'm starting to think posters like you are trolls who want Trump to win.
 

Agar25

Banned
Apr 12, 2018
7,410
God I absolutely hate the attitude in the OP and the people around here who wear it in their sleeves ( although after the allegations from yesterday I think that will now be less) ... said I can’t disagree with what he said. I just hate the way he says it.
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,472
Long Island
Who is Biden’s VP pick? Get him in there, because he is the only one getting votes in that party. Get us the win, kick him out and let the first ever woman Vice President become the first ever woman president.
 

Betty

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,495
I'm not sure that you can call making the choice to not vote for a sexual predator stupid.

Actually - no, I'm pretty sure it's not stupid.
Honestly, given that this is about more than who the figurehead is and has major ramifications elsewhere, I'd say it is personally stupid to not vote.

Don't vote for Biden, vote to ensure the supreme court doesn't go further right.

Don't vote for Biden, vote so that Mango Mussolini is out on his ass where he belongs.

Don't vote for Biden, vote for a party that you know full well is going to do a lot more regarding the environment, immigration and progressive values than the current guy.

Don't vote for Biden, but do vote for a chance at a better future, because a non vote means 4 more years of this nightmare.
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,199
Houston
to everyone saying they wont vote:

Should Rs keep the presidency, senate and or retake the house in Nov 2020

i don't want to see a single one of you bitching and moaning about any of the following:
how we have four more years of trump
anything trump does or says
any ridiculous racist, xenophobic, bigoted executive orders he signs.
any horrible awful judge(s) or supreme court justices, of which the next president is all but guaranteed 1 seat, that are nominated by Trump
any horrible awful legislation or further tax cuts the Rs pass.
any horrible anti LBGQT+ laws passed at the federal, state or local level
same thing with abortion



Ive been saying all along biden would be the nominee. Im not happy about it either, nor do i think he deserves it. But its not about deserving anything. Its about getting the goddamn country back on track. You want progressive policies? support house and senate progressives, support state and local progressives, run your self. But I dont want to see a single damn complaint out of anyone that doesn't vote, should we lose.
 

thewienke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,473
Given that most of the people here are young that are saying they won't vote for Biden, I think it's unreasonable to expect that what the takeaway for Democrats will be if young people don't vote (again) is that they should have put forth a more progressive or more uncompromised candidate. I think they already operate under the expectation that you won't vote and they'll continue to focus on the people that actually do.

If young people came out and voted in the same percentages as the elderly, THEN Democrats would have to take notice and start listening to you. That would actually send a message.
 

Deleted member 8861

User requested account closure
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Oct 26, 2017
10,564
I think this is one of those things where I'm just really happy I'm not among those forced into that choice.

There's no good decision to make here; and I think, morally, voting for Biden to get something less terrible/ not voting Biden to protest the DNC/ not voting for a potential rapist are all valid stances to take.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
7,286
Understand that what separates good voters from the assholes is the goals they have for the country and not necessarily what one candidate they support does.

Fact is, America is a machine that grinds up the vulnerable all over the world. If you participate in it, you are responsible for many of the atrocities you're complaining that Trump does anyway. The ship sailed after the genocide of natives.

Being an individual in a shit system does not make you a bad person. Trying to hurt others makes you a bad person. But so does completely denying your responsibility in the system's outputs should you participate in it. That's how you get people who simultaneously left another website due to sexual allegations telling sexual assault victims to shut up.
 

Sieffre

Member
Oct 27, 2017
229
United States
I've always fucking hated Biden, but unless he steps down like he should, I'll still vote for him anyway. This election cycle has been super depressing to me, and I hate how it's turning out. My only hope is that he'll pick a decent VP, and will either die in office or face the consequences of his actions and be removed. As awful of a person as Biden is, there is no likely scenario where Trump is better, and since we live in a shit-hole country, those are the only two options.
 

tulpa

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,232
the "non-voting is privileged" argument isn't just idiotic, it's objectively not true. sorry. you can repeat it all you want, but non-voters are less likely to be privileged than voters. underprivileged communities have higher rates of non-voters. that's just a fact, whether you like it or not.

marginalized communities don't have the highest rates of voter turnout. but old, rich white people? they always turn out to vote. this ~non-voting privilege~ argument is so ridiculous
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,041
If the allegations are true he should fall on his sword like Franken. The Dems need to continue have a hard line on this shit.
Going by the reactions in this thread and the others, he doesn't have to. To OP and others he's already the chosen candidate and it's everyone else's fault if Trump wins in the fall.

Never them for supporting a crap candidate.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,315
the "non-voting is privileged" argument isn't just idiotic, it's objectively not true. sorry. you can repeat it all you want, but non-voters are less likely to be privileged than voters. underprivileged communities have higher rates of non-voters. that's just a fact, whether you like it or not.

marginalized communities don't have the highest rates of voter turnout. but old, rich white people? they always turn out to vote. this ~non-voting privilege~ argument is so ridiculous
Oh so you're blaming underprivileged people for Trump?! You must be so privileged.

/s
 

ninnanuam

Member
Nov 24, 2017
823
To be fair the Dems have never been all that hard line on sexual assault and harassment.

Bill Clinton had four serious accusations levied against him, including a rape, and those accusations have been largely dismissed by the Party.

https://www.vox.com/2016/1/6/10722580/bill-clinton-juanita-broaddrick

If true, it also implicates Hillary in the cover-up.

Franken was a sacrificial lamb at the time MeToo was blowing up. He most assuredly deserved to be drummed out and I'm glad the party dumped his ass but that was more about timing and optics than actually giving a shit about sexual harassment.

Maybe it was optimism but I thought the line might continue to be in effect after metoo faded into the background. Hell it's not really faded that much, Weinstein shit is still up in my news feed.
 

D.Dragoon

Member
Mar 2, 2018
744
Buttigieg would’ve been a fantastic President. But “bread price fixing”
I am sure it was "bread price fixing" that made him super unpopular with minorities. I wonder if that's why he wasn't liked by the black folk in South Bend and not the way he ran the city.
Maybe Warren pulled out too early.
She couldn't even win her home state in the primary where she placed 3rd which was the highest she got out of all states.
 

Big_Blue

Member
Dec 12, 2017
2,264
You're ignoring the parts about new rape allegations coming to light. You're ignoring the coronavirus becoming a major factor. You're ignoring the potential of Republicans amplifying those rape allegations.

The environment has changed. There are literally multiple people who have already said that while they voted for Biden in the primary given these new allegations they would not vote for him in the general.

So those turn out numbers do not hold the same weight or validity going forward given what's changed.
Good lord, Biden had NINE, yes 9!! sexual assault allegations before he even threw his hat in the ring for the nomination.
 
Jun 10, 2018
2,271
As someone who's survived sexual assault as a child (I was 17) I find a lot of people in this thread screaming about what's at stake and somehow telling me to actively support a person who at the very least had a history of inappropriate touching to being an actual rapist as absolutely reprehensible.

These are indeed not normal times, but I refuse to openly endorse an alleged abuser just because another abuser is even worse. There is another option, and if the DNC doesn't do the right thing like they did with Al Franken and Anthony Weiner then they're just as complicit in telling sexual assault survivors that they don't matter.

If you truly care about the people you're claiming to protect by voting Trump out, force Democrats to pick a new candidate. Don't come in here saying it's privilege because someone doesn't want to enable and empower an alleged abuser in attacking someone else.
And of course, I expect those trying to browbeat individuals like yourself into voting a certain way will intentionally ignore your perspective. You, know, because you're a real person with an opinion countering your supposed "civil champions" rather than simply playing your role as a political Yu-Gi-Oh trap card.

This tactic really needs to be called out for what it is: a blatant display of authoritarian judgment.
 

Sunster

The Fallen
Oct 5, 2018
4,531
must be nice to be on the right and never have to deal with these moral dilemmas. their process is as simple as R = ✓ absolutely no other thought goes into it.


but of course i don't envy being so absent minded.
 

Blue Skies

Member
Mar 27, 2019
8,004
must be nice to be on the right and never have to deal with these moral dilemmas. their process is as simple as R = ✓ absolutely no other thought goes into it.
And that thinking has given them near full control of our federal and state courts and legislatures. We really need to acknowledge how powerful the enemy is, before focusing on how perfect we need to be.
 

Fugu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,285
I don't decide anything. I'm just going to judge and call out people like you who would put peoples lives at risk over wanting to be morally righteous. You don't mind that more victims of rape and abuse will exist due to Trump. You obviously dont give two shits about marginalizrd groups if you think Trump is a short term consequence for good. But hey, at least you didn't vote Biden!

You also fail to grasp that showing you want change is done during the Primary. If you failed that then this change isn't happening

I'm starting to think posters like you are trolls who want Trump to win.
You're complacent about the state of the Democrats. Great! Don't fault other people for having spines who expect something better out of the party that claims to represent them.

As I've said before, yours is very short-sighted thinking. It is both morally not correct - it can never be morally correct to chastise someone for being unwilling to stand behind a rapist - and it is strategically unwise since it enables the Democrats to continue nominating people like Joe Biden. Trump's policymaking is extremely negligent, whereas Biden's will be only very negligent, sure. But don't pretend like the failure to do better than "very negligent" isn't also quite dangerous, because it is. And that's where you're at.

Also: I'm not entitled to vote in American elections, so you can go ahead and stop putting the ironic "at least you didn't vote for Biden!" stuff in your post.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
21,735
DFW, Texas
It's really a waste of energy. If someone makes it a point to tell you they're not voting, it's usually because they want the argument. At this point they'll either vote in November or they won't. Trying to convince those people is an exercise in frustration. Spend that energy trying to get more reliable people to vote.
This is a really good post and point.
 

Fugu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,285
And that thinking has given them near full control of our federal and state courts and legislatures. We really need to acknowledge how powerful the enemy is, before focusing on how perfect we need to be.
"Maybe we shouldn't back a rapist" isn't a call for perfection, it's a call for having any standards at all.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,391
Atlanta GA
You talk about privilege, but admit to have been supporting Harris. That's some gall.

Biden won't make things better or worse than Trump. He won't elect any supreme court nominees less extreme than Trump.
I know it's not all about me but I will likely lose my citizenship under Trump. I don't want that to happen to anyone in my position. I hope you would agree.

It's also a fucking absurd fantasy that they would more or less pick the same judges.
 

Blue Skies

Member
Mar 27, 2019
8,004
"Maybe we shouldn't back a rapist" isn't a call for perfection, it's a call for having any standards at all.
If it was December or January right now, then ok, but we are at the end of this thing and Biden has the votes, and well, there’s a pandemic going on and people just don’t care about this election anymore, so it’s pretty much over. So, in the grand scheme of things, most people are gonna be ok with holding their nose and doing what’s necessary.
Biden has done bad things but the administration he would bring isn’t gonna be made up of racists and white supremacists so I will be voting for the Democratic Party in November.
 

Spock

Member
Oct 27, 2017
310
Good lord, Biden had NINE, yes 9!! sexual assault allegations before he even threw his hat in the ring for the nomination.
All it takes is "one" to gain traction. If the current allegation holds up or gains mindshare, then those others will come back in to play. This particular allegation "feels" different, in that it feels like it's going to catch more attention at some point. Prolly first through increased social media exposure and then with traditional media being forced to pick it up because people are talking about it.
 

Apharmd

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,491
Another thing people are forgetting:

We spent years telling Trump voters that they are complicit in literally everything he says, believes, and does regardless of why any individual said they voted for him (economic anxiety!), because that's what voting means in an American context: it's a full endorsement of the candidate. You don't get to delegate your vote to some positions and not others.

You can't really backtrack now that the raping white supremacist is on your team and thus automatically the savior of America's future because the other team is worse. You're gonna have to swallow that pill.

That is the moral thing to do, and it's not hard. I did it with Obama. Yeah, he droned the Middle East, so I tacitly supported that with both votes. I admit that. You can also admit you're supporting a rapist and still vote against Trump.
Yes, he's said racist and racially tone-deaf shit before. To say nothing of the crime bill and his relationship with Strom Thurmond.
Thank you for pointing this out. It really needs to be said.
 

dtflip

Member
Oct 29, 2017
688
Seattle,WA
I wonder why not voting for your candidate is always a vote for the candidate you don't like instead of the reverse, hm hm. I'm definitely voting, but not for Rapist (D) or Rapist (R).
 

Plumbob

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,968
to the golden days of the Obama years. When everything was perfect, no war crimes were being committed and everyone was living a decent life, had good healthcare, wasn't living paycheck to paycheck.


oh right......
This false equivalency between a typical Democrat and Trump is super tiresome.

You can always find commonalities, but that doesn't make the differences less important!

The pandemic should make it extremely clear that having marginally better leadership can save many, many lives.
 

Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,444
NYC
Understand that what separates good voters from the assholes is the goals they have for the country and not necessarily what one candidate they support does.

Fact is, America is a machine that grinds up the vulnerable all over the world. If you participate in it, you are responsible for many of the atrocities you're complaining that Trump does anyway. The ship sailed after the genocide of natives.

Being an individual in a shit system does not make you a bad person. Trying to hurt others makes you a bad person. But so does completely denying your responsibility in the system's outputs should you participate in it. That's how you get people who simultaneously left another website due to sexual allegations telling sexual assault victims to shut up.
This is where I'm at logically and mentally, yeah. Emotionally and practically I'm still trying to come to terms with discussing your complicity and breach of personal morality when you choose to interact with, or refuse to interact with, the American political system. It feels like a subject that is implicitly tied to telling someone to sit down, shut up, and fall in line even if it's phrased more nicely.
 

Fugu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,285
If it was December or January right now, then ok, but we are at the end of this thing and Biden has the votes, and well, there’s a pandemic going on and people just don’t care about this election anymore, so it’s pretty much over. So, in the grand scheme of things, most people are gonna be ok with holding their nose and doing what’s necessary.
Biden has done bad things but the administration he would bring isn’t gonna be made up of racists and white supremacists so I will be voting for the Democratic Party in November.
Our experience in 2016 tells us that this is probably a losing strategy and that the call to be pragmatic about falling behind a compromise candidate is based on speculation and deference, not facts. Rather than resign ourselves to losing in 2020 while still having gone through the experience of nominating a literal rapist to represent the party, now is the time to act.
 
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