Not to diminish your plight, but no, that's not only in America.
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Telling people they shouldn't vote this year is irresponsible and shows your privilege.
- Thread starter Chrome Hyena
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You're looking at this like it's a short-term problem. It's not a short-term problem. If you don't tell the Democrats that what they're doing is wrong when they nominate a literal rapist, when do you tell them? How far to the right do they have to drift? How much weight do you place on the concept that the guy is a Democrat? What are you willing to sacrifice at that particular altar? Most importantly: What makes it so that you get to decide for other people - in this case, victims of sexual assault - what they should consider negotiable and what is non-negotiable?
Don't reply to this post if you don't intend on answering that last question.
Biden's delegates would probably back whoever he told them to back, so if Biden were to drop out (which I don't see happening unless he catches COVID-19 and he's rapidly sliding downhill) he'd probably appoint a successor who'd inherit them. There's no way they'd end up with Sanders.
Another thing people are forgetting:
We spent years telling Trump voters that they are complicit in literally everything he says, believes, and does regardless of why any individual said they voted for him (economic anxiety!), because that's what voting means in an American context: it's a full endorsement of the candidate. You don't get to delegate your vote to some positions and not others.
You can't really backtrack now that the raping white supremacist is on your team and thus automatically the savior of America's future because the other team is worse. You're gonna have to swallow that pill.
That is the moral thing to do, and it's not hard. I did it with Obama. Yeah, he droned the Middle East, so I tacitly supported that with both votes. I admit that. You can also admit you're supporting a rapist and still vote against Trump.
We spent years telling Trump voters that they are complicit in literally everything he says, believes, and does regardless of why any individual said they voted for him (economic anxiety!), because that's what voting means in an American context: it's a full endorsement of the candidate. You don't get to delegate your vote to some positions and not others.
You can't really backtrack now that the raping white supremacist is on your team and thus automatically the savior of America's future because the other team is worse. You're gonna have to swallow that pill.
That is the moral thing to do, and it's not hard. I did it with Obama. Yeah, he droned the Middle East, so I tacitly supported that with both votes. I admit that. You can also admit you're supporting a rapist and still vote against Trump.
this is pure fantasy. he would obviously put in Democratic-leaning judges
I would never vote for this man, and the Democrats deserve to lose the election if they go with him, I don't envy you Americans right now with the shitty "choice" you're going to be presented.
You should probably stop reading ERA for a bit, it's bleeding into your perception of where the electorate is when it's about as accurate as Trump's pressers.
To be fair the Dems have never been all that hard line on sexual assault and harassment.
Bill Clinton had four serious accusations levied against him, including a rape, and those accusations have been largely dismissed by the Party.
https://www.vox.com/2016/1/6/10722580/bill-clinton-juanita-broaddrick
If true, it also implicates Hillary in the cover-up.
Franken was a sacrificial lamb at the time MeToo was blowing up. He most assuredly deserved to be drummed out and I'm glad the party dumped his ass but that was more about timing and optics than actually giving a shit about sexual harassment.
Honestly that doesn't scare me nearly as much as Trump getting to replace more of the Supreme Court. The Coronavirus can deal immense damage, but the economy can be repaired. Lives can be stitched back together to some degree.
But the things that the Republicans could do if given a Supreme Court that does whatever they want? That would be unfathomable. Removal of women's rights, removal of protections for the LGBTQ community, immigration, voter suppression , drug laws.....the list goes on and on. The Republicans and their shit supporters would put this country back into the dark ages if Trump gets 4 more years. I don't think people quite understand how utterly fucked we are if Trump wins this November.
Americans reap what they sow and they deserve every bit of it. They don't rise up to the system that oppresses them or creates these types of outcomes. Everything starts with education and the share ignorance people beholden to, plus the fear they are subjected to. I am starting to have less and less sympathy for the people. You let a rapist run for president, that's on you. You let a moron run the country, that's on you. Why is it on you? You let thing go down the direction of status quo with no clear path possible, start a revolution and rewrite the laws, otherwise nothing will change.
Honestly, this. The American voting system is setup in such a way that your vote (and even non-vote, in some ways) means you fully endorse/don't endorse the candidate. Nuance is great for the Primary but once it comes time to actually make your voice heard, you're left with a simple yes or no question. When push comes to shove, your choice ends with, "You have the power now". It's shitty. It's very shitty. But that's the way it is right now.
So what do you do? I don't have the answer to that question other than saying that your morality is compromised no matter what you do.
Does the blame necessarily matter in the heat of the moment? The consequences are something we're going to have to deal with either way and once the dust has metaphorically settled, the blame can begin mattering. Hopefully.
I don't decide anything. I'm just going to judge and call out people like you who would put peoples lives at risk over wanting to be morally righteous. You don't mind that more victims of rape and abuse will exist due to Trump. You obviously dont give two shits about marginalizrd groups if you think Trump is a short term consequence for good. But hey, at least you didn't vote Biden!
You also fail to grasp that showing you want change is done during the Primary. If you failed that then this change isn't happening
I'm starting to think posters like you are trolls who want Trump to win.
God I absolutely hate the attitude in the OP and the people around here who wear it in their sleeves ( although after the allegations from yesterday I think that will now be less) ... said I can't disagree with what he said. I just hate the way he says it.
Who is Biden's VP pick? Get him in there, because he is the only one getting votes in that party. Get us the win, kick him out and let the first ever woman Vice President become the first ever woman president.
Honestly, given that this is about more than who the figurehead is and has major ramifications elsewhere, I'd say it is personally stupid to not vote.
Don't vote for Biden, vote to ensure the supreme court doesn't go further right.
Don't vote for Biden, vote so that Mango Mussolini is out on his ass where he belongs.
Don't vote for Biden, vote for a party that you know full well is going to do a lot more regarding the environment, immigration and progressive values than the current guy.
Don't vote for Biden, but do vote for a chance at a better future, because a non vote means 4 more years of this nightmare.
to everyone saying they wont vote:
Should Rs keep the presidency, senate and or retake the house in Nov 2020
i don't want to see a single one of you bitching and moaning about any of the following:
how we have four more years of trump
anything trump does or says
any ridiculous racist, xenophobic, bigoted executive orders he signs.
any horrible awful judge(s) or supreme court justices, of which the next president is all but guaranteed 1 seat, that are nominated by Trump
any horrible awful legislation or further tax cuts the Rs pass.
any horrible anti LBGQT+ laws passed at the federal, state or local level
same thing with abortion
Ive been saying all along biden would be the nominee. Im not happy about it either, nor do i think he deserves it. But its not about deserving anything. Its about getting the goddamn country back on track. You want progressive policies? support house and senate progressives, support state and local progressives, run your self. But I dont want to see a single damn complaint out of anyone that doesn't vote, should we lose.
Should Rs keep the presidency, senate and or retake the house in Nov 2020
i don't want to see a single one of you bitching and moaning about any of the following:
how we have four more years of trump
anything trump does or says
any ridiculous racist, xenophobic, bigoted executive orders he signs.
any horrible awful judge(s) or supreme court justices, of which the next president is all but guaranteed 1 seat, that are nominated by Trump
any horrible awful legislation or further tax cuts the Rs pass.
any horrible anti LBGQT+ laws passed at the federal, state or local level
same thing with abortion
Ive been saying all along biden would be the nominee. Im not happy about it either, nor do i think he deserves it. But its not about deserving anything. Its about getting the goddamn country back on track. You want progressive policies? support house and senate progressives, support state and local progressives, run your self. But I dont want to see a single damn complaint out of anyone that doesn't vote, should we lose.
Given that most of the people here are young that are saying they won't vote for Biden, I think it's unreasonable to expect that what the takeaway for Democrats will be if young people don't vote (again) is that they should have put forth a more progressive or more uncompromised candidate. I think they already operate under the expectation that you won't vote and they'll continue to focus on the people that actually do.
If young people came out and voted in the same percentages as the elderly, THEN Democrats would have to take notice and start listening to you. That would actually send a message.
If young people came out and voted in the same percentages as the elderly, THEN Democrats would have to take notice and start listening to you. That would actually send a message.
I think this is one of those things where I'm just really happy I'm not among those forced into that choice.
There's no good decision to make here; and I think, morally, voting for Biden to get something less terrible/ not voting Biden to protest the DNC/ not voting for a potential rapist are all valid stances to take.
There's no good decision to make here; and I think, morally, voting for Biden to get something less terrible/ not voting Biden to protest the DNC/ not voting for a potential rapist are all valid stances to take.
Understand that what separates good voters from the assholes is the goals they have for the country and not necessarily what one candidate they support does.
Fact is, America is a machine that grinds up the vulnerable all over the world. If you participate in it, you are responsible for many of the atrocities you're complaining that Trump does anyway. The ship sailed after the genocide of natives.
Being an individual in a shit system does not make you a bad person. Trying to hurt others makes you a bad person. But so does completely denying your responsibility in the system's outputs should you participate in it. That's how you get people who simultaneously left another website due to sexual allegations telling sexual assault victims to shut up.
I've always fucking hated Biden, but unless he steps down like he should, I'll still vote for him anyway. This election cycle has been super depressing to me, and I hate how it's turning out. My only hope is that he'll pick a decent VP, and will either die in office or face the consequences of his actions and be removed. As awful of a person as Biden is, there is no likely scenario where Trump is better, and since we live in a shit-hole country, those are the only two options.
the "non-voting is privileged" argument isn't just idiotic, it's objectively not true. sorry. you can repeat it all you want, but non-voters are less likely to be privileged than voters. underprivileged communities have higher rates of non-voters. that's just a fact, whether you like it or not.
marginalized communities don't have the highest rates of voter turnout. but old, rich white people? they always turn out to vote. this ~non-voting privilege~ argument is so ridiculous
marginalized communities don't have the highest rates of voter turnout. but old, rich white people? they always turn out to vote. this ~non-voting privilege~ argument is so ridiculous
Going by the reactions in this thread and the others, he doesn't have to. To OP and others he's already the chosen candidate and it's everyone else's fault if Trump wins in the fall.
Never them for supporting a crap candidate.
to the golden days of the Obama years. When everything was perfect, no war crimes were being committed and everyone was living a decent life, had good healthcare, wasn't living paycheck to paycheck.
oh right......
Oh so you're blaming underprivileged people for Trump?! You must be so privileged.
/s
Maybe it was optimism but I thought the line might continue to be in effect after metoo faded into the background. Hell it's not really faded that much, Weinstein shit is still up in my news feed.
I am sure it was "bread price fixing" that made him super unpopular with minorities. I wonder if that's why he wasn't liked by the black folk in South Bend and not the way he ran the city.
She couldn't even win her home state in the primary where she placed 3rd which was the highest she got out of all states.
Good lord, Biden had NINE, yes 9!! sexual assault allegations before he even threw his hat in the ring for the nomination.
And of course, I expect those trying to browbeat individuals like yourself into voting a certain way will intentionally ignore your perspective. You, know, because you're a real person with an opinion countering your supposed "civil champions" rather than simply playing your role as a political Yu-Gi-Oh trap card.
This tactic really needs to be called out for what it is: a blatant display of authoritarian judgment.
Yes, he's said racist and racially tone-deaf shit before. To say nothing of the crime bill and his relationship with Strom Thurmond.
I'm talking to anybody who, through inaction, would help Trump get re-elected.
Like they say, "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" --Edmund Burke
And that thinking has given them near full control of our federal and state courts and legislatures. We really need to acknowledge how powerful the enemy is, before focusing on how perfect we need to be.
You're complacent about the state of the Democrats. Great! Don't fault other people for having spines who expect something better out of the party that claims to represent them.
As I've said before, yours is very short-sighted thinking. It is both morally not correct - it can never be morally correct to chastise someone for being unwilling to stand behind a rapist - and it is strategically unwise since it enables the Democrats to continue nominating people like Joe Biden. Trump's policymaking is extremely negligent, whereas Biden's will be only very negligent, sure. But don't pretend like the failure to do better than "very negligent" isn't also quite dangerous, because it is. And that's where you're at.
Also: I'm not entitled to vote in American elections, so you can go ahead and stop putting the ironic "at least you didn't vote for Biden!" stuff in your post.
"Maybe we shouldn't back a rapist" isn't a call for perfection, it's a call for having any standards at all.
I know it's not all about me but I will likely lose my citizenship under Trump. I don't want that to happen to anyone in my position. I hope you would agree.
It's also a fucking absurd fantasy that they would more or less pick the same judges.
If it was December or January right now, then ok, but we are at the end of this thing and Biden has the votes, and well, there's a pandemic going on and people just don't care about this election anymore, so it's pretty much over. So, in the grand scheme of things, most people are gonna be ok with holding their nose and doing what's necessary.
Biden has done bad things but the administration he would bring isn't gonna be made up of racists and white supremacists so I will be voting for the Democratic Party in November.
All it takes is "one" to gain traction. If the current allegation holds up or gains mindshare, then those others will come back in to play. This particular allegation "feels" different, in that it feels like it's going to catch more attention at some point. Prolly first through increased social media exposure and then with traditional media being forced to pick it up because people are talking about it.
Thank you for pointing this out. It really needs to be said.
I wonder why not voting for your candidate is always a vote for the candidate you don't like instead of the reverse, hm hm. I'm definitely voting, but not for Rapist (D) or Rapist (R).
This false equivalency between a typical Democrat and Trump is super tiresome.
You can always find commonalities, but that doesn't make the differences less important!
The pandemic should make it extremely clear that having marginally better leadership can save many, many lives.
This is where I'm at logically and mentally, yeah. Emotionally and practically I'm still trying to come to terms with discussing your complicity and breach of personal morality when you choose to interact with, or refuse to interact with, the American political system. It feels like a subject that is implicitly tied to telling someone to sit down, shut up, and fall in line even if it's phrased more nicely.
Our experience in 2016 tells us that this is probably a losing strategy and that the call to be pragmatic about falling behind a compromise candidate is based on speculation and deference, not facts. Rather than resign ourselves to losing in 2020 while still having gone through the experience of nominating a literal rapist to represent the party, now is the time to act.
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