Tennis officials shaken by lack of support for chair umpire Carlos Ramos

motherless · Sep 11, 2018

The umpire was in the right. This is not the first time Serena's had a meltdown either.

http://www.espn.com/sports/tennis/news/story?id=4699850

Snippet:
Serena fined, faces Open suspension

"Serena Williams was fined a record $82,500 for her tirade at a U.S. Open line judge and could be suspended from that tournament if she has another "major offense" at any Grand Slam in the next two years.

Grand Slam administrator Bill Babcock's ruling was released Monday, and he said Williams faces a "probationary period" at tennis' four major championships in 2010 and 2011. If she has another "major offense" at a Grand Slam tournament in that time, the fine would increase to $175,000 and she would be barred from the following U.S. Open.

"But if she does not have another offense in the next two years, the suspension is lifted," Babcock said in a telephone interview from London...."

Soliloquy of a Dogge · Sep 11, 2018

excelsiorlef said:
I'm just gonna throw this out there.... that officials are talking of boycotting Serena matches only really helps her argument.

Interesting how a player like Kyrgios who tanks entire games, entire sets and entire matches and acts like a fool on the court more often than not towards his opponents, chair umpires and the spectators has never drawn this type of reaction from chair umpires and other officials beyond the trotted out pre-prepared statements denouncing his BS.

If the talk of boycotting Serena's matches has any merit to it, it's a laughable overreaction and completely out of touch.

gutter_trash · Sep 11, 2018

She was losing the match already.

Her John McEnroe moment robbed her opponent (Osaka ) of a joyous victory

Soupman Prime · Sep 11, 2018

Really is amazing how much vitriol and hate he's getting for making the correct calls. Serena is the one who blew up and made this whole thing worse than it is. Hopefully this doesn't ruin his livelihood.

Erik Twice · Sep 11, 2018

excelsiorlef said:
Refs get yelled at all the time and they don't start wanting to organize a fucking boycott

"Refs are abused all the time but they don't complain, so tennis umpires shouldn't complain when they get abused" Is that really your argument?

I mean, this is basic worker rights. They are being abused for doing their job, and doing it properly, at that, and hence they are threaten a strike or boycott to demand better working conditions.

If you consider yourself "progressive", you should give a second look at what you are defending.

Tya · Sep 11, 2018

Soliloquy of a Dogge said:
Interesting how a player like Kyrgios who tanks entire games, entire sets and entire matches and acts like a fool on the court more often than not towards his opponents, chair umpires and the spectators has never drawn this type of reaction from chair umpires and other officials beyond the trotted out pre-prepared statements denouncing his BS.

If the talk of boycotting Serena's matches has any merit to it, it's a laughable overreaction and completely out of touch.

Has Ramos ever officiated a match by him? If not, what is your point?

The only issue here is consistency by Ramos. All indications point to him be a stickler for rules. How other officials rule means fuck all.

Hazzuh · Sep 11, 2018

Sports fans who disrespect umpires and referees are trash.

Gross to see the WTA throw Ramos under a bus for doing his job correctly. Shame that more top umpires aren't as consistent as him.

Deleted member 32018 · Sep 11, 2018

Soliloquy of a Dogge said:
Interesting how a player like Kyrgios who tanks entire games, entire sets and entire matches and acts like a fool on the court more often than not towards his opponents, chair umpires and the spectators has never drawn this type of reaction from chair umpires and other officials.

I've never heard Kyrgios get as personal towards an umpire as to have that umpire attacked from many, many people. This is what Serena has done by accusing Ramos of being sexist, a liar and a thief.

LastCaress · Sep 11, 2018

Soliloquy of a Dogge said:
Interesting how a player like Kyrgios who tanks entire games, entire sets and entire matches and acts like a fool on the court more often than not towards his opponents, chair umpires and the spectators has never drawn this type of reaction from chair umpires and other officials beyond the trotted out pre-prepared statements denouncing his BS.

If the talk of boycotting Serena's matches has any merit to it, it's a laughable overreaction and completely out of touch.

It's not really interesting though. If Kyrgios has a meltdown and threatens the umpire's livelihood and then gets ATP and public support, you'll get a similar response from the umpires. Serena already had disagreements with referees, and this didn't happen simply because there wasn't so much publicity.

Soliloquy of a Dogge · Sep 11, 2018

motherless said:
The umpire was in the right. This is not the first time Serena's had a meltdown either. In one example she was banned two years.

http://www.espn.com/sports/tennis/news/story?id=4699850

She was not banned. It was a probationary period.

Soliloquy of a Dogge · Sep 11, 2018

Tya said:
Has Ramos ever officiated a match by him? If not, what is your point?

The only issue here is consistency by Ramos. All indications point to him be a stickler for rules. How other officials rule means fuck all.

I'm referring to the whispers of umpires collectively boycotting Serena's matches. If it has any merit. There's a little bit of a bigger picture here in the sport than just one person or one incident.

StrayDog · Sep 11, 2018

Cult of personality strike again.

excelsiorlef · Sep 11, 2018

Erik Twice said:
"Refs are abused all the time but they don't complain, so tennis umpires shouldn't complain when they get abused" Is that really your argument?

I mean, this is basic worker rights. They are being abused for doing their job, and doing it properly, at that, and hence they are threaten a strike or boycott to demand better working conditions.

If you consider yourself "progressive", you should give a second look at what you are defending.

I'm talking about Tennis umpires... sorry I used the wrong term.

Literally players argue with them all the time. Criticize them all the time. Shit Serena's on court comments were pretty mild, relatively speaking

motherless · Sep 11, 2018

Soliloquy of a Dogge said:
She was not banned. It was a probationary period.

Thanks for the correction. I misread and will edit my post.

jett · Sep 11, 2018

The WTA's reaction to the situation was pathetic frankly, throwing the umpire under the bus completely and literally saying the players should be allowed to be coached anyway, despite the rule that was in place at the time of the match. It's really unbelievable how the American narrative has painted one of the most powerful figures in tennis today as the somehow indefenseless David versus the Goliath of a ref that barely made $600 on the day in question.

Yerffej said:
Serena was wrong and she fucked over the moment of her opponent winning. She's right about the double standard tho.

Is she though
http://www.tennisabstract.com/blog/2018/09/10/gender-differences-in-point-penalties/

Code:

Category        Matches  Penalties     P%
Women (all)        1895         13  0.69%
Women (slams)       490          6  1.22%
Women (finals)      228          2  0.88%

Men (all)          1689         16  0.95%
Men (slams)         234          6  2.56%
Men (finals)        371          5  1.35%

Is she

Tya · Sep 11, 2018

Soliloquy of a Dogge said:
I'm referring to the whispers of umpires collectively boycotting Serena's matches. If it has any merit. There's a little bit of a bigger picture here in the sport than just one person or one incident.

What the fuck are you talking about? This is "When did you stop beating your wife" type bullshit unless you have something to back it up.

Deleted member 32018 · Sep 11, 2018

excelsiorlef said:
Shit Serena's on court comments were pretty mild, relatively speaking

Her calling him sexist has wider ramifications (and rightly so if it was proven true) than a tennis player throwing out a frustrated cuss word.

Emergency & I · Sep 11, 2018

Serena acted like a child caught with her hand in the cookie jar. She then doubled down once it was shown that she had been at fault. She deflected blame at the official and then swerved the point to something else entirely. It was very basic and the defensive tactics of someone who knows they've done wrong.

TheGreatMightyPoo · Sep 11, 2018

steviejd1 said:
Her calling him sexist has wider ramifications (and rightly so if it was proven true) than a tennis player throwing out a frustrated cuss word.

Absolutely.

Soliloquy of a Dogge · Sep 11, 2018

steviejd1 said:
I've never heard Kyrgios get as personal towards an umpire as to have that umpire attacked from many, many people. This is what Serena has done by accusing Ramos of being sexist, a liar and a thief.

LastCaress said:
It's not really interesting though. If Kyrgios has a meltdown and threatens the umpire's livelihood and then gets ATP and public support, you'll get a similar response from the umpires. Serena already had disagreements with referees, and this didn't happen simply because there wasn't so much publicity.

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/ten...umes-umpire-Juan-Martin-del-Potro-Borna-Coric

"You realize you are costing people hundreds of thousands of dollars," Kyrgios fumed at the umpire.

"We are not playing for free out here."

Kyrgios continued to argue with the umpire over the decision before then turning his frustration to the line judge.

Kyrgios' outburst was the second time this week he has blasted an umpire as he intentionally lost his second set against Borna Coric 6-0 in the second round.

"He can screw up a number of times, nothing happens to him," Kyrgios said in the previous round.

"It's continual, like every time I play with him."

"Where the hell do you find these guys?"

He then turned to the crowd and said: "You want to be a referee? You're all eligible.

"You'll never see a bigger tank than the next three games."

That was from a quick google search just to cite. I can recount numerous occasions where Kyrgios has made statements towards the umpires telling them they're useless.

Deleted member 13628 · Sep 11, 2018

excelsiorlef said:
I'm talking about Tennis umpires... sorry I used the wrong term.

Literally players argue with them all the time. Criticize them all the time. Shit Serena's on court comments were pretty mild, relatively speaking

Yes. And those players get booked for it. All the time.

No, her comments were not mild, relatively speaking. Any player who goes on a tirade against an umpire for that long and then follows up by calling him/her a liar and thief is going to get penalized, and not just with Ramos. That's just begging to be booked.

She knew the next penalty would be a game loss and continued to provoke the umpire anyway (over something that had no merit to begin with). This was pure gamesmanship that is being dressed up as social justice.

Professor Quixote · Sep 11, 2018

Soupman Prime said:
Really is amazing how much vitriol and hate he's getting for making the correct calls. Serena is the one who blew up and made this whole thing worse than it is. Hopefully this doesn't ruin his livelihood.

Hazzuh said:
Sports fans who disrespect umpires and referees are trash.

Gross to see the WTA throw Ramos under a bus for doing his job correctly. Shame that more top umpires aren't as consistent as him.

Just because Serena violated the rules and the rules permitted Ramos to penalize Serena, doesn't mean he used his discretion correctly. How would you feel if you got ticketed for going 2 MPH over the speed limit?

I agree that Serena made things worse and should have avoided the situation. But to say that Ramos didn't violate the rulebook by penalizing her, isn't the same as him correctly handling the situation. Not issuing the third game penalty also would have been "doing his job correctly" and "making the correct call[]."

Benita · Sep 11, 2018

Dude got paid 600 bucks to not only umpire a grand slam final, but to get berated constantly and have his integrity questioned both during, and after the match, all because he had the gall to penalise one of the sorest losers the sport has seen, who happens to be a woman.

Honestly, miss me with the "relatively mild" line of bullshit.

Just because Serena didnt channel peak McEnroe doesn't mean that shit was "mild".

Gotdatmoney · Sep 11, 2018

Erik Twice said:
"Refs are abused all the time but they don't complain, so tennis umpires shouldn't complain when they get abused" Is that really your argument?

I mean, this is basic worker rights. They are being abused for doing their job, and doing it properly, at that, and hence they are threaten a strike or boycott to demand better working conditions.

If you consider yourself "progressive", you should give a second look at what you are defending.

Have you ever played sports before? This shit comes with being a ref at like any levek of competition. Make unpopular calls, get shit. If the refs are really out here about to boycott Serena then Serena is right.

Yall are gonna boycott thee most dominant black female athlete on the planet because she acted like a brat for a game. Sorry but there is no way this doesn't just shout, double standard to the nth degree. Are Kyrios matches also being boycott?

Deleted member 32018 · Sep 11, 2018

Soliloquy of a Dogge said:
https://www.express.co.uk/sport/ten...umes-umpire-Juan-Martin-del-Potro-Borna-Coric

Calling a man sexist in this day and age is far worse than all of what Kyrgios has said there as the man in question will get vilified at length. And Serena knew this.

Soliloquy of a Dogge · Sep 11, 2018

Tya said:
What the fuck are you talking about? This is "When did you stop beating your wife" type bullshit unless you have something to back it up.

I'm inclined to ask you the same thing? Do you even follow tennis? Do you know what type of standard this would set if chair umpires start boycotting certain players' matches if they are offended by outbursts towards them?

You clearly are out of your element and don't understand the repercussions it would have in the sport.

Bobson Dugnutt · Sep 11, 2018

we're not paying to see the umpires, no shit what a silly point. But if your favorite got cheated due to a flagrant abuse of the rules you'd soon be moaning about the lack of adequate officiating, they're there for a reason. when the guy has been thrown under the bus by the WTA and a lot of the US tennis community for applying the rules correctly it's no wonder they want a union. Good luck to them. A boycott seems a bit drastic though, but until that's more than rumours then I'm not going to pay that much heed.

Maybe another person might have been able to cool things down, but that shouldn't be solely on him.

LastCaress · Sep 11, 2018

Soliloquy of a Dogge said:
https://www.express.co.uk/sport/ten...umes-umpire-Juan-Martin-del-Potro-Borna-Coric

That was from a quick google search just to cite. I can recount numerous occasions where Kyrgios has made statements towards the umpires telling them they're useless.

Yes, and where was the ATP defending them against the referee? Players (in any sports) insulting referees is absolutely common. What is uncommon, and a good reason for the referees to unite, is for the professional league they're playing for going against them, specially for making the right call.

Sweeney Swift · Sep 11, 2018

excelsiorlef said:
Literally players argue with them all the time. Criticize them all the time. Shit Serena's on court comments were pretty mild, relatively speaking

Also the racists like that cartoonist were enabled. I simply don't feel bad for the ump because he's not dealing with sexism or racism from people emboldened by this, and not one comment from him decrying it

Erik Twice · Sep 11, 2018

excelsiorlef said:
I'm talking about Tennis umpires... sorry I used the wrong term.

Literally players argue with them all the time. Criticize them all the time. Shit Serena's on court comments were pretty mild, relatively speaking

Yeah and?

I mean, the fact that Serene was not the most abusive of abusers doesn't mean she wasn't abusive, because she was and quite a bit. And umpires are more than entitled to complain about that fact and demand better working conditions if their employers condone that abuse.

Professor Quixote said:
Just because Serena violated the rules and the rules permitted Ramos to penalize Serena, doesn't mean he used his discretion correctly. How would you feel if you got ticketed for going 2 MPH over the speed limit?

Breaking the racket and abusing the referee are not comparable to "going 2 MPH over the speed limit"

Even if he was wrong about the coaching (he wasn't) and it would be in poor discretion to apply the rules (it isn't), that would have only resulted on a warning.

bionic77 · Sep 11, 2018

jotun? said:
First call was technically correct, but if it really happens all the time then it maybe shouldn't have been called. Maybe he was just trying to be protective of the younger player. On its own, it wouldn't have meant much though, just a warning no penalty.

Second call was obvious, no way to not call that.

Third call shouldn't have come so quickly. He should have been more aware of the effect that it would have on the whole match, and how much it would take away from Naomi's success. He should have at LEAST given Serena an extra warning/reminder that she would face a game penalty if she didn't cool down.

I'd say he shares equal blame with Serena for ruining the match

Yeah thats how I saw it too.

Serena should have handled it better but so should the umpire.

And to be fair a lot of it is on the rules committee. They have rules they don't enforce. That puts the umps in a horrible spot. Most players are getting coaches, some players are taking advantage of time between serves, etc. Tennis has some work to do.

Deleted member 32018 · Sep 11, 2018

Soliloquy of a Dogge said:
offended by outbursts towards them?

There's not talk of boycotting because of the outburst of Serena, it's because of the way the tennis associations have handled it and not in any way supported him which led to him to be absolutely vilified in the public.

LastCaress · Sep 11, 2018

Professor Quixote said:
Just because Serena violated the rules and the rules permitted Ramos to penalize Serena, doesn't mean he used his discretion correctly. How would you feel if you got ticketed for going 2 MPH over the speed limit?

I agree that Serena made things worse and should have avoided the situation. But to say that Ramos didn't violate the rulebook by penalizing her, isn't the same as him correctly handling the situation. Not issuing the third game penalty also would have been "doing his job correctly" and "making the correct call[]."

This is absurd. Serena violated the rules three times. Not issuing a game penalty for being called a thief? If he's not going to call any violation, then maybe they should play without umpires.

excelsiorlef · Sep 11, 2018

steviejd1 said:
Her calling him sexist has wider ramifications (and rightly so if it was proven true) than a tennis player throwing out a frustrated cuss word.

I kinda like how much you're proving her point.

You downplay what the men do and play up what she said. To defend why all of a sudden now officials want to boycott....

Btw what she said was she felt that losing an entire game for calling him a thief felt to her like a sexist remark, note she is speaking of the action.

But I'm impressed that saying sexist is now such an above and beyond dire comment far worse than anything else.

MIMIC · Sep 11, 2018

This is fucking astonishing. I and MOST tennis fans were calling for umpires to be MORE strict. We got the introduction of the shot clock, which attempts to cut down on time violations....and now this shit?

I was honestly STUNNED when the WTA issued that ridiculous statement and when Katrina Adams made that bewildering statement about the bias against women players without citing to any sort of evidence, acting as if this was the prime example of what she was referencing.

DURING the controversy, all of the commentators were in agreement that Serena was in the wrong. Because everybody who watches tennis knew what the hell was going on.

Serena is one of my favorite players, but if this causes backlash against umpires, I'm going to be pissed.

excelsiorlef · Sep 11, 2018

Porsche said:
Yes. And those players get booked for it. All the time.

No, her comments were not mild, relatively speaking. Any player who goes on a tirade against an umpire for that long and then follows up by calling him/her a liar and thief is going to get penalized, and not just with Ramos. That's just begging to be booked.

She knew the next penalty would be a game loss and continued to provoke the umpire anyway (over something that had no merit to begin with). This was pure gamesmanship that is being dressed up as social justice.

Right but there isn't talks of boycotting their games.

Gotdatmoney · Sep 11, 2018

steviejd1 said:
There's not talk of boycotting because of the outburst of Serena, it's because of the way the tennis associations have handled it and not in any way supported him which led to him to be absolutely vilified in the public.

So she specifically should be boycotted for the way associations she does not speak for handled the issue? And you don't see how this isn't sexist to the utmost degree?

Brotherhood93 · Sep 11, 2018

I know we already have a large thread discussing the Serena situation but this is a real problem. Days after the situation and nobody has come close to any evidence to back up Serena's claim that he acted with any bias towards her because she's a woman. In fact, we've got history of even harsher violations given to male players from the same umpire.

If we want to review a wider issue of sexism in the sport then that is fine and even a good thing, perhaps we could start with what happenes to Cornet a few days earlier, but don't throw Ramos under the bus, he acted consistently and within the rules. Fortunately when you look outside of all the American coverage there have been people in tennis giving their support to the umpire, the ITF upheld his decision and fined Serena for her behaviour and I have seen Annabel Croft, Anne Keothavong and Andrew Castle all support Ramos on this side of the pond.

Deleted member 32018 · Sep 11, 2018

excelsiorlef said:
But I'm impressed that saying sexist is now such an above and beyond dire comment far worse than anything else.

If it's a false accusation, yes it is because of how important a subject it has rightly become.

Swiggins · Sep 11, 2018

This thread is wild man.

Serena acted like a spoiled child and now has to pay the consequences.

Deleted member 862 · Sep 11, 2018

It's so hard for people to back down and just admit they were wrong even after her own coach vindicated the umpire.

Professor Quixote · Sep 11, 2018

Porsche said:
No, her comments were not mild, relatively speaking. Any player who goes on a tirade against an umpire for that long and then follows up by calling him/her a liar and thief is going to get penalized, and not just with Ramos.

For a game penalty in a competitive grand slam final? It was absolutely mild. I've watched it plenty of times. I don't doubt that most players would have received a warning or a point penalty if they had previously been warned. I'm confident that in the same situation, with a game penalty on the line, most umpires would have swallowed the whistle for other players.

LastCaress · Sep 11, 2018

excelsiorlef said:
Right but there isn't talks of boycotting their games.

Did the ATP/WTA defend the player against the umpire? Because they specifically mention "The umpiring fraternity is thoroughly disturbed at being abandoned by the WTA".

Deepwater · Sep 11, 2018

dietpepsi said:
Out here talking about everybody but the winner. I know why, I get it. But poor whatever-her-name-is.

Nobody's talking about the men's winner either

Soliloquy of a Dogge · Sep 11, 2018

steviejd1 said:
Calling a man sexist in this day and age is far worse than all of what Kyrgios has said there as the man in question will get vilified at length. And Serena knew this.

So Kyrgios accuses a chair umpire of stealing prize money, saying that people in the crowd can do just as good a job and more but... that's not out as much of a transgression because Serena dared bring up sexism, something which is prevalent in the sport? Questioning somebody's integrity and ability to do their job just like Serena did apparently is a lesser offense, thanks for educating me.

The point can be argued whether or not Serena was in the right or wrong to accuse him of that charge. More than fair. Please don't pretend to know what's going on in her head considering the bullshit she's faced down her entire career. How presumptuous of you. Sexism is a major issue in the sport, regardless of all the gains it has made in terms of equal prize money and advancing women forward. I don't think Ramos is a sexist but I'm not going to downplay Kyrgios' conduct compared to Serena's just because of one word. That is ridiculous.

excelsiorlef · Sep 11, 2018

Erik Twice said:
Yeah and?

I mean, the fact that Serene was not the most abusive of abusers doesn't mean she wasn't abusive, because she was and quite a bit. And umpires are more than entitled to complain about that fact and demand better working conditions if their employers condone that abuse.

Her words were far less than what many others have said but only now is there talks of boycotting.

.exe · Sep 11, 2018

Umpire was in the right. Sad to see him get put on blast for doing his job. Serena had a warning in her pocket and still smashed her racket. Then tripled down and derailed the game further. What do people expect?

Deleted member 8861 · Sep 11, 2018

It is not an umpire's job to degree what actions are sanctioned by the rules or not. An umpire just enforces those rules.

And an umpire has the right to enforce those rules.

Even if Ramos disproportionately punishes female tennis players (is there even any data or analysis on this?), that does not suddenly mean Serena is absolved of those violations. The correct action to take, then, would be ensuring umpires -particularly Ramos- enforce(s) this same standard on other games as well. (If there is such a fact though, simply demoting Ramos would also work though.)

And honestly, Serena calling the umpire a liar and a thief is serious in my eyes. It's like accusing a courtroom judge of taking bribes. It's an accusation that the umpire has deliberately abused his rank/duty/job/work/position, and arguing that that comes from a place of (deliberate?) sexism takes this even further. An analogue would be something like an umpire telling a player he probably didn't win legitimately b/c he probably uses illegal steroids anyway.

Now, more generally speaking, I don't deny that there's most likely a problem of umpires excusing more violent or insulting behaviour by men compared to women.
But that is a conversation that can be had in a different context, and it sure as fucking hell doesn't mean an umpire makes an unfavorable call due to (deliberate) sexism.

Professor Quixote said:
Just because Serena violated the rules and the rules permitted Ramos to penalize Serena, doesn't mean he used his discretion correctly. How would you feel if you got ticketed for going 2 MPH over the speed limit?

I agree that Serena made things worse and should have avoided the situation. But to say that Ramos didn't violate the rulebook by penalizing her, isn't the same as him correctly handling the situation. Not issuing the third game penalty also would have been "doing his job correctly" and "making the correct call[]."

Seriously asking- why is Ramos not penalizing Serena the "correct call" in your eyes?

Deleted member 4372 · Sep 11, 2018

Deepwater said:
Nobody's talking about the men's winner either

There was a men's match too?

LastCaress · Sep 11, 2018

Soliloquy of a Dogge said:
So Kyrgios accuses a chair umpire of stealing prize money, saying that people in the crowd can do just as good a job and more but... that's not out as much of a transgression because Serena dared bring up sexism, something which is prevalent in the sport? Questioning somebody's integrity and ability to do their job just like Serena did apparently is a lesser offense, thanks for educating me.

The point can be argued whether or not Serena was in the right or wrong to accuse him of that charge. More than fair. Please don't pretend to know what's going on in her head considering the bullshit she's faced down her entire career. How presumptuous of you. Sexism is a major issue in the sport, regardless of all the gains it has made in terms of equal prize money and advancing women forward. I don't think Ramos is a sexist but I'm not going to downplay Kyrgios' conduct compared to Serena's just because of one word. That is ridiculous.

Where is the ATP press release taking Kyrgios' side?

Tennis officials shaken by lack of support for chair umpire Carlos Ramos

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