Tennis officials shaken by lack of support for chair umpire Carlos Ramos

[Deleted member 16609]

Refs get yelled at and harshly criticized all the time and they don't start wanting to organize a fucking boycott of every player.

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You don't watch sports. And many others who posted in the other thread as well. Players get heavily fined and suspended if they do something like that. Players know if they did something like what Serena did a public apology is directed after the game. Serena didn't do jack shit after the game. All she did make it about herself and blame it on sexism. Which wasn't the case for that GS event.
http://www.tennisabstract.com/blog/2018/09/10/gender-differences-in-point-penalties/

Category        Matches  Penalties     P%
Women (all)        1895         13  0.69%
Women (slams)       490          6  1.22%
Women (finals)      228          2  0.88%

Men (all)          1689         16  0.95%
Men (slams)         234          6  2.56%
Men (finals)        371          5  1.35%

 

[Erik Twice]

Her words were far less than what many others have said but only now is there talks of boycotting.

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They are threatening a boycott because their employers are condoning the abuse, which has not happened before.

It's clearly mentioned in the opening post:

"The umpiring fraternity is thoroughly disturbed at being abandoned by the WTA," Richard Ings, a retired, elite Gold Badge umpire told ESPN.com on Tuesday. "They are all fearful that they could be the next Ramos. They feel that no one has their back when they have to make unpopular calls."

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Even then, they are absolutely entitled to boycott and complain if they are being abused, even if they haven't done so before.

Again, why shouldn't they threaten with a boycott or strike if their employer condones the abuse perpetrated by one of the players?

 

[Deleted member 32018]

So she specifically should be boycotted for the way associations she does not speak for handled the issue? And you don't see how this isn't sexist to the utmost degree?

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It's for fear of if they have to penalize Serena again, she could quite easily call them sexist and again they will get vilified because they don't get the support from the tennis associations saying they followed the rules. Nothing to do with being sexist. I'm sure there are many umpires that don't want to umpire Kyrgios too because of what a spoilt brat he can also be.

 

[Soliloquy of a Dogge]

all because he had the gall to penalise one of the sorest losers the sport has seen, who happens to be a woman.

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Era gonna era. "One of the sorest losers the sport has seen"... a laughable notion, but you do you.

 

[Gonzalez]

I'm talking about Tennis umpires... sorry I used the wrong term.

Literally players argue with them all the time. Criticize them all the time. Shit Serena's on court comments were pretty mild, relatively speaking

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She called him sexist. That's a grenade nowadays to say something like that, compared to the firecracker that is cussing somebody out. Plus she has a really loud, and vocal fan base who spend lots of money on things being advertised on TV.

 

[Deepwater]

Calling a man sexist in this day and age is far worse than all of what Kyrgios has said there as the man in question will get vilified at length. And Serena knew this.

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Ah, the rhetorical brother of "being called a racist is the worst thing to ever happen" except instead of racism it's now sexism

 

[Deepwater]

There was a men's match too?

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On Sunday

 

[excelsiorlef]

If it's a false accusation, yes it is because of how important a subject it has rightly become.

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I can't restate enough how much you're proving her point.

You're getting this worked up because she said she felt his remark was sexist. Calling it worse than anything else.

 

[Deleted member 32018]

The point can be argued whether or not Serena was in the right or wrong to accuse him of that charge. More than fair. Please don't pretend to know what's going on in her head considering the bullshit she's faced down her entire career. How presumptuous of you. Sexism is a major issue in the sport, regardless of all the gains it has made in terms of equal prize money and advancing women forward. I don't think Ramos is a sexist but I'm not going to downplay Kyrgios' conduct compared to Serena's just because of one word. That is ridiculous.

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I know there is sexism in the sport and in every walk of life (I see how my sister gets treated as she works in the STEM field), you don't need to use that condescending tone. It still does not give her the excuse to throw out false accusations like she did.

Ah, the rhetorical brother of "being called a racist is the worst thing to ever happen" except instead of racism it's now sexism

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If it's a false accusation and can ruin someones career and possibly life it is quite a big deal I would say. It also does more harm than good. If the person IS sexist or IS racist then that would be a completely different matter and they deserve what would be coming to them.

 

[Gonzalez]

Ah, the rhetorical brother of "being called a racist is the worst thing to ever happen" except instead of racism it's now sexism

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But is Ramos sexist?

 

[Benita]

Era gonna era. "One of the sorest losers the sport has seen"... a laughable notion, but you do you.

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Where's the lie?

How many times has Serena explained away a loss through injury, fatigue, stress, mistakes, umpiring, the crowd etc, as opposed to simply saying "yeah she played better than me"?

 

[i like big butts]

The thing with Kyrgios is no one really takes him seriously and no one really likes him. Like, Australia doesn't even like him and thinks he's a huge tosser and we're the country who backed Lleyton Hewitt. While I have no doubt umpires should be throwing a heavier book at him and there's some latent sexism that is allowing Kyrgios to get away with his bullshit, the difference between him and Williams is like James Harden vs. Mike Conley disputing a foul call. There's just a huge gulf in respectability in the eyes of the public.

 

[BernardoOne]

Her words were far less than what many others have said but only now is there talks of boycotting.

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It's almost like in this situation they are getting a pretty extreme amount of abuse and harassment or something, and associations abandoned the fast as hell instead of sticking up for someone who was doing his job correctly. Ya know, that might have a tiny bit to do with it. Why are basically ignoring the entirety of the situation?

 

[Deleted member 8861]

I can't restate enough how much you're proving her point.

You're getting this worked up because she said she felt his remark was sexist. Calling it worse than anything else.

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Why do you think "you're treating me unfavorably because of my gender, and deliberately so" isn't a serious accusation to make?

I'm not saying that takes precedence over other considerations.

Accusing a man of sexism (especially deliberate sexism) can be a false accusation as well. And that's obviously a really, really gross idea to anyone who isn't overtly sexist.

E: And calling someone sexist is obviously not as harmful as calling a PoC a racial slur for example, but it's, I think quite obviously, a very harsh accusation.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

It's for fear of if they have to penalize Serena again, she could quite easily call them sexist and again they will get vilified because they don't get the support from the tennis associations saying they followed the rules. Nothing to do with being sexist. I'm sure there are many umpires that don't want to umpire Kyrgios too because of what a spoilt brat he can also be.

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Serena Williams has been playing tennis for how long? This shit is a fucking joke. There is not some huge precedent of Serena out here turning associations on umps. This is thee silliest reasoning ever. Tennis players and athletes as a whole do this shit all the time, the get their penalties, they get their fines, the shit blows over because that's how sports goes.

What doesn't happen is refs and umps literally boycotting the officiation of players they don't like. You think after all the shit players in Tennis do all the fucking time, Serena Williams is the player to die on a hill for? You don't think with how sexist tennis is and can be proven to be this isn't going to be a fucking obvious lightbulb that Serena's main point is utlimately correct? Hilarious.

The ump did what the ump has the powers to do. A player acted like a brat. It happens. This isn't deeper than that but some of yall out here acting like a woman in tennis, a black woman at that, saying some shit that you don't agree with is suddenly cause for the nuclear option. But she has no point doe.

 

[Deleted member 13628]

For a game penalty in a competitive grand slam final? It was absolutely mild. I've watched it plenty of times. I don't doubt that most players would have received a warning or a point penalty if they had previously been warned. I'm confident that in the same situation, with a game penalty on the line, most umpires would have swallowed the whistle for other players.

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Yes. And she was warned. Twice. Those two violations were the "warnings".

You rarely see a game penalty because everyone else would have shut the fuck up at that point. Ramos had to do it because Serena forced her to.

Bottom line, this all comes down to just really liking Serena Williams and the media/merchandising people having a financial stake in defending her. That's all it boils down to. All of the so called defenses for her behavior have been shot down and are baseless or even self-contradictory. Nobody would have any problem with the officiating if the roles were reversed between Serena and Osaka. Then you would all be saying "Osaka you gotta keep it together on the big stage, these are the rules! Look at how strong and mentally focused Serena is! Be like her! I hope you learn from this!".

 

[Deepwater]

But is Ramos sexist?

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Framing it as one of the worst things you can call somebody is hyperbole and that's my only point in response to that post

 

[Creation_Scapes]

Era gonna era.

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Care to explain this??

 

[Absolute]

Whataboutism: The Thread

Serena Williams has done many great things in her life. She has also suffered a lot because of her sex and the colour of her skin. She was completely in the wrong with the way she acted in the final and the WTA throwing the umpire under the bus is a disgrace.

Once again I post that the real tragedy here is Osaka not getting the recognition she deserves.

 

[jett]

Protip: everyone thinks Kyrgios is a dipshit. I don't know why is even brought up in this thread. He has been penalized, fined and suspended for his antics multiple times.

Seriously asking- why is Ramos not penalizing Serena the "correct call" in your eyes?

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Because Serena must be treated with kids' gloves, for some reason.

 

[Deepwater]

I know there is sexism in the sport and in every walk of life (I see how my sister gets treated as she works in the STEM field), you don't need to use that condescending tone. It still does not give her the excuse to throw out false accusations like she did.



If it's a false accusation and can ruin someones career and possibly life it is quite a big deal I would say. It also does more harm than good. If the person IS sexist or IS racist then that would be a completely different matter and they deserve what would be coming to them.

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You'll be surprised that being accused of racism or sexism Is not an instant death sentence to probably most people who come under accusation of such. In fact, some people get rewarded for it!

 

[excelsiorlef]

Protip: everyone thinks Kyrgios is a dipshit. I don't know why is even brought up in this thread. He has been penalized, fined and suspended for his antics multiple times.


Because Serena must be treated with kids' gloves, for some reason.

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I mean we have at least one person in here claiming Serena is worse than him.

And several acting like sexist is an awful slur above and beyond many other things.

 

[Deleted member 13628]

They are threatening a boycott because their employers are condoning the abuse, which has not happened before.

It's clearly mentioned in the opening post:



Even then, they are absolutely entitled to boycott and complain if they are being abused, even if they haven't done so before.

Again, why shouldn't they threaten with a boycott or strike if their employer condones the abuse perpetrated by one of the players?

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Celebrity worship > actual workers' rights

Get with the program

 

[Deleted member 8861]

You'll be surprised that being accused of racism or sexism Is not an instant death sentence to probably most people who come under accusation of such. In fact, some people get rewarded for it!

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That does not mean calling someone sexist is not a heavy accusation.

Is it as certainly/broadly/severely harmful to someone as other epithets can be? No. But it's still a very heavy accusation to make, especially towards someone whose very profession is making unbiased choices.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I almost expect folks to start calling it the s word soon.

It's utterly telling that the word sexist is being treated as an insult above all insults.

 

[itchi]

I don't watch a lot of sport only a bit of soccer and formula 1 and every week people complain about how inconsistent and bad the refs are at applying the rules equally. Then you have people claiming favouritism for certain drivers by the officials, but really it all comes down to people just being salty that they lost. Unless this umpire has a proven track record of targeting women or a race more harshly than others I don't think more of it than that.

 

[Deepwater]

That does not mean calling someone sexist is not a heavy accusation.

Is it as certainly/broadly/severely harmful to someone as other epithets can be? No. But it's still a very heavy accusation to make, especially towards someone whose very profession is making unbiased choices.

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No sports official in charge of enforcing rules is unbiased(and I don't mean in the bigoted way), especially if they have discretion in picking which rules to enforce (which many of them do).

 

[Gonzalez]

And several acting like sexist is an awful slur above and beyond many other things.

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It's not a slur, it's an accusation. Especially using an accusation that is a real hot button topic to somebody who hasn't been proven to be one yet.

Edit: Fucking shit, everybody is moving faster than me!

 

[Erik Twice]

I can't restate enough how much you're proving her point.

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Hey, why not reply to my post? All the explanations you seek are there. Or do you disagree with it? Do you think they shouldn't strike for better working conditions? Or that they shouldn't complain about their employer condoning abuse?

You'll be surprised that being accused of racism or sexism Is not an instant death sentence to probably most people who come under accusation of such. In fact, some people get rewarded for it!

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Yeah, he's getting a double reward of abuse and death threats with a little threatening his livehood sprinkled in. So lucky of him.

Celebrity worship > actual workers' rights

Get with the program

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ERA is truly a progressive place, isn't it?

 

[GitarooMan]

Once again I post that the real tragedy here is Osaka not getting the recognition she deserves.

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I think this is way overblown and not a "tragedy". She got her winners share and the ranking points. So the ceremony wasn't perfect, I think she'll live. Only a very slim minority are making some crazy claim she didn't deserve to win.

 

[Deepwater]

Hey, why not reply to my post? All the explanations you seek are there. Or do you disagree with it? Do you think they shouldn't strike for better working conditions? Or that they shouldn't complain about their employer condoning abuse?


Yeah, he's getting a double reward of abuse and death threats with a little threatening his livehood sprinkled in. So lucky of him.


ERA is truly a progressive place, isn't it?

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His livelihood is not threatened. Nor did I imply that he is deserving of any harassment he's gotten since the match.

 

[Tya]

I almost expect folks to start calling it the s word soon.

It's utterly telling that the word sexist is being treated as an insult above all insults.

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So you think Ramos shouldn't think anything of being accused of sexism because reasons? It isn't a big deal in 2018 to be accused of being sexist?

 

[chezzymann]

The WTA's reaction to the situation was pathetic frankly, throwing the umpire under the bus completely and literally saying the players should be allowed to be coached anyway, despite the rule that was in place at the time of the match. It's really unbelievable how the American narrative has painted one of the most powerful figures in tennis today as the somehow indefenseless David versus the Goliath of a ref that barely made $600 on the day in question.



Is she though
http://www.tennisabstract.com/blog/2018/09/10/gender-differences-in-point-penalties/

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Category        Matches  Penalties     P%
Women (all)        1895         13  0.69%
Women (slams)       490          6  1.22%
Women (finals)      228          2  0.88%

Men (all)          1689         16  0.95%
Men (slams)         234          6  2.56%
Men (finals)        371          5  1.35%

But that breaks the narrative people are instantly assuming is true

 

[Gotdatmoney]

What Serena did is like the equivalent of a basketball player jawing at the ref and then losing their shit and literally talking knowing they are going to get a tech. They know what they are doing, they just are trying to make a point. People are acting like the shit is deeper than it really is. My only actual issue is after Serena lost the match I think she should have just shut up and left the comments to post game press conference. Let your opponent have their moment, that girl worked hard, don't make it about you at all.

As far as the ref, again, this is the equivalent of basketball refs thinking the 2 min report is just the league not having refs backs. The leagues have the back of who makes them money. People are not going to get in a line and praise refs and umps. Shit is not how sports work.

 

[B.O.O.M.]

I mean we have at least one person in here claiming Serena is worse than him.

And several acting like sexist is an awful slur above and beyond many other things.

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Accusing someone to be discriminating based on the sex who they deal with in a professional setting, is an big accusation. Don't downplay this. Funyarinpa above is correct. Ever seen someone get this accusation in a professional setting?

The player in this situation blurted out a bunch of nonsense without actually knowing anything about the umpire. She is in the wrong. Doesn't mean she is the devil or some shit..but she is in the wrong.

 

[Deleted member 8861]

No sports official in charge of enforcing rules is unbiased(and I don't mean in the bigoted way), especially if they have discretion in picking which rules to enforce (which many of them do).

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While I'd agree with you to some extent, that doesn't mean accusing the umpire of sexism is any more justified.

 

[Deleted member 13628]

I almost expect folks to start calling it the s word soon.

It's utterly telling that the word sexist is being treated as an insult above all insults.

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I'm sure if the umpire called Serena Williams a sexist you wouldn't have much problem with it.

 

[StayHandsome]

Did they boycott after Pliskova smashed her racquet on the umpire's chair? Imagine if Serena smashed her racquet on an umpire's chair even at a smaller event like Miami Open LMAO.



I don't see why this warranted another thread though.

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They aren't protesting the treatment of the umpire, they're protesting the lack of official support he was given in the wake of the controversy.

 

[BernardoOne]

I almost expect folks to start calling it the s word soon.

It's utterly telling that the word sexist is being treated as an insult above all insults.

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I think you really are missing the whole fucking situation once again. It doesn't matter how much of a insult it is is. It matters that he's getting mass harassment and death threats because of it , Just because he did his job correctly. That's not fucking ok.

 

[ahoyhoy]

The WTA's reaction to the situation was pathetic frankly, throwing the umpire under the bus completely and literally saying the players should be allowed to be coached anyway, despite the rule that was in place at the time of the match. It's really unbelievable how the American narrative has painted one of the most powerful figures in tennis today as the somehow indefenseless David versus the Goliath of a ref that barely made $600 on the day in question.



Is she though
http://www.tennisabstract.com/blog/2018/09/10/gender-differences-in-point-penalties/

Category        Matches  Penalties     P%
Women (all)        1895         13  0.69%
Women (slams)       490          6  1.22%
Women (finals)      228          2  0.88%

Men (all)          1689         16  0.95%
Men (slams)         234          6  2.56%
Men (finals)        371          5  1.35%

Is she

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Has anyone actually tried to explain why these numbers don't sink Serena's argument or are they just being ignored?

 

[shinra-bansho]

What they should really do is revise the dumb rules so as to avoid their subjective application.

 

[Nocturnal]

The bigger issue is what she said off the court, that took away from Naomi's win rather than the incident during the match. To me that was disrespectful to both her opponent and extremely hurtful to the umpire's professional character. Serena is one of the most influential athletes in the sport, don't mean she should be able to trample all over the rules and bend them to her will.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Hey, why not reply to my post? All the explanations you seek are there. Or do you disagree with it? Do you think they shouldn't strike for better working conditions? Or that they shouldn't complain about their employer condoning abuse?

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By all means but sorry if it's not something that it's all of a sudden now over comments on the court that were mild.

And I'm sorry that people loosing their shit because she said she felt his remarks were sexist is also something

 

[Deleted member 20284]

They have every right to be upset. They're not perfect but a sore loser repeatedly escalated events during a match and was repeatedly penalised according to the rules exactly. This umpire was paid $633.00 by the US Open to put up with the repeated tantrums of the runner up cashing in $2.5Million.

Serena is one of the all time greats, no doubt. She fucked up that day and ruined the winner's ceremony. The crowd were just as bad, disgusting. The media are a shit show as usual. I thought more of ERA but WTF I was I expecting I suppose.

I'd like to see more proactive support from the WTA, there's no way in hell Krygios would receive such leniency if this happened to him (if he had a coach that is).

EDIT: Nice the International Tennis Federation (ITF) gave support to Ramos, quoting their PR Ramos acted with "professionalism and integrity".

 

[Brotherhood93]

I don't watch a lot of sport only a bit of soccer and formula 1 and every week people complain about how inconsistent and bad the refs are at applying the rules equally. Then you have people claiming favouritism for certain drivers by the officials, but really it all comes down to people just being salty that they lost. Unless this umpire has a proven track record of targeting woman or a race more harshly than others I don't think more of it than that.

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There is definitely 100% an issue with consistency in applying the rules in tennis. That is never going to be eliminated but it could be a lot better, that is the issue of having several umpires using their own discretion in when and when not to apply the rules though. Ramos is known for being strict and despite a lot of attention on him from the final nobody has been able to point to inconsistencies that would back up Serena's points. We're talking about an ump who once gave Nick Kyrgios a violation for saying "towel" too aggressively. I don't particularly blame the WTA for backing their star or for wanting issues of sexism to be addressed but they really should have acknowledged that Ramos was, at the very worst, firm but fair with the rules.

 

[Professor Quixote]

Breaking the racket and abusing the referee are not comparable to "going 2 MPH over the speed limit"

Even if he was wrong about the coaching (he wasn't) and it would be in poor discretion to apply the rules (it isn't), that would have only resulted on a warn

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I'm not arguing about the racket abuse. And the bolded is just your conclusion, not really a counterargument. That analogy essentially is the core of my argument -- that in this instance, the game penalty she received is analogous (or closer to than not) to getting ticketed for going 2 MPH over the limit. In other words, that third game penalty was such a disproportional penalty for what Serena had done up until that point, that it was a poor use of discretion. Saying it's not comparable is just a conclusion. Why isn't it comparable?

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand your second paragraph.

This is absurd. Serena violated the rules three times. Not issuing a game penalty for being called a thief? If he's not going to call any violation, then maybe they should play without umpires.

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Thief is a tame insult, especially given what was at stake. Refs get called worse and use their discretion to not penalize the players all the time. This should have been one of those instances.

 

[Nocturnal]

dp

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Has anyone actually tried to explain why these numbers don't sink Serena's argument or are they just being ignored?

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Those numbers don't tell you anything about actual behaviour. Nothing about those numbers say that for instance, men are not typically more abusive of refs than women and the base where they get penalties isn't higher.

That comparison doesn't tell you anything. It's contextless.

I don't even think it was a sex thing more than Serena just being a salty sore loser but this comparison does nothing for me.

I also in general just find it funny we are actually trying to argue there exists no double standard for how women are expected to act in sports compared to men.

 

[Monkey D.]

What is the take on the actual call. Did Serena receive coaching signals? Was it caught on camera?

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She said she didnt. Her coach did admit that he send signals and yes there is footage of him doing it and her looking in his direction.

 

[CesareNorrez]

The WTA's reaction to the situation was pathetic frankly, throwing the umpire under the bus completely and literally saying the players should be allowed to be coached anyway, despite the rule that was in place at the time of the match. It's really unbelievable how the American narrative has painted one of the most powerful figures in tennis today as the somehow indefenseless David versus the Goliath of a ref that barely made $600 on the day in question.



Is she though
http://www.tennisabstract.com/blog/2018/09/10/gender-differences-in-point-penalties/

Category        Matches  Penalties     P%
Women (all)        1895         13  0.69%
Women (slams)       490          6  1.22%
Women (finals)      228          2  0.88%

Men (all)          1689         16  0.95%
Men (slams)         234          6  2.56%
Men (finals)        371          5  1.35%

Is she

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These statistics do not tell the whole story, and I wish they would stop being used.

Umpire's use their judgement, that's something statistic don't show. The statistics also don't show the number of soft warnings. It's so disingenuous to keep using these stats.