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Tennis officials shaken by lack of support for chair umpire Carlos Ramos
- Thread starter Squarehard
- Start date
We gonna pretend like racial bias from police isn't a thing?
Which is why I said, mistakingly thinking you brought that in (apologies), that it's not a good place to go analogy wise.
I never said she was? Sour losing at the time of the meltdown. During the match.
You mean like these hypothetical death threats the referee received? Because I've been asking for evidence of these death threats since this is now one of the arguments used against Serena and so far no one wants to actually answer.
Americans sure are sore losers when they lose at something they're great at. I remember the Dream Teams losing at the Olympics and some players acting like shit towards the refs and opponents.
Umpires are like refs in football (soccer). Some are more strict, others let things slide. Serena HAD to know about how this umpire officiates, and respond accordingly.
She was getting beaten by a young talent, and threw a fit out of frustration. The calls were spot on and by the book. Everything else are false narratives.
Umpires are like refs in football (soccer). Some are more strict, others let things slide. Serena HAD to know about how this umpire officiates, and respond accordingly.
She was getting beaten by a young talent, and threw a fit out of frustration. The calls were spot on and by the book. Everything else are false narratives.
I don't for one second believe a boycott will happen and I think it'd be ridiculous if it did but I don't think the issue is with players getting heated. As the headline states it's a lack of backing for the umpire who did his job within the rules and, as yet, not had any evidence against him to support Serena's claims (and the WTA could publish figures that support them if they did). Serena called into the question the integrity of the official and the WTA, USTA and large sections of the media sided with Serena on little to no basis other than they thought call(s) against her were too harsh. I can't say I can recall this happening in any sport before, usually you get statements supporting the officials very quickly from all concerned when someone calls their reputation into question.
If you feel Ramos acted correctly, which at the very least can be argued he did, and were a tennis official then I think you'd have every right to be worried about this outcome but like I said a boycott of Serena would be silly.
Again, people in here are cool being called a thief in a professional setting in a way that questioning your authority and integrity? 'It's not a big deal'?
Now imagine that happening when you are also being televised live to millions of people.
Wow, people in here are much nicer and nobler than I thought. /s
Now imagine that happening when you are also being televised live to millions of people.
Wow, people in here are much nicer and nobler than I thought. /s
I think it proves a broader point that we're automatically assuming guilt of various biases, even for people that don't exist. There's no reason to think this dude was some sexist and specifically penalized Serena because he has something against women, but that's what people are running with automatically because people are in that mind set of assuming nefarious intentions in everyone.
And how well did that work at that point? By the time of her pseudo-concession speech it was a tad too late. Switch "indirectly" with "not on purpose" if it makes you feel better.
https://www.resetera.com/posts/12526289/
I don't think the boycott will actually end up happening but the issue isn't a player getting heated, it was what followed it.
There is only a handful of Gold standard tennis umpires. It ain't an easy role to fill or achieve.
You're not understanding what the potential boycott/unease about this situation is if you think it's that simple.
They're not shaken because Williams yelled at him. They're shaken because Williams yelled at him after the umpire had made the correct calls, declared it was a sexist act, then media outlets and thousands of users piled on the umpire while the WTA stood by Williams.
As Kyrgios has been mentioned in this thread, I'll use him as an example of why they're not the same. Kyrgios is a clown. The Australian media treat his outbursts the way any outburst should be treated: with disdain and criticism. Same with the general public. The closest thing to a defense for Kyrgios is "well he's young and exciting to watch. We need a bit of personality in our sport." No one's arguing the umpire's ever in the wrong in a scuff with Kyrgios, let alone that the umpire's making decisions with an undercurrent of sexism, and that Kyrgios is fighting for injustice.
If you can't see how one player yelling at an umpire in an immature spat versus an entire mass of people and journalists calling sexism after the correct calls were made is different I don't know what to tell you.
I think this specific umpire has more room for doubt than cops... which is why I said bringing cops in is a terrible idea in trying to make your point.
Everyone bringing up other players yelling at the ump or smashing rackets and not getting the same penalty, which call were they on?
First strike gets a warning (Serena's coach giving her signals got her a warning), second strike gets a point loss (what happened after she smashed her racket), third strike is a game loss (what happened after she yelled at the ump and threatened his job).
Serena knew she was on her third strike when she had her outburst and kept pushing. Whether you think that was noble or not is up to you, but let's keep things in context.
First strike gets a warning (Serena's coach giving her signals got her a warning), second strike gets a point loss (what happened after she smashed her racket), third strike is a game loss (what happened after she yelled at the ump and threatened his job).
Serena knew she was on her third strike when she had her outburst and kept pushing. Whether you think that was noble or not is up to you, but let's keep things in context.
Ok, how many people are after Osaka? I haven't heard anything in any of the news that she has faced significant harassment for the final match. Just like I haven't seen anything about the umpire receiving any death threats. And "pseudo-concession speech"? It wasn't false at all. I watched the match, she never directed her anger at Osaka, even when mad at the umpire. She conceded the match just fine when she lost.
The point I was making is enforcing rules/laws doesn't inherently make one sexist/racist or homo/trans/insert anything else phobic by default, which seems to be the immediate take in literally any case in anything right now. There are both rules and rules of decorum and Serena violated both. That's all there is to this.
It depends on the situation. In a game with the 2 best women's tennis players in the world for all the marbles, one of whom has struggled to overcome racism and sexism for years and one who has and has many years of that ahead of her, and I'm a man in a position of authority, I'm going to take that into consideration. Any professional setting where I have an opportunity to hear a woman out who is clearly passionate about the subject and isn't like an immediate threat to my safety or something, why not? Take a breath, hear her out, it's not the end of the world.
Did you just serious just do the "sexism and racism are just a common excuse" thing?
If Serena is the victim of bias, why has Venus never been accused of the same ill behavior or suffered the same on-court unfairness? To my knowledge, anyway.
Your specific example is what do you think will happen if you yell at a cop who pulls you over.... which is why I said depends on your race.... because the reactions will be different
Frankly, who knows what kind of shit she's faced and has had to overcome, who knows what has held her back, not all of it is going to be readily transparent to an outside observer. https://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/22/sports/tennis/23cnd-tennis.html That's one example of unfairness that she had to go out of her way to help correct.
So he had previously received a warning and the racket breaking tantrum was his second infraction?
As a general demographic, haven't we already established that one's personal issues are not an excuse for acting like an idiot?
The amount of whataboutism, deflection, and goalpost-moving exhibited in this thread and the other is truly incredible. It's literally an endless circle of mobthink getting shown point for point why their argument is wrong, moving onto another narrative, ad infinitum. amazing.
These are just the examples I saw.
I was more interested in news articles and something more substantial than that. While that is always horrible, you will always find stuff like that in sports, you cannot lay the blame solely on Serena Williams for mad fans who would blame here anyways even if she didn't suffer a meltdown. That's why I'm interested in actual news sources about it and not some comments on facebook (I think). You cannot use this as proof as a constant barrage of harassment unlike say the article which mentions the umpire "being thrown into the wolves". You don't think if she was harassed to the point where it was damaging it wouldn't be in the news?
I'm sure he did, which is why he was respectful in tone to both parties and did his job to the best of his abilities with a high level of professionalism. He didn't raise his voice or talk down to Williams. He respected what she was saying and disagreed.
Because we're currently playing a game of tennis? Where not only is this not the time to be having a back and forth about the nuances of inequality, especially when you're being yelled at by an enraged Williams, but also because tennis has strict time rules between points (this in itself can lead to violations) and it would be unfair to Osaka to allow an extended delay to take place. It's not like he shut her up either. For all intents and purposes, he did take a breath, he did hear her out, and what she said was rude, insulting, disrespectful, and called into question the integrity of the official. That's worth a code violation and I'm not sure how you could argue otherwise.
He had a continuous breakdown consisting of him constantly ignoring the coach going to pick up one racket, sitting down, destroying it, and getting back up to get another racket. That isn't worth multiple penalties?
It blows my mind how much support Serena is getting from the US media but I'm tired of talking about this fiasco. The fact is that she was 100% responsible for everything that happened from the racket smash on and it was embarrassing to watch, especially when predictably pulled the sexism card.
You do not understand how tennis works. If it was the 2nd code violation, then it's a point loss. If it is the 3rd code violation, it's a game loss.
This whataboutism is hilarious.
Venus received a coaching violation from the same chair umpire, by the way.
But that's beside the point. This is a bit of an aside but it was a recurring theme in the other thread and I am sick and tired of people, especially white people, romanticizing Venus Williams and the way she's been treated throughout her career in an attempt to tear down Serena. It's easy to see through that. Sure, people refer to Venus as "classy", and "composed" and a "good role model" at this point in her career but during much of it she's been targeted with the same vitriol as Serena. Somebody who is a poor sport and too aloof and is standoffish etc. Subjected to being called the "Williams' brothers" by the head of a tennis federation, and racial slurs directed towards her and her father while watching Serena play. Accused of match fixing when she plays against her sister etc.
I don't know what you characterize as "acting like an idiot", if you are attributing that to Serena I disagree from the jump. I don't really know what you're getting at otherwise, I'm talking about the prevalence of racism and sexism that both Williams sisters have undoubtedly faced in their careers. Where you see an excuse, another point of view might see a reason.
I do know how tennis works, I watched that match. I'd say he broke far more than one code violation.
I'm honestly not sure. Serena's final outburst was several minutes long, and it was only counted as one penalty.
As has been explained multiple times, the only reason Williams received such a harsh penalty was because this was her third infraction. Warning > point penalty > game penalty.
EDIT: I mean, maybe what Baghdatis did should count as multiple infractions? When people start smashing multiple racquets in a row it's probably uncharted territory and the umpire acted with discretion and treated it as one sole outburst. Like Williams' argument with the umpire was treated as one sole outburst.
This is such a stupid thing to say. First of all, all sports have a rulebook that they abide by, so whether you like it or not, umpire/referee calls will have an impact on the way the game is managed. This is something every athlete has to deal with, especially when you consider the human element of sports.
It's almost like the people who say this only want a sport in which superstars dominate but with zero rules so as to make the competition as one-sided as possible. Yeah no, there's a reason why we have rules.
Uhh, if something is within the rules, then no shit it's the right call to make. This logic is honestly so stupid.
So now rules are "no reason"?
Jesus fucking Christ.
Thanks for proving how antiquated tennis' rules are. One racket smash should equal one code violation.
So Serena should have got a code violation for saying Ramos was a thief, another for saying he was a liar and a third by saying he will never umpire her again by your reasoning.
Same ref? If not, than you do know that different refs are different. One can be strict with the rules and with another you got some leeway. Everything this ref did was within the rules.
Pretending that rules shouldn't be followed because whatever reason isn't the way to go. If you want the rules to be changed than go after the people responsible for those rules. Carlos Ramos was within the rules of the sport.
The only ones responsible for the penalty are the coach and Serena Williams.
*sigh* I know that. I know you will all disbelieve me because it wouldn't fit your narrative of me being an idiot who has no idea how tennis works but I watch the Grand Slams live any chance I get. I saw the match. I do know the rules. I know it was her third infraction. That wasn't my point. My point was that something that goes far beyond Serena's infractions was treated far differently.
I'd say her verbal outburst was on a different level than repeatedly damaging property.
Osaka has had abuse. I think it was an insta screenshot someone posted where people were being nasty. Don't see how Serena can be blamed for that though, there was not even a suggestion of an issue between the players.
Ramos let Serena go for a while before that third violation. He was called a thief and liar multiple times and Serena told him not to say anything back when he tried talking. "Liar" and "thief" may not seem the most hurtful of words to some but aiming those terms at officials is pretty much a huge no-no in any sport, tennis isn't exactly known for being the most tough and forgiving either.
These are just the examples I saw.
You've posted this same tripe a couple dozen times.
You're basing your assumption on the basis of trollish online comments from people who you can't conceivably prove are or are not Serena Williams fans.
I never said it was the same ref. And "changing the rules" never was the point.
ITT: breaking rackets == verbal accuasations
He didn't just disagree, he used his authority to take something away from her that didn't need to be taken.
It's easy to argue otherwise, he just couldn't have done it. He could have said "I hear you, I promise we will have this conversation after the game" and he could have given a warning he was going to issue a violation.