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Tennis officials shaken by lack of support for chair umpire Carlos Ramos
- Thread starter Squarehard
- Start date
How is that any different to assuming that Ramos might be biased because you can't prove he's not?
This is literally the only time I've posted those images.
And based on the behavior of people in this forum I can rather easily assume those people are indeed Serena fans.
I'm about exhausted from it all. Thank god we have Morrigan fighting the good fight checking fools who keep arguing in bad faith. This thread's gonna go on forever at this rate.
Shoulda woulda coulda. Demand an answer and get it, don't move the subject. Serena broke the rules and cried foul. She lost both games she tried to play. And somehow people on this forum are calling it dogwhistling (not saying you are).
It also shows how few people rallying to the sexism card have no idea what they're talking about in terms of rules and data of the judge in question, so they have to resort to character assassination or the next "what about?"
Then someone else was posting it ad nausea in the other thread.
And assume what you want. It doesn't make you correct. Nice generalizations however.
Except you're making the mistake of assuming Serena's position was rational enough to be taken into consideration during a discussion. She was visibly frustrated and spoke from emotion by insulting Ramos, and then bringing up the fact that she's a mother as if that's of any relevance to the discussion at hand. Not to mention, she refused to even let Ramos talk, which throws your whole "hear someone out" thing down the toilet.
What exactly did he take away?
I've edited my post above for further clarification. As for the bolded, that's debatable and I'd say that's not the case at all. If you're talking about purely immature, inconsiderate, juvenile behaviour then yeah, Baghdatis smashing 4 racquets is pretty bad. But calling into question the integrity and motive of an official, labelling his decision sexist has wider and more uneasy consequences.
Weren't you one of those suggesting anyone criticizing Serena was a racist
I never made that argument. My issue with the whole situation is how the rules are enforced and the variation between umpires in the sport of tennis.
And what men have gotten away with compared to women. Sometimes with the same chair umpire. Referring to the 3rd code violation, of course. Oh and I've argued that player box coaching violations are BS since it is commonplace and every single coach engages in it.
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Do you hear what you're saying? Also Grigor Dimitrov was directly eliminated from the Istanbul Open for breaking three records with no prior violations so you can't use this false equivalence here anyways.
Tennis rules state that you can get a violation for smashing your racket and also one for verbally abusing the umpire. Keep with your whataboutisms though it's quite fun to read.
You're halfway there. I said some of the words people are using to impugn Serena's character are reminiscent of those I've experienced on other corners of the net from people who despise her and have racially denigrated her.
You know, those in the threads on Era who have referred to her as lacking any sort of class, benefiting from double standards, a sore loser, being entitled, silver spooned, a cheat, a doper etc etc etc.
I don't like Serena Williams at all. I'm more of a fan of her sister. I'm far more excited for Osaka because she's the first Japanese Grand Slam Winner. It's one of the reason why I'm so annoyed that people seem to be more interested in Serena Williams outburst over Osaka's amazing play.
Now you see, why is the one that "should put everything into consideration" is always directed towards Ramos, instead of Serena? Why wouldn't people ask her to "put everything into consideration" before she muttered that Ramos is a thief (something, I might add, that was totally unprovoked? That is, if you agree that the previous two warnings are correct)?
And it is provably the worst thing Ramos has been called simply by the reactions. Other players have hurled insults, and the masses weren't calling for Ramos's head.
The only reason for Serena to make an accusation like that (and a clearly unfounded one in this case) is because she knows her legions of hardcore fans will back her up.
The power imbalance here is wholly in her favor. She is incredibly famous, massive social following, very skilled, rich, and good looking. The ref is a random guy (unless you follow tennis) who makes a day rate.
And on top of the ref, she also enabled racial harassment of Osaka, because her words on the court made it clear that she felt the match was stolen rather than legitimately won. Yes, she walked it back later, but her actions directly led to harassment.
That's no different than any other celebrity that publicly calls out others and unleashes their fans.
The difference here is that when Nadal said Ramos wouldn't officiate again, the org didn't take him seriously.
When Serena said Ramos wouldn't officiate again, the org supported her and not the ref.
I can understand why the other refs would say "if he's not good enough for you, then neither are we."
She's not just the most famous woman tennis player, she is THE most famous tennis player right now. Non-tennis fans know the Williams sisters and, if they're older, maybe Kournikova, but she hasn't played in a decade.
Serena is to tennis as Beckham is to soccer. Her words are going to carry more weight because she is a superstar. Her threatening to blacklist a ref (and getting support) is going to be noticed by the ref's union, whereas another random player without that superstar status is going to simply be ignored.
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Ah, the mirror argument in which you accuse your oponent of doing what you're doing so that you can claim superiority if they call you out on your (in this case) whataboutisms because as you accused me first, you clearly know more.
Uh...are you gatekeeping who can and can't call themselves a Serena William's fan now? They are fans of hers simply by saying they are and invoking her name in their unwarranted vitriol against the other player.
Mary Carillo knocks some sense into this whole issue:
https://www.msnbc.com/stephanie-ruh...m-of-a-double-standard-1316703299636?v=railb&
https://www.msnbc.com/stephanie-ruh...m-of-a-double-standard-1316703299636?v=railb&
To show a case of where a man did something and was punished less when compared to Serena's penalties, thereby giving evidence to the idea that there might be an inherent bias towards woman. It's not the same umpire (I tend to not know which umpires watch which games so that will take more time) so it isn't proof of his sexism but rather in a broader sense. Also, reading up on it that incident is unusual anyways because most people would be banned if they did something like that (see the Instanbul open when Grigor Dimitrov broke 3 rackets in a row and was striaght up disqualified without any prior violation).
How is harassing any umpire for literally 10+ minutes which included shouting, pointing, calling him a theif, questioning his integrity and basically saying she will make sure he never officiates one of her matches again not classed as abusive? I mean how much leeway are we supposed to be giving Serena here? Is the umpire just supposed to sit there and take it until she decides to stop?
People are saying he should have given her a warning before the third code violation. I mean he could have but he was well within his rights not to. Serena literally told him to stop talking and then kept her rant going up until the Thief line. It's not an umpires job to baby sit players when they are going off the rails and getting close to repercussions.
Umpiring will always be inconsistent, especially against top players. A lot of them simply don't have the balls to dock big name players and after this fiasco it'll be even less common for them to be punished.
People are saying he should have given her a warning before the third code violation. I mean he could have but he was well within his rights not to. Serena literally told him to stop talking and then kept her rant going up until the Thief line. It's not an umpires job to baby sit players when they are going off the rails and getting close to repercussions.
Umpiring will always be inconsistent, especially against top players. A lot of them simply don't have the balls to dock big name players and after this fiasco it'll be even less common for them to be punished.
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I have not stated any whataboutisms, stop trying to play the victim when you are being called out and not just by me. Shall I also point out where you've moved goalposts in this thread too?
? My original post was asking for evidence for death threats for the umpire. If you are talking about my questioning on Osaka, we got one picture and I asked if there was more. I also got people who didn't think those two pictures weren't enough so...go off I guess?
EDIT: Incidentally I'm still waiting for articles stating that he had received death threats since earlier we had posts that said that we were ignoring the death threats he received because he was a man.
The saddest thing about all of this situation is that no one cares about Naomi Osaka, the actual freaking champion.
It feels like a Rocky movie where Rocky lost but he was the one carried out of the ring and cheered for instead.
It feels like a Rocky movie where Rocky lost but he was the one carried out of the ring and cheered for instead.
You keep claiming that you understand the rules of tennis and then claim that breaking rackets shouldn't be equal to verbal accusations...riiiiiiiiiiight.
No hes not correct.
It's actually Carlos Bernandes and Nadal doesn't have any problems with him now. Nadal asked but those requests were denied and rightly so. Nadal didn't storm to him and say you wont be umpiring again or look the other way when I see you in the Locke room.
https://www.tennisworldusa.org/tenn...is-relationship-with-umpire-carlos-bernardes/
And right now, since we have someone getting thrown under the bus for it, it will have a chilling effect of umpires not willing to give warnings to players abusive towards them because why should they, when even the WTA supported it and people are so quick to judge your integrity and calling you with all sorts of negative terms afterwards.
It's a shame. First time Japanese Grand Slam winner, a mixed-race Japanese athlete, played amazingly, yet she's all but forgotten.
I just showed another example of where racket breaking lead to an immediate disqualification. It IS an unusual case that he managed to break four and only got a point violation. But hey, you have your imaginary proof that I'm a "faker" so nothing I say will convince you otherwise.
It's amazing how much people don't realize the implications it will have. Might as well throw the rulebook out now that umpires will probably make sheltered calls instead of actually calling the violations for what it is. We're gonna see the same bullshit that we see in the NBA and other sports, where superstars get coddled by the umpire while everyone else has to play by the rulebook.
If Serena would just apologize, everyone would stop talking about this controversy.
I agree, it is a total shame that hasn't happened yet.
We are talking about a specific case not about if there is Racism/Sexism in tennis. We are talking about Serena Williams and Carlos Ramos.
Simple question. Did Carlos Ramos act in Racism/Sexism or did he follow the rules?
It really is unfortunate. I'll be watching her matches far more closely from now on. She shocked many with how well she played all tournament and hopefully with how young she is, she can only get even better.
I'm looking at things with a little bit of perspective and realizing that fans of Serena Williams who sound like they actually watch the sport are perhaps a better judge of character and indicator than those vitriolic online trolls who are being referenced from the comment sections on social media.
I know this may blow your mind but a lot of Serena fans, from the largest tennis discussion forums on the internet, are massive fans of Naomi Osaka. My apologies for calling into question comments from people who seem more like shit disturbers or people who claim to be fans of Serena Williams because it is some cool "in" thing to do. See, I do actually follow tennis and don't just casually talk about it when some attention grabbing headline forces people to create threads on tennis-dead Era about it. Amongst Serena fans on tennis discussion forums it was almost universally acknowledged that Osaka's game was marvelous and reminded people of Serena's when she burst onto the tour in the early 2000's. She was given full credit for the game she employed and nobody questioned if she would have won without the controversies.
But it is easier for some to act as if Serena's fans are frothing-at-the-mouth invalids who are incapable of seeing logic or reason. See, every thread on Era referencing Serena Williams.
We already covered this.
Roland Garros. 2017. R16. Rafa vs Bautista Agut.
!!!!! Venus would be personally disgusted by this shit. stop playing up other black women whether it be Sloane Stephens, Madison Keys, or Venus just to tear down other black peoples you don't like. it's tacky.
The answer can be both. No one is arguing the second is false. He found three code violations and applied the standard penalties (which actually isn't standard, btw, just more of an unwritten rule but since these are universally followed they might as well be). How we find the first is to look at matches Ramos coached and see if he is more willing to let violations slide with men compared to woman.
I don't give a rats ass either way. This guy is taking heat however, because Tennis fans want the referees seen and not heard. Every time a referee in any sport gets like this they get busted down. Ever hear of Joey Crawford? Constantly reffed games "within the rules" but clearly had an anger issue as well as a bias against certain players. Famous example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2SYIrUnf5Y
"It's in the rulebook!" You'll argue. Fans love going to games to see refs legislate losses for players.
Er, no they wouldn't. Even if she did apologize that wouldn't result in people suddenly being more interested in Osaka. It's clear that some people here care more about her outburst more than tennis itself.
Dimitrov was not disqualified. In the third set he broke two rackets separately and then deliberately broke a third at 0-5 down earning him a game penalty.
He gave her a game penalty.
That's also assuming she wasn't rational enough to have a conversation, I heard the audio and saw clips, I saw how exasperated and hurt she was, I don't think she was beyond reason. Men use that excuse or characterization all the time on women who are just showing emotion.
Because it's his job to make sure that potentially the biggest match of these two individuals lives goes smoothly and is called as clean as it can possibly be.
He did the right thing. Shameful that people are throwing him under the bus and even more shameful that Serena tried to bully her way around this trying to spin eveything.
And he did that by following the rules.
Can you really call a match 'clean' if rules are disregarded just because? How is that fair to the person at the other side of the net?
I'm not suggesting that all, or even most, of her fans are acting like that. Just that you can't handwave away "those arent her fans" because you dont like what they are saying.
So did he or is there any evidence that is going that way? If he did i'm going to change my stance but nothing what i saw seemed to point in that direction.
I don't know. I know how to do it but I assume that's being done right now. I'm not going to do that right now (I'm a bit busy with work and school). We probably will have more definite evidence by later this week at the latest.
So everything the umpire did was 100% by the book and people are complaining about this? I mean when are sports officials going to get a break? They get shit wrong, they get ridiculed. Now they get shit right and get ridiculed. No one is special, regardless of who they are, and there are rules for a reason. The only person that should be apologizing is Williams to Osaka for robbing her of her moment. You got your ass beat...it happens.
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I don't know that her momentary display of emotion was something that was going to effect the game, I don't think it would more than a game penalty.