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Terminator: Dark Fate |OT| (Spoilers) No fate but what Jim & Tim make

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OP
VorpalNonsense
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
I always wondered about how Skynet made the first robots. Up until T3 said humans made the prototypes shortly before Judgment Day (and I guess now that film no longer exists in this continuity) I kind of imagined messages popping up on screens in factories as the first nukes were flying saying ‘Hi, I’m the AI launching nukes, build me the stuff in these instructions or this location’s next’.

I mean we know from way back in T1 that Skynet ran work/extermination camps.
It's a valid theory that could certainly be possible. But it's never been answered on screen, and it's not a question that anybody has ever needed answering, because we just roll with it instead of complaining on messageboards about it not being explained. It's cool. An example of a question that doesn't need an answer because the best answer has always been "because movie." It's not important to the story they want to tell how that happened, just that it happened.

Like complaining about why Skynet would send Carl to 1998 instead of 1984 while simultaneously giving T2 a pass for sending the 1000 to 1995 instead, even though it's the same thing. Because movie. It happened.
 
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Farmboy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
342
I couldn’t help but wonder what the Terminators that Carl texted Sarah about would do if Sarah didn’t destroy them. Logically, wouldn’t they evolve into Carl-like family men after discovering John was already dead (and after having a brief existential crisis)? If so, why destroy them ‘for John’?
 
Oct 26, 2017
751
It's a valid theory that could certainly be possible. But it's never been answered on screen, and it's not a question that anybody has ever needed answering, because we just roll with it instead of complaining on messageboards about it not being explained. An example of a question that doesn't need an answer because the best answer is "because movie." It's not important to the story they want to tell how that happened, just that it happened.

Like complaining about why Skynet would send Carl to 1998 instead of 1984 while simultaneously giving T2 a pass for sending the 1000 to 1995 instead even though it's the same thing. Because movie. It happened.
Oh yeah I absolutely agree, that was just my random musings from way back, I’m not rage typing this stuff into the comments section of some YouTube critic’s takedown video.
 

DiipuSurotu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,619
France
I couldn’t help but wonder what the Terminators that Carl texted Sarah about would do if Sarah didn’t destroy them. Logically, wouldn’t they evolve into Carl-like family men after discovering John was already dead (and after having a brief existential crisis)? If so, why destroy them ‘for John’?
I thought Carl grew self-aware because of he felt guilty for killing John
 
OP
OP
VorpalNonsense
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
I couldn’t help but wonder what the Terminators that Carl texted Sarah about would do if Sarah didn’t destroy them. Logically, wouldn’t they evolve into Carl-like family men after discovering John was already dead and having a brief existential crisis? If so, why destroy them ‘for John’?
Carl said he did it to give Sarah purpose, not to prevent anything in particular. So it was purely for Sarah's catharsis I guess.

Left alone I suppose they too would have gained minds of their own. But who knows how they would have turned out? Maybe they could have shaped up like Carl. Maybe they'd become serial killers instead. Like anyone else, I suppose. They'd find a purpose, but it might not end up being the same purpose as Carl. They wouldn't have had the formative experience that Carl had with John and the family.
 

dennett316

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,230
Blackpool, UK
I couldn’t help but wonder what the Terminators that Carl texted Sarah about would do if Sarah didn’t destroy them. Logically, wouldn’t they evolve into Carl-like family men after discovering John was already dead (and after having a brief existential crisis)? If so, why destroy them ‘for John’?
Carl developed a conscience after killing his target, those other Terminators would have no such trigger. They could become like Carl, or something altogether worse.
 

Farmboy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
342
Yeah, the whole Carl growing a conscience thing seems pretty convoluted. Ditto al the Terminators sent back that Sarah killed. Ditto Legion being super-similar to Skynet (including similar killer robot designs, similar time-displacement tech and the exact same send-a-Terminator-back-in-time plan) but isn’t really SkyNet. Honestly I think I preferred T3’s “yeah same SkyNet just kind of delayed” take, as silly as it was.
 

fairyd

Member
Oct 25, 2017
948
Carl developed a conscience after killing his target, those other Terminators would have no such trigger. They could become like Carl, or something altogether worse.
Maybe those terminators were sent back in time with the intention of being upstanding citizens. After Carl completed his mission the robots saw that living a good life was ideal. But they couldn't since they were in a post apocalyptic society. So they needed to send back robots to the past to live a normal life.
 

Sulik2

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,083
Yeah, the whole Carl growing a conscience thing seems pretty convoluted. Ditto al the Terminators sent back that Sarah killed. Ditto Legion being super-similar to Skynet (including similar killer robot designs, similar time-displacement tech and the exact same send-a-Terminator-back-in-time plan) but isn’t really SkyNet. Honestly I think I preferred T3’s “yeah same SkyNet just kind of delayed” take, as silly as it was.
Pretty easy to explain this and if they get a sequel I bet they will. Cyberdine was destroyed, but its unlikely all their records about the terminator and the chip were completely destroyed, even though the project was irreparably destroyed. Hell there would have been all kinds of security footage of the terminators throughout time as well, even the later ones Sarah killed. Legion had full access to all of human knowledge, probably based his designs on the killer robots he found in records. Keeps the idea of the time travel causing a causal loop that way too.
 

fundogmo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
433
Yeah, the whole Carl growing a conscience thing seems pretty convoluted. Ditto al the Terminators sent back that Sarah killed. Ditto Legion being super-similar to Skynet (including similar killer robot designs, similar time-displacement tech and the exact same send-a-Terminator-back-in-time plan) but isn’t really SkyNet. Honestly I think I preferred T3’s “yeah same SkyNet just kind of delayed” take, as silly as it was.
Kojima would be proud of the audacity of these retcons, but I'm willing to accept them, since a great bulk of the modern media I consume has been pretty fast and loose with the idea of a singular "canon" lately.

Carl growing a conscience was pretty heavily seeded by the T-800 in T2, and kind of a nice touch that this weapon created to infiltrate humans sort of turns into a empathetic facsimile of a human.

Legion as Skynet I feel represents an inevitability of oppositional AI, but the theme of the films is always about rewriting the future and staying ahead of that disaster.

Definitely convoluted, and there's the obvious meta answer of 'why' these things were introduced, but I feel like it's less egregious than other decisions in the franchise that led to complete narrative dead ends.
 

Farmboy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
342
Pretty easy to explain this and if they get a sequel I bet they will. Cyberdine was destroyed, but its unlikely all their records about the terminator and the chip were completely destroyed, even though the project was irreparably destroyed. Hell there would have been all kinds of security footage of the terminators throughout time as well, even the later ones Sarah killed. Legion had full access to all of human knowledge, probably based his designs on the killer robots he found in records. Keeps the idea of the time travel causing a causal loop that way too.
I mean, that was sorta kinda my head cannon while watching it, but it would have been nice if they’d at least included a nod in that direction. Also, just call it SkyNet again, jeez.
 

cj_iwakura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,682
Coral Springs, FL
I liked it enough, it's about on par with 3, nowhere near 1 & 2. I liked Linda and Arnold in it, new leads and the Rev9 were cool.

The bad?
Killing John, of course, and not even using Edward Furlong, having to kill the young one was even stupider. Stupid de-aging CG.

The 'new' Dark Future is pale compared to T1 or even 2's. Where's the darkness? The plasma weapons? Why is everyone using machine guns!? It has no bite.


The intro of the terminators rising out of the water was really cool, and more like what I expected, but that was it.

They really should go back to basics, stop making super unkillable terminators that keep one-upping the last.


I enjoyed the ending, though. Nice T1 call back. I'll be sad if it ends here, but it's a nice send off.
 

Violence Jack

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,707
After watching quite a few of the online reviews, there certainly seems to be a growing hatred for Dani being the new version of John Connor. I didn't like nor care that much about Dani either, but that was due to her bad acting and less about her playing the savior of the future role.
 
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VorpalNonsense
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
Oh yeah I absolutely agree, that was just my random musings from way back, I’m not rage typing this stuff into the comments section of some YouTube critic’s takedown video.
I've had similar musings about the human factor in Skynet's rise to authority.
In the past I've thought that a neat idea for a hard horror terminator sequel might be pre-judgmentday Skynet as an ongoing hidden presence in preparation, blackmailing various key people into shit against their will in a Saw-esque sort of way, as whatever lone hero tries to uncover/expose it while being watched from every phone and street camera. Lots of paranoia. Going up against modern technology and humans for most of the movie. Arnold as a disobedient human engineer who ends up dissected for experimentation (obvious foreshadowing of the T800). Half his face gone but this time there's no metal behind it.
The hero eventually being trapped somewhere and chased in the third act by an ugly metal monstrosity cobbled together by Skynet's involuntary slaves. Maybe a bit Frankenstein's monster, with mismatched bits of machinery and taken flesh or bone forming Skynet's first "terminator." Not remotely the slick familiar 800 model.
Ends with that local operation getting halted by the hero, but with the implication that there is more of this still going on out there in the world. No man for the authorities to pin this nightmare on, because it is no man.

Something like Seven + Saw + Terminator.
But that's probably going in way too hard for this series. Just old shit that rolls around in my head from time to time, never fully formed.
 

RoninRay

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,228
Outside of a low budget horror movie I don't see this franchise having anything left. Somebody on Reddit posted doing a movie where the machines send back a robot to protect someone and the humans send someone back to kill said person. Even that I don't think would work.
 

LosDaddie

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,622
Longwood, FL
Watched it last night with a friend on the Dolby screen at AMC.

not a terrible movie, but…. I really don’t see how this franchise continues. The next movie would have to be… The start of the war? The budget for the movie would be high, and I highly doubt box office sales would be enough to make a profit.

entertaining movie, though. I’ll watch it again as a rental
 

TheRealCanadianBros

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
915
Because the last movie in the (canon) series had Bob, and John was already taken.
I guess he might have gone with Joe or Ed instead. Larry?
It's just another very generic working class name for a man that literally came off a production line. The sort of name an infiltration robot might choose with no regard for taste.


I was kinda expecting the same thing. If a Carl can arrive from that previous future, so could a middle aged General John Connor.



1. Why was the T1000 sent to 95 instead of 84 to team up with the 800? Whoops, scattershot is already a thing in T1 & T2... but apparently when they do it it's good and when DF does it, it's bad writing. It's the same thing. It's a fun writer's conceit that allows the movie to exist. T2 wouldn't exist without it.
2. All the Roombas in the world can't build a factory no matter how hard they try. A production line is hardly useful outside of what it is designed to build and is hand supplied with materials from outside locations. Not even a 3D printer can build a fully functioning robot in one go, and those hardly even existed in 1997. Skynet had no hands. It's just an off the cuff example of another "plot hole" that's better left ignored like the others you brought up. Terminator is full of them.
3. How did the 1000 get through then? (Or put the nuke inside an 800, and it will walk itself to the target!)
4. How did the 1000 get through then? (Or put the chemicals inside a flesh sack and pop it!)
5. They clearly are getting passes for the same sins you're damning DF for.
Repentance: That always has been a stupid idea that makes no sense within the narrative and is clearly just a concept he rolled around in his head for a while and never brought to fruition for a reason.

They're valid points if you're running the CinemaSins channel but pretending like they apply only to DF and not to T1 & T2 as well is obviously motivated. If you wanna criticize the whole series go ahead but don't pretend like this shit only applies to Dark Fate. Dark Fate has plenty of flaws of its own that make it lesser than T1&T2 if you wanna pick on it specifically, but these aint it.
10/10
 
Oct 28, 2017
16,723
Outside of a low budget horror movie I don't see this franchise having anything left. Somebody on Reddit posted doing a movie where the machines send back a robot to protect someone and the humans send someone back to kill said person. Even that I don't think would work.
What does that change? I dont think that person thought it out.
 

TheRealCanadianBros

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
915
That sounds pretty close to the original T3 script.

"My favorite colour is GREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN"

xD
 
Feb 10, 2018
15,637
Outside of a low budget horror movie I don't see this franchise having anything left. Somebody on Reddit posted doing a movie where the machines send back a robot to protect someone and the humans send someone back to kill said person. Even that I don't think would work.
It just needs some better talent behind it, old franchises can have great modern sequels like the great blade runner 2049, the recent star Wars and trek movies.

The last 4 terminator movies have not been treated well, some are better then others but none are anywhere close to the first 2, it very disappointing.

With A.I being a more popular topic in recent years the terminator franchise could go in some really interesting directions.
 
Oct 27, 2017
576
That's not a very good fan trailer but it would have been awesome if audiences in 1991 didn't know that Arnie was going to be a good guy. But because Arnie was such a huge star at the time I'm guessing the studio felt like they had to make it clear that Arnie was the hero.
I doubt that. Cameron made sure it was totally explicit a few minutes into the movie with the use of a comedy song like Bad to the Bone.
 

CreepingFear

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,240
I saw it on Monday. It was the best of the sequels after 2, but that's not saying that much. I just kind of felt numb. I think they should have cut the future scene of her being the new John Connor. I wasn't buying it. They put dirt on her face, but she looked like a 20 year old petite girl with braided hair. No one laughed at the scene in my theater, but if they did, I wouldn't have blamed them.
 
Feb 10, 2018
15,637
Because the last movie in the (canon) series had Bob, and John was already taken.
I guess he might have gone with Joe or Ed instead. Larry?
It's just another very generic working class name for a man that literally came off a production line. The sort of name an infiltration robot might choose with no regard for taste.


I was kinda expecting the same thing. If a Carl can arrive from that previous future, so could a middle aged General John Connor.



1. Why was the T1000 sent to 95 instead of 84 to team up with the 800? Whoops, scattershot is already a thing in T1 & T2... but apparently when they do it it's good and when DF does it, it's bad writing. It's the same thing. It's a fun writer's conceit that allows the movie to exist. T2 wouldn't exist without it.
2. All the Roombas in the world can't build a factory no matter how hard they try. A production line is hardly useful outside of what it is designed to build and is hand supplied with materials from outside locations. Not even a 3D printer can build a fully functioning robot in one go, and those hardly even existed in 1997. Skynet had no hands. It's just an off the cuff example of another "plot hole" that's better left ignored like the others you brought up. Terminator is full of them.
3. How did the 1000 get through then? (Or put the nuke inside an 800, and it will walk itself to the target!)
4. How did the 1000 get through then? (Or put the chemicals inside a flesh sack and pop it!)
5. They clearly are getting passes for the same sins you're damning DF for.
Repentance: That always has been a stupid idea that makes no sense within the narrative and is clearly just a concept he rolled around in his head for a while and never brought to fruition for a reason.

They're valid points if you're running the CinemaSins channel but pretending like they apply only to DF and not to T1 & T2 as well is obviously motivated. If you wanna criticize the whole series go ahead but don't pretend like this shit only applies to Dark Fate. Dark Fate has plenty of flaws of its own that make it lesser than T1&T2 if you wanna pick on it specifically, but these aint it.
While roombas as can't build stuff, a super A.I could manipulate humans to do so, it would be harder after nuclear war though?

It would make the most sense for skynet to secure the ability to navigate and build things on earth before nuking everywhere.

When talking about a super A.I the plot can go many places because they can invent new things.
From what people today say about super general A.I the intelligence divide between it and humans is like the difference between a mouse and Einstein x10000.

Like an DAY after a general AI was activated, the general AI would have inventions like a modern day human showing a caveman a tesla, an f35 jet, a super heavy rocket, an iPhone, an oculus quest, a gun, a microwave, a flashlight etc
 
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Hercule

Member
Jun 20, 2018
1,922
I think a stand one Carl movie would be really fun. Like he said in the movie, he's extremely funny.
 

DiipuSurotu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,619
France
Carl doesn't actually tell Sarah about all the other T-800s, because he knows some of them become good. One of them became John Kimble from Kindergarten Cop. Another became Howard Langston from Jingle All The Way.
 

Hercule

Member
Jun 20, 2018
1,922
It's pretty clear the T800 is severely outclassed now, especially when the bad robot is a 2 in 1. Like a biplane going up against a F22 Raptor.
Oh, that's not really what I meant.

I want a full on what if comedy. Let Arnold kill both John and Sarah at the start of the movie and become Karl. No other Terminators or world ending dangers.

While Arnold is a legendary action star he can be really funny. Combine that with a good director like the one from Dark Fate and you have a great comedy.

No other actor could have pulled Kindergarten cop off the way Arnold did
 

SENPAIatLARGE

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,267
At this point make a film that canonizes EVERYTHING. Make a plot about how the constant time travel abuse by both sides is literally ripping a hole in space and time. All resistances across all times, fighting every variation of Skynet/Legion across time. Terminator: Final Wars
 

cj_iwakura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,682
Coral Springs, FL
Bring back plasma weapons, for god sakes. Why do all modern depictions of the future remove lasers? Too '80s'?


Also, did anyone get those mini posters? The Sarah "NO FATE" one is pretty cool.
 
Oct 26, 2017
751
Bring back plasma weapons, for god sakes. Why do all modern depictions of the future remove lasers? Too '80s'?
The opening scene with the terminators coming out of the water did have plasma weapons firing back, the scene later in the film seemed to be at the very start of the resistance with people using whatever weapons they can get their hands on.

I’m guessing the weapons we see in T1 and T2’s future scenes were stolen from Skynet far enough into the war that Skynet was actually manufacturing weapons suitable for something roughly human shaped to use. That or the resistance has a fantastic R&D department.
 

captainzombie

Member
Nov 29, 2017
238
I thought it was a fairly decent film, way better than what happened with Genisys and how they handled John Connor. If anything, they should of kept T3: Rise of the Machines as a part of the continuity. I never thought that Salvation was that bad of a movie. I don't understand as to why this is doing so bad though at the box office considering that we get the return of Linda Hamilton and at least a final appearance from Arnold as the T-800/Carl, but as we know he can come back even in the future.

I would have preferred that John Connor would have survived even if they didn't want to have the character in the movie, it could of worked where Dani is his wife in the future and the Rev9 was coming to kill her. Then at that point my idea of continuing off of T3 would not of worked too since Claire Danes is not Hispanic if they were going for the whole Mexico backdrop as they did in this film.

I don't think they will ever come close to T1 and T2, but if we do get another film and they continue from Dark Fate they really need to come up with something new. We keep having Terminator after Terminator being sent back in time trying to kill Sarah, John (twice), Kate Dani, etc. The start of the war would actually be cool, and the start of this film when the terminators were coming out of the water was quite impressive.
 

_Karooo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,623
Movie sucked. I wasn't even paying attention. Like there was no attachment to any of the characters.

That Christian Bale's Terminator movie was actually decent.
 
Nov 8, 2017
4,384
It was "ok", but several aspects of the series just feel increasingly stale when they recycle it. Like how many more times do I want to watch the exact same action scene where they fire guns at the advanced prototype terminator, then have a 3 second reaction shot of it healing up before it keeps moving? How many times are we going to have a T800 Arnold model be on the good guy team? Even having Old Man Terminator was an idea recycled from Terminator 5. The Liquid Metal thing was cool in T2. The hybrid model in T3 was... ok. The T5 nanomachine john connor was bad, and now we have yet another "pretty much just the liquid metal guy again but with another slight twist" so it's like yeah people, we get it, we also remember T2.

A lot of the dialogue felt clunky, and I'm not sure if that's because it was the script, the direction or the acting. A lot of the character moments also felt jarring, like they might have made sense in an earlier draft but as they shipped it felt like it didn't seem right with the events and characters that were depicted on screen. Like the moment where the Mackenzienator wakes up on the bed and immediately is all up in Linda Hamilton's grill, as if she didn't just witness her clearly being on the same team and saving their asses from the evil terminator. Or later on you have the attempt at position Danielle-as-resistence-leader as a large twist, which the film really doesn't do a good job misleading you on, nor does it feel authentic to Sarah Connor's character for her to have lines of dialogue to the effect of "They don't want you, they want your womb, because you'll give birth to a man!"

(Actually, thinking about it now, characters being hyperhostile to each other all the time was one of the things that was kind of just draining to watch.)

It's not all bad, but nothing about this is necessary. The way the timeline keeps changing the details but remaining basically the same with the apocalypse dates moving back further and further each time really feels almost like a metacomentary on the franchise as a whole. The people who keep greenlighting these things are desparately trying to tweak the formula slightly to figure out what they can do to make it work this time, but basically it has the same outcome every time.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,714
got talked into seeing it with my brother who even bought the snacks..
Pretty much exactly what I expected from the trailer,
movie was a total loss from the John Connor scene onwards.

Only good thing I got from it was more respect for Terminator 3, Salvation and TSCC.
 

Mr. Sam

Member
Oct 26, 2017
629
Honestly loved it, thought it was fantastic other than maybe an over-reliance on rubbery CG action later on. The Carl reveal in particular I thought was spectacular.
 

Cecil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,403
I saw last night, and my reaction was: "Fairly entertaining, but was this all they could come up with?"

I didn't go in with massive expectations, but I had hoped that James Cameron would have hade some original ideas for it, and would have included something memorable, more then that John Connor twist, and a pretty decent performance from Linda Hamilton.

I mean, Skynet is gone, didn't happen, but then there's Legion instead, that is never presented as anything more then a rebranded Skynet, that for some reason builds murder robots that looks almost identical to what Skynet did? That also sends robots back in time to prevent a future from happening?

I can absolutely see the reasons, from a marketing perspective, to continue in the same patterns and include what the audience expects.

But it's boring. Safe and boring.

T2 is a milestone, that pushed the action genre forward, and that hade memorable characters, scenes and sountrack. This movie had none of that IMHO.

If they had just made another Terminator movie, then this would have been exactly what I expected. But I really thought that James Cameron, Linda Hamilton and the decision to ignore Terminator 3-5 would mean something more then just an ok action movie.