Tesla Is Still In Hell With Model 3 Production

Deleted member 8561 · Jul 13, 2018

The irony of having self described socialists and communists show off and boast about GM EV's, a company who has destroyed an entire city and surrounding communities in the name of the all mighty dollar, just to stick it to Musk, is so palpable I can taste it through my computer screen.

SlothmanAllen · Jul 13, 2018

It feels like Musk is going off the rails. He is tweeting constantly about random crap. I think the pressure of Tesla has gotten to him.

House_Of_Lightning · Jul 13, 2018

TheLostBigBoss said:
The irony of having self described socialists and communists show off and boast about GM EV's, a company who has destroyed an entire city and surrounding communities in the name of the all mighty dollar, just to stick it to Musk, is so palpable I can taste it through my computer screen.

"My capitalism is more ethical than yours".

X1 Two · Jul 13, 2018

Mcfrank said:
Do all of the people in this thread who shit on Musk for criticizing the UAW think that all of the other auto companies are fully union?

I think you are very wrong if you believe otherwise.

Nastrodamous · Jul 13, 2018

House_Of_Lightning said:
And yet their quality control issues are infamous and their overall vehicle quality and service quality is generally mid tier and bad, respectively. hmmmm.jpg

Tesla fans are generally the last people you should go to for opinions on Tesla.

They are? BMW, Chevy, and Nissan have high quality EVs available for purchase. Other manufacturers are about to go all in on EVs. There's been a lack of demand for EVs and the price point has been too high for the tech to really be ubiquitous up until recent time. Tesla were niche products that are popular because they're a lifestyle brand and identity.

People who can afford 100k+ cars and bought Tesla because they're an EV are gonna go back to Porsche, Audi, and Maserati once they release their dedicated EVs. Which is within the next year.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/chevrolet-bolt-ev-2017-car-of-the-year/

this article is from 2016

Deleted member 8561 · Jul 13, 2018

House_Of_Lightning said:
"My capitalism is more ethical than yours".

I would say it's more petty and transparent that personal vendettas based on a person's political/economic leanings trump moral and political consistency.

X1 Two · Jul 13, 2018

Sankt Ra said:
Man, some of the guys here just have to be astroturfing for Tesla. Defending people working in literally shit. Lol.

The truth is even worse: They are not even getting paid for it, they believe it.

House_Of_Lightning · Jul 13, 2018

Nastrodamous said:
this article is from 2016

What has happened to the Bolt EV in two years to make it go from a good car to not a good car?

Goldtones · Jul 13, 2018

House_Of_Lightning said:
There's nothing manufacturers can do about lack of demand. The Bolt EV is still for sale, so I dunno what you even mean by that.

High demand for 100k EVs that require hours to fully recharge and additional appliances in your home simply doesn't exist. Companies who's wheelhouse is developing and selling cars that cost 19 - 30K aren't gonna chase a demographic that isn't theirs. Now that EV tech is cost competitive they're looking towards it.

Chevy has been making electric vehicles for decades, BTW.

They are only selling 1500 a month compared to Tesla aiming for 5000 a week right now, their production has actually decrease from over 2000 a month intially, they only made it available in hand full of states, people who want one are having trouble buying one, there is obviously enough demand to support higher production.

Woody · Jul 13, 2018

These threads are just sad now, thanks OP. Let's root for the auto industry that lobbied for sprawling shit-cities with no mass transport. Surely it's the upstart experiencing production problems that's the problem. FU

xbhaskarx · Jul 13, 2018

Woody said:
These threads are just sad now, thanks OP. Let's root for the auto industry that lobbied for sprawling shit-cities with no mass transport. Surely it's the upstart experiencing production problems that's the problem. FU

They didn't just lobby for no mass transportation, they actually destroyed it!

Gatti-man · Jul 13, 2018

Goldtones said:
They are only selling 1500 a month compared to Tesla aiming for 5000 a week right now, their production has actually decrease from over 2000 a month intially, they only made it available in hand full of states, people who want one are having trouble buying one, there is obviously enough demand to support higher production.

There is pent up pre order demand. Not fluid new demand. When the tax breaks cease and the preorders are filled then you will know what the real demand is and I'd bet you it's not nearly as much as you think.

When tax breaks went away in other countries demand for Tesla's fell off a cliff immediately.

Woody said:
These threads are just sad now, thanks OP. Let's root for the auto industry that lobbied for sprawling shit-cities with no mass transport. Surely it's the upstart experiencing production problems that's the problem. FU

Why not just process reality as opposed to rooting for companies?

dr.rocktopus · Jul 13, 2018

Nastrodamous said:
this article is from 2016

You set yourself up here for the 2018 winner, which was not a Tesla (Alfa Romeo Giulia).

I think on the propulsion side Tesla absolutely showed the automotive world that you need to fully commit to the battery, motors, and design around the altar of distance of you want to do a pure EV. And not make people feel like they are driving penalty boxes like the Leaf or the i-MiEV. Range anxiety can be partially alleviated with greater range, even if it doesn't match ICE range. You need to show people the practical usage case which the Model S commited to fully; it's a good luxury car that meets the expectations of a good luxury car and happens to be an EV. There was a different line of thinking there and I think Elon deserves that credit, and Tesla deserves the reputation of being forward thinking in that regard. Remember, the second gen Prius was huge for being that car that showed the practicality of hybrids. No one was buying Honda Insights or first gen Prius' because the benefit wasn't large enough and the compromises too large.

That being said, call a spade a spade. Maybe it's my background but the timetable he was originally aiming for was clearly too agressive. If cars could be developed and manufactured faster they absolutely would be. Why would these companies pay for dead time? When I worked in part manufacturing for a T1 to Toyota we were looking at things to shave off fractions of a second because it compounds. People actually believe this is some large deep state consipracy to fuck over Elon? He's doing it to himself in ignoring years and years of other manufacturer's experience.

Woody · Jul 13, 2018

Gatti-man said:
Why not just process reality as opposed to rooting for companies?

Reality is a team sport these days.

Deleted member 3335 · Jul 13, 2018

Tesla's problem is that the battery technology isn't there to produce electric cars in a large scale and especially economically.

All the traditional companies have the luxery of gradually move to the EV market based on the technological reality and political will in the various countries.

Maybe Tesla will survive the next years and establish themselves as luxery brand or not.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ill-catch-up-with-tesla-in-coming-years-study

It's just Clark · Jul 13, 2018

Argyle said:
Well, here's the thing.

Tesla sells directly to customers, there are no dealerships. So "delivered" means delivered to customers...that is, sold. In transit means exactly that - those are cars that are on trains and car carriers on their way to their new owners, but haven't been officially delivered yet. Since 11K cars are in transit as of the end of last month, it's reasonable to assume they will be delivered this quarter and probably this month.

See the fine print in their official statement:

As for numbers outside the NA market - there have been 0 Model 3s sold outside of North America. Tesla only started selling cars in Canada around May of this year, so the 2Q numbers are combined US + Canada numbers but the 1Q numbers are US only numbers. I don't think Tesla will start selling Model 3s outside NA until 2019.

I don't think it really matters what GoodCar or CleanTechnica say because ultimately...these are the official numbers. Those sites attempt to estimate sales in-between Tesla's quarterly reports but they are just that, estimates. Just look at the GoodCar numbers, they don't pass the sniff test at all. Exactly 5,000 Model 3s as of June? Exactly 1,000 cars sold in June? At least some of the other sites will correct their data once real numbers come out, I don't know why GoodCar doesn't seem to do this.

Honestly I don't know if their other numbers for other manufacturers are accurate, I mean, I would hope they get their numbers from GM. But they are definitely inaccurate for Tesla.

Also GM and Tesla "entered the arena" around the same time, as far as tax credits go. I'm not even sure the early Tesla Roadsters count because the tax credit didn't exist at that point (it looks like it started in 2010: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxevb.shtml). I remember hearing that that law that started the tax credit was written to make sure that the at-the-time new Chevy Volt qualified for the largest credit (it's based on battery size).

Anyway, the Volt started shipping in late 2010, and the Model S in mid 2012. Even with GM's head start and lower prices, Tesla still beat them to 200K.

Regardless of when the tax credits came into law, you have to acknowledge that GM entered the EV game later than Tesla. The fact that Tesla existed in the EV space before GM means they had better name/product recognition with EV enthusiast by the time the tax credits came into law. The Volt and the Model S also are not direct competitors with one being a compact and the other a mid size. The lower price point of the Volt isn't really a factor as, elsewhere in the industry, midsize family sedans always outsell their cheaper, compact counterpart. Why GM has yet to produce a larger Voltech/EV is beyond me.

And while Tesla has officially hit the 200K mark, as of June, GM isn't that far behind with a total of 184,000 qualifying vehicles sold, with Nissan a distant 3rd with 121,000.

Also, I said Tesla could be using an unexpected definition for delivered or "in transit to customers". I don't know how Tesla defines those terms and neither do you. I'm not doubting their PR, I'm doubting the numbers someone quoted from CleanTechnica and Tesla's refusal to report their sales (not production) numbers in the same manner as everyone one else in the industry (ex GM which recently began reporting sales numbers quarterly).

House_Of_Lightning · Jul 13, 2018

It's just Clark said:
GM entered the EV game later than Tesla

GM has been making electric vehicles for decades.

They had a mass produced model in the 90s and ended up walking away because the tech and demand simply wasn't there.

Deleted member 10612 · Jul 13, 2018

BMW also had a EV in the 90s (EV1 / 2), but at the time apparently batteries had to be heated, so their prototype burned down - and they stopped that endeavor :)

Mcfrank · Jul 13, 2018

X1 Two said:
I think you are very wrong if you believe otherwise.

so all of those auto manufacturing plants that have been built in the south over the last 15 years are unionized? I'd love to see some verification of that.

Argyle · Jul 13, 2018

House_Of_Lightning said:
Then don't buy one. You have better and cheaper EV/PHEV options right now. Tesla is just a lifestyle badge.

[citation needed]

Sankt Ra said:
Nio ES8?

LOL a what now? I'm sure it's nice but I'm not moving to China to buy one. Can YOU buy one?

It's just Clark said:
Regardless of when the tax credits came into law, you have to acknowledge that GM entered the EV game later than Tesla. The fact that Tesla existed in the EV space before GM means they had better name/product recognition with EV enthusiast by the time the tax credits came into law. The Volt and the Model S also are not direct competitors with one being a compact and the other a mid size. The lower price point of the Volt isn't really a factor as, elsewhere in the industry, midsize family sedans always outsell their cheaper, compact counterpart. Why GM has yet to produce a larger Voltech/EV is beyond me.

Yo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

As soon as W. Bush was president they closed up shop and crushed all the cars (as they were leased and they refused to let anyone buy them).

Do you know what happened after that? GM had the exclusive patent rights to the large-format NiMH batteries, which they sold to Texaco, which was later acquired by Chevron. After that, they pretty much just refused to sell anyone batteries or license the patents out so that other people could make batteries. Aside from NiMH the only viable batteries were lead-acid (heavy and not enough energy density) and lithium (which at the time were unproven and expensive).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batteries

The patents are finally expired now, but lithium has come into its own anyway. Still, mission accomplished, no electric cars for decades. Don't get me wrong, I have considered GM EVs for purchase, but why anyone would root for them given their history is a bit perplexing to me.

It's just Clark said:
And while Tesla has officially hit the 200K mark, as of June, GM isn't that far behind with a total of 184,000 qualifying vehicles sold, with Nissan a distant 3rd with 121,000.

Sure, but I mean this gap is just going to get wider? Normally they sell like 2000ish Bolts a month, that's what, less than a week's production for Tesla despite the difficulties ramping up? I think they are going to boost production by 20% of the Bolt at the end of the year but I don't see it even remotely closing the gap.

It's just Clark said:
Also, I said Tesla could be using an unexpected definition for delivered or "in transit to customers". I don't know how Tesla defines those terms and neither do you. I'm not doubting their PR, I'm doubting the numbers someone quoted from CleanTechnica and Tesla's refusal to report their sales (not production) numbers in the same manner as everyone one else in the industry (ex GM which recently began reporting sales numbers quarterly).

Uh, speak for yourself? I mean, I quoted Tesla's definition in my last post. Did you miss it? Let's try again.

Our delivery count should be viewed as slightly conservative, as we only count a car as delivered if it is transferred to the customer and all paperwork is correct. Final numbers could vary by up to 0.5%.

http://ir.tesla.com/news-releases/n...sla-q2-2018-vehicle-production-and-deliveries (scroll down, past the asterisks)

"delivered" = sold to a customer. I don't know how much clearer that needs to be?

What you SHOULD be asking is where GoodCar gets their data. Their about page claims they get it from manufacturers so it is curious why they don't use the numbers provided by Tesla.

Deleted member 10612 · Jul 13, 2018

Argyle I can't buy an Tesla M3 now either in my location ;)

Michael F. Assbender · Jul 13, 2018

Unknown Soldier said:
As Tesla gets closer and closer to long-term profitability, the attacks on the company become more desperate. There's a lot of money and power riding on preserving the existing petroleum-based world order and a lot of powerful people who would give anything to put the electric car genie back in the bottle even though humanity's existence is threatened by global warming.

God I hope this is parody.

Kenstar · Jul 13, 2018

House_Of_Lightning said:
"My capitalism is more ethical than yours".

Dingens · Jul 13, 2018

Mcfrank said:
[...]
I am very pro union and it is something I disagree with Musk on. But the way era has made it into a single issue with which to judge him on (while presumably owning all sorts of things made in China and while driving a car that probably was not built in a union plant) is a bit baffling to me.

Well... Tesla chose to sell their product based on the idea of saving the planet and their CEO claims to be a true socialist... You really don't see why people might hold them to higher standards?

disclaimer: I indeed do not own a car built by a unionized plant, because I sold it years ago. See, I'm actually saving the planet - by using public transport like 90% of the time, and use car sharing for the other 10% when absolutely necessary. Obviously those are cars from European plants, therefore it is save to assume they were protected not only by European workers rights, but also by unions. Oh and guess what... some of the cars on offer are even EVs! Nissans, Hyundai, BMW... no Teslas though.

Mezentine · Jul 13, 2018

I'm kind of annoyed that people are making this out to be exclusively about unionization. That's incredibly important, but there are non-union factories without conditions like this. This is incompetent

X1 Two · Jul 13, 2018

Mcfrank said:
so all of those auto manufacturing plants that have been built in the south over the last 15 years are unionized? I'd love to see some verification of that.

Companies don't do unions per plant. They have a union or they don't (hint: They all have, except Tesla) and that applies to all plants, no matter if it's in China or Mexico or whatever.

EnronERA · Jul 13, 2018

I like how any sort of criticism of Tesla prompts all these conspiracy theories about the MAN trying to stick it to little ol Tesla.

Examining and documenting QC issues on a model 3? NOPE, ITS ALL CLEARLY SABOTAGE AND THE CAR WAS DELIBERATELY DAMAGED AND THEY ARE LYING, etc etc.

Totally unhinged

Mcfrank · Jul 13, 2018

X1 Two said:
Companies don't do unions per plant. They have a union or they don't (hint: They all have, except Tesla) and that applies to all plants, no matter if it's in China or Mexico or whatever.

You are not correct about this-

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/05/business/nissan-united-auto-workers-union.html

http://www.streetdirectory.com/trav...s_union_organization_in_georgetown_plant.html

It's just Clark · Jul 13, 2018

House_Of_Lightning said:
GM has been making electric vehicles for decades.

They had a mass produced model in the 90s and ended up walking away because the tech and demand simply wasn't there.

I'm well aware of the GM EV1 and, to my understanding, its demise is a little bit more complicated than that.

Argyle said:
[citation needed]

LOL a what now? I'm sure it's nice but I'm not moving to China to buy one. Can YOU buy one?

Yo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

As soon as W. Bush was president they closed up shop and crushed all the cars (as they were leased and they refused to let anyone buy them).

Do you know what happened after that? GM had the exclusive patent rights to the large-format NiMH batteries, which they sold to Texaco, which was later acquired by Chevron. After that, they pretty much just refused to sell anyone batteries or license the patents out so that other people could make batteries. Aside from NiMH the only viable batteries were lead-acid (heavy and not enough energy density) and lithium (which at the time were unproven and expensive).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batteries

The patents are finally expired now, but lithium has come into its own anyway. Still, mission accomplished, no electric cars for decades. Don't get me wrong, I have considered GM EVs for purchase, but why anyone would root for them given their history is a bit perplexing to me.

Sure, but I mean this gap is just going to get wider? Normally they sell like 2000ish Bolts a month, that's what, less than a week's production for Tesla despite the difficulties ramping up? I think they are going to boost production by 20% of the Bolt at the end of the year but I don't see it even remotely closing the gap.

Uh, speak for yourself? I mean, I quoted Tesla's definition in my last post. Did you miss it? Let's try again.

http://ir.tesla.com/news-releases/n...sla-q2-2018-vehicle-production-and-deliveries (scroll down, past the asterisks)

"delivered" = sold to a customer. I don't know how much clearer that needs to be?

What you SHOULD be asking is where GoodCar gets their data. Their about page claims they get it from manufacturers so it is curious why they don't use the numbers provided by Tesla.

Despite Tesla's quarterly statements, a lot of publications turn to DMV registration data to parse out more "accurate" sales data. Without making any allegations and recognizing news outlets reporting DMV registrations over deliveries, I can easily see a scenario for how Tesla's definition of a car delivered to a customer and all paper work complete or in transit to be delivered can actually be something unexpected.

In my first post, I quote Tesla's Q2 PR statement of 28K Model 3's delivered and do not challenge it. Whether sold directly by Tesla or sold by a dealership for every other manufacture, a vehicle produced is a vehicle sold (eventually), yet most industry watchers use sale data over production data to gauge performance and trends.

Also, GM sells 2000ish Bolts a month plus 2000ish Volts. (Does the Spark EV even exist anymore?) The Volt is a qualifying vehicle and YTD, does outsell the Bolt. (Yes, yes, the model S and X exist too but no one cross-shops those with the B/Volt.)

Current Model 3 production numbers are not sustainable as Tesla often resorts to "burst builds" for meeting set goals - not to say that that is always going to be the case.

Argyle · Jul 13, 2018

It's just Clark said:
Despite Tesla's quarterly statements, a lot of publications turn to DMV registration data to parse out more "accurate" sales data. Without making any allegations and recognizing news outlets reporting DMV registrations over deliveries, I can easily see a scenario for how Tesla's definition of a car delivered to a customer and all paper work complete or in transit to be delivered can actually be something unexpected.

No, let's hear these allegations. Given their definition I do not see how this could lead to an unexpected result, so maybe you should enlighten us.

It's just Clark said:
In my first post, I quote Tesla's Q2 PR statement of 28K Model 3's delivered and do not challenge it. Whether sold directly by Tesla or sold by a dealership for every other manufacture, a vehicle produced is a vehicle sold (eventually), yet most industry watchers use sale data over production data to gauge performance and trends.

Yes, for Tesla delivery numbers are sales numbers. If you disagree, please explain why.

It's just Clark said:
Also, GM sells 2000ish Bolts a month plus 2000ish Volts. (Does the Spark EV even exist anymore?) The Volt is a qualifying vehicle and YTD, does outsell the Bolt. (Yes, yes, the model S and X exist too but no one cross-shops those with the B/Volt.)

No, I don't think they sell the Spark EV anymore. It was never available to most people in the US (including myself) anyway.

So combined Bolt + Volt sales in one month = like a week, possibly two of Model 3 sales at present? Cool.

It's just Clark said:
Current Model 3 production numbers are not sustainable as Tesla often resorts to "burst builds" for meeting set goals - not to say that that is always going to be the case.

I too have my doubts as to how long it will take for them to make 5K/week sustainably. Tesla claims they will be able to do it next month, we'll see.

Rival · Jul 14, 2018

I don't understand how this accident happens, and I definitely don't understand the compensation being so low!

Last week I brushed my hands against one of the employee message boards that was ever so slightly beyond the yellow lines, into the walkway and had to fill out 3 different accident forms.

It's since scarred my hand so I had to fill out another form in which I stated I DONT feel as if I should be compensated.

A discussion with the manager of the area I was in leads me to believe the company would have recieved a substantial fine and I could have been awarded thousands in compensation.

For a small superficial cut.

Theonik · Jul 14, 2018

EnronERA said:
I like how any sort of criticism of Tesla prompts all these conspiracy theories about the MAN trying to stick it to little ol Tesla.

Examining and documenting QC issues on a model 3? NOPE, ITS ALL CLEARLY SABOTAGE AND THE CAR WAS DELIBERATELY DAMAGED AND THEY ARE LYING, etc etc.

Totally unhinged

All perpetuated by BIG PETROL

House_Of_Lightning · Jul 14, 2018

Theonik said:
All perpetuated by BIG PETROL

GM EV1 cost about 100k a piece to produce in 1998 money but we'd all be driving electric cars right now if BIG PETROL didn't conspire to kill it !

SapientWolf · Jul 14, 2018

House_Of_Lightning said:
GM EV1 cost about 100k a piece to produce in 1998 money but we'd all be driving electric cars right now if BIG PETROL didn't conspire to kill it !

They rolled the (heavily government subsidized) R&D costs into that number. The marginal cost was closer to 20k. But ICE cars are more profitable so they killed the program.

House_Of_Lightning · Jul 14, 2018

We both know that the billion dollar subsidy wasn't sustainable. ICE was more profitable and cheaper and didn't require insane investment either. That's a running theme in the problems with introducing EV.

Deleted member 8561 · Jul 14, 2018

I like how we're just gonna pretend there wasn't a massively coordinated effort during the 70's, 80's, 90's, and early 2000's to prevent non-oil based energy and transportation development from actually getting off the ground.

This thread is really a gift from god.

Ryder9 · Jul 14, 2018

TheLostBigBoss said:
I like how we're just gonna pretend there wasn't a massively coordinated effort during the 70's, 80's, 90's, and early 2000's to prevent non-oil based energy and transportation development from actually getting off the ground.

This thread is really a gift from god.

elon bad cuz; everyone else is fine for doing objectively worse things though

but that's too hard, easier to bash him

Deleted member 3335 · Jul 14, 2018

I guess the technology would have just dropped out of nowhere to make it happen in the previous decades.

behOemoth · Jul 14, 2018

TheLostBigBoss said:
I like how we're just gonna pretend there wasn't a massively coordinated effort during the 70's, 80's, 90's, and early 2000's to prevent non-oil based energy and transportation development from actually getting off the ground.

This thread is really a gift from god.

Even though hybrids use gas, Toyota actually could fit in a niche and sold more than 4 million Prius to this day after 20 years. These cars still fit cities better than EVs today.

_Karooo · Jul 14, 2018

I have said it many times once the actual car companies get serious, Tesla is screwed. Their main USP right now is brand name but the output is terrible. They barely have 4-5 years before there's severe competition.

Kernel · Jul 14, 2018

_Karooo said:
I have said it many times once the actual car companies get serious, Tesla is screwed. Their main USP right now is brand name but the output is terrible. They barely have 4-5 years before there's severe competition.

They won't get serious until they have no choice, assuming that day ever happens.

I've read countless stories of people trying to buy an EV but the dealer is either clueless or actively tries to sell them on an ICE car instead. People get told you can't charge it from a standard wall outlet for example.

Most of them don't have them in stock so good luck seeing one or getting a test drive. You gotta order it and wait a few months or more.

People ask me about my EV and they're stunned how little it costs me to charge it at home. Or that I don't need to change the oil, timing belt, muffler etc ever.

I imagine a lot of dealers don't want to sell it to you when they know you won't be back every 3 months for an expensive oil change.

Dr.Phibes · Jul 14, 2018

_Karooo said:
I have said it many times once the actual car companies get serious, Tesla is screwed. Their main USP right now is brand name but the output is terrible. They barely have 4-5 years before there's severe competition.

I'm currently looking forward to the VW I.D. range coming out in late 2019. And sadly there's an actual chance of the VW Neo hitting the market before Model 3 makes it over the pond.

Deleted member 3335 · Jul 14, 2018

_Karooo said:
I have said it many times once the actual car companies get serious, Tesla is screwed. Their main USP right now is brand name but the output is terrible. They barely have 4-5 years before there's severe competition.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ill-catch-up-with-tesla-in-coming-years-study

Deleted member 8561 · Jul 14, 2018

The fact it takes a few years to catch up to Tesla just shows you how far ahead of the game Tesla is

_Karooo · Jul 14, 2018

Pmichael said:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ill-catch-up-with-tesla-in-coming-years-study

Nice, earlier than expected. We should hopefully see an explosion of charging points everywhere once things get rolling.

EnronERA · Jul 14, 2018

Let's assume for a moment that even half of the 'negative' stuff that's come out recently is true.

I still don't think Tesla is doomed, or going to go out of business/bust spectacularly etc. Not being able to handle the volume of a traditional car-maker will just mean they will partner with or get acquired by someone who can, and Tesla will continue to live on.

I think it's pretty apparent though that they have bit off more than they can chew.

enzo_gt · Jul 14, 2018

_Karooo said:
I have said it many times once the actual car companies get serious, Tesla is screwed. Their main USP right now is brand name but the output is terrible. They barely have 4-5 years before there's severe competition.

Output being terrible is a stretch IMO. Model S was a knockout, X has reliability issues and IIRC a bad consumer reports review but wasn't the worst really terrible, and I wouldn't even call the 3 terrible despite all it's glaring issues and efforts to cut cost down (which will continue to bite them in the ass as they refuse to change milestones).

Tesla is only far ahead because they've invested in infrastructure and batteries for the long-haul, and this will keep them ahead as the companies that are vying to be competitors are still going to be making low volume vehicles until they get their battery shit together. In that time, Tesla will have more models out, and reach a better point of sustainability where they can fix issues with the X and 3 the way they did the S. Germans (and their partners, and Jaguar, I guess) are the furthest ahead and still only really targeting the Model S, and those are years out as they are doing the upfront work now.

I don't think rapid progress is worth the cost of unreliable products or unsafe work conditions, but Tesla did a lot of the hard work up front that everyone else in the auto industry is still establishing relationships for, just look at Porsche's recent investment in RiMac.

Although, Toyota might have something to say about that.

Either way, it's a very exciting time for the car industry.

Kernel · Jul 14, 2018

Except for VW's Electrify America none of the other manufacturers are doing anything about the availability of public charging except build them at dealerships(which are almost always closed off for public use).

Superchargers are a bigger advantage for Tesla than anything related to their brand, mindshare or battery technology.

Except for maybe California, public charging for non Tesla EVs is terrible.

Although most people just commute to work and charge overnight in the garage as needed.

turbobrick · Jul 14, 2018

Kernel said:
They won't get serious until they have no choice, assuming that day ever happens.

I've read countless stories of people trying to buy an EV but the dealer is either clueless or actively tries to sell them on an ICE car instead. People get told you can't charge it from a standard wall outlet for example.

Most of them don't have them in stock so good luck seeing one or getting a test drive. You gotta order it and wait a few months or more.

People ask me about my EV and they're stunned how little it costs me to charge it at home. Or that I don't need to change the oil, timing belt, muffler etc ever.

I imagine a lot of dealers don't want to sell it to you when they know you won't be back every 3 months for an expensive oil change.

Having worked for a dealer, I think the real reason is that dealerships don't like ordering cars that don't sell as well. Also salesmen are pretty dumb so you can't expect them to know anything about the cars they sell. I worked in the service department, and a lot of people didn't come back for oil changes anyway unless they were discounted or free. The majority of people just go to Jiffy Lube or other places that do a $20 or less oil change. The only time a lot of people came back to the dealership for service is when we ran cheap oil change specials, but they wouldn't get any other work done even when we told them their car is pretty much falling apart. I can tell you 100% that EV's requiring less service is not the reason a dealership won't push them.

As for not having any on the lot, as I said if the car isn't a big seller, they won't stock many, or sometimes none at all. Car enthusiasts have had to deal with this for a long time. For example, a certain model might have a sporty version with a manual transmission, but good luck finding one, and when you do find one, a dealer will only have one in stock.

Orbis · Jul 14, 2018

_Karooo said:
I have said it many times once the actual car companies get serious, Tesla is screwed. Their main USP right now is brand name but the output is terrible. They barely have 4-5 years before there's severe competition.

I know others have already enlightened you but there's also the Hyundai Kona EV launching around now which does 300 miles on the 64kWh model, priced at a competitive £29k. I have the hybrid variety of the Hyundai Ioniq and if the quality on offer there is anything to go by, the Kona EV will be a hit. I think the range on the US model will be closer to 250 miles but that's decent.

Tesla Is Still In Hell With Model 3 Production

user requested account closure

Self-requested ban

user requested account closure

Self-requested ban

Self-requested ban

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

Circumventing ban with an alt account

Self-requested ban

Self-requested ban

user requested account closure

Alt account

user requested account closure