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Yasuke

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,817
He hasn't killed Nebula and he kept his Black Order alive, does he love them?

Fair point, but dude's been expressing and showing his love for Gamora since the first Guardians, and even Gamora reluctantly admits that he favors her, even if she doesn't recognize it as love herself. It's not a twist, and even if it was, it's still a test of his will.
 
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ZattMurdock

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
Except he specifically promised he wouldn't harm them if they did as he wished and then he killed them anyway.
Again, they stood on his way. His plan and "mission" goes above what he actually believes in, so lying to get what he needs to accomplish that seems exactly like something that the MCU Thanos would do. He could have all The Avengers but Thor killed before the snap. He didn't.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,002
Again, they stood on its way. His plan and "mission" goes above what he actually believes in. He could have all The Avengers but Thor killed before the snap. He didn't.

Did they? He promised he wouldn't kill them if they did as he asked. The obvious threat being that if you betray me I'll wipe you out, then he proceeded to wipe them out anyway. Do you think Dinklage would have so easily accepted Thor's offer if Thanos hadn't reneged on his promise? He actually screwed himself by breaking his promise as now the last Dwarf had nothing left to lose.
 

TheLucasLite

Member
Aug 27, 2018
1,446
Did they? He promised he wouldn't kill them if they did as he asked. The obvious threat being that if you betray me I'll wipe you out, then he proceeded to wipe them out anyway. Do you think Dinklage would have so easily accepted Thor's offer if Thanos hadn't reneged on his promise? He actually screwed himself by breaking his promise as now the last Dwarf had nothing left to lose.
The obvious logic of a villain here is one of security: "The possibility of a future threat is justification of immediate action now. Therefore, because they can possibly stand in my way, they are in my way."
 
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ZattMurdock

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
Did they? He promised he wouldn't kill them if they did as he asked. The obvious threat being that if you betray me I'll wipe you out, then he proceeded to wipe them out anyway. Do you think Dinklage would have so easily accepted Thor's offer if Thanos hadn't reneged on his promise? He actually screwed himself by breaking his promise as now the last Dwarf had nothing left to lose.
He didn't believe that a crippled Dwarf could achieve what Eitri accomplished with the help of Thor, Groot and Rocket. His arrogance - and dare I say, in his mind, mercy - almost cost him his life and the accomplishment of his mission. And yes, Dwarven are depicted as very faithful to the Asgardian people, and Eitri felt betrayed because when they needed the most, they did nothing (when Loki was pretending to be Odin and not giving two fucks what was happening in the nine realms other than indulge himself to parties and making a statue of himself).
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,002
Except he specifically didn't promise anything at all. Eitri just thought he wouldn't kill them if he did as he asked. He was wrong.

I just watched the scene again, you are correct. Still, I'm not sure what this discussion about Eitri and the Dwarves has to do with Thanos being a protagonist or some deep, complex vilain.
 

Astral

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
28,115
I learned in a literature class that a protagonist has to go through some change or transformation. So by that definition, he is not the protagonist.
 
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ZattMurdock

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
We went down this road because you or someone else made the suggestion that Thanos loved Gamorra because he didn't kill her previously. Which led us to Nebula, the Black Order, and then Etiri and the Dwarves.
Before the snap, he only kills when he needs to. He'd kill Nebula because she betrayed and tried to kill him and most of all because for some reason - maybe because he sees a lot of himself in her - he loves Gamora but doesn't love Nebula. Gamora avoided that. He only kills when he sees on his own twisted mind that it's needed. He seems himself as the hero and savior of the universe, hence why he's an excellent villain and better than Darth Vader which is still excellent, but still very much a moustache swirling villain: Vader wants to rule the galaxy, Thanos wants to save it, by killing half of it. Not really rule, but save it, and he's driven for this, at the point of killing the only creature he truly loves for it.
 

Air

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,262
As someone who is in film and has written scripts, the argsments that Thanos is not the protagonist are very silly. He very much is the main character of infinity war. Y'all are getting too caught up with thinking that the main character has to be the good guy, but that's been disassociated from storytelling for a very, very long time.

I'll check the videos out, but also thanos is not the most compelling comic book villain (or villain in a blockbuster) imo. You get a deeper understanding of him since the movie is about him, but his reasoning isn't really compelling. Ledger's joker is still probably the most charismatic, and interesting villain because of what he represents and the acting needed to get there (among many other things).
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,707
We went down this road because you or someone else made the suggestion that Thanos loved Gamorra because he didn't kill her previously. Which led us to Nebula, the Black Order, and then Etiri and the Dwarves.
Thanos doesn't kill dozens of people for various reasons. With Nebula, he doesn't kill her because he hates her and wants to hurt her as much as possible. He doesn't kill the black hand because they're reliable soldiers. He killed the dwarfs and didn't kill Eitri because he wanted to dick them over (plus cripple asgard, as others have mentioned). And he doesn't kill Gamora because he has a twisted but authentic affection for her. It'd be pretty binary to assert that he only kill or does not kill for a single reason. So, in Gamora's case, it's pretty obvious that it's because he cares for her.

I just watched the scene again, you are correct. Still, I'm not sure what this discussion about Eitri and the Dwarves has to do with Thanos being a protagonist or some deep, complex vilain.

Just to be clear, I'm largely an observer and occasional fact checker here. For me, the question of Thanos' morality is kind of pointless because to me, he's too insane to be placed on a realistic moral barometer. He's advocating getting infinite power to implement a nonsensical solution to a non-existent problem, motivated by a combination of grief, ego, righteousness, and stubbornness. As far as I can tell, his positive emotions toward others are genuine (his feelings for Gamora, respect for Stark, value of his Black Hand), but it doesn't really mean anything when those emotions are pushed through such an insane filter that it comes off as nonsense to anyone on the other end of it.

Does that make him a deep character? I dunno, but he's an interesting character to pick apart.
 

Osahi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,936
So let's switch your perspective a little bit. The "hero" of most blockbuster movies follow the basic path of early success, setback, then overcoming their obstacles and "winning." One could make the argument that of course they were going to ultimately succeed, they are the protagonist, the hero - there's an inherent dissatisfaction if the main character of a movie fails in the end. So if we view Thanos from the perspective of a villain or antagonist, him succeeding is surprising; it's when we view him from the perspective of a protagonist that him achieving his goal seems a given. I just booted up Infinity War, and the first line Thanos says is "I know what it's like to lose."

Thanos' belief system is changed in the movie, although it's challenged multiple times and integral to who he is comes from he beliefs being opposed. His driving motivation is having the will to carry out his belief system because at one point he didn't and that lead to his home one destroying itself. Infinity War is about him finding the will to do what he thinks is right, and his sacrifice of seemingly the only thing in the universe is not just a plot twist, but a defining moment in his character arc. It's why the final shot with him chilling on his farm with his armor put up in the form of a scarecrow, because his motivations aren't to kill people, but to balance out the universe so it can be prosperous. His character growth isn't just who he is from the first minute to the last second, it also takes into account who he was and where he came from in the exposition and subtext of the movie. And, continuing with the idea of subtext, for a while it seems as if power is a driving motivation for Thanos and his ideology is used as a justification, but by the end of the movie we see that isn't true anymore.

And again, to harp on the Thanos doesn't have obstacles part, that's just not true. Thanos has a moment of self doubt before sacrificing Gamora. Thanos almost loses to Tony and the crew, and might have lost if it wasn't for Quill, and he only barely succeeds there. Even with Thor we see him almost get killed. I get that it isn't like Bruce Willis in Die Hard where it's remarkable he doesn't die and barely is able to overcome the obstacles, or Batman in The Dark Knight Rises where Bruce is literally broken and beaten and has to claw his way to victory, but if the whole idea is Thanos is physically challenged enough or doesn't have a single decisive defeat for the climax of the movie that's not something that undermines the idea that Thanos is or is not the protagonist that just goes to show the mechanics of writing a character that is meant to be the indomitable villain that Thanos is while also writing him to be the protagonist. You can view him putting his generals in charge as a mistake or defeat if you so wish, but I think for the genre and what Thanos is meant to be for the MCU him being defeated might have hurt his image. Before getting the Stones he defeats the Hulk, and him overcoming everything else underscores not just how powerful he is, but also the will to win that he showcases. In a traditional movie, Thanos would lose in the end, but he doesn't. Just like in a traditional movie the protagonist will win, even if it costs them greatly. That's the clear parallel that you are dismissing, I think, in your attempt to categorize everything as some orthodoxy of writing when this is more akin to the debate on whether a hot dog is a sandwich. It's in the margins.

First and foremost. It's not inherent to the protagonist to 'win' at all. There are many stories where the protagonist loses or doesn't achieve his goal, or where the ending is both negative and positive at the same time. As I stressed before, usually the Protagonist is the one who is the most affected by the events and changes trough them. Who discovers a new part of himself. Thanos winning doesn't suddenly make him the protagonist. It just makes him the one who wins. Granted, the villain winning is something that doesn't happen a lot in a blockbuster movie, but that's another area of discussion and analysis.

Again. Thanos does not change, nor are his believes actually challenged nor is he forced to change them. He starts with a goal, goes on to chase that goal and achieves it without his believes or character truly being tested. It's a McGuffin chase, where the suposed protagonist gets all his McGuffins fairly easily along the way. It's as straightforward as it gets, and straightforward is what you should avoid in your protagonists (or any) story. A protagonist getting all he wants, without it changing him forever. Why would you want to see that (or tell that story)?

You say his arc doesn't start at minute one. And that's ehm... wrong. As a viewer you get presented a story with a beginning, middle and end, and you expect those to be te rightfully chosen moments to show us the arc of the protagonist. If the change has happened in the backstory, than simply said you have started your story too late. Than you have skipped the important beats of his story. For us, the story starts when the movie starts. Backstory is necessairy for understanding motivations and to set-up a character, but it is not to retroactively claim the protagonist has changed when it's not in the text of the film. We need to see the change IN the film. We need to be there when it happens. And we need to understand that it happens. IW fails on this with Thanos. Apparently his change lies before the movie begins, and his one true character moment, which suposedly is a change, is told in a way we do not perceive it as a change of character, but as a change of how we VIEW the character. (I'll go in on that again later). You know, this is my biggest issue with IW actually. It doesn't tell a story. It barely has any arcs or change in it's characters. It's allmost all plot and set-up. Your argument is a good example of this, because to claim change you have to look outside the text and into backstory. My dramaturgical question is then: why tell these events? And not those from the backstory?

You also say this: "for a while it seems as if power is a driving motivation for Thanos and his ideology is used as a justification, but by the end of the movie we see that isn't true anymore." I highlighted the key words, because you enforce my point. The only change surrounding Thanos' character is how we perceive him. He doesn't change, we discover new things that change our opinion on him. That's not an arc or character growth/change, those are reveals and twists. There is no text nor subtext that implies Thanos has changed his goals or intention. He always acted from a misguided 'saving the universe'-idea, not from powerhunger.

And this brings us to his challenges. His biggest one is suposedly Gamora. But like I said before, in the way it is told it is not presented to us as a big change in character or a huge challenge to overcome. It's presented to us as a reveal and a twist. I've explained it before enough, so I won't go to deep in it. But I can point you to the mirror of this scene. When Gamora asks Star Lord to sacrifice her, a similar set-up DOES illicit character change. This scene is told from Star Lords perspective, and we know he is not someone willing to sacrifice. Him pulling the trigger (shame of the cop-out) is a huge change for him. It's not for Thanos. We have seen Thanos stopping at nothing to achieve his goal, and in his sacrifice-Gamora-scene he does just that: stopping at nothing. It's not change. Him shedding a tear or having a reflective moment after it, doesn't make it so neither. It just shows is this big dude might have had a heart after all. (Changing our perception of him, not who he is)

His other challenges are physical. Physical challenges do not force a character to change his character. It's a test of power. You point to two instances he almost loses. Those are actually good examples of why he isn't the protagonist (or if he is supposed to be one, a dull one). In both ocassions he doesn't overcome these challenges because he acts, he does because the Avengers make mistakes. Star-Lord flips out (very frustrating to watch, as it kind of reverts a change in his character we just witnessed, reinforcing my idea that in IW plot is more important than story and character) and Thor doesn't go for the head. It's not really compelling for a protagonist on a supposed Hero's Journey to hinge on the mistakes of others. No, the Avengers are the protagonists here. They have 'the biggest hill' to climb and are faced with the biggest challenges. IW doesn't tell a very good story, because it lacks or muddles the change of it's protagonists, and because the story only gets actually interesting when the Snap happens, but it is clear the Avengers are the protags. Thanos is at most a deutoragonist.

And I don't try to catagorize everything in an orthodoxy. I know very well there are more exceptions than rules in storytelling and screenwriting. But if you present me with an argument like 'it's a hero's journey Thanos undertakes', I'll hold that claim to the light of what a Hero's journey is, to see if Thanos fits that bill. And I do this with all these arguments. I'm not saying a protagonist needs to be the one whose point of view is used, or that a protagonist always needs change, or that he has to hit all the traditional beats. But I look at all of these to find a compelling argument why Thanos is the protagonist, and I can't find one. Because he doesn't fit any of these aspects, nor is IW the kind of story that justifies the lack of one of these aspects (a non-changing protagonist for instance usually features in a specific type of story, where not he changes, but his environment does trough his actions. Added to that, the believes of such a protagonists are usually challenged along the way, tempting him to change)
 
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Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,811
I haven't seen or purchased Infinity War after seeing in the theaters like more than ten times, but one thing this post evolution of posts made me think is something I think it's barely touched upon discussions of Thanos motivations:



There're parallels to be made here with christianity and Thanos being a messiah figure in reverse. It's not a stretch to imagine that just like the Black Order believed that they were "saving" the people they killed, that was also the belief of Thanos himself. So in fact, the great mad Titan in fact cared about the people he was killing, on his own twisted logic. Basically in a lot of ways, Thanos is not just a mass murderer, but the science fiction version of the MCU of the anti-christ: religious following and all. There's a lot of commentary to be made here how this is explored in the film and how personal beliefs can become dangerous.

Creating infinite resources wouldn't provide balance. People would become lazy, greedy, it would create new problems. Thanos doesn't want to create an unnatural universe, he wants balance and to prove himself right.

Yup. It's plainly obvious that Thanos wants to teach people that his way is the right way by the fact that he considers everyone his "children". Daddy Thanos knows what's best for you, in his own sick logic he delivers punishment to his children in order to teach them lessons that he considers important. I think for him creating more resources would be the equivalent of a kid spending his allowance all in one day and the parent giving him more money instead of teaching him fiscal responsibility. It is consistent with his personality and the horrible way he treats his 'children' that he would severely punish people for not doing what he thinks is right instead of rewarding them for what he thinks is bad behavior.

Thanos getting that win is one of my all-time favorite cinema moments. So happy is saw that on the screen.

Yeah, it's truly great. The last five minutes were an awesome theater experience, so many people shocked! Fantastic stuff.
 

Waaghals

Member
Oct 27, 2017
859
Thanos is dumb and his "solution" to the universe's problem is childish, simplistic and stupid.

Sure, he is better than most other Marvel villains, but that is a rather low bar.
 

Deleted member 2809

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,478
Thanos is dumb and his "solution" to the universe's problem is childish, simplistic and stupid.

Sure, he is better than most other Marvel villains, but that is a rather low bar.
Infinite resources is not possible, and infinite growth with limited resources is unsustainable
There probably could have been better solutions but then it would have become mumbo jumbo, his plan makes sense for a short term solution and he's also called the mad titan for a reason. Dude had a grudge with the titan people who banned him, so he went for it to prove he was "right".
 

Deleted member 27246

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
3,066
Was the ending shocking or surprising for comic readers though?

Don't get me wrong, it was an awesome moment and great ending...but surprising it was not. The only question was which ones would disappear.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,002
First and foremost. It's not inherent to the protagonist to 'win' at all. There are many stories where the protagonist loses or doesn't achieve his goal, or where the ending is both negative and positive at the same time. As I stressed before, usually the Protagonist is the one who is the most affected by the events and changes trough them. Who discovers a new part of himself. Thanos winning doesn't suddenly make him the protagonist. It just makes him the one who wins. Granted, the villain winning is something that doesn't happen a lot in a blockbuster movie, but that's another area of discussion and analysis.

Again. Thanos does not change, nor are his believes actually challenged nor is he forced to change them. He starts with a goal, goes on to chase that goal and achieves it without his believes or character truly being tested. It's a McGuffin chase, where the suposed protagonist gets all his McGuffins fairly easily along the way. It's as straightforward as it gets, and straightforward is what you should avoid in your protagonists (or any) story. A protagonist getting all he wants, without it changing him forever. Why would you want to see that (or tell that story)?

You say his arc doesn't start at minute one. And that's ehm... wrong. As a viewer you get presented a story with a beginning, middle and end, and you expect those to be te rightfully chosen moments to show us the arc of the protagonist. If the change has happened in the backstory, than simply said you have started your story too late. Than you have skipped the important beats of his story. For us, the story starts when the movie starts. Backstory is necessairy for understanding motivations and to set-up a character, but it is not to retroactively claim the protagonist has changed when it's not in the text of the film. We need to see the change IN the film. We need to be there when it happens. And we need to understand that it happens. IW fails on this with Thanos. Apparently his change lies before the movie begins, and his one true character moment, which suposedly is a change, is told in a way we do not perceive it as a change of character, but as a change of how we VIEW the character. (I'll go in on that again later). You know, this is my biggest issue with IW actually. It doesn't tell a story. It barely has any arcs or change in it's characters. It's allmost all plot and set-up. Your argument is a good example of this, because to claim change you have to look outside the text and into backstory. My dramaturgical question is then: why tell these events? And not those from the backstory?

You also say this: "for a while it seems as if power is a driving motivation for Thanos and his ideology is used as a justification, but by the end of the movie we see that isn't true anymore." I highlighted the key words, because you enforce my point. The only change surrounding Thanos' character is how we perceive him. He doesn't change, we discover new things that change our opinion on him. That's not an arc or character growth/change, those are reveals and twists. There is no text nor subtext that implies Thanos has changed his goals or intention. He always acted from a misguided 'saving the universe'-idea, not from powerhunger.

And this brings us to his challenges. His biggest one is suposedly Gamora. But like I said before, in the way it is told it is not presented to us as a big change in character or a huge challenge to overcome. It's presented to us as a reveal and a twist. I've explained it before enough, so I won't go to deep in it. But I can point you to the mirror of this scene. When Gamora asks Star Lord to sacrifice her, a similar set-up DOES illicit character change. This scene is told from Star Lords perspective, and we know he is not someone willing to sacrifice. Him pulling the trigger (shame of the cop-out) is a huge change for him. It's not for Thanos. We have seen Thanos stopping at nothing to achieve his goal, and in his sacrifice-Gamora-scene he does just that: stopping at nothing. It's not change. Him shedding a tear or having a reflective moment after it, doesn't make it so neither. It just shows is this big dude might have had a heart after all. (Changing our perception of him, not who he is)

His other challenges are physical. Physical challenges do not force a character to change his character. It's a test of power. You point to two instances he almost loses. Those are actually good examples of why he isn't the protagonist (or if he is supposed to be one, a dull one). In both ocassions he doesn't overcome these challenges because he acts, he does because the Avengers make mistakes. Star-Lord flips out (very frustrating to watch, as it kind of reverts a change in his character we just witnessed, reinforcing my idea that in IW plot is more important than story and character) and Thor doesn't go for the head. It's not really compelling for a protagonist on a supposed Hero's Journey to hinge on the mistakes of others. No, the Avengers are the protagonists here. They have 'the biggest hill' to climb and are faced with the biggest challenges. IW doesn't tell a very good story, because it lacks or muddles the change of it's protagonists, and because the story only gets actually interesting when the Snap happens, but it is clear the Avengers are the protags. Thanos is at most a deutoragonist.

And I don't try to catagorize everything in an orthodoxy. I know very well there are more exceptions than rules in storytelling and screenwriting. But if you present me with an argument like 'it's a hero's journey Thanos undertakes', I'll hold that claim to the light of what a Hero's journey is, to see if Thanos fits that bill. And I do this with all these arguments. I'm not saying a protagonist needs to be the one whose point of view is used, or that a protagonist always needs change, or that he has to hit all the traditional beats. But I look at all of these to find a compelling argument why Thanos is the protagonist, and I can't find one. Because he doesn't fit any of these aspects, nor is IW the kind of story that justifies the lack of one of these aspects (a non-changing protagonist for instance usually features in a specific type of story, where not he changes, but his environment does trough his actions. Added to that, the believes of such a protagonists are usually challenged along the way, tempting him to change)

Thank you!

Somebody else gets it.
 

Mariachi507

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,294
"What did it cost?"

"Everything."

He's the protagonist in the sense of the perspective and how the story is framed. That's the intent behind Infinity War and also how it's portrayed. The OP isn't talking about a foreign concept here, it's been used in storytelling for generations.
 

Waaghals

Member
Oct 27, 2017
859
Infinite resources is not possible, and infinite growth with limited resources is unsustainable
There probably could have been better solutions but then it would have become mumbo jumbo, his plan makes sense for a short term solution and he's also called the mad titan for a reason. Dude had a grudge with the titan people who banned him, so he went for it to prove he was "right".

Sure, but suddenly killing half of every living thing in the universe could have unintended consequences. There is just no way to make that "clean".
It might provoke extreme unrest.

You know, galactic wars, doomsday weapons etc.

If half the people on the planet dropped dead one day the international (and national political system) would implode.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,002
"What did it cost?"

"Everything."

He's the protagonist in the sense of the perspective and how the story is framed. That's the intent behind Infinity War and also how it's portrayed. The OP isn't talking about a foreign concept here, it's been used in storytelling for generations.

Except the story is not framed from his perspective nor does the movie flow from his character.
 
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OP
ZattMurdock

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
Except the story is not framed from his perspective nor does the movie flow from his character.
It is. It obviously is. From start to finish. The twist isn't just that he "won", it's that the film gives us the reasons why despite completely fucked up, in the context of the story, he earned his victory. Thanos is the character with the complete arc, while the others are reacting to it.

The way you are so adamant and willing to die on this hill is telling of your own other film opinions, to be honest. Please go on, bwahaha.
 

Osahi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,936
Thank you!

Somebody else gets it.

Thanks buddy :)

It is. It obviously is. From start to finish. The twist isn't just that he "won", it's that the film gives us the reasons why despite completely fucked up, in the context of the story, he earned his victory. Thanos is the character with the complete arc, while the others are reacting to it.

The way you are so adamant and willing to die on this hill is telling of your own other film opinions, to be honest. Please go on, bwahaha.

What arc? An arc implies change in character. Thanos doesn't change at all in this film. He just achieves his goal.

The 'Thanos is the protagonist'-argument is just there to cover up IW structural and dramaturgical flaws: it's a non-story, that's all plot with barely any character development for it's protagonists, which fails to make the most of the MCU build up by not even pairing the character's who have grown apart in previous adventures. A movie which takes 2,5 hours to tick of McGuffins to then finally come to a point where the actual story seems to start (and then it ends)

The Avengers are the protagonists. But because IW is all plot and no story, they aren't very compelling ones. So to cover that, Thanos has to be the protagonist right? Right? Well, even if he was, he is a terrible one.

There is just very little to support the idea that Thanos is the protagonist. There is not a checklist of stuff a protagonist has to adhere to, but many things asociated with protagonist don't apply to him. The story is not told from his perspective (it's not necessairy for a protagonist, but if this is suposed to be a hero's journey like some claim, it's kind of logical to do so), he doesn't change, he doesn't have a 'need' to discover as opposed to or in conjunction with his 'want', his believe system isn't tested along the way. He is not even properly introduced and set-up, which makes the suposes scenes where he 'changes' or is 'challenged' fall flat or strike a different beat. It's not 'Thanos has it hard with killing one he loves' (We know him as someone who'll stop at nothing, so seeing him do exactly that doesn't affirm change), but 'Oh, Thanos does love someone. What a twist'. Thanos is at most the deutoragonist, but is in essence the antagonist, putting our protagonists trough challenges.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,002
He gets, by a significant margin, the most screen time and dialogue. If it's not his story, who's is it?

He gets the most screen-time as a product of being the singular antagonist and the heroes being separate people. But, screentime alone is not telling of whether or not he is the central focus of the movie.

A break down shows that Thanos has the most screen time at 29 minutes. After him comes:

Gamora - 19:30 Minutes
Tony Stark / Iron Man - 18 Minutes
Thor - 14:30 Minutes
Dr. Stephen Strange - 11:30 Minutes
Peter Quill / Star-Lord - 10:15 Minutes
Vision - 9:45 Minutes

Now, Gamora scenes are mostly separate from Stark scenes and her scenes are probably half with Thanos, half with Guardians. Tony is all by himself and does not coincide with Thor, the same with Vision whose separate from the rest. Star-Lord and Strange start off separate, but coincide with Stark. What am I getting at? Well, when you combine them together the Heroes are obviously the focus of the movie. Stark as 18 minutes of just him, then Thor has 14:30 minutes of just him, and then Vision 9:45m of just him. I'm saying "just him" in the context that they are seperate from the other leading screentime characters (Tony, Thor, Vision). That together is far more time than Thanos ever gets.

And, the movie flows from these characters. We'll often follow them from scene to scene. The movie rarely flows from one Thanos scene to the next, instead its typically framed as the heroes encounter him. That is not the sign of a protagonist, but an antagonist. The scene on Knowhere should solidify this. If he were a protagonist we'd actually see him travel there and set up his illusion as opposed to framing the whole encounter from the perspective of the Guardians.

This is basic stuff.


It is. It obviously is. From start to finish. The twist isn't just that he "won", it's that the film gives us the reasons why despite completely fucked up, in the context of the story, he earned his victory. Thanos is the character with the complete arc, while the others are reacting to it.

The way you are so adamant and willing to die on this hill is telling of your own other film opinions, to be honest. Please go on, bwahaha.

No one has an arc in IW. And, my film opinions are always correct.
🤞😁
 

DeltaRed

Member
Apr 27, 2018
5,746
He gets the most screen-time as a product of being the singular antagonist and the heroes being separate people. But, screentime alone is not telling of whether or not he is the central focus of the movie.

A break down shows that Thanos has the most screen time at 29 minutes. After him comes:

Gamora - 19:30 Minutes
Tony Stark / Iron Man - 18 Minutes
Thor - 14:30 Minutes
Dr. Stephen Strange - 11:30 Minutes
Peter Quill / Star-Lord - 10:15 Minutes
Vision - 9:45 Minutes

Now, Gamora scenes are mostly separate from Stark scenes and her scenes are probably half with Thanos, half with Guardians. Tony is all by himself and does not coincide with Thor, the same with Vision whose separate from the rest. Star-Lord and Strange start off separate, but coincide with Stark. What am I getting at? Well, when you combine them together the Heroes are obviously the focus of the movie. Stark as 18 minutes of just him, then Thor has 14:30 minutes of just him, and then Vision 9:45m of just him. I'm saying "just him" in the context that they are seperate from the other leading screentime characters (Tony, Thor, Vision). That together is far more time than Thanos ever gets.

And, the movie flows from these characters. We'll often follow them from scene to scene. The movie rarely flows from one Thanos scene to the next, instead its typically framed as the heroes encounter him. That is not the sign of a protagonist, but an antagonist. The scene on Knowhere should solidify this. If he were a protagonist we'd actually see him travel there and set up his illusion as opposed to framing the whole encounter from the perspective of the Guardians.

This is basic stuff.
Thank you for that patronising last comment, not sure what I did to deserve that?

Every single character's actions in the film are driven by Thanos, he is the reason everything in the film happens. It opens with him aquiring the Space Stone and setting off to get the remaining gems, he completes his goal and the movie ends with a shot of him completing his goal and cutting to the credits. There is basically nothing else in the film apart from Thanos' mission. Gamora gets the second most significant screentime because of her relationship to him. It is an ensemble film with dozens of characters and Thanos clocks up by far the most screentime, think about that.

Loki does not have the most screentime in the first Avengers film. Ultron doesn't have it in the second. Thanos does not get the most screentime and dialogue in this simply because he's the villain.
 
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BlackGoku03

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,275
Just want to say this is a great discussion. I agree with BossAttack in that Thanos isn't really the protagonist. Not in the true sense of the word.

But the filmmakers framed him that way and got the audience to buy into it.
 

Mariachi507

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,294
Except the story is not framed from his perspective nor does the movie flow from his character.

It does for a good part of it though, which is substantial in an ensemble piece. If this is Dazed and Confused he would be Randall "Pink" Floyd. Now I'm not going to actually try to convince you that this dude is the "protagonist" of this story, he's obviously not in the most general sense. I'm saying that the writers and directors approached the character as if he was. That's what I mean by saying the story was framed and presented as Thanos'. Of course I'm talking about the main storyline in this instance, being his journey to the stones and the price of him doing so.

And whoever brought it up, he does actually have an arc. It's not the arciest arc that ever arc'd, but it's an arc nonetheless. To compare it to a better character and film, it's kind of similar to Michael Corleone's arc in Godfather II. Both characters reaching for power for what they believe to be a noble reason but having to sell their souls in the process. The change in character is internal. Both are evil assholes at the beginning and ending of their respective films, but there is a bit of pathos at play, and they'll have to live on as their decisions haunt them.
 
Oct 26, 2017
20,440
Somewhat adjacent to this video, but the amount of people who think Thanos was right when the movie came out immediately after China abandoning its one child policy which produced no benefits and destroyed even more of Chinese culture is uhhhhhhh.

Like, let's look beyond the mass killing for a moment. We just had a large scale experiment with population control that ended in total failure.
 

takriel

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,221
What makes Thanos interesting? He bases his actions on a rather dumb philosophy. He shows no depth or emotions (and when he does shed a tear before Gamora, it's not earned at all because we haven't seen enough of their "relationship"). He has no problem with murdering people.

He's pretty one-dimensional.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,720
I don't know why screen time is being brought up, it doesn't mean anything in regards to being a protagonist. No County for Old Men is a good example of the protagonist having far less screen time compared to other characters. Though I hear the book makes it more explicit that Bell is the protagonist.

And you can have multiple protagonists who are at the same time antagonistic to each other depending on the perspective.

Main characters are also called point of view characters, that's usually when screen time becomes morevmeaningful.

Protagonists don't need to be the point of view character, i.e they don't need to be the main character.

FF12 is an example of the POV character(Vaan) being separate from the main story protagonist(Ashe). That's not to say Vaan couldn't be considered a protagonist.

Really none of this shit is set in stone.
 

Ravenwraith

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,350
What makes Thanos interesting? He bases his actions on a rather dumb philosophy. He shows no depth or emotions (and when he does shed a tear before Gamora, it's not earned at all because we haven't seen enough of their "relationship"). He has no problem with murdering people.

He's pretty one-dimensional.


The only thing that I can come up with is how exciting and harrowing it is to watch him decimate the heroes people cherish so much. I think about that Darth Vader scene from Rogue One geek communities got so hyped about and think about how Infinity War is like 2 hours of that with more characters we care about in it and it clicks. Marvel also left enough implications about his character for people to fill in the blanks and create a great character in their mind.

And sure watching him beat up the Avengers was fun but I was disappointed to find that Thanos isn't really smart about any of this. He's more like a battering ram brute forcing everything to get what he wants. He was born stronger than most of the heroes and he's made up the difference on the few that could challenge him by the time he has the first stone. I was expecting a very pragmatic character but he flat out leaves characters alive when it's not necessary.
 

entrydenied

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
7,567
Okay? Im still saying you are wrong and the writers are right cause I believe their experience with storytelling is good enough to have me believe they are right.

It's one thing to want to write and direct a film that shows Thanos as protagonist, it's another to critically examine whether the directors have achieved what they set out to do.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,002
I decided to do a half-rewatch of the movie just to make sure my analysis was correct. And yeah, Thanos is definitely not the protagonist of the movie. I already explained how him having the most screen time is not indicative of him being the focus of the movie. I also explained how the movie does not flow nor follow from his character. And, upon rewatch this is SUPER apparent, the movie does not in any way flow from Thanos as he is largely absent for large chunks of the movie. Instead, the film actually follows and flows with the actual protagonists of the movie, the Marvel Heroes.

Here's a rough break down to understand:

0:00-9:50 said:
The movie starts off with the attack on the Asgardian ship and the introduction of Thanos with Thor. The secene ends with the destruction of the Asgardian ship as Thanos and the Black Order teleport away, lingering on Thor as he embraces Loki. This is one of the longest scenes with Thanos in it, running for 9 minutes and 50 seconds.

Well, what happens after this? Does the movie continue to follow Thanos? Do we move with him to the next scene? No, what follows is one of the longest periods in-between seeing Thanos, our supposed protagonist, again. So, what does happen? Well, we are introduced to all of the actual protagonists of the film as they learn about and prepare for Thanos. We follow Hulk as he crashes into Strange's House, we are introduced to Tony Stark and Pepper, we watch as Tony teams up with Strange and Banner, we watch them engage in Black Order whilst Spider-Man shows up. And, we watch as they lose and Tony chases them.

Do we cut back to Thanos now? No, what did you think he was the protagonist? We're just getting started, we have more heroes to introduce and follow. Next we are introduced to the Guardians who meet up with Thor, they share some heart-to-heart before separating, then we move on to Vision and Wanda who are rudely interrupted causing Captain America and Co. to show up to save their asses. Then they all hop in a Jet to go back to Avengers HQ.

43:03-44:28 said:
AND NOW, we get to see Thanos again. Yes, 43 minutes and 3 seconds into the movie he shows up again. But, there's a catch it's from the perspective of Gamorra in a flashback. The entire flashback runs about 1m 20s.

We do not cut to the real Thanos after this flashback concludes, obviously, since the movie isn't about him. We cut to Gamorra spending some private time with Quill.

48:19-53:46 said:
Finally, Thanos shows up for real this time. No flashback, the actual Thanos. This is 48 minutes into the movie, meaning about 38 minutes from his last real scene. Of course, this entire encounter is framed from the perspective of the Guardians as they seek to stop Thanos from obtaining the Reality Stone on Knowhere. This scene is never framed from the perspective of Thanos. The Guardians fight, they lose, and Thanos leaves with Gamorra. All told we're talking about 5m and 20s.

After that, it's back to our heroes as we shuffle between them. Cap and his team meet up at Avengers HQ and then they travel to Wakanda, then we cut back to the Maw with Strange and Stark, then the Guardians invade the ship so they can all meet up.

1:05:23-1:11:05 said:
Back to Thanos who finally just gets a talking scene and isn't just punching stuff. He has a little chat with Gamorra about her life before demanding that she reveal the location of the Soul Stone. It should be noted that, again, this scene is not framed from the view of Thanos. No, instead it is framed from the perspective of Gamorra who constantly looks up to Thanos and who the camera centers on and mostly follows. Gamorra eventually relents after the reveal of Nebula being tortured.

What happens next is a crazy scene as the movie once again focuses back on our heroes, shuffling through them all and then back again. Remember how I was stressing the flow of the movie? This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about, the movie flows with these heroes. We cut to Thor and Rocket having a quick heart-to-heart chat before arriving at the Dwarven Ring, we then cut to Iron Man and the Guardians formally meeting and discussing a plan, then we cut back to Thor and Rocket as they plan with Eitri on how to craft Stormbreaker, then we cut back to the Guardians and Stark on Titan as they deal with the plan on how to stop Thanos as Strange reveals the future. That's called a flow and the movie flows with the heroes.

1:24:20-1:31:08 said:
After such a smattering of hero shuffling we get to see Thanos again as he and Gamorra travel to Vormir. This is one of his longest scenes and one of the few actually framed with him as the central perspective. Thanos takes the center of the camera and attention, while Gamorra is placed in the background for most of the scenes. It ends with him sacrificing her and obtaining the Soul Stone. That's 7 whole minutes of Thanos.

After that, we go back to Wakanda to prepare for Thanos, we cut back to Thor preparing to build Stormbreaker, then back to Wakanda as the battle starts and worsens, then back to Thor has he nearly completes Stormbreaker, then back to Wakanda where the situation gets dire, then cut to Thor arriving in Wakanda to fanfare. Wooooooooo!

1:46:00 said:
Thanos arrives on Titan to fight everyone.

At this point, I stopped tracking because the flow of the movie was clear and the rest of the movie is mostly Thanos just switching between punching people on Titan to punching people on Earth. None of these encounters are framed with him as the central focus as opposed to our heroes.

So again, how is he the protagonist? How does the movie flow from his character?
 
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Deleted member 2317

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,072
YouTube causes brain worms

Thanos is barely a character, let alone a "protagonist" or "hero"

He is literally summed up by a single, incredibly stupid idea: kill half of everything because reasons

I understand why they didn't go with the idea from the comics that he is literally in love / obsessed with the personification of Death, but that's actually a much better character motivation

IW was a fun movie but Thanos is not even a good villain
Damn Gina.
 
Oct 28, 2017
13,691
I decided to do a half-rewatch of the movie just to make sure my analysis was correct. And yeah, Thanos is definitely not the protagonist of the movie. I already explained how him having the most screen time is not indicative of him being the focus of the movie. I also explained how the movie does not flow nor follow from his character. And, upon rewatch this is SUPER apparent, the movie does not in any way flow from Thanos as he is largely absent for large chunks of the movie. Instead, the film actually follows and flows with the actual protagonists of the movie, the Marvel Heroes.

Here's a rough break down to understand:



Well, what happens after this? Does the movie continue to follow Thanos? Do we move with him to the next scene? No, what follows is one of the longest periods in-between seeing Thanos, our supposed protagonist, again. So, what does happen? Well, we are introduced to all of the actual protagonists of the film as they learn about and prepare for Thanos. We follow Hulk as he crashes into Strange's House, we are introduced to Tony Stark and Pepper, we watch as Tony teams up with Strange and Banner, we watch them engage in Black Order whilst Spider-Man shows up. And, we watch as they lose and Tony chases them.

Do we cut back to Thanos now? No, what did you think he was the protagonist? We're just getting started, we have more heroes to introduce and follow. Next we are introduced to the Guardians who meet up with Thor, they share some heart-to-heart before separating, then we move on to Vision and Wanda who are rudely interrupted causing Captain America and Co. to show up to save their asses. Then they all hop in a Jet to go back to Avengers HQ.



We do not cut to the real Thanos after this flashback concludes, obviously, since the movie isn't about him. We cut to Gamorra spending some private time with Quill.



After that, it's back to our heroes as we shuffle between them. Cap and his team meet up at Avengers HQ and then they travel to Wakanda, then we cut back to the Maw with Strange and Stark, then the Guardians invade the ship so they can all meet up.



What happens next is a crazy scene as the movie once again focuses back on our heroes, shuffling through them all and then back again. Remember how I was stressing the flow of the movie? This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about, the movie flows with these heroes. We cut to Thor and Rocket having a quick heart-to-heart chat before arriving at the Dwarven Ring, we then cut to Iron Man and the Guardians formally meeting and discussing a plan, then we cut back to Thor and Rocket as they plan with Eitri on how to craft Stormbreaker, then we cut back to the Guardians and Stark on Titan as they deal with the plan on how to stop Thanos as Strange reveals the future. That's called a flow and the movie flows with the heroes.



After that, we go back to Wakanda to prepare for Thanos, we cut back to Thor preparing to build Stormbreaker, then back to Wakanda as the battle starts and worsens, then back to Thor has he nearly completes Stormbreaker, then back to Wakanda where the situation gets dire, then cut to Thor arriving in Wakanda to fanfare. Wooooooooo!



At this point, I stopped tracking because the flow of the movie was clear and the rest of the movie is mostly Thanos just switching between punching people on Titan to punching people on Earth. None of these encounters are framed with him as the central focus as opposed to our heroes.

So again, how is he the protagonist? How does the movie flow from his character?

He's the driving force behind the movie just like villains and bad guys have been in movies for ages. He is not the protagonist, like you said. A rewatch isn't even necessary but I give you credit for putting yourself through all that lol
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,002
He's the driving force behind the movie just like villains and bad guys have been in movies for ages. He is not the protagonist, like you said. A rewatch isn't even necessary but I give you credit for putting yourself through all that lol

I was looking at too many IW memes today and wanted to rewatch some of the movie.
 

Ravenwraith

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,350
Do people cling to the whole "he's the protagonist" thing because it makes the movie sound smarter and more groundbreaking than it actually is
 
One defense I've seen of Thanos leaving many opponents alive is simply that Thanos sees himself as a just being. Tasked with a horrible burden, but ultimately committed to a form of justice - notice when speaking of Titan, he notes that the rich would not be favored over the poor. Indicating he sees himself as having a form of social awareness and moral responsibility.

Therefore, he does not murder people who don't deserve it in his eyes - even Loki was punishment for failure / betrayal. He stabs Tony and acknowledges that Tony may likely die because he can see Tony won't stop - Thanos has no choice but to use deadly force. In most cases Thanos only uses enough force to get an opponent out of his way long enough to finish the task at hand.
 

Ravenwraith

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,350
One defense I've seen of Thanos leaving many opponents alive is simply that Thanos sees himself as a just being. Tasked with a horrible burden, but ultimately committed to a form of justice - notice when speaking of Titan, he notes that the rich would not be favored over the poor. Indicating he sees himself as having a form of social awareness and moral responsibility.

Therefore, he does not murder people who don't deserve it in his eyes - even Loki was punishment for failure / betrayal. He stabs Tony and acknowledges that Tony may likely die because he can see Tony won't stop - Thanos has no choice but to use deadly force. In most cases Thanos only uses enough force to get an opponent out of his way long enough to finish the task at hand.

I mean I get that there''s some loose justification for it in the narrative but it leads to an extremely uninteresting dynamic between him and the other characters for me. Maybe this will change with the next movie.
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,103
Sweden
I really hope Endgame brings some sort of conclusion to "the argument", about why we go about doing things the way we do, and not resorting to genocide to solve problems, psychopath-style.

Instead of just the avengers showing up and might makes right.
 

Osahi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,936
Do people cling to the whole "he's the protagonist" thing because it makes the movie sound smarter and more groundbreaking than it actually is
Pretty much. It's often used as an argument when you point out that Infinity War is all plot and no story, has no character arcs whatsoever, and only really comes alive at the snap.

But it's also because the Rousseau's and the writer's said 'he is sort of the protagonist'. Which might have been their intention, but isn't really supported by the movie at all. Above that, regarding Thanos as the protagonist doesn't solve any of Infinity War's problems (with him as a protagonist it is still a race from McGuffin to McGuffin without real story in between), so it's a non-argument anyway.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,618
Spain
They lost me at "The MCU is the biggest, most complicated storytelling endeavor ever undertaken in human history".

Yeah, nope. That dude hasn't ready many stories outside of his niche.
 
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