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The Alt-Right Playbook: How to Radicalize a Normie
- Thread starter Veelk
- Start date
Full of cis people telling trans folx we're wrong, of course. We're not.
Great video, I feel like I could have been a potential Gabe in the early 2000s (when I was down on life and in my 20s), but the alt-right hadn't mobilized online enough to effectively reach me. I'd like to think my rationale would have prevented any sort of radicalization but I've seen enough people I considered decent go down some deep, dark logic holes in the last decade when they're desperate and confused. I think the old place helped in some regards but that was a different time and the exodus to Resetera makes even more sense in the context of the video.
Natalie Wynn is no bigot. I don't agree with any perceived endorsement of bigots from her corner, but I also don't have time for reactionary canceling.
I brought her up as someone I personally admire for her ability to bridge a gap that most people at this polarized moment in US politics don't even attempt to cross. You're supplying a textbook example of the approach that raises people's hackles, ruins dialogue, burns bridges between allies, and entrenches opponents across the ideological divide.
It's possible to criticize problematic actions without dismissing a brilliant resource like the ContraPoints channel.
Similiar thoughts, but it's important to remember that members here as aggressive as they can be, have very few places they can go and that the gaming community as a whole is one that early on was radicalized. They've also been aware of this stuff for almost 5 years now and it's easy for them to jump to the conclusion that everyone has shared their expierence combating the worst of the web.
Video was great, but I do hate how it frames this as a left vs alr right thing, when reality its a let, centrist, and right thing vs the alt right. I don't consider myself a leftist, and if anything center left. But you don't need to be left to stand up against this level of toxicity and call out racism, bigotry and scapegoating of minorities or movements. Those are logical and normal things everyone should do regardless of their difference of policy.
That said, everything else in the video was really greatly laid out as how these tactics work to radicalize people.
I've always wondered. There's so many of these sites that radicalize people and in comparison very little that offer a genuine helpful place for seemingly vulnerable people (dude just wants to talk about his weird hobby, or their weird social hangup, etc etc). Is there a problem on our end of this kind of stuff? I know there are helpful forums out there but are they doing something wrong to push these people away or something?
You know I really wonder if we watched the same video. He directly said that a space like Era can't be a holding space to de-radicalize people.
Communities don't radicalize people by having moderation. Not having moderation, not having a strong community identity where bigotry has no space to grow. These are the things that lead to communities becoming breading grounds for radicalization.
Communities don't radicalize people by having moderation. Not having moderation, not having a strong community identity where bigotry has no space to grow. These are the things that lead to communities becoming breading grounds for radicalization.
Yes but era bad and you are no better than nazis cuz you don't welcome former(?) bigots who can't stop themself from derailing thread.
Bottom text.
The problem on our end is we are being asked to almost tolerate the intolerable. Even if one of these "Gabes" rehabilitates themselves or is in the process of being radicalized, I wonder how keen people would be on associating with them knowing they have the history that they do. I mean here is this person who is being openly racist, conspiratorial or misogynist within a fandom, lets take Star Wars for example, someone is hating on Finn for being the "token black guy". Even if they change their tune later, would you really want to socialize with them despite that?
That's the big issue for the left at the moment, finding a way to bury the emotion of the question "hey, he/she may not act like it now, but they used to be a massive asshole. How can I trust this person?", because turning these people away from returning to some semblence of "normal" doesn't seem like a good outcome to me. It is counter productive and vindictive.
Strange, because you decided to initially dismiss the issue on her hosting Buck Angel by jumping in with:
No one was cancelling anyone. The issue had just been flagged and was starting to be discussed. Yet you still felt the need to hand-wave it as looking for things to be upset about.
So apparently it's not possible to discuss legitimate problems without other people telling you you're both cancelling Natalie and that it's over nothing.
I think it's poor you tell trans people their approach is the one that gets people's backs up after having hand-waved the issues trans people do have within a few posts of them being raised.
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Oooooh, you should definitely watch his videos on the origins of conservatism and the "always a bigger fish" one too. It should clear up why he has very little faith in liberalism/conservatism when it comes to fascism.
Your disingenuous shit ain't enough for one thread? There are pages and pages in the other thread making it PLAINLY OBVIOUS that critiques of Natalie do not signal an intent to "cancel" her. Because of that, all this position you've staked is doing is to deny NB people the opportunity to rightfully critique her.
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I think you are always going to find people who are more socially isolated to be more apt to fall victim to this stuff, and people who are better adjusted will not fall for it as they have life expierence and exposure beyond the 4 walls of their room to draw expierence from, and share part of their life with.
I always felt the gaming community was always vulnerable to this stuff in an unsolvable way, because games and isolation from the real world give people who have problems to retreat into. These people are also going to be likely more white and middle class, simply because the monetary investment to invest in equipment and games is significant, as is the time to really get involved, something that minority groups and low income people, just don't have as much of.
I'm extremely privileged in that I've always had the ability to devote time to my hobbies, let it be due to parents having money when I was young, able to go to college and graduate, not having to ever be turned down by a job due to racism or racist problems within it, etc. But I've also had the advantage of being well adjusted socially and both by having a diverse group of friends, and my family being jewish could never have been pulled into these radical holes. But other people especially in rural areas where they don't have the exposure to others, or a family heritage effected by the dangers of bigotry can easily take a different path.
I believe I've seen the bigger fish one, but my problem with it is that while complacency leads to the rise of this stuff, you don't need to be leftist to combat it. Many republicans themselves opposed it, but they were no match for the fervor their base had been pushed to over years of acceptance of radical views. Everything Trump Touches dies by Rick WIlson goes into it quite a bit, as he himself acknowledges he and some of the campaigns he helped with helped create this monster of a party.
Conservatism (the American version) especially will always be rooted in racism, and it's extremely easy for racism to thrive in a system that wants to conserve elements of a status quo, in our case one which is riddled with racism. But it requires real leaders and not the spineless shits we have like Lindsey Graham and Romney. Both Arnold Schwarzenegger, and Rick Wilson are what I'd like to see the leaders of the Republican party be like, and even Kasich while dumb as rocks, seems to have his morals and heart in the right place. Not that it excuses his shit positions, or I'd hold him as a model republican, more like people like him should be an example of what the worst ones should be.
I think allies like those 3 mentioned are what is needed more than everyone swinging left. I also like Mayor Pete for that reason. Very aware of racism and it's long term effects on society, very aware of how bigotry can impact people, and very aware of how systems need to change to combat it. All without taking left positions like M4A, trying to shut down certain industries, being pro interventionist. You don't need to be left to be doing the right thing.
That said, I do want to check out his videos, so I'll be sure to comment back on any changes in my thoughts or takeaways from the other videos you mentioned.
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That's cause people sympathetic to or are white supremacists happen to be in the authorities like the police and FBI.
Recently a film by Chris Morris came out called The Day Shall Come inspired by FBI's ridiculous efforts to make extremists.
This is honestly a conundrum, because you can't effectively distinguish an early stage Gabe from an alt-right asshole trying to colonize your community. The latter will always try to look innocuous enough, asking questions and raising concerns, and if you entertain them, you'll just be trolled to death in a discussion where they get to repeat and lay out all their talking points again and again. This is magnified if there are several bad faith actors in the same thread, reinforcing each other, and ultimately forming their consensus.
To put it differently, the line is very thin between deradicalizing an impressionable mind that genuinely doesn't know better and platforming the alt-right.
I think a lot of us realized this, and the existential threat it is to a community, when it manifested so massively in the early days of gamergate, and how fluid the consensus was, thanks to assholes pushing very specific narratives to blur lines. The old place is also a testament to that. I very rarely visit it, but from what I can see, all the far right bugs have nested in that hollowed out shell. The management courting them doesn't help, but all the assholes were ready to move in in the first place.
Very comprehensive video on the subject and it seems hes covered a lot more. I was wondering where I recognized this guys voice and editing style and its the guy who made one of my favourite but now kind of outdated videos (on a very different subject) which is kind of ironic with how era reinforces each others beliefs on that subject to the point of regurgitating misinformation.
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Pretty damn good video.
I'll echo what people here have said about this being a safe place for marginalized groups rather than a place for people who may have radicalized beliefs to gain a second chance. I'll admit that for the longest time, I've always been the devil's advocate, at least in the sense that "hey maybe this guy is just ignorant or what-have-you, so let's go with a shorter ban and maybe they'll understand why it was bad." I've unfortunately been proven wrong more times than I'd care to admit.
As someone who was conservative/republican up through about halfway through college (this was about 15 years ago...yes I'm showing my age) I don't think I'd ever end up as far down the rabbit hole as Gabe, but I would definitely share some of the beliefs - thankfully I met some people that clued me into being a moron. There's no point in having such hatred for people who've done nothing wrong, especially if the "wrong" they are accused of doing is *existing*.
We have a fair amount of members that show up and say certain things that are horrible, but may be presented in ways that are not overtly awful. It's difficult to determine intent over the Internet, so if you see us ever going "lightly" on something, please just know that it's a judgment call with hope behind it and nothing sinister. We all understand the concepts of concern trolling and gaslighting, but again - sometimes it's hard to tell until there are repeat examples.
I do still tend to hope for the best in people, but in this day and age it's really difficult to expect the best outcome.
I'll echo what people here have said about this being a safe place for marginalized groups rather than a place for people who may have radicalized beliefs to gain a second chance. I'll admit that for the longest time, I've always been the devil's advocate, at least in the sense that "hey maybe this guy is just ignorant or what-have-you, so let's go with a shorter ban and maybe they'll understand why it was bad." I've unfortunately been proven wrong more times than I'd care to admit.
As someone who was conservative/republican up through about halfway through college (this was about 15 years ago...yes I'm showing my age) I don't think I'd ever end up as far down the rabbit hole as Gabe, but I would definitely share some of the beliefs - thankfully I met some people that clued me into being a moron. There's no point in having such hatred for people who've done nothing wrong, especially if the "wrong" they are accused of doing is *existing*.
We have a fair amount of members that show up and say certain things that are horrible, but may be presented in ways that are not overtly awful. It's difficult to determine intent over the Internet, so if you see us ever going "lightly" on something, please just know that it's a judgment call with hope behind it and nothing sinister. We all understand the concepts of concern trolling and gaslighting, but again - sometimes it's hard to tell until there are repeat examples.
I do still tend to hope for the best in people, but in this day and age it's really difficult to expect the best outcome.
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Enjoyed the video and think he has a pretty good hypothesis.
Can't be done to help Gabe so much as it is to help the minority members of the community.
Wouldn't engage Gabe in any discourse whatsoever, if it was only to help him.
Waste of time/energy
Can't be done to help Gabe so much as it is to help the minority members of the community.
Wouldn't engage Gabe in any discourse whatsoever, if it was only to help him.
Waste of time/energy
I would get into a discussion in response to this but I don't think I'm allowed to criticize the mod team openly. Is this the case or is it not?
I mean you have my discord name so feel free to yell at me there if you want to yell at me
Even back before Gamergate, I had a gaming forum I helped run and... THIS. I was a stupid 16 year old too proud to realize some of the twenty-somethings I was dealing with weren't acting in good faith and were, in point of fact, quite fuckin' racist. Eventually they booted out most of the people who wouldn't put up with their bullshit, and combined with my admitted mismanagement the place died.
The video was very good, but I would just correct the belief that Nazis went online around 2013, they were online decades before that. Historian Kathleen Belew actually has done very important research into the Nazi/white power movement specifically focusing on the late 1970s-1990s. White power movements had a way of communicating with each other very early on. These people who are actually fully in the white supremacist movements were and I assume still are, very organized.
High ranking members of the KKK and the Nazi/former Nazi youth member were using their own computer network to communicate with each other in the early to mid 1980s.
Then websites like Stormfront have been around since the early 90s, I don't think it can be understated how far ahead they have been to the resistance movements, unfortunately.
I would strongly recommend that anyone who wants to know more about this to look up Kathleen Belew because her research on this is pretty eye opening.
High ranking members of the KKK and the Nazi/former Nazi youth member were using their own computer network to communicate with each other in the early to mid 1980s.
Then websites like Stormfront have been around since the early 90s, I don't think it can be understated how far ahead they have been to the resistance movements, unfortunately.
I would strongly recommend that anyone who wants to know more about this to look up Kathleen Belew because her research on this is pretty eye opening.
I think he's making the distinction between online and Extremely Online
Well, certainly it's gained prominence and somehow become more socially acceptable with the anti"SJW" garbage and youtube being just a really easy resource for people to use which can unfortunately also include white supremacist propaganda.
I have to say his clips in this video with Pewdiepie in particular were really well done.
This is spot on and there are some points that have changed some of my mindsets on things, but everything I pretty much agreed with. Although I would add that I still believe shouting at a Gabe and telling them they're a bigot and subhuman trash probably will push them further into the onion rather than out of it and a more constructive method of communication to challenge mindsets is preferable.
There have been a few times where I've been accused of arguing in bad faith, when I was actually, ACTUALLY, just asking questions. I'm Dutch, so I grew up with Black Pete (with blackface), with the initial idea that Black Pete wasn't racist because -insert ignorant and outdated views here-.
Not being banned, and people actually taking the time to have a conversation with me changed my mind on Black Pete.
However, I have no idea how many people actually argue in bad faith, how many people ask questions to actually learn things, and how you're supposed to make that distinction as an admin.
Also, I'm glad (some) people were a bit patient with me, explained and changed my mind. Aside from the people saying; "you support blackface, you're racist and you want me, and people like me dead. FOH." Which is, and was, not the case.
I'm glad that you were able to understand the issues there, but it can be difficult for those who feel like they have to give that explanation on a daily basis to people that just don't get it - frankly I don't blame them but I'm glad you were able to understand :)
There are good points on both sides of this argument. I think ERA has to constantly be vigilant not allowing bad faith actors to infiltrate and transform the community, in order to keep it a safe space for open and tolerant people. On the other hand, there have been threads I've read where (at least to me) mere misunderstandings got posters piled upon. It is sometimes difficult to know whether someone is posting in bad faith, so I get that there's the urge to not give the benefit of the doubt, and bad faith posters can try to use the benefit of the doubt as a shield. But I think there is a kind of bad faith posting on the other side as well, and that is shredding someone to morally feel superior. And that doesn't only affect the person being shredded, but possibly a lot of lurkers. That comes with the fact that ERA is a public forum.
In the end, I value ERA more as a safe space, and maybe there's no way around being vigilant sometimes means people get undeserved flack over misunderstandings.
Alright but here's the thing: Fuck Gabe.
Gabe is responsible for his actions. He's responsible for the communities he hangs around, because he can always choose to leave at any time. People telling Gabe what kind of person he's allowing himself to be, particularly people vulnerable to the kind of rhetoric Gabe's parroting or enabling, aren't to blame for Gabe choosing to push himself further into the onion when they tell him to go fuck himself. If Gabe's actions hurt other people and incite pushback, he should be able to reevaluate them himself.
How much responsibility do people have to challenge Gabe's mindset when the mindset in question rejects basic fucking empathy? Do we need to put the Gabes through preschool again?
I don't blame them either. Nobody is obligated to take the time of day to do that again and again. Nor do I blame the guy who thought: you support blackface? fuck off. I can see how experiencing racism can get you to think that. But if people hadn't explained to me what the effect on them was, it would've been VERY hard to counteract the years and years of tradition and upbringing, which only showed Black Pete in a joyful and capable way. And which entirely handwaved away the more problematic aspects. So it's cool people made me less ignorant, but it's not anyone's job to do it. So. Conundrum. Well actually, the effort is up to me.
I'm sorry but it's just not as simple as that. Perhaps later in life you have some agency over what communities you belong to, but you have no say over your upbringing and the effects it has on you. Over the effects society en large have over you. If you grow up in a conservative household, with Fox News on 24 hours a day telling you how black people are lazy and only good for black on black crime it takes a LOT of effort and energy to change that view. You can't just say; I say this and people tell me to go fuck myself. Hmm, I'll just think and behave like this instead. That's just not how the human mind works. If people are taught one thing by Fox News, they have to be taught the opposite by something/one else. And also, how the human mind DOES work, is responding with a fuck you to, if people tell you to fuck of.
As for how much responsibility people have to change Gabe's mindset? As I said above, noone really has, except Gabe himself. But it's pretty difficult for Gabe to teach himself shit he doesn't know.
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This is a huge issue that's just going to keep compounding over the coming years, too. There aren't enough leftist spaces on the internet because basically no one is willing to put in the work to de-radicalize these people. And you can't really blame anyone for not wanting to put in the footwork either, because it's such a toxic environment. But if nothing changes the end result is going to be an internet filled with right wing spaces, and a few leftist spaces constantly shouting IT'S NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY as the internet burns around them.
I think if you're a progressive parent you don't have much to worry about. Instill them with good values and discuss the issues of the day in an age-appropriate way. The reason people like "Gabe" exist is because they are white and male and grow up in a politically centrist white household where politics isn't discussed, creating a politically apathetic teenager/twentysomething who learns his political values from Nazis on the internet instead of his family.
Well, maybe it would be better if we didn't throw around the terms racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe as fast as we sometimes have, but instead calmly but firmly respond to questionable posts. That would not only have a better result with the (assuming good faith) poster but also people who are only lurking.
Especially posts fishing for a bad faith posters real motivations can look pretty bad and aggressive when they don't bite.
Yeah. We've slowly started with my son, it's just one more avenue of danger we need to arm them against.
I think there are some valid criticisms of how members on ERA deal with ignorant or misguided views at times, but there is a certain distrust out there now as ERA has become a target of the dividers mentioned in the OP's video. It may sound a bit paranoid, but ERA is a public left-of-center forum and at any given time there are more members joining with the explicit purpose of causing chaos and trying to divide and peel off members from the community into these radicalized off-shoots.
With that said, I think ERA is a good example of a leftist space trying to do its best with actually taking responsibility. It isn't one cohesive hivemind that gets everything correct all the time, but it is trying to improve and promote proper values whenever it can. I think it has certainly made me a more purposeful and thoughtful human and for that, I am forever grateful.
OP
OP
Again, it isn't left's responsibility. Even the video that sparked this discussion says as much.
More importantly, it says that the Gabe's of the world wouldn't be that important if we were able to fix the bigger things going on. Global warming, corperate power, toxic masculinity, etc, those are the real problems.
If those things were fixed, not only would we have less Gabes we need to fix (since those are the initial conditions that produce Gabe's), but the Gabe's that do exist wouldn't be a problem since without having those issues to blame on minorities and leftists, we'd have better means of preventing alt-right from taking any kind of action, like Gun regulation or policing white supremacy as terrorism.
GABE IS A MINOR SYMPTOM OF A LARGER SOCIETAL PROBLEM
So this narrative that it's our job to save Gabe's? No. It'd be a nice thing to do and we should do it if we can, but it's not mandatory and it wouldn't be effective as a solution if it was.
Also unsurprisingly this thread has been derailed into metacommentary on the purpose of ResetERA.
The argument in this video is not that online communities like ERA should become deradicalization centers for bigots. As the video explains, due to the extremely deceptive and bad-faith nature of the alt-right, it is impossible to tell if a new member of your community is actually looking to learn or simply an infiltrator looking to further destabilize and radicalize your members.
Instead, the better conduit for deradicalization is people who know "Gabe" in real life, who have a better understanding of his personality and motivations and can see his true heart better than people who know him only as text on a computer screen.
The argument in this video is not that online communities like ERA should become deradicalization centers for bigots. As the video explains, due to the extremely deceptive and bad-faith nature of the alt-right, it is impossible to tell if a new member of your community is actually looking to learn or simply an infiltrator looking to further destabilize and radicalize your members.
Instead, the better conduit for deradicalization is people who know "Gabe" in real life, who have a better understanding of his personality and motivations and can see his true heart better than people who know him only as text on a computer screen.
One thing I'm wondering about this video: he makes the process sound like a great alt-right plan, and maybe it is now.
But to me it feels way more like it is something that slowly developed by pure chance. How 4chan changed, how Youtube changed, how real life politics changed, how social media and bots developed etc. And that's why it is so hard to explain and break. There is no central planning. Just actors profiting off of broken humans and broken systems.
But to me it feels way more like it is something that slowly developed by pure chance. How 4chan changed, how Youtube changed, how real life politics changed, how social media and bots developed etc. And that's why it is so hard to explain and break. There is no central planning. Just actors profiting off of broken humans and broken systems.
OP
OP
Yeah. We have so many people outright ridiculing the idea that Era isn't responsible for making Gabe into a better person that I wonder if those themselves aren't infiltrators.
I'm open to the idea of making a thread specifically discussing Gabe's in a nonjudgemental way where posters have more leeway and get more benefit of the doubt for the purpose of rehabilitating those posters.
But other than that, no. I want this conversational point to die. There's no reasonable way we can be considered for nazi's not being nazi's.