The Anti-Anime "Left" is Garbage and Here's Why (Don't Let the Alt-right Claim Anime +Stuff About Orientalism)

[Deleted member 11413]

That is really bad. Especially the Ivy thing.

I get your point but I disagree on how the mainstream media is compared to anime. In anime we see tenfolds of what you described to me from Gotham and worse. Like others said, in anime some stuff in anime would be outright outrageous if it was aired on TV. Remember that TV show about alternative history in the US about the south winning? We didn't even know how it would have been done and yet people we outraged at it and rightfully so. Now compared to the recent slave trend we are seeing these days it seems like it is accepted in the anime industry. There is a huge difference between the reactions in both mediums.

On your other points about some of the other reprehensible stuff that comes from the western media, I agree with you. But at least it isn't made professionally (it still sucks that it exists) but we never see it become mainstream unlike anime.

In any case, I feel like trying to reclaim anime from the alt right needs to be done from within Japan itself and we can't really do anything about it.

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For every problematic show that gets people outraged, there are many more that never got widespread criticism, or were extremely popular despite criticism. Sure, you are totally right that mainstream media with slavery being portrayed in a positive light would generate a lot of outrage in the US (as it should), largely because of this country's history with slavery. Yet our media has no problem portraying our disgusting prison industrial complex and justice system positively, which functions as a modern slavery equivalent, and makes prison rape a common joke. Furthermore, media like Fifty Shades of Grey is very, very similar to this 'positive, sexy slave/master dynamic' you are seeing in some Isekai shows, and while that book & film series did generate a lot of criticism, it also sold very well and was very popular.

Again, not trying to engage in a whataboutism here, more taking issue with the idea that the majority of western audiences will be outraged by the kinds of ideas espoused in anime. I'm skeptical because those ideas ARE present in a lot of our media and no one bats an eye, because it's packaged slightly differently.

I'm willing to bet that you're wrong on this as far as a presentation level goes. I saw your example, and while the tropes are same and similarly awful, similar tropes is not what i mean by the word "execution". The "gaze" of anime and the framing of anime in particular is what I'm pointing to.

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Depends entirely on what specific anime we are talking about. Gotham is worse than many anime, but maybe not worse than all of them...but it's also not the worst example from western media either, it's just a currently running network TV show with similarly problematic themes and execution of those themes. I don't think the "gaze" and framing of Gotham are that different from some problematic anime.

Edit: Just saw your edit, yeah I get what you are talking about in regards to the visceral nature of anime.

 

[Pau]

Are there anime where the main character wants to go home? I can only think of Digimon. Is Digimon isekai?

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Vision of Escaflowne.

Spoiler

It even ends with her deciding to go back home instead of staying with the guy she loves.

 

[TickleMeElbow]

Like with many things, it exists somewhere in the middle, of course.

My take (and please, I encourage you to correct me if I'm wrong) has always been that Japan has many great people who live in a society that is both wonderful in many different ways than ours (which are then heavily romanticized and/or fetishized, often to the point of stereotype), horrible in a great many others, but is a country that is terribly resistant to change in ways that people of other countries just can't fathom, which is why it has stayed more repressive, misogynistic and ethno-centric than even its own people seem to want it to be most of the time.

As you can tell from the end of the previous sentence, I don't fault the average Japanese person for that. I imagine that, regardless of what the populous desires, North America and Europe wouldn't be anywhere near where it is now and would still be stuck somewhere before or during the 1970s culture war (with all the ugliness that goes with that) if we had our backward-as-shit older generations living as long as Japan's will, given the country frequently has one of the highest life expectancies in the world. And so long as they do and they control the policy, cultural product and overall norms of society with an iron fist, things are going to move slower than people will want, especially when two of the cultural norms expected of you are not rocking the boat and maintaining formality.

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Of course Japan has problems as does every country, but I get the feeling that people use a bunch of examples from anime, that most Japanese people don't even watch, to highlight how backwards, strange, and weird Japanese people are. Well if that's true, what does it say about the West that these niche cartoons are increasing in popularity here? When I moved back to the US from Japan I had a bunch of kids asking me about anime I've never seen or heard of. You know how many times people have asked me if I watch tentacle porn lol? I don't go around randomly asking Americans if they like watching prolapsed asshole porn.

Another thing is if the entire genre is so shit on a fundamental level (and like I mentioned in another comment, anime = cartoons in Japan. My mom considers Looney Toons "anime" lol), enough so that just mentioning it conjures a negative image of Japan, why are Western studios making live action adaptations and replacing everyone with white people lol?

 

[Deleted member 23212]

Personally, I think that we should try to claim anime not because of anything inherent to it, but because if we do there's potential that many who watch anime can associate with people who lean on the left and thus get exposed/become sympathetic to those views. Because what I've seen is right-wing people taking advantage of fandoms' loneliness and desire to belong and harbouring that to promote right-wing views.

 

[Deleted member 5596]

Unfortunately it's true, those guys are everywhere. But it shouldn't make people avoid some great stuff like Kaiji and Monster.

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I watched Monster and Mushishi, but these shows are years old..

The most egregious example from Gotham is that they took a 12 or so year old Poison Ivy, introduced a minor character who has a power to rapidly age the bodies of people solely to set up a scenario in which said character grabs Ivy for a split second, aging her into her early 20s while she still has the mind of a child. Then proceeds to sexualize the hell out of her and putting her in tons of situations where she is unwittingly pursued by men and 'seduces' them without fully understanding what she's doing, and plays this for laughs.

Now this is on top of all of the extremely sexualized female characters in the show, like Tabitha, or taking characters that were previously not sexualized and then sexualizing them because they broke up with the main character, like Barbera and Morena Baccarin's character. Portrayal of mental illness is horrible in the show, damsel in distress stuff, etc.

The show has some positives too, but it's got a lot of problems.

I would agree with you there, the fact that the medium is animated let's them get away with a lot more, the same is true of western animation as well. And anime absolutely has very specific problems. All I'm saying is that those same problems are often present in mainstream western media, even if it's not as immediately obvious.

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The level of sexualization and male gaze is laughable compared to what anime shows constantly do, specially minors. Not to talk that the Ivy stuff it happens on anime too.

I don't think no one looks at Gotham and thinks it doesn't have issues. But call me when a western shows fetishist tentacle monsters sexually assaulting minors.

 

[Skyball Paint]

Imagine defending Shield Hero with trash like this:

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Imagine wanting to delete shows because you think people are children and the only shows they should be allowed to see are ones that promote “good” values.

 

[TickleMeElbow]

I watched Monster and Mushishi, but these shows are years old..

The level of sexualization and male gaze is laughable compared to what anime shows constantly do, specially minors. Not to talk that the Ivy stuff it happens on anime too.

I don't think no one looks at Gotham and thinks it doesn't have issues. But call me when a western shows fetishist tentacle monsters sexually assaulting minors.

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You think they show tentacle porn on Japanese TV?

 

[Deleted member 11413]

I watched Monster and Mushishi, but these shows are years old..

The level of sexualization and male gaze is laughable compared to what anime shows constantly do, specially minors. Not to talk that the Ivy stuff it happens on anime too.

I don't think no one looks at Gotham and thinks it doesn't have issues. But call me when a western shows fetishist tentacle monsters sexually assaulting minors.

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That post was in response to the idea that the kinds of things you see in anime would not fly in mainstream western TV, which is why I brought up Gotham in the first place. "It happens in anime too" was the point.

As far as fetish tentacle stuff goes...yeah that's specifically a Japanese thing, and it's also not prevalent in the vast majority of anime. If we were talking about hentai, then sure, but that's an entirely different thing.

 

[SquirrelSr]

Reading through this thread it's pretty disturbing many users are defending shield hero.

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Reminds me of the Angry Jack part of the Alt-Right Handbook.

All they said was "No thanks. I don't drink". But that doesn't matter. What you heard was "You're a bad person".

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[Deleted member 5596]

That post was in response to the idea that the kinds of things you see in anime would not fly in mainstream western TV, which is why I brought up Gotham in the first place. "It happens in anime too" was the point.

As far as fetish tentacle stuff goes...yeah that's specifically a Japanese thing, and it's also not prevalent in the vast majority of anime. If we were talking about hentai, then sure, but that's an entirely different thing.

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Is prevalent enough in non-hentai to be a thing.

The thing is that Ivy in Gotham has been recasted...again and basically reseted the character. That dosn't solve the problems with the character, but it's clearly that it was a thing that raised a lot of eyebrows and critique too and had a reaction from the producers part.

You think they show tentacle porn on Japanese TV?

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Yes, I do

Multiple times yes

(NFSW obviously)

"Embracing" is just the same thing the right has been doing for a century now - bringing the political discussion right into other spaces. If the left keeps hiding in their towers and being disgusted by anything that isn't pure, it's the left's fault, not the media's fault. And that's why we had the right egemonize the nerd culture, which should've been the perfect place for the left to grow since it strongly resonates with marginalized people. Most "nerds" are victims of toxic masculinity, and patriarchy from higher ups has been pushing out women from the space. Instead, all romantic comedies and sitcoms feature shit tropes where the nerds always get the girl or the guy is rewarded for being a creepy asshole; that's what people actually watch. We're going to pretend that cult shows are the norm, but they're not.

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I don't think that criticizing the romanticism with slavery or the fetishism of rape that several of those anime have is hiding on Ebony towers of pure light. Is basically defending not trash behaviours. Most nerds are vicitms of toxic masculinity and patriarchy (I'm gonna indulge in that thought, but I don't really agree), but the bigger victims aren't them, are women around the world.

Another thing that I want to raise, is that Gamergate and Comicgate didn't happen because the left, it was a pushback from people started to question and inquiring in a lot of the problems in these mediums, and both creators and publishers started hearing and tackling these issues. This is were it started, we would be good in remembering.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

Is prevalent enough in non-hentai to be a thing.

The thing is that Ivy in Gotham has been recasted...again and basically reseted the character. That dosn't solve the problems with the character, but it's clearly that it was a thing that raised a lot of eyebrows and critique too and had a reaction from the producers part.



Yes, I do

Multiple times yes

(NFSW obviously)

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They ran with the plotline I was talking about for an entire season, and the show still engages in blatant sexualization of Ivy and the majority of the female cast. This season Ivy basically came onto teenage Bruce when he was trying to help Selena, and that entire plot point revolves around how Ivy and Selena were friends who looked out for eachother as kids onthe streets, she's still the same character with the same origins, recasting which sexy redhead plays her doesn't change any of that. The show is basically a harem anime with the way half of the female characters are love interests for Jim Gordon who never really get over him.

 

[Deleted member 19066]

Reminds me of the Angry Jack part of the Alt-Right Handbook.

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This generally works, but it doesn't always apply when people try to actually try to augur someone's value system based on a piece of media they consume. I've literally seen someone argue "how do you know for sure playing DOA Xtreme Volleyball hasn't subconsciously made you more misogynistic?" This is an internet forum. People are judgemental and unreasonable no matter what their ethics are, its just that those on the side of social justice (ostensibly) are given a pass because it's assumed their heart is in the right place.

 

[Deleted member 5596]

They ran with the plotline I was talking about for an entire season, and the show still engages in blatant sexualization of Ivy and the majority of the female cast. This season Ivy basically came onto teenage Bruce when he was trying to help Selena, and that entire plot point revolves around how Ivy and Selena were friends who looked out for eachother as kids onthe streets, she's still the same character with the same origins, recasting which sexy redhead plays her doesn't change any of that. The show is basically a harem anime with the way half of the female characters are love interests for Jim Gordon who never really get over him.

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Again, the show has problems, no one is denying that. But if that's the worse thing you can find on western TV shows, then is just laughable with what you find on harem anime shows....

 

[Deleted member 11413]

Again, the show has problems, no one is denying that. But if that's the worse thing you can find on western TV shows, then is just laughable with what you find on harem anime shows....

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Who ever said it's the worst thing? I brought it up specifically because so many elements of that show mirror the kind of things that bother people with anime in response to the idea that "the stuff that flies in anime wouldn't fly in western TV", not because it is the worst example of western media. There are worse shows.

 

[TickleMeElbow]

Yes, I do

Multiple times yes

(NFSW obviously).

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Lol I've never seen those in my life.

I thought it was going to be actual tentacle porn, but I can see what you're getting at.

 

[Wein Cruz]

Whoa, y'all weren't kidding. That's... something else.

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It's okay cuz like the show has a bunch of interesting ideas you just got to get over this teeny tiny little problematic aspect of it.

 

[Deleted member 32561]

The fact there are people still trying to defend Shield Hero itt is.... Whooooooooo. Missing the point.

Instead point to the shows that are categorically unproblematic/less problematic than Western shows- i.e. the top eleven anime in the AotY topic linked earlier. A year that, again, featured a number of non-fetishistic LGBT positive shows, and even a show featuring an autistic main character.

Edit: I also feel like that's an issue with the video. It's unfocused. We're having like three separate discussions in here based on the three different if connected subjects the video talks about- that supposed progressives judging Japanese culture via popular anime among otaku is borderline racist; that there are in fact numerous anime with progressive themes or that are non-objectionable; and that we should not let the alt-right steal away a marginalized-people-forged community because the pandery shit they love is suddenly popular. I'd argue each point deserves it's own video and topic.

 

[Skyball Paint]

Reminds me of the Angry Jack part of the Alt-Right Handbook.

“All they said was "No thanks. I don't drink". But that doesn't matter. What you heard was "You're a bad person".

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this is the most galaxy brain take on something that's an incel power fantasy (note: does not mean "literally powerful as a character") focused on getting revenge through slavery in a world filled with caricatures designed to reinforce the incel worldview and justify said slavery. It really shows your true colors that you think there's anything redeemable here

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People are straight-up calling other members bad people for liking Shield Hero, what are you on about?

 

[Kitsunelaine]

People are straight-up calling other members bad people for liking Shield Hero, what are you on about?

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Shield Hero is not just "a show" to "like". It's a manifesto in audio-visual form. You can't take the bad shit from it and enjoy it for your own reasons. It's not one of the shows where that act is even possible imo. To say you're doing that is to make a statement on what you personally are able to tolerate and let slide, in return for something utterly vapid and worthless that you can get elsewhere without forcing yourself to like this show.

Yes. To me, you're a bad person if you like Shield Hero.

 

[Mesoian]

Shield Hero is not just "a show" to "like". It's a manifesto in audio-visual form. You can't take the bad shit from it and enjoy it for your own reasons.

Yes. To me, you're a bad person if you like Shield Hero.

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This is a lot.

 

[Kitsunelaine]

This is a lot.

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That's how repulsive the show is.

 

[Deleted member 5596]

Who ever said it's the worst thing? I brought it up specifically because so many elements of that show mirror the kind of things that bother people with anime in response to the idea that "the stuff that flies in anime wouldn't fly in western TV", not because it is the worst example of western media. There are worse shows.

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I'm pretty sure that Gotham dosn't feature panty shots, bouncing tits, etc...there's different levels of sexualization. I don't think Gotham or any other show "mirrors" that.

 

[Mesoian]

That's how repulsive the show is.

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I mean, I'm not going to question your opinion on this because you're set in it.

All I'll say is that that's an awfully large swath of people you're condemning due to pop media adjuration.

 

[Kitsunelaine]

I mean, I'm not going to question your opinion on this because you're set in it.

All I'll say is that that's an awfully large swath of people you're condemning due to pop media adjuration.

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It's an awfully large number of people I'm perfectly fine dismissing completely. Because it's not just about "pop media". That's a disengenuous breakdown. It's not like liking Call of Duty for the overenthusiastic military jingoism or liking Transformers even though that franchise treats women terribly.

You have to be a certain kind of person to like Shield Hero. A kind of person who's forgiving to the manifesto the show is presenting. And fuck. That.

 

[mael]

I guess there's a reason I'm a manga reader and not an anime fan!
And dear god am I glad I stopped watching Gotham.
I think outside of Jump related animes and Gundam I'm done with anime.
I mean outside of your average animated movie like Your Name.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

Shield Hero is not just "a show" to "like". It's a manifesto in audio-visual form. You can't take the bad shit from it and enjoy it for your own reasons. It's not one of the shows where that act is even possible imo. To say you're doing that is to make a statement on what you personally are able to tolerate and let slide.

Yes. To me, you're a bad person if you like Shield Hero.

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If you care about reaching people who grew up consuming anime and are blind or accepting of the problematic aspects of it, this is not the way to do it. That's an impossible standard when the majority of anime fans have this stuff normalized to them before they are even adults.

I'm pretty sure that Gotham dosn't feature panty shots, bouncing tits, etc...there's different levels of sexualization. I don't think Gotham or any other show "mirrors" that.

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Yeah, because it's live action and is on network television, which has strict content requirements in terms of whatyou can show on screen and yet they still managed to fill the show with problematic content. You are still missing the point. Being on network television in the US gives it a bigger audience than 90% of anime.

We can talk about Showtime and Cinemax if you want, since that's a closer analogue to late night anime.

 

[Kitsunelaine]

f you care about reaching people who grew consuming anime and are blind or accepting of the problematic aspects of it, this is not the way to do it.

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I'm not going to mince words describing my feelings about people who love incel slavery revenge fantasy. It's not my job to educate people who do.

 

[Deleted member 19066]

That's how repulsive the show is.

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Well now I've gotta at least read the manga. :p Even Goblin Slayer was just generic video game fantasy wrapped in rape-sploitation.

 

[CatSoul]

Shield Hero is not just "a show" to "like". It's a manifesto in audio-visual form. You can't take the bad shit from it and enjoy it for your own reasons. It's not one of the shows where that act is even possible imo.

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How can you condemn a group of people entirely based on what you admit is your own opinion/viewpoint? You can't see how enjoying it is possible, but you're one person coming from one specific background that has formed your viewpoint.

I haven't seen Shield Hero, but I know a fantastic blogger who goes by the handle "Frog_kun" who enjoys the series while also acknowledging its problematic elements.

 

[Deleted member 5596]

If you care about reaching people who grew up consuming anime and are blind or accepting of the problematic aspects of it, this is not the way to do it. That's an impossible standard when the majority of anime fans have this stuff normalized to them before they are even adults.

Yeah, because it's live action and is on network television, which has strict content requirements in terms of whatyou can show on screen and yet they still managed to fill the show with problematic content. You are still missing the point. Being on network television in the US gives it a bigger audience than 90% of anime.

We can talk about Showtime and Cinemax if you want, since that's a closer analogue to late night anime.

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You are very set on equating both media problematic portrayal of sexualization, but you keep falling to do so. The problem is not networks, the problem is that the male gaze that plagues Anime is not mirrowed to the extent of what Anime usually reaches. Find me a Showtime or Cinemax show that reaches To Love Ru levels, and then we can talk.

 

[mael]

I'm not going to mince my feelings about people who love incel slavery revenge fantasy. It's not my job to educate people who do.

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Don't forget, if they're white you have to take time out of your day everyday to redeem them out of their misguided problems.

 

[Kitsunelaine]

How can you condemn a group of people entirely based on what you admit is your own opinion/viewpoint?

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As humans we do this every day. It's quite easy.

 

[Deleted member 32561]

Honestly, I legit don't relate to this thought at all. I find almost every place online or IRL to talk about games is a cesspit of bigoted horseshit so thick that I'd stop talking about them at all if this moderated forum ever closed (and even here, gaming-side is kinda a shitshow).

Under no circumstances do I think "progressive" when I think of gaming historically (like up to this generation, maybe). Anime is kinda the same way for me. I've met enough pervy creeps for 10 lifetimes, and I don't plan on going to anime cons again because of it.

I still partake in the hobbies, but I'm good on the people. Just had way too many bad experiences.

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My point was more that this was meant to be a community for progressive minded people who play games. Believe you me, I've had my fill of disgusting gamers making me feel unwelcome elsewhere. As I said I think gaming really wasn't a progressive fandom in the slightest, but I do feel there was a time when Western anime fandom was far more progressive than the mainstream American culture. It's about the same now, though, from a combination of the mainstream catching up and the media being output making creepy people feel welcome, if not normalized.

I'm also sorry to hear that that's been your experience with cons. Obviously there are problematic elements such as con creeps which need addressing (con circuit and a lot of dub VAs are finally backing up people coming forward about Vic Mignogna being a creep for instance), but by and large to most of LGBT people I've talked to (including myself) they've been far more reaffirming to their identity compared to other spaces were at the time.

That's why I feel like we need to make an effort to keep conservatives/alt-righters and sex creeps out of the collective. It's just something special, to me personally at least, that shouldn't have such elements.

 

[Mesoian]

It's an awfully large number of people I'm perfectly fine dismissing completely. Because it's not just about "pop media". That's a disengenuous breakdown.

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I mean it is though. It's the problem with the popularity of Isekai stories and it's unwillingness to actually attempt anything new because the status quo is popular. Slavery, in almost every example brought up in this thread, isn't used because they're trying to make any sort of real or meaningful commentary on the society within, it's used because it's a shortcut for the protagonist to be surrounded by like-minded people so a team can be formed. I'm not ready to go completely Thermian and say that this is a tacit admission that Slavery is good. It's not, especially in sheild hero where they constantly reaffirm that slavery is bad, but the protagonist is gaming the one system no one else can deal with. That's not abhorrent, it's lazy, and it's a lazy concept that will continue to pop up here and there when story needs to shortcut itself forward in order to save time or deal with power creep.

It's not that the story or the people behind it think slavery is good, it's that they literally don't care about the concept of slavery. And that's...something, surely something not good, but here we are. Condemning fans of the show because they aren't also shitting all over it for it being lazy is disingenuous. Most people going to isekai aren't looking for high fantasy, dare I say, they know exactly what they're getting with a very middling, low brow, easy to understand story that will shortcut it's way into a quick and dirty 26 episodes. I wouldn't condemn those people as being terrible in the same way I wouldn't condemn people who watched 24 with a bated breath, even though that show is just neo-con wank imagery.

The people who are conflating the issue by saying "anime said slavery is good so let's think about whether or not we should back slavery in real life" can get fucked. Those people are missing the point of the very anime they're watching. But let's not go crazy here.

Much like people need to stop identifying their very personalities by what media they choose to consume, we have to be willing to give a bit when someone decides to get excited over some media that has questionable views, else we're just talking about avoiding people who like The Handmaiden's Tale or Game of Thrones, which have some truly abhorrent stuff in them, but are still wildly, globally popular.

 

[Vampirolol]

We shouldn't let them claim anything. Hell, we should unite and fight to take back Pepe the frog. He's a victim.

 

[CatSoul]

As humans we do this every day. It's quite easy.

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Yes, we do make daily judgments—sometimes incorrect ones—about people without getting to know them. However, when it comes to entire, vague groups of people, I don't think we do that every day. We can hate on the alt-right because we have facts and first-hand experiences of how awful they are.

The fact that this group of people you've chosen to condemn watch a cartoon may be a fact, but I don't see how it's worthy of generalizing them all as bad people.

 

[Kitsunelaine]

Slavery, in almost every example brought up in this thread, isn't used because they're trying to make any sort of real or meaningful commentary on the society within, it's used because it's a shortcut for the protagonist to be surrounded by like-minded people so a team can be formed.

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that's just, like, your opinion man

The fact that this group of people you've chosen to condemn watch a cartoon may be a fact, but I don't see how it's worthy of generalizing them all as bad people.

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sometimes the things people are forgiving of and enjoy are directly indicative of their real-world ideologies or their real world apathy which enables people with said ideologies

 

[Mesoian]

that's just, like, your opinion man

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::Sigh:: Okay.

We shouldn't let them claim anything. Hell, we should unite and fight to take back Pepe the frog. He's a victim.

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The original artist tried. I don't remember where that lawsuit ended up, but he spent quite a bit of money to get the proper rights returned to him.

Memes are funny though. Even if he went after the right wing elements using pepe the frog, they probably would still use it.

 

[Deleted member 5596]

I mean it is though. It's the problem with the popularity of Isekai stories and it's unwillingness to actually attempt anything new because the status quo is popular. Slavery, in almost every example brought up in this thread, isn't used because they're trying to make any sort of real or meaningful commentary on the society within, it's used because it's a shortcut for the protagonist to be surrounded by like-minded people so a team can be formed. I'm not ready to go completely Thermian and say that this is a tacit admission that Slavery is good. It's not, especially in sheild hero where they constantly reaffirm that slavery is bad, but the protagonist is gaming the one system no one else can deal with. That's not abhorrent, it's lazy, and it's a lazy concept that will continue to pop up here and there when story needs to shortcut itself forward in order to save time or deal with power creep.

It's not that the story or the people behind it think slavery is good, it's that they literally don't care about the concept of slavery. And that's...something, surely something not good, but here we are. Condemning fans of the show because they aren't also shitting all over it for it being lazy is disingenuous. Most people going to isekai aren't looking for high fantasy, dare I say, they know exactly what they're getting with a very middling, low brow, easy to understand story that will shortcut it's way into a quick and dirty 26 episodes. I wouldn't condemn those people as being terrible in the same way I wouldn't condemn people who watched 24 with a bated breath, even though that show is just neo-con wank imagery.

The people who are conflating the issue by saying "anime said slavery is good so let's think about whether or not we should back slavery in real life" can get fucked. Those people are missing the point of the very anime they're watching. But let's not go crazy here.

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Slavery in those shows/media is beyond lazy, is about enforcing the idea of a "possesion" of females. The women in those works are so in love with the protagonist that they are willing to throw away their freedom to become a possesion of the main character.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

You are very set on equating both media problematic portrayal of sexualization, but you keep falling to do so. The problem is not networks, the problem is that the male gaze that plagues Anime is not mirrowed to the extent of what Anime usually reaches. Find me a Showtime or Cinemax show that reaches To Love Ru levels, and then we can talk.

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Ever seen Spartacus that was on Showtime for a while? You know that Cinemax shows porn late at night, right?

that's just, like, your opinion man



sometimes the things people are forgiving of and enjoy are directly indicative of their real-world ideologies or their real world apathy which enables people with said ideologies

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I'm not going to mince words describing my feelings about people who love incel slavery revenge fantasy. It's not my job to educate people who do.

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Maybe you should consider that its indicative of their own personal trauma and abuse, and an attempt to rationalize what's happened to them or what they've been exposed to from a young age.

 

[Cantaim]

All I know is that Light Novels have been fucking with that “trapped in another world and I have a slave army of women who love being my slave!” shit. And it’s been weirding me out for years. Especially since lots of manga and anime based on light novels come out every year. And it just keeps becoming more and more prevalent in non LN shit.

 

[Mesoian]

Slavery in those shows/media is beyond lazy, is about enforcing the idea of a "possesion" of females. The women in those works are so in love with the protagonist that they are willing to throw away their freedom to become a possesion of the main character.

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I mean, that's just another Isekai problem though. If they didn't have the slavery system, they'd use some other conflated method of having the MC get his harem, be it a lazy guild system or a lazy town building sequence or a lazy deity greeting. It happens in damn near ever one of these things, which is why they're all so damn rote. None of these stories in any of their forms, anime, manga, light novel, are interested in putting in the actual leg work for these characters to form meaningful relationships that fully flesh out each character, because they want to get to the point where awkward flirting and heavy petting and wanton sexualization is primed and full frontal as quickly as possible. Hell, remember Gate? I liked gate a lot, but the MC still manages to get a full harem despite both being active in the Japanese military and never being on base. It's ultra lazy and the most we learn about each girl in said harem is that they harbor feelings for the MC...and that's it.

Personally, I find it hard to consider these things as malicious when at the end of the day, they're more poorly done than intently hurtful. All of the big isekai that have come out over the past few years have been ticking the same boxes to reach the same results and I don't think a single one of them has actually ended, they just drag the story out further in order to...make money I guess.

I'm not going to say that you should give sheild hero a pass or an endorsement because it's handling of slavery is dull at best, completely apathetic at worst. I'm saying that all of these shows are just like shield hero, even the better ones like .hack//sign which at least ATTEMPTS some character building or Log Horizon which ATTEMPTS at addressing the idea of power creep and how it affects the every day person.

The only Isekai I REALLY like right now is "So I'm a Spider, So what", and it sounds like even that's going to get into creepy, stupid, "She's evil so clearly she must be sexually attractive and refuse to wear clothes, because that's what EVIL WOMEN do" garbage. It's a problem with the entire medium, one I believe expands to japanese pop culture enmasse.

But I'm also trying not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[Deleted member 5596]

Ever seen Spartacus that was on Showtime for a while? You know that Cinemax shows porn late at night, right?

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We are talking mainstream media, not porn. Surely, is not a field we should enter. If Anime is the tip of the iceberg, Hentai is the very dark bottom.

In any case, from what I remember, Spartacus showed both male and female nudity, even so, I don't think is worse than To Love Ru...not a chance.

 

[Morlas]

Shield hero is a trash series for people with a revenge fetish...that's all i'll say

 

[Kitsunelaine]

Maybe you should consider that its indicative of their own personal trauma and abuse, and an attempt to rationalize what's happened to them or what they've been exposed to from a young age.

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Maybe you should conisder it's time to stop making excuses for the terrible shit in media formats we enjoy and want to improve.

Because I do want anime to get better. I love anime. That's why I won't shy away from calling this shit out as heavily as I have in this thread.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

We are talking mainstream media, not porn. Surely, is not a field we should enter. If Anime is the tip of the iceberg, Hentai is the very dark bottom.

In any case, from what I remember, Spartacus showed both male and female nudity, even so, I don't think is worse than To Love Ru...not a chance.

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I brought it up because the way Cinemax shows porn is the same way most of the types of anime are shown, late at night on channels dedicated to a niche. Spartacus has male and female nudity, yes, but the content is still extremely over the top and gratuitous sex and violence combined solely for titillation.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

Maybe you should conisder it's time to stop making excuses for the terrible shit in media formats we enjoy and want to improve.

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I'm not making excuses for the media, the media is bad and harmful. You weren't discussing the media any longer, you were making sweeping judgements about everyone who consumes said harmful media...you know, the ones being harmed by it.

 

[Mesoian]

We are talking mainstream media, not porn. Surely, is not a field we should enter. If Anime is the tip of the iceberg, Hentai is the very dark bottom.

In any case, from what I remember, Spartacus showed both male and female nudity, even so, I don't think is worse than To Love Ru...not a chance.

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I mean, Spartacus was pretty main stream (not a terrible show either).

But yeah, it's not glorifying the molestation of children either. There are levels here, and anime goes hard into the paint with the most abhorrent shit a lot of the time for the sake of checking boxes and using tropes. "How can we show the badguys are bad? RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPE".

That shit is a problem.

 

[Kitsunelaine]

I'm not making excuses for the media, the media is bad and harmful. You weren't discussing the media any longer, you were making sweeping judgements about everyone who consumes said harmful media...you know, the ones being harmed by it.

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It's like a dance. The two come hand in hand with one another. I'm saying it's time to stop with the mealy mouthed dismissive and forgiving bullshit if we actually want our communities and media to change.

 

[Deleted member 5359]

As a Japanese person I feel like people on this forum either see Japan as some amazing fairytale wonderland, or a shit hole filled with the most misogynistic racists in the world.

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That’s today’s Internet-driven world in a nutshell: things are the best ever or the worst trash. Nothing in-between.