The Anti-Blackness of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,072
Yeah. Its exactly this. To say "There aren't black characters in smash because there aren't any significant enough black Nintendo characters" is the opposite of a defense of smash and Nintendo, it should be being presented as harsh criticism of their practices.
Exactly. It is the equivalent of saying that the problem isn't Smash, it is the entirety of Nintendo. I mean, what a strange defense.

The unfortunate part is that I think Nintendo is going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming to be even moderately more inclusive. Which is going to be difficult, as there are a lot of people who are ready and willing to give Nintendo a pass for nearly anything.

Smash would be a good place to start. Though it is pretty concerning that they chose to not add Twintelle (who unquestionably has a large fanbase).
 

Richter1887

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Oct 27, 2017
30,863
Man I just read the rest of the thread after posting my post, I don't know if I should be disappointed or ashamed of some of you guys.

There are black Nintendo characters and if there isn't a lot then they should do more. They are the only company out there not going all in on diversity and that is a bad thing. 84 characters and not one of them is a good representation of black people. How does this look like to you?
 
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Neoxon

Neoxon

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Exactly. It is the equivalent of saying that the problem isn't Smash, it is the entirety of Nintendo. I mean, what a strange defense.

The unfortunate part is that I think Nintendo is going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming to be even moderately more inclusive. Which is going to be difficult, as there are a lot of people who are ready and willing to give Nintendo a pass for nearly anything.

Smash would be a good place to start. Though it is pretty concerning that they chose to not add Twintelle (who unquestionably has a large fanbase).
Like I said numerous times, the problem is more that Twintelle seemingly wasn't considered as opposed to Min Min being chosen instead (who, as mentioned before, has her own merits as being Smash's first Chinese character).

Man I just read the rest of the thread after posting my post, I don't know if I should be disappointed or ashamed of some of you guys.

There are black Nintendo characters and if there isn't a lot then they should do more. They are the only company out there not going all in on diversity and that is a bad thing. 84 characters and not one of them is a good representation of black people. How does this look like to you?
It's sadly not surprising how many people even on here would come to defend the flawed status quo.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,072
Like I said numerous times, the problem is more that Twintelle seemingly wasn't considered as opposed to Min Min being chosen instead (who, as mentioned before, has her own merits as being Smash's first Chinese character).
It is great that Min Min adds some representation to a largely homogenous cast, and I am not trying to throw any shade at the Min Min fans, but Twintelle is one of the few Nintendo characters who is both black and had a lot of momentum behind them. It is hard for me to not see that as a squandered opportunity.

Though, as I said before, the best option would have been to include both (even if they did need to make some alterations based on Twintelle using her hair instead of her arms to fight).
 
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Neoxon

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It is great that Min Min adds some representation to a largely homogenous cast, and I am not trying to throw any shade at the Min Min fans, but Twintelle is one of the few Nintendo characters who is both black and had a lot of momentum behind them. It is hard for me to not see that as a squandered opportunity.

Though, as I said before, the best option would have been to include both (even if they did need to make some alterations based on Twintelle using her hair instead of her arms to fight).
That’s a fair assessment. It just sucks that I had to be one or the other (or other generally-worse options).
 

Weiss

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Oct 25, 2017
52,406
I feel as if the crux of the issue behind Min Min vs. Twintelle is that Smash shouldn't be at a point where it's The Game's Only Chance For A Chinese Character vs. The Game's Only Chance For A Black Character.
 

jman0625

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Dec 18, 2017
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I'd Love Marina as a black character to be what I wanted the Octolings to be; an echo fighter of the inkling that focuses on the new weapons, sides, and supers from Splatoon 2.

Rodin would be sick as an echo fighter of Bayo, and I'd love a Mr. Dream echo for Little Mac. Sadly I don't know too many black gaming characters, but I'll echo the Arms rep would've been better as Twintelle :/
 

Benzychenz

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Nov 1, 2017
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The issue is with Nintendo (and the gaming industry as a whole), and not really with Smash. Even the choices for black characters in the OP are pretty bad outside of Twintelle, and that I can't be mad about seeing she doesn't make a good sole rep for ARMS considering her ARMS aren't her arms. If ARMS 2 releases and the series has a future, then they should definitely add her to Smash as a second character (even if it's as a semi clone).

Nintendo needs to do better though. We have three Mario princesses in Smash, they're all white. We have a plethora of Fire Emblem lords in Smash, they're all white (or white passing Japanese anime characters?). Why can't the next Fire Emblem be set in a country with dark skinned people in it? Make a cool black hero that way. Make a new IP with a cool black hero. Do better Nintendo.
 
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Neoxon

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The issue is with Nintendo (and the gaming industry as a whole), and not really with Smash. Even the choices for black characters in the OP are pretty bad outside of Twintelle, and that I can't be mad about seeing she doesn't make a good sole rep for ARMS considering her ARMS aren't her arms. If ARMS 2 releases and the series has a future, then they should definitely add her to Smash as a second character (even if it's as a semi clone).

Nintendo needs to do better though. We have three Mario princesses in Smash, they're all white. We have a plethora of Fire Emblem lords in Smash, they're all white (or white passing Japanese anime characters?). Why can't the next Fire Emblem be set in a country with dark skinned people in it? Make a cool black hero that way. Make a new IP with a cool black hero. Do better Nintendo.
Once again, while you are right that Nintendo needs to create more Black characters, we shouldn’t have to wait for a magical Black character to come along for them to be added to Smash. No matter how you slice it, the existing status quo is not ok when something can be done about it right now.
 
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Kewlmyc

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
19,292
I feel we lost our chance at a black rep with Twintelle, which really sucks. At the same time, Min Min was mine and apparently the world's favorite ARMS character, so that's fine. Ninjara being considered over Twintelle is some horseshit though.

Japan and Nintendo in general needs more black characters in main roles, I do highly agree with that.
 
Nov 4, 2017
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User Banned (Permanent): Concern Trolling on Racial Issues; Prior Ban for the Same
How is there less Asian representation in Smash than Black? There isn't a single Black character in Smash whereas there are several Asian characters. I know there are different ethnicities and races within the Asian community, but the same goes for Black folks... we are also many different ethnicities, cultures and nationalities. Not one big homogeneous blob. We're simply asking for one of these to be represented in some way.

More importantly, Neoxon is Black and is speaking from his own perspective. There is absolutely nothing wrong with making specific requests to see yourself represented and it's frankly kind of disrespectful to make that seem selfish. I have seen threads about Latinx representation and have never felt like they needed to speak about other forms of representation before speaking for themselves.
Wow... I fully get your point.
But we're gonna need a roster that has a few hundred character if they end up including all black ethnic groups and cultures :D
I mean... Belgian Congo alone has 250 ethnic groups (source: wikipedia)


Thanks for your explanation!
 

Gay Bowser

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Oct 30, 2017
10,411
But we're gonna need a roster that has a few hundred character if they end up including all black ethnic groups and cultures :D
I mean... Belgian Congo alone has 250 ethnic groups (source: wikipedia)
I don't really know what your point in bringing this up is, but it seems like a real weird-ass dodge.

We're talking about them featuring, you know, a non-zero amount of black ethnic groups and cultures, as a start. That's not too much to ask.
 
Nov 4, 2017
480
I don't really know what your point in bringing this up is, but it seems like a real weird-ass dodge.

We're talking about them featuring, you know, a non-zero amount of black ethnic groups and cultures, as a start. That's not too much to ask.
Did I say otherwise?
The part of the comment you quoted was only about the valid point regarding the fact that black people are not just one "blob", as aerith said. Don't read too much into it, that's all it was.
 

NSESN

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Oct 25, 2017
19,363
about the post asking why blacks and no latinos
you can add a black latino, we exist, in fact there are more black latinos than black people in the US
of course an african rep would be the best case scenario imo
 

slothrop

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Aug 28, 2019
1,815
I am not sure how to adequately critique Japanese developers on representation as the cultural context is so different. I don't know the state of these conversations in broader Japan to begin with. It's much easier with US based dev teams as there is a broader push for representation in fiction in general and their work exists in that context. It sure makes sense for Nintendo to try harder though since the US is their largest market.
 
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Neoxon

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I am not sure how to adequately critique Japanese developers on representation as the cultural context is so different. I don't know the state of these conversations in broader Japan to begin with. It's much easier with US based dev teams as there is a broader push for representation in fiction in general and their work exists in that context. It sure makes sense for Nintendo to try harder though since the US is their largest market.
There shouldn’t be a difference. Unfortunately, racism exists all over the world. It should be called out regarding Japanese developers just the same as it is with Western developers.
 

Neiteio

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Oct 25, 2017
16,674
I don't know if Nintendo realizes it, but a big part of Splatoon's success is the connection people feel to their avatar (Inkling or Octoling). The diversity options in that series, plus the way it lovingly channels hiphop and other elements of Black culture, broadened the appeal beyond Nintendo's usual offerings. It made the Inklings and Octolings feel more expressive, like people with real identities.

That diversity enhanced the game's setting, too. You can walk around Inkopolis and see all sorts of different looks, which keeps that game's universe from feeling samey and dull.

Obviously social justice is important, but there's another benefit to diversity in games: visual variety. A rainbow with seven colors is far more eye-catching than a rainbow with one! Even if Nintendo were (sadly) uninvested in improving representation, they should at least see value, as a creative company, in characters that are diverse and thus visually/conceptually engaging.
 

Alooful

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Mar 27, 2020
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It's weird because some dev teams at Nintendo (Splatoon/Animal Crossing/Pokemon sort of) are much better about it than others. Xenoblade and Fire Emblem, for instance, are obviously much weaker about it.

Seems like it might be up to the discretion of the individual teams at the moment. Wonder how likely it is that corporate Nintendo would nudge all teams in that direction at some point if things continue improving at the glacial pace
 

Alooful

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Mar 27, 2020
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I thought Edelgard is the most popular character in FE3H?
Edelgard isn't as popular in the polls I've seen.

It's a tricky situation because Byleth is the most compelling gameplay-wise and is house-agnostic. But Edelgard is the focal point of the story. Then you have Claude who is the most popular house leader (I believe). I get the argument for any of the 3 choices
 

Neiteio

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Oct 25, 2017
16,674
In general, splitting up a unit doesn't seem like Sakurai's thing.

Pearl and Marina are a pair. The Champions are a four-person unit. The house lords represent three different stories (or four, when you factor in Edelgard's alternate route). They are conceptually grouped together in all of their marketing appearances.

Ah, but what about Rex and Pyra being a driver-blade duo, you say? Sakurai says in the presentation video for Pyra that he did try to make Rex playable alongside her, like the Ice Climbers. And in Famitsu he wrote that he also considered having him in the background like Pokemon Trainer. But neither was technically feasible.

And in the end, Pyra and Mythra are co-equal to Rex as story leads, anyways. They are not different story campaigns, as with the house lords where you only experience one side in a given playthrough. They both go on the same journey.

So I can see how Marina, Urbosa and Claude are a bit complicated in this respect. Twintelle really was the least complicated choice, but she was probably undercut by how complicated she is as an expression of the ARMS concept. Sakurai would have to explain that this rep, for a game called ARMS, doesn't use her actual arms, but uses weapons called ARMS on her hair. It probably struck Sakurai as overly specialized or needlessly convoluted when Yabuki's choice, Min Min, uses her actual arms and even transforms them for variety.

Hopefully Nintendo has some major new Black characters in the works who will receive top billing in BotW2, Odyssey 2, Splatoon 3, etc -- characters who stand on their own and don't bear the baggage of a team or group.
 

Tekken

Banned
Mar 8, 2021
153
Quoting someone from this thread here sums it up for me

"The reason there are no black characters in Smash is because Nintendo doesn't want a black character in."

It's racism from Nintendo, nothing more nothing less.
I'd have boycotted their games but I don't like them anyway, however will definitely be sharing Nintendo's racist behaviour with all gamer and potential future gamers online and offline .

Very sad to see so many excuses from some people on this thread.
 

Alooful

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Mar 27, 2020
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So I can see how Marina, Urbosa and Claude are a bit complicated in this respect. Twintelle really was the least complicated choice, but she was probably undercut by how complicated she is as an expression of the ARMS concept. Sakurai would have to explain that this rep, for a game called ARMS, doesn't use her actual arms, but uses weapons called ARMS on her hair. It probably struck Sakurai as overly specialized or needlessly convoluted when Yabuki's choice, Min Min, uses her actual arms and even transforms them for variety.

Hopefully Nintendo has some major new Black characters in the works who will receive top billing in BotW2, Odyssey 2, Splatoon 3, etc -- characters who stand on their own and don't bear the baggage of a team or group.
Basically nailed it. Nintendo typically only creates dark skinned characters when they're tertiary characters or avatars, and that's the main problem.

It's why I think Rodin as a Bayo 3 character, Leon from Pokemon SwSh, or Doc Louis in a potential echo pack, stand the best chance for a black character getting in Ultimate. All the 2nd most important characters from their games arguably
 
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Trucy Wright

Member
Dec 15, 2020
131
I would love to see Marina be added to smash, she's one of Splatoon's (and Nintendo's ) most beloved character and Smash need some diversity


this is just a little thought I want to share with some of the people commenting in this thread

Cluade is middle eastern, not black, he's name is khalid and while I understand wanting more black rep in Nintendo ips, that should not come at the cost of other marginalized groups, middle eastern characters in video games are mega rare already and I would hate to see myself erased ( I'm middle eastern myself) please respect Khalid's ethnicity
 

teenaxta

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Feb 13, 2021
336
I think its not Nintendo's case, it's more like Japan. Even their anime are not particularly supportive of inclusion. There are only a handful of anime where people of color have major roles. I reckon its a cultural thing.
 

Zyrox

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Oct 25, 2017
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Y'know I could actually see Marina being one of the final two characters for this game. Splatoon is certainly popular enough to justify a second slot on this roster. Now, of course Splatoon has just been introduced as a new franchise in Smash Bros. Ultimate but I don't think that means very much. Smash 4 introduced two unique Fire Emblem and Mario newcomers after all so why not Splatoon as well?
Marina would be perfect. Better than a generic Octoling imho, that kind of avatar character concept is already covered with the Inkling. Plus, in addition to using weapons which the Inkling doesn't use like the Splatling, Umbrella or Sniper Rifle she could also use music based moves since she is a performer and music is a huge part of Splatoon. Would be kind of nice if Smash Ultimate started with Splatoon and ended with Splatoon.
Of course she is in a duo with Pearl but Pearl can still appear in taunts and win poses like Rex does.
 

L Thammy

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It's weird because some dev teams at Nintendo (Splatoon/Animal Crossing/Pokemon sort of) are much better about it than others. Xenoblade and Fire Emblem, for instance, are obviously much weaker about it.

Seems like it might be up to the discretion of the individual teams at the moment. Wonder how likely it is that corporate Nintendo would nudge all teams in that direction at some point if things continue improving at the glacial pace
Different people have different attitudes no matter where you are. That's the same in Japan as anywhere else.
 

Chaos2Frozen

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Nov 3, 2017
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I think its not Nintendo's case, it's more like Japan. Even their anime are not particularly supportive of inclusion. There are only a handful of anime where people of color have major roles. I reckon its a cultural thing.
Every other Japanese made fighting game has at least one black or dark-skinned character.
 

Entryhazard

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Oct 25, 2017
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I think its not Nintendo's case, it's more like Japan. Even their anime are not particularly supportive of inclusion. There are only a handful of anime where people of color have major roles. I reckon its a cultural thing.
most Japanese works (sometimes even of a big scale) are made with the mindset of being for Japanese audiences, with overseas distribution just being seen an added bonus, so they're just interested in catering to Japanese people and conforming to American standards is an afterthought if it happens at all.
So all the stories in the real world are set in Japan and fantastic settings have this nondescript ethnicity that is implied to be japanese-like, and black people are explicitly marked as foreigners, mostly as the other American bodytype when they aren't comically blonde and with a square jaw.
More than direct aversion towards black characters it's that they just don't care?
While Japan is a racist country towards basically any foreigner going worse darker the skin, it's not like all these creators have a provision that explicitly asks them to not put any black character in their works but rather the though never crosses their mind because they just expect to make it look like it's the homogenous Japan.

I don't expect people like Miyamoto or Sakurai to hate black people and ban them from their works, but rather I imagine that "should I put a black character in this?" is something they never think about
 

Sesha

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Oct 25, 2017
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It's why I think Rodin as a Bayo 3 character, Leon from Pokemon SwSh, or Doc Louis in a potential echo pack, stand the best chance for a black character getting in Ultimate. All the 2nd most important characters from their games arguably
Leon is brown, I believe. Galar is based on the UK, and he's meant to be South Asian given the substantial number of people of those ethnicities in the UK.
 
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Neoxon

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I like both characters but Arms doesn't deserve 2 fighters, unless one's an echo
Well, ARMS is a game where its two most popular characters are both women of color which also has the least amount of red tape given that it’s an in-house IP, so yeah.

I think its not Nintendo's case, it's more like Japan. Even their anime are not particularly supportive of inclusion. There are only a handful of anime where people of color have major roles. I reckon its a cultural thing.
Within the Japanese gaming industry, most of the other major players are at least either bringing about more diversity or are planning to. As mentioned in the OP, Smash is one of only three modern fighting games with zero Black characters. And unlike DBFZ & GBVS, Smash has way more options to pull from.
 

Aerith

Umbasa
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Oct 25, 2017
4,433
I would love to see Marina be added to smash, she's one of Splatoon's (and Nintendo's ) most beloved character and Smash need some diversity


this is just a little thought I want to share with some of the people commenting in this thread

Cluade is middle eastern, not black, he's name is khalid and while I understand wanting more black rep in Nintendo ips, that should not come at the cost of other marginalized groups, middle eastern characters in video games are mega rare already and I would hate to see myself erased ( I'm middle eastern myself) please respect Khalid's ethnicity
While I agree that Claude isn't Black (there really isn't any reason to assume this), I do want to point out since there are over a billion Muslims worldwide and many have Arabic names, there are lots of Black people with Arabic names, myself included. ^^ Plus Black Arabs like Sudanese folks.
 
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Neoxon

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Raftina made me aware of the lack of primarily & inarguably Black characters in both BlazBlue: Central Fiction & Under Night In-Birth, both of which are now mentioned in the OP.

 

Trucy Wright

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Dec 15, 2020
131
While I agree that Claude isn't Black (there really isn't any reason to assume this), I do want to point out since there are over a billion Muslims worldwide and many have Arabic names, there are lots of Black people with Arabic names, myself included. ^^ Plus Black Arabs like Sudanese folks.
that's true ^^ sorry for failing to consider this, you're right!
 

Phendrift

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Oct 25, 2017
25,644
Quoting someone from this thread here sums it up for me

"The reason there are no black characters in Smash is because Nintendo doesn't want a black character in."

It's racism from Nintendo, nothing more nothing less.
I'd have boycotted their games but I don't like them anyway, however will definitely be sharing Nintendo's racist behaviour with all gamer and potential future gamers online and offline .

Very sad to see so many excuses from some people on this thread.
I mean if you’re suggesting Nintendo specifically doesn’t WANT a Black character in, I don’t think that’s the case at all. I think they/Sakurai simply just don’t care and view representation as “needed” which is another problem on its own, but I find accusing them of having something AGAINST black characters a pretty big accusation to make.

which takes me to the other thing I wanted to say, which was I absolutely agree there are a ton of franchises where a Black character being put in as the MC should happen. Xenoblade and Fire Emblem get a new MC every installment, why not make one of them a Black protagonist? I definitely think that should be worked on. And of course that leads us back to Smash because said characters would be viable reps.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
Once again, while you are right that Nintendo needs to create more Black characters, we shouldn’t have to wait for a magical Black character to come along for them to be added to Smash. No matter how you slice it, the existing status quo is not ok when something can be done about it right now.
What exactly do that mean? That Smash should make an original character who is black like how Street Fighter can make new characters and that character is free DLC, because people aren't going to buy an original character in a game that is primarily about having your favorite characters beat the crap out of each other?
 

HeroR

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Dec 10, 2017
7,450
It's weird because some dev teams at Nintendo (Splatoon/Animal Crossing/Pokemon sort of) are much better about it than others. Xenoblade and Fire Emblem, for instance, are obviously much weaker about it.

Seems like it might be up to the discretion of the individual teams at the moment. Wonder how likely it is that corporate Nintendo would nudge all teams in that direction at some point if things continue improving at the glacial pace
A FYI, Pokemon isn't Nintendo. That's Game Freaks who is an independent company. Same with Intelligent Systems and FE. That and FE do have different cultures depending on the game. They just don't tend to be of African roots.

For the most part, Nintendo let their teams and the independent studios that makes IPs with them do whatever they want.

most Japanese works (sometimes even of a big scale) are made with the mindset of being for Japanese audiences, with overseas distribution just being seen an added bonus, so they're just interested in catering to Japanese people and conforming to American standards is an afterthought if it happens at all.
So all the stories in the real world are set in Japan and fantastic settings have this nondescript ethnicity that is implied to be japanese-like, and black people are explicitly marked as foreigners, mostly as the other American bodytype when they aren't comically blonde and with a square jaw.
More than direct aversion towards black characters it's that they just don't care?
While Japan is a racist country towards basically any foreigner going worse darker the skin, it's not like all these creators have a provision that explicitly asks them to not put any black character in their works but rather the though never crosses their mind because they just expect to make it look like it's the homogenous Japan.

I don't expect people like Miyamoto or Sakurai to hate black people and ban them from their works, but rather I imagine that "should I put a black character in this?" is something they never think about
This is very true. For example, the author of Bleach was surprised to learn the his manga was so popular overseas and Dragon Ball was made for Japan first with it exploding overseas being seen as a bonus.

If POCs do appear in manga or anime, it's usually because it's exotic. As for Miyamoto, his thing is always gameplay first, everything else second. So he's not going in with a mindset of diversity. Sakurai for Smash is more of 'what characters are cool and would be fun to play', not really caring what the character looks like outside of censorship.
 
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Gay Bowser

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Oct 30, 2017
10,411
What exactly do that mean? That Smash should make an original character who is black like how Street Fighter can make new characters and that character is free DLC, because people aren't going to buy an original character in a game that is primarily about having your favorite characters beat the crap out of each other?
Nobody's saying they should make an original character. They could simply add one of the many black characters that already exist.

It's really not that hard to understand.
 

Trucy Wright

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Dec 15, 2020
131
What exactly do that mean? That Smash should make an original character who is black like how Street Fighter can make new characters and that character is free DLC, because people aren't going to buy an original character in a game that is primarily about having your favorite characters beat the crap out of each other?
Op mentioned some black characters to add, Like Marina from splatoon

nobody is saying make up a charcter for smash ..?
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
Op mentioned some black characters to add, Like Marina from splatoon

nobody is saying make up a charcter for smash ..?
Marina to me isn't black because she's a humanoid octopus who happened to have dark-skin. But it's whatever.

And what I meant was the line, "we shouldn’t have to wait for a magical Black character to come along for them to be added to Smash". I want to know what exactly that means.
 

Trucy Wright

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Dec 15, 2020
131
Marina to me isn't black because she's a humanoid octopus who happened to have dark-skin. But it's whatever.

And what I meant was the line, "we shouldn’t have to wait for a magical Black character to come along for them to be added to Smash". I want to know what exactly that means.
all humanoid octopuses/Squids are coded, Callie and Marie were coded as Japanese, and Marina is coded to be black for the most part.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
Nobody's saying they should make an original character. They could simply add one of the many black characters that already exist.

It's really not that hard to understand.
There isn't many black people to add if the only ones that keeps constantly being brought up in every forum on this subject is Elma who's true form is cat alien and I wrote my issues with Marina several times.

all humanoid octopuses/Squids are coded, Callie and Marie were coded as Japanese, and Marina is coded to be black for the most part.
So is Pearl since she she got clothing inspired by Biggie Smalls, but she isn't black.