• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Neat

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,107
New York City
Any way you slice it, Microsoft has crafted an excellent service in Xbox Game Pass. The value proposition is undeniable, which is why many of us have several years of the service stocked up. You have a huge library of titles, get to play brand new full-price games the day they hit retail, and Microsoft has recently expanded it to PC in an official capacity, with xcloud in the works giving you more options to play than ever before. So everything's peachy, right?

Consider the following:

1. Microsoft wants consumers to sub long term. Yes they have promotions for you to get on board for $1 a month or $2 for two, but what they really want to sell are those year-long subscriptions. They even recently let you convert up to 3 years worth of Live or Game Pass to Game Pass Ultimate. Like any company wanting to maximize profits, they want you in their ecosystem for the long haul.

2. A big marketing point for them is to have games available on Game Pass day and date with their retail releases. They entice this further by offering "ultimate" editions of games for Game Pass subscribers, as is the case with Gears 5. If the numbers are any indication, a lot of people have been playing the game, making it Microsoft's most-played first party effort in years. And why shouldn't they? Getting to play a brand new $60 release on day one for $10 or $15 a month (even less if you're on a promotional price) is a great deal.

Here's the problem.

A lot of games in this current climate have been shifting, and will continue shifting, to a GaaS model, or otherwise have elements of said service games. Publishers plan and design their games out for you to play them long term, for months at a time, adding content as they go along, Microsoft amongst them. What this translates to is that you're left with many games that feel barebones at launch, light in content until they get fleshed out with regular updates, as they're designed to be. Destiny and Microsoft's own Sea of Thieves are great examples of games that eventually got it together, but the day one experience for those games were lacking.

Furthermore, with the way game development has ballooned into massive undertakings in resources, many games nowadays just don't work as intended at release. Day one patches have become the norm in this industry, and often that is never enough. Gears 5, for example, despite being a massive hit for Xbox Game Pass, has been marred with technical issues including but not limited to missing assets, server issues, audio issues, AI pathfinding issues, missing collectables, stuck animations, and literal gamebreaking bugs in the campaign that block progress. All of this provided you were fortunate enough to even get Xbox Live to work. The service has had issues ever since launch, and I'm wary thinking about how badly it will buckle with the release of Halo Infinite. This kind of thing isn't some uncommon exception; major releases tend to have rough launches, riddled with bugs until they're eventually ironed out over the following weeks and months.

Now, you might be saying "but Neat, games launching light on content and plagued with issues is hardly limited to Xbox Game Pass". Or you might be one of the wasteyutes bloviating "tough nuts Neat, if you don't like it, don't sub until after that shit gets fixed". All of that goes back to what I was saying earlier. This is a service explicitly pushed to get you on board long term. There's no "sub later", you are already subbed. This is also a service specifically marketed around having a low barrier of entry to get you to play the latest hot new game. And that game you're playing is missing a ton of content, recycles a bunch of quests to pad its length, and hell it probably doesn't even have an ending fam, and that's assuming the game will even let you play ball and get past its technical issues to get to that point. Put another way, the draw and appeal of Xbox Game Pass really doesn't jive with the gaming landscape in this day and age
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,911
I think you make valid points about the state of new games in general, but I would counter by saying that with the Day+Date games, you're essentially investing £10 for the game as opposed to £50+ for an outright purchase, so your risk is much, much lower. Plus, there are plenty of other things that you have the option of playing for that £10, so even if the "main event" turns out to be a dud, then there's other stuff that can mitigate the disappointment.

(Not to mention that there may be more than one title per month that you're interested in)
 
Last edited:

ghibli99

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,670
How many of those games on GP are what you're describing though? There are a lot of games on there that I've played and enjoyed that weren't bare-bones or broken at launch, including many of the new additions that have gone in over the past several months. And I mean some issues aside, but lots of my friends are playing and loving Gears 5. Coworker had a lot of fun killing Doc in MP yesterday. :)
 

NSA

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,892
I mean.. that's why there are a ton of other games available on the service. You're not JUST getting access to 1 HOT NEW GAME. You can play ALL the other games if you don't feel like playing the "content lite" version right away. Would you rather pay $60 to play the same "content lite" game instead?

I don't really see your point. I assume you're trying to make the accusation that Game Pass will lead to more "content lite" games? I don't buy it personally.
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,496
I don't really see your point to be honest.

Game Pass is well suited to GaaS.

More over if subscription schemes like Game Pass become common, games will change to fit the model.
 

Deception

Member
Nov 15, 2017
8,419
Game Pass is perfect for GaaS. You get to try the game for $10 and if you like it enough then you can either continue your sub or purchase the game hopefully months later at a discount.
 

rokkerkory

Banned
Jun 14, 2018
14,128
If there wasn't an appeal and draw then it will simply not work. GP offers plenty of value for the price point. Why should I pay $60+ for a MS 1st party game when I can pay 1/6 of the price or less for much more content?
 

Bold One

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
18,911
Been saying this for ages, the numbers just don't add up, ita a great deal for the consumer but for the devs i. AAA and AA space the ROI is not there.

Simply put, unsustainable.
 

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
18,391
Individual games with glitches has nothing to do with the GamePass model (or XBL), and as movies like Bright or Bird Box or Always Be My Maybe on Netflix show, consumers are actually more forgiving when they see the price of admission for each individual title as "free" or a small part of a greater whole.
 
Feb 26, 2018
2,753
Some people here don't understand it's not about how much money will gaas on GP make. It's more about the quality of the games.
What will you choose? Great games for 60$ or mediocre for 10$ a month?
 

janusff

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,122
Austin, TX
neat thread

rather than the examples given in the OP i'm actually more curious what this will mean for first party games and the budget they receive. If MS doesn't see a higher sub rate in the long term and is not making money and sinking massive costs into these games, at what point do they decide to put less money into these titles to offset the loss?
 

Deleted member 58846

User requested account closure
Banned
Jul 28, 2019
5,086
I would agree with this analysis, except the reality of the games we have seen, such as Forza Horizon 4 or Gears 5, clearly contradicts it, so...
 

Deleted member 18951

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,531
Games release with bugs on all platforms and sometimes you pay £50 for them.
Some games have lots and lots of content and some dont across all platforms.
Game Pass has all kinds of games in all kinds of genres in all types of shapes and sizes.
GaaS is not the only genre served on Game Pass.
It's not just Xbox games on the service.

No offence but your whole OP is flawed to Hell and back.
 

sredgrin

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,276
They've had like 1 game that's launched technically troubled (Gears 5) and 1 that was low on content (Sea of Thieves). Reads like you're making a mountain out of a molehill.
 
Oct 31, 2017
3,287
I agree with your points and have been thinking the same thing for a while now. I guess we'll just have to wait and see where things go but I'm not fully convinced yet on how GP can support the modern AAA gaming space in the long term.
 

Komo

Info Analyst
Verified
Jan 3, 2019
7,106
I mean those issues are a minority of users. Xbox Live was fine during launch. So I also don't know what you mean by that regard,
 

Deleted member 5764

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,574
OP, I feel like the "issues" you described make Game Pass more appealing. You get to play on day one for a substantially lower cost. Then, with the GaaS approach you'll be more likely to continue the subscription for the months ahead as game X that you like gets more content.
 

Complicated

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,330
I've had a netflix subscription for years to watch shows and movies that are just as short if not much shorter than most games. This criticism does not seem very informed on what Game Pass has been as a service so far. I've gotten two of my favorite games of the year from it this year, and both were polished and well executed.
 

Septy

Prophet of Truth
Member
Nov 29, 2017
4,081
United States
Pretty sure the issues with campaign progress, collectibles, and Xbox live were due to the amazon servers that Xbox runs on were under a ddos attack. The attack plus increased usage from the game is what led to a ton of issues.
 

Hurting Bomb

Member
Oct 28, 2017
932
Some people here don't understand it's not about how much money will gaas on GP make. It's more about the quality of the games.
What will you choose? Great games for 60$ or mediocre for 10$ a month?
There are great games on Gamepass.

Also, you don't have to have one or the other, you can have both....
 

TheJackdog

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,644
i dont even know where to begin with this.

Isnt a smaller investment upfront, where there is a chance a game you pay full price for, better when games can launch with broken features?

And in a world where GaaS drives more revenue than upfront sales, isnt a lower barrier to entry thereby increasing users for the long term, better for devs too?
 

Cat Party

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,392
Some people here don't understand it's not about how much money will gaas on GP make. It's more about the quality of the games.
What will you choose? Great games for 60$ or mediocre for 10$ a month?
This might blow your mind but I have a long term GP sub and I also just bought Borderlands 3 for $60.
 

TheJackdog

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,644
Been saying this for ages, the numbers just don't add up, ita a great deal for the consumer but for the devs i. AAA and AA space the ROI is not there.

Simply put, unsustainable.

ROI already isnt there for AAA games mostly, hence the transition to a GaaS model, which also spreads profit over a longer term, and in turn makes developing a game less risky when all of your profits arent just coming from the first run sales

additionally, hollywoodalready transitioned to this model, and its paying massive returns for them. And movies made for streaming subscriptions cant draw the same profits as GaaS games. if anything, a subscription service is MORE suited to games than movies/tv
 

LordBaztion

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,807
Lima Perú
I think curently MS is aiming at the core audience, they want them to be invested in their ecosystem. Anyone who already has already subbed to gamepass for six month is already a win for Microsoft. The hardcore audience is the one who spends more on games, so, if they are already invested in their ecosystem, they are likely to keep on it as the cost is low compared to the previous models. Besides, their spend may migrate to other microsoft hosted services or products. I stimate that they are at the stage of bulding the user base for the service and pretend to profit once the service is stablished from the massification of the service once it reaches the casual audience.

Regarding, the issue of games not being "complete" at launch, I understand it as a retelling of the perception that gamepass is an excuse for MS to make mediocre games. While inevitably bad games will be released on the service, cases like Forza and Gears are a counterproof to that perception. The reality of the industry is that, if your game is bad, people won't play it, regardless of your preferences, if a game is succesful, it's because it does something good. The same applies for MS, if their service has bad content, people will migrate to a better one, specially once streaming plunders to the ground the entry barrier.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
Any way you slice it, Microsoft has crafted an excellent service in Xbox Game Pass. The value proposition is undeniable, which is why many of us have several years of the service stocked up. You have a huge library of titles, get to play brand new full-price games the day they hit retail, and Microsoft has recently expanded it to PC in an official capacity, with xcloud in the works giving you more options to play than ever before. So everything's peachy, right?

Consider the following:

1. Microsoft wants consumers to sub long term. Yes they have promotions for you to get on board for $1 a month or $2 for two, but what they really want to sell are those year-long subscriptions. They even recently let you convert up to 3 years worth of Live or Game Pass to Game Pass Ultimate. Like any company wanting to maximize profits, they want you in their ecosystem for the long haul.

2. A big marketing point for them is to have games available on Game Pass day and date with their retail releases. They entice this further by offering "ultimate" editions of games for Game Pass subscribers, as is the case with Gears 5. If the numbers are any indication, a lot of people have been playing the game, making it Microsoft's most-played first party effort in years. And why shouldn't they? Getting to play a brand new $60 release on day one for $10 or $15 a month (even less if you're on a promotional price) is a great deal.

Here's the problem.

A lot of games in this current climate have been shifting, and will continue shifting, to a GaaS model, or otherwise have elements of said service games. Publishers plan and design their games out for you to play them long term, for months at a time, adding content as they go along, Microsoft amongst them. What this translates to is that you're left with many games that feel barebones at launch, light in content until they get fleshed out with regular updates, as they're designed to be. Destiny and Microsoft's own Sea of Thieves are great examples of games that eventually got it together, but the day one experience for those games were lacking.

Furthermore, with the way game development has ballooned into massive undertakings in resources, many games nowadays just don't work as intended at release. Day one patches have become the norm in this industry, and often that is never enough. Gears 5, for example, despite being a massive hit for Xbox Game Pass, has been marred with technical issues including but not limited to missing assets, server issues, audio issues, AI pathfinding issues, missing collectables, stuck animations, and literal gamebreaking bugs in the campaign that block progress. All of this provided you were fortunate enough to even get Xbox Live to work. The service has had issues ever since launch, and I'm wary thinking about how badly it will buckle with the release of Halo Infinite. This kind of thing isn't some uncommon exception; major releases tend to have rough launches, riddled with bugs until they're eventually ironed out over the following weeks and months.

Now, you might be saying "but Neat, games launching light on content and plagued with issues is hardly limited to Xbox Game Pass". Or you might be one of the wasteyutes bloviating "tough nuts Neat, if you don't like it, don't sub until after that shit gets fixed". All of that goes back to what I was saying earlier. This is a service explicitly pushed to get you on board long term. There's no "sub later", you are already subbed. This is also a service specifically marketed around having a low barrier of entry to get you to play the latest hot new game. And that game you're playing is missing a ton of content, recycles a bunch of quests to pad its length, and hell it probably doesn't even have an ending fam, and that's assuming the game will even let you play ball and get past its technical issues to get to that point. Put another way, the draw and appeal of Xbox Game Pass really doesn't jive with the gaming landscape in this day and age

What you're describing is like looking at the body of the typical car to dictate what type of next gen engine you're going to build. You can build the engine first and then build the body around it.

Today's gaming landscape has been dictated by financial models that work for both consumers and big companies. The Game Pass model is a new engine and with it will come a variety of new types of customers and opportunities. What gets missed when focusing on the current model is what types of things don't we have today due to financial restraints of both consumers and developers. Who are the new or evolving customers due to the lowered barrier to entry for gaming? Gaming and its customers has evolved multiple times. Today's typical consumer doesn't look like the typical consumer 20 years ago. It's logical that gaming will evolve again with 5G. Today's investment in Game Pass is a long term gamble on 5G opportunities.

Technical issues, especially those related to servers, don't go away because you rid of the ability to iterate games long term. Today's games simply have a lot more moving parts.
 

Paul

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,603
That is the big risk of netflix-like subscription services, the only metric that will matter is how long players play a game, which can lead to developers artificially extending games with filler bullshit and GaaS elements...eventhough GamePass is great service right now, I am worried it will lead to this.
 

ThreepQuest64

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
5,735
Germany
Seeing that games via Xbox App or Windows Stores are kinda locked away and I can't even properly access the files in the dictionary, being not really the owner of them and can't handle them like I want (and the Xbox app not offering a file integrity check) led to some problems in the past on my end so I still prefer not using the Xbox on Windows 10.

As muchas you want to turn PC into console (like ecosystem) sometimes you still need the more intricate features of a PC when you playing on it.

Hence I won't subscribe for years and give them so much money. That month for a buck deal was good though to check out some games.
 

Sprat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,684
England
Been saying this for ages, the numbers just don't add up, ita a great deal for the consumer but for the devs i. AAA and AA space the ROI is not there.

Simply put, unsustainable.
What they want at this point though is for people to get months possibly years in subscriptions super cheap that takes them beyond the next hardware release so then people will feel they have to choose that due to the service that they've paid for
 

Strat

Member
Apr 8, 2018
13,327
Gotta be honest, I don't even know what point you're trying to make here. Like...GaaS, day one disasters and ligh content "soft launches" and Game Pass fit so perfectly it's disgusting. All it does is mitigate the risk the consumer takes paying full price up front for half-baked games.

Some people here don't understand it's not about how much money will gaas on GP make. It's more about the quality of the games.
What will you choose? Great games for 60$ or mediocre for 10$ a month?
The notion that the price of a game has any impact on its quality is beyond hilarious. It's absurd.
 

TheJackdog

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,644
That is the big risk of netflix-like subscription services, the only metric that will matter is how long players play a game, which can lead to developers artificially extending games with filler bullshit and GaaS elements...eventhough GamePass is great service right now, I am worried it will lead to this.

agreed here. but i also think it opens a market where you are now competing with OTHER games in the same service, so its not like if a game adds tons of filler content its the only thing users can play, they still have to draw users in and keep them with, what wed hope at least, is quality content
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,026
Just like the economics established during the 360 /PS3 HD era, ballooning costs of dev but fixed $60 pricing was unsustainable so pubs sought to offset that with mtx, dlc and lootboxes

Now you have model where gamers pay a sub fee to access a bunch of games that cost even.more money to make

With movie pass shutting down , it's clear the gamepass model is sustained only by MS' largesse and the end game is more gambling and mtx mechanics to make the money back of you removing the $60 up front cost for a slice of subscription revenue.
 

TheJackdog

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,644
What they want at this point though is for people to get months possibly years in subscriptions super cheap that takes them beyond the next hardware release so then people will feel they have to choose that due to the service that they've paid for

word of mouth too. they are counting on the cheaper subs to help convert people who arent already using it.

"oh its free on gamepass, just get gamepass and we can play"
 

JayWood2010

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,120
What youre saying makes little to no sense to be honest, with several holes. It just seems like youre trying to make a "concerned" statement, but it actually makes Game Pass sound even better.

Its like the entire post boils down to "Its too good to be true"
 

Remo Williams

Self-requested ban
Banned
Jan 13, 2018
4,769
The OP is little more than wrong assumptions and a lot of fear-mongering based on a few outliers, while ignoring the vast majority of games on the service, and the nature of Microsoft's investments in GP content.
 

Badcoo

Member
May 9, 2018
1,605
So netflix buys at movie for say $10 million? You think they make up their costs from the $10-16 per month subs? With millions of people sharing accounts?

I can't confirm this but I'm pretty sure they're gathering a shit-ton of player data and using that. Yes, they can do that without GP but that depends on people willing to buy the game. There are so many permutations on the type of data they can gather. And just like youtube, netflix, google - they'll be the first to gather that for gaming.
 
Apr 4, 2018
4,507
Vancouver, BC
Gears 5 and Forza Horizon 4 have more content then previous games at launch.

Exactly, none of those points make Game Pass a poor value proposition, if anything they validate Game Pass further. These are broad points that are industry-wide occurrences.

Points to note:
- Microsoft wants quality games with high metacritic. You don't get that by launching half-finished games and I doubt you will continue seeing that outside of rare occurrences.
- Microsoft will continue to have big-budget AAA games with tons of content. If anything, Game Pass's success means even more money, and a broader audience to target bigger games to.What Microsoft really wants, is enough funds to make even more big budget games, to make game pass even more successful.
- GAAS is the perfect type of game for Game Pass. It's great for both MS and consumers to launch games that start strong and continue to have free updates for years to come.
- Games being buggy is more a product of rushing games to launch to meet Christmas deadlines, this isn't a Game Pass exclusive issue (see Borderlands 3, and I would suspect a large amount of games coming this Christmas). I'd much rather pay $2-10 than risk $60 for a game during the Christmas period. This is a boon for Game Pass.
- Bigger Launches on heavily online games on Game Pass is a good problem for MS to have, and it's better for players to have bigger player pools. I hope devs are able to do broader betas and tech tests before launch, and that MS's heavy investment in server infrastructure continues to pan out and improve this.
 
Last edited:

Shpeshal Nick

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,856
Melbourne, Australia
If I'm understanding the OP correctly (and I'd like to believe I am), he's saying Game Pass is a wolf in sheep's clothing sent to take down the games industry from the inside

Hard to disagree.
 

Jiraiya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,270
Y'all bending ass backwards trying to make gamepass sound like a bad deal for consumers.
 
Nov 23, 2018
878
I think GaaS releasing in states like Sea of Thieves, Anthem, and Fallout 76 are NOT better suited for Game Pass; in fact, quite the opposite.

GaaS in a subscription model require high-quality, sustainable content like Gears 5 and Forza 4.
 

Lucky_Seenty

Member
Oct 27, 2017
59
i signed up for the ultimate pass becuase it just made sense, £11 a month is a really good deal for whats offered. I'll probably buy less games to see what comes on gamepass pc or xbox