The casualization of Nintendo's IP

[bye]

Everyone loves BOTW sure. But it's universal appeal is notable - considering the franchise never had that before. The complex intertwining dungeons were all removed and replaced with quick puzzle shrines, the most interesting side quest involves you just collecting wood, you could almost count the variety of monsters on your two hands. That's not to discount what the game does right, but we can all agree that they made an effort to make it a more approachable Zelda game.

Then it happened to 3D Mario. Odyssey removes most of the lengthy platforming that used to be so great in 3D Mario and replaces it for the most part with Moons that are often far too easy and quick to obtain.

And then it happened to Pokemon. Although you could argue we are still getting another game, the changes they made to the basic formula in Let's Go are pretty baffling; like removing wild battles or gate-keeping the Gyms. There is no explanation for this other than what they did in the previous two games, make it easier and more approachable.

Super Mario Party also axed features left and right and dumbed down the entire core game in general. A lazy release, or continuing the trend, or both.

Does this not worry anyone else? I'm becoming very apprehensive about core Nintendo titles which is not something that usually happens. Even their Wii-era games had more depth in many ways.

 

[Deleted member 426]

It's been this way for a decade at least to be fair. Nintendo had to become more casual to stay relevant (in fact its really worked out for them).

They at least do well at balancing casual and hardcore, but sometimes some compromises have to be made.

Otherwise it's N64 and GameCube all over again.

 

[Deleted member 10629]

I dunno, the dark side of the moon levels on Odyssey are fucking rage inducing and BOTW doesnt hold your hand outside the tutorial region.

 

[Deleted member 1413]

Breath of the Wild is not casualized Zelda, it's probably the hardest since Majora's Mask.

Odyssey being more of a sandbox instead of the platforming challenge game like 3D World is also not casualization.

Pokemon Let's Go is a remake/spin off with a main game coming out next year. Ask again if that title matches your concerns.

Super Mario Party is also the best Mario Party since the gamecube? Also, don't call the developers lazy.

 

[gunlovefiction]

You aren't wrong tbh

 

[Deleted member 37233]

Breath of the Wild isn't casualized at all. It's the hardest Zelda in quite some time and even includes survival mechanics. The typical several hour long tutorial is lacking and the game didn't even tell you about everything, like cooking and shield surfing (you could miss the sections that mention this stuff).

And Odyssey isn't more casual than 64 or Sunshine. 64 was easier if you ask me.

 

[Courage]

What was the last Mario game that was challenging outside of its end game content?

 

[Medalion]

Nintendo games have always about inclusiveness... just because they are no longer your niche thing anymore, does not mean they are somehow worse or diluted..

 

[Deleted member 4093]

Well if they made them niche and they all sold like Metroid yall would then shit on them for being low sellers.

That said, if those games are casual what about all the other western AAA games? I know you aint telling me them for "hardcore" gamers

 

[Deleted member 249]

Breath of the Wild is not casualized in the slightest, wtf

It has mainstream appeal, but it does so by offering seemingly endless emergent possibilities.

 

[DNAbro]

I feel like even saying Breath of the Wild is a "casualization" of the series is a misrepresentation of the different design philosophy the game has compared to other Zelda games. BOTW is much more about giving you more options to approach combat and exploring the world. Less focus on large puzzle dungeons doesn't mean it's a more casual experience, especially with how many puzzles they through in the game.

 

[Deleted member 3017]

Ironically, Nintendo made these IP more casual by removing excessive tutorialization.

 

[BocoDragon]

I thought handholding Zelda between WW and SS was the casualized version? Always telling me where to go and what to do was very casual.

BOTW throwing people out into a field without much instruction is much more "core gaming".

 

[Jaded Alyx]

but we can all agree that they made an effort to make it a more approachable Zelda game.

Click to shrink...

No, no I don't think we can.

 

[Deleted member 864]

Breath of the Wild didn't feel casualized at all for me, same with Odyssey which felt the same difficulty wise with the other Mario's.

 

[808s & Villainy]

The idea that BOTW or Odyssey are more casual than previous iterations is laughable.

BOTW has the most complex world the series has seen yet. You overrate the complexity of the older dungeons. They were essentially multiple shrines strung together, but no singular puzzle was incredibly complex in comparison. In fact the DLC dungeon is right up there with the best of the older ones. Not to mention the game is easily has less handholding and a higher difficulty than any of the other titles except maybe 1 or 2

And Odyssey Mario is easily, unarguably, the most capable one yet. The game literally has a guidebook because of the number of moves and techniques he has available. People like to fixate on the easy to collect moons and pretend that those are all the game offers when in reality they're there for more casual/beginner players to progress. There are still just as many moons tied to complex stages and platforming challenges as in previous titles

Pokemon isn't Nintendo. Gamefreak does whatever the fuck they want to and that has been a longtime trend since Gen 4/5 and nothing recent

 

[Deleted member 197]

Nintendo has always been casual, they are Nintendo.

But the Zelda thing is really funny to me considering the game is not only harder than past entries but the amount of handholding the past entries were becoming infamous for was removed, like this was an aspect people praised a lot.

 

[Procheno]

LOL you complain BOTW is casualized?

Play Skyward sword, or Twilight Princess, or Wind Waker and tell me that again

BOTW is the hardest Zelda released since Zelda 2. You just have nostalgia bias

 

[ghibli99]

It's been my observation for a while that the longer a popular franchise sticks around, the harder it becomes to not only keep providing something new to existing fans, but making it accessible enough to newcomers and younger players (especially when you have universally appealing and family-friendly franchises that Nintendo is known for). It doesn't worry me, and in fact, is necessary to ensuring these games stay relevant and don't become esoteric or lose what makes them great in the first place. While Let's Go Pikachu/Eevee hasn't truly grabbed me, as a lifelong Zelda/Mario fan, I very much enjoyed BOTW and Odyssey. BOTW is GOTG tier. Achieving success in this way must not be easy.

Edit: And I think BOTW proves that you can create something that is not casual in its approach and still end up with something wildly popular. I hope we see something similar with Metroid Prime 4.

 

[NeonStars]

Everyone loves BOTW sure. But it's universal appeal is notable - considering the franchise never had that before. The complex intertwining dungeons were all removed and replaced with quick puzzle shrines, the most interesting side quest involves you just collecting wood, you could almost count the variety of monsters on your two hands. That's not to discount what the game does right, but we can all agree that they made an effort to make it a more approachable Zelda game.

Then it happened to 3D Mario. Odyssey removes most of the lengthy platforming that used to be so great in 3D Mario and replaces it for the most part with Moons that are often far too easy and quick to obtain.

And then it happened to Pokemon. Although you could argue we are still getting another game, the changes they made to the basic formula in Let's Go are pretty baffling; like removing wild battles or gate-keeping the Gyms. There is no explanation for this other than what they did in the previous two games, make it easier and more approachable.

Super Mario Party also axed features left and right and dumbed down the entire core game in general. A lazy release, or continuing the trend, or both.

Does this not worry anyone else? I'm becoming very apprehensive about core Nintendo titles which is not something that usually happens. Even their Wii-era games had more depth in many ways.

Click to shrink...

The notion that BOTW is a "casualized" Zelda is laughable, considering its the only one in the past 20 years that doesnt hold you hand.

And 3D World and Odyssey are two completely different games trying to accomplish different things. Bad thread.

 

[ILikeFeet]

Mario: the former Bastion of Hardcore Gaming

Truly the Dark Souls of its time

 

[JINX]

BOTW and Odyssey are casualised compared to previous entries.... really? It's the opposite tbh.

 

[Deleted member 8791]

Did not expect to see BotW and Mario Odyssey as big parts of this thread.

 

[bye]

LOL you complain BOTW is casualized?

Play Skyward sword, or Twilight Princess, or Wind Waker and tell me that again

BOTW is the hardest Zelda released since Zelda 2. You just have nostalgia bias

Click to shrink...

Tell me again how BOTW is even remotely hard.

You die a lot? How does that set you back?

Maybe we have a different definition of what difficulty is. Difficulty in 3D Zelda has never been measured on enemies, really. And I think most would agree Majora is the most difficult for every reason other than that.

 

[steviestar3]

This thread is fucking awful lol.

 

[TheMoon]

Is this 2008 lol

"casualization"

This thing you say is happening isn't actually happening.

 

[808s & Villainy]

Tell me again how BOTW is even remotely hard.

You die a lot? How does that set you back?

Click to shrink...

What does that have to do with difficulty? Dying a lot is a sign of difficulty, not whatever arbitrary checkpoint the game returns you to upon starting up again

If you play a platformer where it's next to impossible to die, but if you die once it starts you at the very beginning, does that suddenly make it a difficult platformer?

 

[Jbone115]

BOTW... casualized?! WTF am I reading.

 

[Velocity:Design:Comfort]

Sale go up Nintendo bad...sale go down Nintendo bad!

 

[Hella]

BotW is the most mechanically dense, and the biggest, a Zelda game has ever been.

I reject this OP's premise.

 

[Glio]

This thread looks like 10 years ago, not 2018

 

[Raijinto]

You might want to be careful using the 'L' word as readily as you just did, it has a stigma around here and rightfully so.

 

[Danzflor]

*puts a couple games on mobile and makes their main IP more accesible to more people*

"FUCKING NINTENDO TRANSFORMING INTO CASUAL DEVS smh"

I really dislike this gatekeeping mentality, videogames (as all entertainment) are for everyone. And also, SURPRISE, they make more money that way than with any niche "hardcore" title, a SHOCKER, I know. Want a challenge? There always be a Souls-like game for you if Nintendo isn't your thing.

Bayonetta 3 and Metroid Prime 4 are on their way, just relax.

 

[NeonStars]

Tell me again how BOTW is even remotely hard.

You die a lot? How does that set you back?

Click to shrink...

Its the only 3D Zelda where you even have a chance of dying for one.

If you want to look at a casualized Zelda, look at Windwaker. I think people forget how bad the dungeons in that game were.

 

[Mafro]

This thread is fucking awful lol.

Click to shrink...

OP's having a 'mare.

 

[Tathanen]

Tell me again how BOTW is even remotely hard.

You die a lot? How does that set you back?

Maybe we have a different definition of what difficulty is. Difficulty in 3D Zelda has never been measured on enemies, really. And I think most would agree Majora is the most difficult for every reason other than that.

Click to shrink...

Difficulty is not defined by punishment.

 

[low-G]

Is this 1994? Because this is how I felt in late 1994.

It has literally been a constant for the past 20+ years.

 

[Spinluck]

BoTW is literally the antithesis to hand holding in any form, there is so many different ways to tackle the objectives and combat in the game.

 

[Deleted member 10629]

Its the only 3D Zelda where you even have a chance of dying for one.

If you want to look at a casualized Zelda, look at Windwaker. I think people forget how bad the dungeons in that game were.

Click to shrink...

I died on the Great Plateau more times than on the past 5 Zelda games I've played.

 

[Nitpicker_Red]

Breath of the Wild is not casualized Zelda, it's probably the hardest since Majora's Mask.
[...]

Click to shrink...

I died on the Great Plateau more times than on the past 5 Zelda games I've played.

Click to shrink...

Killing you often doesn't make it necessarily harder.
Failure states with low cost aren't as punishing. Be it loss of resource, loss of progress, loss of time... (which all more or less obey the same rule in game design)
It's game design 202.

 

[ghibli99]

Tell me again how BOTW is even remotely hard.

You die a lot? How does that set you back?

Click to shrink...

Minimizing difficulty down to this is not going to set this thread off in the right direction.

 

[Elfotografoalocado]

The idea that BOTW, or Mario Odyssey, or Mario Kart 8, or Splatoon 2, or Xenoblade 2, or any other game released by Nintendo on the Switch is more "casualized" than the previous iterations is laughable.
Who even talks about "casuals" anymore? Since when is the Switch a system for "casuals" when it's exactly the opposite, and a massive shift in marketing by Nintendo?

 

[Deleted member 1413]

Difficulty is not defined by punishment.

Click to shrink...

super meat boy casual garbo. When you die you respawn like a second later. #lazy

 

[Courage]

And Odyssey Mario is easily, unarguably, the most capable one yet. The game literally has a guidebook because of the number of moves and techniques he has available. People like to fixate on the easy to collect moons and pretend that those are all the game offers when in reality they're there for more casual/beginner players to progress. There are still just as many moons tied to complex stages and platforming challenges as in previous titles

Click to shrink...

This especially always bugs me. The same criticisms get thrown at Mario 64 as if it's just a barren, flat collectathon with no creative platforming ideas within those worlds. Just because there's exploration and non-linearity doesn't mean platforming takes a back seat, if anything the skill ceiling for actual platforming in those games is higher than the linear obstacle course 3D Mario games.

 

[JimJamJones]

but we can all agree that they made an effort to make it a more approachable Zelda game

Click to shrink...

 

[Opa-Opa]

Super Mario World was such a casual game compared to Mario 3, those airships, man - took me 6 months to pass them! And they gave a map to Metroid... those fucking casuals that can't draw...hate them

 

[Tbm24]

Tell me again how BOTW is even remotely hard.

You die a lot? How does that set you back?

Click to shrink...

It can be if you're like me and decided to just explore as much as you could and only dumping points in stamina(or w/e it's called that lets you climb longer). I found myself in tons of scenarios I likely weren't meant to be in but got through anyway and felt great doing it. Twas difficult for a good while, given the game didn't direct me away from any of this stuff, game isn't a cake walk. Unless I missed magical arrows guiding me around a preferred path that was easy?

 

[Deleted member 3017]

If being more approachable than previous games makes something casual, Bloodborne is a casual game.

 

[Discokuningas]

These games aren't casual at all. Actually they are going away from being casual. I don't even have to explain Zelda here but even if Odyssey isn't that hard before you hit the end of the story, so half of the game really, it has very hardcore oriented moveset and freedom of move. Casual doesn't mean easy, and easy doesn't mean casual. Neither does approachable. Yes Nintendo also make very casual games and thank God for that.

 

[Deleted member 6730]

Did we step back a decade or something?