The College Dropout Crisis (NYT Opinion)

[ezrarh]

I'm gonna say we have too many people going to college that shouldn't be going to college. It's not even good at building human capital for things businesses need nowadays. Most of the things you learn end up being useless or something you can quickly search online. It's main purpose is to signify your capabilities as an individual so if you don't graduate, regardless of what you learned, it'll make you worse off with debt and lost time from working.

 

[Parch]

It was a real struggle for me and I just stopped going to the first university after a while and worked full-time. About 5 years later I was wiser and more mature and I was able to finish college at a different school.

Click to shrink...

This should be the starting strategy for more people for a couple of reasons. It's a fair argument that teens and early 20s is the worst time in life to be dealing with university just because of the maturity factor. It's a very different situation than living with the parents and grade school. That sudden increase in freedom is not conducive to mature behavior at that age.

Another reason is financial. Working full time and saving for a few years can significantly lower the amount of student debt required. Needing 100% financing for university and going that far into debt at an early age is a lousy way to start a life.

Work and save for a few years to mature more and help finance the education seems like a pretty smart plan to me.

 

[Kelsdesu]

I'm just taking college at my own pace. I have my AS and I'm working on my BS a couple classes per semester at a time because I'm working full time in my intended career field already. So it'll be at least two years before I'm done, and that's alright with me. It's better than burning out and dropping out.

Click to shrink...

This is exactly where I am. I have my AS in Programming and I actually took off 2 semesters because of burn out. Along with another poster mentioned the emphasis on memorizing formulas and what not is daunting as hell.

 

[Deception]

This is why I am eternally grateful for community colleges and the valuable lessons they taught me about managing my work-load with real-life responsibilities (work, social life) while also being less pressure financially. I'm fairly confident had I went straight to my 4 year uni after high school then I would have dropped out after the 1st year. Instead, I did 2 years of free community college to knock out all my pre-reqs, where I was able to mature as a person and student and then transferred to my eventual alma mater where I did 2 and half years of courses to finish out my degree. The person I was at 21 was much more versed to handle all of the crazy things that come with uni and coming from someone who had a 1.8 GPA in HS, I can say it changed my life.

 

[Socivol]

My first semester in college was a disaster, I still somehow managed to have a good GPA though. I was completely unprepared from my high school experience for college. I was really lucky and able to get it together because I didn't have a parental safety net to fall back on, but it was really tough. I don't think we talk enough about that transition. I used to be a teacher and the oldest group of kids I taught started college last year. I keep in touch with them and hearing how many were depressed and stressed out after their first semester was really crushing.

 

[Pau]

I'm very lucky that my parents were able to support me going back to college after dropping out due to depression. I imagine it's very difficult for most people to get back on track no matter why they left in the first place.

 

[Dead Guy]

Yep. College will kick your ass 5 ways from Sunday if you aren't prepared for it. I honestly place a ton of the fault with high schools these days because they don't properly prepare you for what college is gonna be like. At least in my case, all the effort was placed on trying to get the people at the bottom of the class a high enough mark that they could actually graduate. And like fair enough I can understand why but it leaves those at the top of the class just twisting in the wind. I breezed through highschool but that didn't help me at all when I got to college. Thankfully I had one English teacher who did teach us to write a proper college essay because without that I would have been dead in all my English classes.

 

[Ryan.]

As someone pursuing a masters in student affairs and working in higher ed I wish more counselors and other high school staff would understand that a student doesn't have to go to an expensive 4 year state university. Educate them on trade schools, community colleges, or cheaper public regional universities.

I feel like I didn't get that when I was in high school and it took some friends I graduated with awhile for them to find something that stuck.

 

[LosDaddie]

I know people that dedicated their lives to school and still couldn't find a good job in their fields. What's the point? In the end, it's who you know that matters most. Connections. I actually have friends that have been fired from a job because one of the bosses' nephews or something took their place. Obviously they don't tell you this, but when you see who they hired after they let you go, that's when you realize the way the world. School is bullshit.

Click to shrink...

Speaking as a licensed engineer, my degree itself isn't worth all that much. Even a high GPA doesn't mean much to me when I'm interviewing recent grads.

What I want to see on a recent grad's resume is if the person was/is involved in any engineering groups. If they did any internships. What certifications they have earned, or are in the process of earning.

The degree is only a starting point. Not the destination.

You're correct in that having connections definitely helps, but I think in this day with LinkedIn, it's never been easier to network.

 

[Kill3r7]

What did you study? I don't see how Doctors, lawyers, engineers, scientists, etc could have success without the skills you actually learn in college.

I use the advanced math and systems analysis skills that I learned in college almost every day of my life as an engineer. No way you can just teach yourself those skills faster or in a more efficient manner than what a college course can teach you.

Click to shrink...

To be fair, you can drop lawyers off that list but anything involving STEM is more or less a no go. Especially the hard sciences and engineering.

As someone pursuing a masters in student affairs and working in higher ed I wish more counselors and other high school staff would understand that a student doesn't have to go to an expensive 4 year state university. Educate them on trade schools, community colleges, or cheaper public regional universities.

I feel like I didn't get that when I was in high school and it took some friends I graduated with awhile for them to find something that stuck.

Click to shrink...

A 4 year state university degree should not cost as much as it does.

 

[Tlaloc]

Some high school administrators have also started focusing on the problem, in part out of frustration. Over the years, they have watched their hard-working, talented graduates struggle in college.

Click to shrink...

When I worked in higher ed professors would always complain about how unprepared kids were coming in from HS. They would have to take time to teach them things they should have been taught in HS or earlier.

I was very nearly a college dropout, but I was able to squeak through to the end and felt like I just barely did it. Public school years was always very easy for me, and I was nearly a straight A student the whole way, but then I struggled really bad in College for a bunch of different reasons.

I have to imagine this kind of thing is quite common for a lot of people, yeah.

Click to shrink...

That's how my cousin was too. He thought he was so smart because he coasted through school getting A's and B's finished towards the top his class. Got a full scholarship to uni and dropped out after two semesters. He thought he could pull the same shit in uni instead he got a rude wake up call. Sometimes he talks about getting back into school but will make excuses about working full time and having a family and bills. Which I always call him out on, his issue is being lazy not wanting to put the time and effort into required to thrive in college. My wife and I went back to school after we had our kid and were working fulltime and paying bills. We sacraificed a lot to do it and we're still continuing our education.

 

[Coinspinner]

I didn't know how college worked. I went into it thinking it was like highschool, that I'd be on rails and would be told everything I needed to know. That went badly.

Edit: Also I somehow got into college without what were apparantly basic math skills. I'd never seen a square root symbol aside from on my calculator, I had no idea what it even was.

 

[Blade24070]

When I worked in higher ed professors would always complain about how unprepared kids were coming in from HS. They would have to take time to teach them things they should have been taught in HS or earlier.

That's how my cousin was too. He thought he was so smart because he coasted through school getting A's and B's finished towards the top his class. Got a full scholarship to uni and dropped out after two semesters. He thought he could pull the same shit in uni instead he got a rude wake up call. Sometimes he talks about getting back into school but will make excuses about working full time and having a family and bills. Which I always call him out on, his issue is being lazy not wanting to put the time and effort into required to thrive in college. My wife and I went back to school after we had our kid and were working fulltime and paying bills. We sacraificed a lot to do it and we're still continuing our education.

Click to shrink...

I wouldn't call that being lazy... good for you and your wife, but not everyone wants or can handle the huge stress of school on top of everything else. I mean in the general sense, I don't know your brother obviously.

 

[Euler007]

Canada/Quebec here. High school was way too easy for me, never had to study. I would complete the math homework while the teacher was wrapping up his speech or within a few minutes in the corridors. It felt that the main objective was to get everyone to pass, and get the highest score on the standardized government tests for the school. It got real hard, real fast in pre-U (cegep) and university. It was a bloodbath for people that realized they weren't that great at Academia. A lot would have been better served if high school had been harder and they'd been steered towards trades and such as a result.

 

[Deleted member 2226]

Not to say the people here who say they breezed through school weren't intelligent, but from the perspective of doing writing workshops with freshmen most of them wouldn't have graduated from my high school. Our K-12 educational standards are pretty bad and they're sending kids to college who really aren't ready for it, which is only compounding the debt issue and stuff at the college level.

 

[Wafflinson]

Currently a senior in college with no real incentive to graduate. I can no longer receive financial aid without another private loan ($70 grand in the hole). I've already learned most of the essential skills and can probably land a decent gig with more connections and internships.

More and more companies are starting to value skill sets rather than a piece of paper. It's so easy to learn just about anything you want online. I probably wouldn't have gone to college if I knew that was the case (mostly self taught)

Click to shrink...

I see no sign of this whatsoever. The opposite in fact as a higher percentage of people have degrees.

 

[KingK]

I was very nearly a college dropout, but I was able to squeak through to the end and felt like I just barely did it. Public school years was always very easy for me, and I was nearly a straight A student the whole way, but then I struggled really bad in College for a bunch of different reasons.

I have to imagine this kind of thing is quite common for a lot of people, yeah.

Click to shrink...

This was me. Valedictorian in high school, but it was a shitty school that didn't offer a single AP course. I go into college already behind my peers because of that, so they schedule me 18 credit hours to catch up. On top of that, I had to pay for everything myself/through loans, so I was working 25-35 hours a week in fast food, in addition to classes. I had a couple bad semesters where my mental health, and subsequently my grades, slid to dangerously low levels, and I seriously considered dropping out. I managed to turn things around in my last 3 semesters and finished pretty strong, but it was a huge struggle.

Having a high school that actually cared about academics as much as football, and not having to worry about money and working a job through school would have been HUGE burdens lifted from me. The financial stress is just fucking unbearable and occupied so much of my mental space. It's crazy how much my mental health improved once I was finally out of college.

 

[KingK]

University faculty member here who teaches a lot of freshmen. Honestly, one of the biggest issues tends to be fear and shame. I've had students more or less vanish after one bad paper or project, not because they couldn't improve but that they'd never known before how to ask for help and couldn't bring themselves to do so now. Our tutoring and writing facilities on campus never get used as fully as they could and it's not due to a lack of advertising. It's similar to the stigma surrounding mental health: if you're really "supposed" to be here, you shouldn't need to ask for support. Things spiral quickly from there.

We've tried adding extra initiatives on campus, and I actually require a one-on-one meeting with me in those entry classes just to ensure I can actually talk to each student and get a better feel for how they work. And I think that's crucial: there has to be some sense of human connection there whenever possible, that we actually care about the larger well-being and identity of our students beyond how the assignments turn out. A lot do. Many don't, more than there should be. But as long as grades remain the primary factor about how people feel they are not just evaluated, but seen, by faculty, the more that cycle will remain in place.

Click to shrink...

Can only speak for myself here, but it was hard as fuck to make use of those tutoring/after hours assistance opportunities when you're broke and need to work 35 hours a week at McDonald's on top of your 18 credit hours.

And for many classes, those tutoring/TA office hours opportunities are the only way you're going to actually be taught the material, because the professor doesn't give a shit and just give a half-assed lecture where they just recite bullet points off a PowerPoint.

 

[Pet]

I have ADHD.

Finished college, finished graduate school, but it was only possible because I had family support and prior knowledge/social background (everyone knows that you are supposed to go to college, then graduate school, then a "good" job.)

If I wasn't born into the privileges I have, I doubt I would have finished either one.

 

[Lentic]

In high school I got away with sparse studying, but in college I had to learn how to use my time efficiently. Learning to schedule chunks of time and trusting the process was kind of hard at first. I tend to worry a lot, so the first few semesters I had to just take a deep breathe and study. There's also the anxiety you get from looking at your schedule and realizing how much little free time you're going to have.

Scheduling your time is absolutely key if you want to maximize your free time and remain sane.

 

[Starwing]

In high school I got away with sparse studying, but in college I had to learn how to use my time efficiently. Learning to schedule chunks of time and trusting the process was kind of hard at first. I tend to worry a lot, so the first few semesters I had to just take a deep breathe and study. There's also the anxiety you get from looking at your schedule and realizing how much little free time you're going to have.

Scheduling your time is absolutely key if you want to maximize your free time and remain sane.

Click to shrink...

Yep, I just graduated from NYU yesterday and I had to learn and adapt to this pretty quickly while I was there. I was ultimately responsible for my own learning and how I utilized my time to study. And boy, did they love to throw wrenches in my schedule.

 

[Leunamus]

I originally went to a pretty decent college in 2001, then just gave up halfway through. Straight f's. I wrote one hell of a readmissions essay a few years later and somehow got in again, same result. I somehow.. SOMEHOW did it a third time, same result. Community college, 3 times? I think? Over the years. Same result. I eventually got the message. I have neither the discipline nor the direction to make a go of college. So no career, no real money, just drifting from bullshit job to bullshit job for the rest of life.
.

Click to shrink...

My God. We're the same person.

 

[Malajax]

I see no sign of this whatsoever. The opposite in fact as a higher percentage of people have degrees.

Click to shrink...

Need a college degree to get a job? These companies say skills matter more

But now some workforce organizations, researchers and regional civic leaders are pushing back — persuading companies to look beyond academic credentials and to instead hire people based on their skills. A growing number of businesses are listening. In the past few years, Apple, Google, IBM and other high-profile companies have stripped the bachelor's degree requirement from many of their positions.

Click to shrink...

Anecdotal, but supporting evidence.

 

[Necromanti]

I originally went to a pretty decent college in 2001, then just gave up halfway through. Straight f's. I wrote one hell of a readmissions essay a few years later and somehow got in again, same result. I somehow.. SOMEHOW did it a third time, same result. Community college, 3 times? I think? Over the years. Same result. I eventually got the message. I have neither the discipline nor the direction to make a go of college. So no career, no real money, just drifting from bullshit job to bullshit job for the rest of life.

The shitty thing is, I sometimes get a wild hair to try yet again because I still feel like I'm capable of graduating, but.. I mean. The body of evidence is overwhelming that I can't, or won't. Even if I went and somehow stuck with it, I still have no clue what I'd do after all this time. That's just reality.

Click to shrink...

Did you ever get screened for a learning disability or something like ADHD? There are many very capable people that fall through the cracks due to things out of their control and a lack of support to be able to recognize and manage what caused things to go wrong.

 

[turbobrick]

Did you ever get screened for a learning disability or something like ADHD? There are many very capable people that fall through the cracks due to things out of their control and a lack of support to be able to recognize and manage what caused things to go wrong.

Click to shrink...

I'm one of these people where ADD really makes college hard. I did manage to get a degree, and almost have another one, but failed many classes along the way. I also barely scrape by in a lot of them and studying is almost impossible, but luckily I can pass most classes with little to no studying. Though I feel very unprepared for any job I apply for.

 

[GamerJM]

Had I not grown up in a well off family that encouraged me to stay in college I almost certainly would have dropped out. Of the five and a half years I was in college for, two of those I had basically stopped caring because I had failed so poorly the semester prior and became so very very depressed as a result of that. I went on probation twice. I remember having the conversation with my mom about wanting to drop out and study at a community college for a little while, but she was adamant that I do whatever I can to stay in.

I have a learning disability but I had the proper documentation and accommodations for it and I still had trouble. To this day there are certain things that I just don't understand how people like me can deal with, like classes that move at a quick pace.

I eventually graduated by changing my major to something I could do well in. I don't know how big of a deal that is. I do think that choosing a major that you'll enjoy on SOME level is probably a good decision, since a lot of people end up working in something unrelated to their major anyways.

Also, graduation rates are probably important, but I suspect that they're highly correlated with other things. My university had an exceptionally high graduation rate but it was also primarily attended by rich white kids.

 

[Kangi]

HS was a waking nightmare for me and I even made... unsuccessful attempts to drop out. I declared myself a poor fit for academia and turned my nose up at college... only to do a 180 some ways down the road and pursue it anyway.

College has gone far better for me, and I attribute that largely to wanting it and having that confidence. If I got shoved in right after my disastrous HS years I'd have crashed and burned, 100%.

 

[Nothing Loud]

I breezed through grade school (K-12) being smart (and lazy). Tests were easy for me and I did the bare minimum of work outside of class. Then college stopped me in my tracks because it was less about intelligence and more about putting in the work. At that point I didn't know how to put in the work and I had never needed to develop the willpower to make myself work on my own time. It was a real struggle for me and I just stopped going to the first university after a while and worked full-time. About 5 years later I was wiser and more mature and I was able to finish college at a different school.

Grade school does not really prepare you for college. At least it didn't back then.

Click to shrink...

Yup, I saw this. I was the opposite; I had such good work ethic that I blazed past my classmates who came in from high school with perfect GPAs and AP credit. Saw them fail and retake classes I aced in college.

The American K-12 system is very bad and most kids exiting that system are not capable of succeeding above a C average at a typical university.

 

[Macam]

I breezed through grade school (K-12) being smart (and lazy). Tests were easy for me and I did the bare minimum of work outside of class. Then college stopped me in my tracks because it was less about intelligence and more about putting in the work. At that point I didn't know how to put in the work and I had never needed to develop the willpower to make myself work on my own time. It was a real struggle for me and I just stopped going to the first university after a while and worked full-time. About 5 years later I was wiser and more mature and I was able to finish college at a different school.

Grade school does not really prepare you for college. At least it didn't back then.

Click to shrink...

All of this. IME, community college was a far better preparatory environment, whereas grade school was basically day care for teenagers.

 

[Dremorak]

Man, I thought Americas biggest problems were healthcare and government... over here in NZ I think around half my friends went to university, and the other half either did apprenticeships, or other kind of work while learning jobs. Pretty mich everyone ended up doing something they like (as far as I'm aware). My wife has a nursing degree and have 2 years of animation courses and we paid both of our debts off in the first 5 years of marriage. NZ government covers the interest on student loans, and now they have a scheme where your first year of study is covered too. All of this plus right now my daughter is sick and we weren't sure if it was serious or not so we just took her down to the accident and medical centre, she gets checked out for free. No insurance needed or anything. I really dont know how anyone can survive in the US. I'm pretty sure we would still be in debt from student loans and my wife would have medical bills we would never be able to pay. We certainly wouldnt be able to afford a mortgage.

 

[floridaguy954]

College is way too expensive for me. I could never be able to pay that off it's just not worth it.

Click to shrink...

Agreed, college is expensive.

Me being out of work earlier this year caused me to postpone going to school for a year just because I need time to build the funds to pay for my classes.

I am fortunate that I have completed a practical nursing program (technical school for the win) and have a decent hourly wage (I'm in the $20s/hr range) so I'm not just operating on a high school diploma .

 

[Dr. Zoidberg]

The American K-12 system is very bad and most kids exiting that system are not capable of succeeding above a C average at a typical university.

Click to shrink...

Agreed. Part of the problem is that grade schools are very reluctant to fail kids. Not only is their funding tied up with making sure the kids pass and do well on the standardized tests, but a lot of kids simply don't have the aptitude, home life, or work ethic to deal with a tougher experience. They don't want to torpedo these kids' futures by denying them a HS diploma which is critical. So while High School should be a lot tougher and more work-focused to prepare them for college, it might also increase the amount of HS drop-outs. Then you get into having to separate kids based on whether you think they are going to college or could make it, etc. It's not easy.

All of this. IME, community college was a far better preparatory environment

Click to shrink...

Agreed. When I returned to school I took the first two years at a local Tech college. In terms of difficulty it was like a halfway point between HS and University, so it helped ease me into good practices and work ethic. I finished my first two years there with an associate's degree and then transferred to Uni for the remaining two years to get my bachelor's. It was cheaper, easier, and better for me. Plus I ended up with two degrees instead of one.

 

[Nothing Loud]

Agreed. Part of the problem is that grade schools are very reluctant to fail kids. Not only is their funding tied up with making sure the kids pass and do well on the standardized tests, but a lot of kids simply don't have the aptitude, home life, or work ethic to deal with a tougher experience. They don't want to torpedo these kids' futures by denying them a HS diploma which is critical. So while High School should be a lot tougher and more work-focused to prepare them for college, it might also increase the amount of HS drop-outs. Then you get into having to separate kids based on whether you think they are going to college or could make it, etc. It's not easy.



Agreed. When I returned to school I took the first two years at a local Tech college. In terms of difficulty it was like a halfway point between HS and University, so it helped ease me into good practices and work ethic. I finished my first two years there with an associate's degree and then transferred to Uni for the remaining two years to get my bachelor's. It was cheaper, easier, and better for me. Plus I ended up with two degrees instead of one.

Click to shrink...

Yup. My husband is a special ed teacher here in Texas and the district has a district-wide rule that kids are not allowed to make a D or below. Imagine that.

 

[Nothing Loud]

Edit: accidental double post