MOD EDIT: With the approval of the OP we're adding articles and changing the title so that people will be able to catch up on and discuss the Guild Wars 2 firings and ArenaNet controversy. Previous threads on the subject have not gone well, so if this thread is going to last, it will need to be more tightly moderated. Please read and very carefully adhere to the following reminders and guidelines. Penalties in this thread may be tougher than usual for the sake of keeping the discussion civil. 1. Do not dismiss, downplay, or attempt to justify the ongoing harassment by hate movements or its role in the backlash. 2. Do not derail the thread with broad generalizations about journalism or specific media outlets. 3. Do not level inflammatory accusations, insults, or hostility at other users. For more information on the controversy that spawned this article, check the links below: Additional background information: Original OP: i thought this piece was funny and biting satire: (more at the source) http://www.pointandclickbait.com/2018/07/arenanet-mike-obrien-official-statement/ Edit by hydrophilic attack: Below is the statement released two days ago by game workers unite about this incident (bolded emphasis mine) there was also a statement by the international game developers association about what questions workers in the industry should ask their employers to make sure that expectations about employee social media use are clear, see the quote below
A take on recent firings of the arenanet employees. I guess arenanet claimed to be progressive and now we are here.
This seems like a disingenuous and unfair take on what happened. A developer responded to a polite post about Guild Wars 2 with outright hostility. Did she deserve to be sacked immediately? I would say that that was unfair of anet, but it is well within their right to fire an employee for representing the company in a way that makes the company unhappy.
Yup, I can easily see this from two angles as well. Personally I wouldn't mind if I was in charge, atleast not so much that I would fire someone over this. Gamers tend to be fucking awful, so I'm quite fine with it they get lashed back a bit (though the guy in question wasn't exactly acting like an asshole). I wouldn't just brush it off either, but to my understanding the people who were fired were given an option to a formal apology which they denied (correct me if I'm wrong). So it's absolutely understandable and also reasonable to fire them. I assume that with an apology they would still have their jobs. Edit: Apparently no option for an apology was given.
Gamers have responded to the firing by sending requests to multiple companies asking them to fire female employees so it's pretty clear how it's being interpreted. Game devs need a union.
If you are on social media commenting on your company's product on a public Twitter account with your face and your company's name on it, you are representing the company. Doesn't matter that you are "off the clock". Go off on a customer and bring the company bad press and expect to get sacked. It is shocking and sad people in this day and age still don't get that what you say on social media matter both personally and professionally.
I am extremely pro-union and I agree with you that she shouldn't have been fired, however, I do believe anet's reason for doing so is not totally without merit unlike the harassment those other companies are receiving. I really do feel for her because as a minority I often find myself questioning whether someone's intentions are genuine or steeped in homophobia or racism, etc. I definitely think having a conversation would've been better for all involved. However, she was posting about the game on a public twitter where she identifies herself as someone working on the game. So I can see anet's side on this.
Areanet probably are progressive. There's a lot of misogyny in gaming. Two separate things. Just because someone: a) was fired for being very unreasonable to a prominent community member (who was respectfully providing feedback) and putting her employees reputation at risk b) had a track record of saying unsavoury, brand-damaging things (see total biscuit quotes) c) on two occasions fallaciously tried to link her sex into it as a relevant factor (against the community member and her CEO) d) dragged back the cause of true feminism due to fake claims muddying the waters against genuine grief.. .. means we should conflate the two. Dodgy reasoning. And more evidence of the harm that she's done.
Those are the fringe crazies for the most part though. Like, they're absolutely horrible, but I'm not sure what can really be done about them / if we can lump them in with the community at large. For instance, the 'we can probably fire anyone' reddit comment that was quoted by a bunch of outlets was downvoted and then deleted.
Being (somewhat understandably) rude to one person isn't really worth getting fired, especially after all the controversy that caused. I mean all the dude said to a professional writer was "But what about branching dialogue? :)" and while I disagree, I can understand getting annoyed at that.
and this is the problem as someone living in a scandinavian country i am baffled by the non-existent employee protection some us states have
LMAO "true feminism." Yes a woman being fired for being slightly rude to a presumptuous man on the internet is such a goddamned victory for true feminism. That's why we're sending requests to every game dev asking them to fire female developers who have made us mad. For true feminism.
Not only that, the user who made that comment admitted he was trolling and he is personally against the firings.
There's a lot of misogyny in the world, that's a fact. Perhaps if it was a guy replying in the same tone, he wouldn't have been fired. However, if she was my employee, I would have had a serious talk after seeing some of her history of replying and set things straight. That's no way to treat a customer/whatever.
Yeah but judging by how a ton of devs shat on the VA strike for better conditions I don't think they'd welcome a union with open arms.
I'm surprised people are suddenly so adamant about defending shitty behavior on Twitter. This is hardly the first time someone got sacked for it.
Maybe it really is a cultural difference that colors my perception on this. You've really given me something to think about! :)
Ah thanks for correcting, I followed the already closed thread a bit and remember seeing it there. I just tried to fact check this myself, but haven't indeed seen it mentioned by Price or Fries. I'll edit my earlier comment. Edit: I probably confused it with Polygon article which suggested that ArenaNet could have apologized on behalf of the company, not that she could have done it personally. That's what I would have suggested if I was in charge, apology from Price and she could have still brought up the issues she faces as a female developer (as do others) which made her react so harshly. No firing needed then, imo. That wouldn't have silenced the angry mob, but I think the person who was insulted over this would have understood and accepted the apology.
This. She was being extremely rude and hostile towards someone who was genuine, polite and meant no harm . Gender or social issue has nothing to do with her being fired, you can't just defend her action simply because she is a progressive feminist, I am a progressive feminist too, doesn't mean I can just yell at people and accuse them of mansplaining whenever I feel like it. I respect all the hardworking female in this industry (seriously you are awesome!) but the fact is she was being extremely unreasonable and immature, that's the reason why she was fired. Just because the company is supposed to be progressive doesn't mean they can't fire her. Progressive doesn't equal to prejudice, and it shouldn't be used as an exemption.
*cue the onslaught of posters who still doesn't see that Arena.Net has catered to a hate mob and the implications it has on all game developers*
We can argue the toss over whether she was slightly rude or unnecessarily aggressive given the context. Or whether he was presumptuous or respectful. However there's no argument about prior behaviour and the latest incident and putting the brand at risk, which is reliant on it's community. It would have been very odd if the employer hadn't have done something. There should also be no argument about it *not* being about the fact that she was a woman (a longer standing male employee was fired for lesser behaviour and she could offer no evidence of sexist behaviour) and she tried to play the sexism card. Thus "crying wolf" and undermining legitimate complaints about actual sexism that occurs. And generating a climate of fear where any reasonable behaviour can have "sexist!" tags applied to it, making a shit situation even more polemic. What's your point?
Except there was a perfectly valid reason. Even if I do not personally agree with the firing; I would ask the employee to apologize, and if done, move on with no futher action.
You can't just say the words "I am a progressive feminist" and automatically be one. It's determined by your actions, and in this case you're defending a company firing a woman because a crowd of rabid gamergaters got mad when she was slightly rude to a rando who thought no one had ever suggested "branching dialog" before.
Yes but you see she offended a man's honor and you know that is the worst possible thing a human being can do. Believe me, I'm a feminist. Also did you know she once expressed relief at the death of a man who called down hate mobs on females in gaming. Clearly she's a monster.
There was prior form re: total biscuit quotes. The company is heavily dependent on goodwill from it's community. Any company expects someone who represent their brand by either wearing the uniform (in and out of work) or going online and having their name attached to your account to behave and not put the brand at risk. Do you think that if someone (say) in a Walmart shirt was put on YouTube accosting someone at a bus stop, they'd not be fired by said company? Same thing.
Even if you don't think the initial spat had a gendered component to it, the hate mob that ANet immediately capitulated to sure did.
Being "progressive" isn't a get out of jail-free card for your behavior online. Make you company look bad while on social media an expect the possibly that you could get fired.
Yeah. But again two totally separate points. That's the irony. Person who falsely claims sexism in a situation where there is none then receives a bucket load of it. Some would even call it Karma, but I wouldn't wish that mob on anyone.
This is the worst analogy for "Being slightly rude to someone offering unsolicited job advice" that I've ever heard. Also I hope a Walmart worker would not be fired if they responded rudely to a customer who kept walking up to them and telling them how they should do their job.
She was fired for being hostile and unprofessional, it has nothing to do with the mobs or even the gamergaters, sure they want her fired, but that's not why she was fired and you know it. Sure, firing her seems a bit extreme, but it's not entirely crazy. My father used to own a company before he retired and let me tell you there's no way he will tolerate any employee who yells at his customer for no good reason. I am all for progressive and equality (don't believe me? just look at my posts regarding the whole BFV ''controversy'') but you have to understand that there's a real world out there, a world run by business and money, a world where being unprofessional and rude gets you fired.
Anet put out a statement recently, but it hasn't been posted since all threads on the situation were locked. Might as well drop it here since it's relevant.
I highly doubt that's how it went. You are talking about a person who had told transphobes and other bigots in his fan base to fuck off (not just once), as they weren't welcomed as an audience.
I mean they add as much as people pretending to be progressive while supporting the removal of livelihood for women who offend an insane misogynist hate mob. That's kind of the whole point of the satire in the OP.
An analogy is only meant to be representative, not literal. The point is any company expects standards of behaviour whilst you represent the brand. Two things: - it's a forum. Feedback is to be expected. And it was respectfully done feedback. In my (and the employers), the response wasn't respectful and disproportionate. You clearly don't agree with that, but the point is they do, they have a right to fire someone for that and there's no evidence it was because she was female. Remember that they also fired a longer-term male who was less involved. - There was prior behaviour (see Total Biscuit quotes). Not sure why you're ignoring that.
Because the VA strike was just a shell game. The game industry offered the three main things that the Actors union wanted, the union still was striking. The actors union were only really doing it to throw their weight around, they were about to enter negations for film and TV so they wanted to look strong going into it.
Except that literally nobody is defending the hate mob here or suggesting she should get fired because of that. People, both men and women, get fired because of unprofessional and rude social media behavior all the goddamn time. There’s literally no evidence to suggest that she was fired due to the mob and not just being unprofessional
If it was about her past behavior, why did they also fire the dude who defended her? He wasn't even being particularly rude.
Are you being intentionally disingenuous? She offended a respectful significant community member and accused him of mansplaining whilst he was being nothing but respectful. The hate mob kicked in *after* that. She previously said amazingly disrepectful things about a man dying of cancer. Both of these online, with her employers name dragged into the dirt. She and a male colleague then got fired for their actions - no evidence that the firing was related to the reaction of the rampant sexist mob. Not sure why you try to conflate the two to excuse her actions. She then said that her CEO was sexist even though there was no evidence of that. It's bad that the hate mob came out, and once again the idiot, dark side of the web comes to the fore, but that should not be used to excuse her actions or condemn ANet.
