regarding the misinformation in John Teasdale's tweets:
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regarding the misinformation in John Teasdale's tweets:
In case you haven't noticed, the debacle has blown up to be more than just about someone being rude to someone on Twitter.
Let's not start a "actually, this is about ethics in Twitter politeness" narrative.
Such as? Certainly in the video game industry we have numerous examples of people(men) acting like jerks on social media without being fired, and certainly not disciplined publicly.
You're on Twitter.
Why do people think Twitter is a literal safe space?
Especially when you just got answering an Ask Me Anything on one of the biggest sites on the internet and went to Twitter explicitly to talk about what you didn't have time to say.
And when you can make Twitter private and avoid this situation in the first place!
Kind of, yeah? Her being part of ArenaNet isn't just some throwaway comment. She just back on Twitter and it's still on her bio.
Minute details like "you probably shouldn't do shitty things while representing a company" and "Twitter isn't fucking private just because you don't want to talk to people".
Mainstream Reddit is shitty, news at eleven.
If she's going to get shit on by these people regardless of what she's doing, why would being harassed...more??? by those people mean she should avoid consequence for her actions?
They've pretty much become a parody of themselves at this point.
Honestly, even setting aside the whole sexism issue, the fact that this company immediately terminated an employee without any disciplinary history or cause for recourse or appeal over a minor Twitter argument is incredibly disturbing. Unionize the fucking video game industry.
I think considering it's Twitter in 2018 and she's a woman working in games, her being on edge is to be expected and not cause for termination. Warn her or scold her or whatever, don't do throw her out and say "good luck in dealing with assholes."
"Unsolicited responses" on a public twitter thread? Isn't the main point of twitter and social media to get responses from your followers? It would be like posting an OP here on ResetERA and then complaining people replied to it and insulting them for replying.
If she didn't want his comment, block, mute, or report through twitter is the way to go to avoid any of this mess.
(Firing for this one offense seems out of proportion but could be expected. On the other hand Kamiya has been on a block rampage on twitter lately and calling people names etc and he seems to get away with it just fine. Different culture maybe?)
Not commenting on the rest of your post but yes. You are an employee 24/7 on social media of you list your real name and place of work. I graduated college in 2010 and one of the things they had us do was go to lectures about the real world. They had a good 30 minute discussion on social media and how posting whatever you want on there can land you in trouble. It was mostly pictures back then but posts still had the same impact. In fact the lecturer pulled up her employees Facebook page and saw she posted something while working. That was a no no.
I don't think people understand that behavior on social media can land you in trouble. Doesn't matter if you are off or on the clock. I guess most people think it's pictures and such. But nope. The same goes for being rude to an extreme.
Honestly, even setting aside the whole sexism issue, the fact that this company immediately terminated an employee without any disciplinary history or cause for recourse or appeal over a minor Twitter argument is incredibly disturbing. Unionize the fucking video game industry.
YES.
Possibly?
People get fired for their social media postings even when their employer is NOT in their bio. I mean, this notion that you are free to stay whatever you want on social media publicly and think it cannot boomerang back on you offline needs to end.
I mostly mean outside of the industry and the greater narrative of pushing companies to fire. Though there was that Subnautica guy I guess.
The industry is pretty lenient on this and more men probably should be fired.
I'm lost. Reading the exchange, where was the misogyny? From what I can see she turned what could end up being interesting discourse with a fan a bigger issue than it needed to be. That said, ArenaNet's action here may be seen as heavy handed, but as a game developer you need to understand your boundaries.
The comments from the YouTuber did no warrant the response she gave.
The comments from the YouTuber did no warrant the response she gave.
I keep seeing "basically" when people are talking about Deroir's supposed motivations while at the same time Price's unequivocal rudeness is downplayed, sometimes even lauded
Yes, I agree, we do have a problem. The problem is that tweets are short and open-ended enough that anyone can insert whatever intent they want depending on which side of the argument they fall on and, as such, we'll obviously never be able to reach a consensus as everyone here is just seeing what they want to see. You want to see a mysoginist, mansplaining GamerGate cover agent who used his vile subterfuges to conspire against a poor, misunderstood victim who was just trying to fight the evil patriarchy? It's all there for you to do so, even if the reality of the situation is far more nuanced than that.
As a feminist it pains me to see post like this, because it's right, and that is depressing.
For sure. Their handling of the situation is pretty trash.
I do feel like people are putting blame in weird places. My read on this is pretty simple:
* the streamer's comment is top tier painfully stupid, but that's most of what you get as a developer; gamers genuinely don't know shit about game development but talk about it anyway
* Price's response is probably a misread; men don't get these kind of "insights" from players any less, but she's still human and sometimes people are going to flip you off if you say something that stupid to them on any given day
* a shitload of the gaming community is hot garbage and you should expect them to report a defcon 1 ass ache whenever human interaction occurs that isn't kid-gloved
None of the above stuff is actually that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things and any decent community team should have been the ones stepping in and giving direction. This has all the hallmarks of someone NOT trained in communications but with higher authority stepping in to fuck things up further. Especially with the other writer getting terminated.
I agree. This seems super complicated. On one hand, I get it. She was pretty rude and condescending to a not terrible remark while representing her employer in a way. But on the other side, I get the need to go off on some random person telling you how to do your job.
My wife has to deal with this shit all the time with some of her male employees and people that she's seen at her job. She's always remained calm but she rants to me all the time about shit like this. She has someone at her job telling her that she wouldn't understand his current classes. He's getting the degree she's had for a couple years. I've met many women who've had to deal with this same shit. It has to be extremely frustrating.
The media isn't a homogenous blob ... It's a whole bunch of people with different backgrounds researching and reporting on stories. If those varied sources tend to crystalize on a singular narrative, that's not called being biased ... The bias comes from people looking and a whiwh bunch of agreement and going, "Fake news!" simply to dismiss the power of consensus.
After reading over the situation, it's pretty clear that Jessica got herself fired.
She was hurting the company's image with her tweets. Plain and simple. I've had jobs in the past where it's been made very very clear that doing things along those lines could and would cost me my job. Just because you're not "on the clock" doesn't mean you're free to do whatever you want.
She was hurting the company's image with her tweets. Plain and simple. I've had jobs in the past where it's been made very very clear that doing things along those lines could and would cost me my job. Just because you're not "on the clock" doesn't mean you're free to do whatever you want.
At least 50% of the people here would probably say that's fine, yeah.
I mean obviously "hey let me discuss this thing you've been openly talking about" is equivalent to dick pics.
EDIT:
Why are you on ResetERA if they'll ban you for totally justified and totally measured responses? Like Price, right?
It's blown up to where it is now because the likes of GG decided to latch onto it. The whole thing started, like I said, because of her actions.
Specifically related to this question:
If you are posting publicly consumable media on any account that mentions where you work, you should do so knowing you are representing your employer even if you don't intend to.
I reiterate what I said in I think a previous thread (or maybe it's the same thread now?). ANet should have had better disciplinary protocol in place. Other media companies like ESPN have better policy, and Price would get a temporary suspension without pay and revoking of social media access for a specified time. And no firing of Fries. But now, you get the worst outcome, where ANet overreacts in a major way, Price deals with harassment, AND Deroir the Youtuber who was a fan of Price and GW and WAS NOT EVEN MAD AFTER THE EXCHANGE, now has to deal with GG propping them up as an "anti-SJW hero", which means his streaming, and his community, is going to be infested with shitheads.. AND that's on top of people blaming him (when they absolutely shouldn't) for "getting Price fired" (he didn't). AND GGers are emboldened to do this to other companies now.
It's just shit. It sucks. It all sucks. And it all could've been avoided if ANet wasn't so hair-trigger.
It's just shit. It sucks. It all sucks. And it all could've been avoided if ANet wasn't so hair-trigger.
Read some of the tweets there, Price seems completely obnoxious and I don't think I'd want to work with her. Does "progressive" mean giving anyone who isn't a white man a free pass or what?
The hate mob is obviously unacceptable on every level, if that needs to be said.
The hate mob is obviously unacceptable on every level, if that needs to be said.
I feel very similarly. To say that this whole situation has been demoralizing would be an understatement.
OP
OP
most people who accuse the media of being biased don't actually show their work
as an example, your very posts in this thread. i went through all of the posts you have made up to this point and you have said a couple of times in this thread that media are not reporting honestly (one time you actually said that this was a legitimate case of "ethics in games journalism", but you later edited away that post) but i have never seen you point out specific articles and specific passages of those articles you find lacking (you did do this for a twitter thread though)
so you have basically just been making generalization about media reporting this in an unbalanced way, without actually taking time to back up such assertions. if you don't point out the specific pieces and passages you find lacking, how can anyone counter what you're saying? how could your posts then lead to a good discussion?
Price has personal responsibility over how she handled the situation, and her ex-employer has personal responsibility for how they handled the situation. Deroir doesn't really seem to be in the wrong. It wasn't even a personal attack. In comparison, we've seen people trash talk someone like David Cage for his way of telling stories and no one bats an eye.
Or just don't be an asshole to your customers on a public forum.
That works too.
If I called a high profile customer a "rando asshat" on a public platform, I'd be fired.
I'd also fire an employee who did the same. It's inexcusable.
There's a way to engage customers without vilifying them. At the end of the day, your customers are your revenue stream. As a company, you need to protect that revenue stream. Without them, there would be no company for you to work at.
I'd fully understand if her tweets were confrontational even - but the tweets were abusive. That's crossing the way - WAY over the line.
I'd also fire an employee who did the same. It's inexcusable.
There's a way to engage customers without vilifying them. At the end of the day, your customers are your revenue stream. As a company, you need to protect that revenue stream. Without them, there would be no company for you to work at.
I'd fully understand if her tweets were confrontational even - but the tweets were abusive. That's crossing the way - WAY over the line.
It doesn't help that game devs are also seen as expendable, and if you're expendable you better act like a corporate drone
Basically this thread uses the rationale that something that would likely get me fired shouldn't get her fired. If I denigrated my company or my customers on my personal twitter and my employer found out that could be grounds for discipline up to termination.
I also fundamentally disagree with the analysis of substance because any disagreement can be distilled to "well actually-" when it suits your desire to do so. You can't actually disagree with someone while upholding every aspect of their position, and contorting that to "subtext" feels so fundamentally dishonest.
To the rest, Deroir was very much publicly discarded by Price and as such actually had something worth being disappointed about especially considering his prior praise of her. She had no such actual slight against her, and in totality created the motivation and opportunity for any and all of Derior's responses that the thread takes issue with while pretending their part in causing any confrontation was equal.
In the end we're just back to twisting words to fit a narrative that Deroir lacks sufficient standing to respond to a public post with any disagreement. The idea that this is a position some have made the foundation of their opinions, that the unwashed masses who lack decades of professional experience shouldn't dare deign to speak to our game developing overlords, is insane.
That's just a roundabout way of trying to sprinkle some of the blame on him. And I'm done bothering with people trying to do that, because his comments were anything but negative or patronizing. He gave his opinion on something, end of story. People with any sort of basic social skills can see that her response was completely unreasonable. Cockroaches like GG and the like trying to ride the coattails of the firing doesn't change that.
Why do you insist on repeating that, though? Let's unpack that. Is that the one thing out of this whole debacle that truly gets your blood boiling?
I do really really feel bad for Deroir in this situation, can you imagine going from being genuinely excited to share with a content creator you enjoy to being used by shitty shitheads on Twitter as an excuse to harass the creator you enjoy?
It goes without saying that I also feel great sympathy for Price in this situation, but Deroir is a really tragic figure here as well.
Seriously, this is starting to feel messed up. It's OK if you don't agree with the firing, but you can do that without accusing him to be someone who burns puppies.
This.
I remember a story where someone was wearing their work uniform "off the clock", got their pic taken doing stuff that was bad for company image and ended up getting fired. I forget the company, but I'm sure someone knows what I'm talking about.
Oh lord I can't even imagine what would happen to my entire career if I said something like that on a public forum directly at one of our higher profile customers on an account tied to my employer.
I'd likely never work in my field again.
Here's a secret about how misogyny and harassment works...
It doesn't matter whether women are nice or not.
Ah some bizarre stuff thrown at Deroir still.
But in any case, *sigh* Anet should have handle this better to say the least. There certainly needed to be some discipline, but by damn this went ugly. It's disappointing by how this blew up.
But in any case, *sigh* Anet should have handle this better to say the least. There certainly needed to be some discipline, but by damn this went ugly. It's disappointing by how this blew up.