The controversial ArenaNet firings of Guild Wars 2 writers (READ OP)

Memphis-Ahn

Member
Nov 7, 2017
58
The part that really got me was the "Don't expect me to pretend to like you here.", instantly outing that she, in fact, dislikes the customers she is supposed to be serving. Can't really expect someone who doesn't even pretend to like their customers to do their best job.

Also I told you insects 100000000000 times that Kamiya should've probably been fired by now for doing nothing but tweeting all day.
 

JesseEwiak

Member
Oct 31, 2017
928
A) Kamiya is so utterly dickish on twitter that it pretty much wraps back around to hilarious. Plus, at this point I’m pretty sure he’s just doing it for the sake of his brand
B) Kamiya acts like a dick to everyone, versus Price who called out one specific person for nonsensical reasons
In other words, "he's wacky and Japanese so it's OK, but she was just being a non-sensical woman who doesn't know what's she's talking about."
 

DorkyMohr

User requested ban
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
110
That to but I think it was mainly because arena net has been on a series of bad Subreddit PR. They probably thought firing the employees will win them a few points but instead blew up.

Anyway since the middle of June are arena net has been doing with a fanbase that complained about the release of its living story episode even though the company promises a timeframe of 2 to 3 months. This release was closer to the 3 month but still within the previously expected time.

The players freaked the fuck out demanding an explanation. Eventually arena net gave them one about the issues. Unfortunately, at release it was buggy and unplayable after a day it was fixed. The other issue was, it was just too short and had a lot of missing content. The a few days later this happens.

As usual arena net wanted the cheap easy pr win and predictably overcorrected.

You can make an argue about Price, but a lot of pro-fire have just ignored Peter Fries, because they cannot come up with a good justification of a coworker getting fired without warning for defending a co-worker. And here arena net thought it was going to be an easy win for them.
Interesting insight into what was going on with the community before this.
 

HellofaMouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,364
You keep doing this posturing about everyone being misinformed so we shouldn't rush to judgement but everyone can pretty clear see what side you've landed on lol.

But yeah, sure, the 15 year employee with the milquetoast tweets was surely a massive HR shitstirrer behind the scenes so we better wait for the facts fellas. In the meantime, let's go after the shifty media and also pretty clearly imply Price is the devil.
the side i landed on was the fact that Price's tweets were 100% irresponsible, rude, and reason enough for termination.

i havent said anything about peter fries, because, again, i dont know enough about that, none of us do.

there is probably still a lot of things we dont know about price's situation within the company as well, but the stuff thats out in the open is enough to form an opinion on that.
 

B-Dubs

Oh well, what the hell?
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
15,506
Please get back on topic and stop sniping at each other personally.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,082
Adam Orth got fired for insulting customers online.
https://www.polygon.com/2013/11/6/5075106/adam-orth-xbox-one-gdc-next
At GDC Next, Orth said the decision to leave Microsoft was his. He resigned four days after the initial blow up via an email to his employer. He and his family relocated to Southern California and Orth is now pursuing his creative efforts with another company. Of his original tweet and the ensuing exchange with another game developer, Orth said the following.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Well honestly, being a beloved Japanese developer. Cliffy B doesn't get Kamiya treatment here, who is also often abrasive and direct in social media and otherwise. Cliffy B is a dick while Kamiya is tensai.
Cliffy B routinely had long threads on GAF shitting on him for his social media behaviour. Adam Orth was eviscerated on GAF with memes and celebration of him leaving MS due to anger around his behaviour. Jay Wilson was shit on as well with long topics on GAF about his fuck that guy comments, and while Blizzard didn't fire him he was sent grovelling - https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/6398870250

Kamiya does seem to get away with more, but that's not to say he doesn't get called out by people pissed off at his brash behaviour (or upset when they get banned), but for better or worse he's managed to create a social media character around his banning and snark. Not everyone gets "Hideki Kamiya" level "privilege" on social media.

I'm not linking to any more GAF topics but just search

"Jay Wilson neogaf"
"Cliffy B neogaf"
"Adam Orth neogaf"

in Google and quickly remember history around some other notable mouthpieces who have said things on social media and ended up facing consequences.

It happens and it's not always equal as each employer might act differently and/or your position in the company does sometimes give you a veneer of privilege. I think a thing with Hideki Kamiya is him behaving cool and decent in real life, so his social media account is treated more like an act or overly stimulated behaviour. Like some sort of comedian.
 
Oct 27, 2017
911
Edinburgh, Scotland
The part that really got me was the "Don't expect me to pretend to like you here.", instantly outing that she, in fact, dislikes the customers she is supposed to be serving. Can't really expect someone who doesn't even pretend to like their customers to do their best job.

Also I told you insects 100000000000 times that Kamiya should've probably been fired by now for doing nothing but tweeting all day.
developer's don't fucking 'serve' the people who buy their games. jesus christ. they don't, and should not, and to suggest otherwise says something PROFOUNDLY fucking depressing about the medium as an art form.

they owe NOTHING to people who are being assholes to them, whether they spend money on the game they helped make or not.
 

newmoneytrash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,046
Melbourne, Australia
A) Kamiya is so utterly dickish on twitter that it pretty much wraps back around to hilarious. Plus, at this point I’m pretty sure he’s just doing it for the sake of his brand
B) Kamiya acts like a dick to everyone, versus Price who called out one specific person for nonsensical reasons
Nonsensical? There is more sense in Price’s tweets than Kamiya telling people to fuck off for saying they like one of his games

Just because your brand is that you act like a dickhead doesn’t excuse you for acting like a dickhead. Either you think people on twitter who represent their companies should have to work with a certain amount of civility or they don’t. You don’t get to pick and choose
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,734
Fixed.

no accountability =/= she shouldn't get fired over this

There are several levels that Anet could have punished Price, they went for the nuclear option alongside someone who just defended her.
There are, and there's an argument to be made regarding severity. That argument doesn't start with calling Deroir out again and pretending the only other option was walking on eggshells as was the beginning of that chain.
 

Dynheart

Member
Oct 31, 2017
578
You seem to be saying that it's unfair she got away with barking, because you couldn't do the same without a ban.
Honestly, if rules are broken, people generally suffer the consequences. Isn't that how it's supposed to go? You make an account here, and the post etiquette it pretty cut and dry.

Off top is also another one, so that's all I am going to say about this.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,144
No one is having a conversation here. This thread is a mess.
The second we started to bark at each other even the thinnest veneer of civility had peeled away...

That being said, I do think the Kamiya comparison is an interesting one. Why is it that if you engage positively with your community, but then make a shitty remark, that is a problem, but if you are always a giant asshole it is strangely endearing? I am guessing people are just giving Kamiya, specifically, a giant pass...? Or maybe we see it as some form of a satirical character? I honestly don't know, but it is definitely a double standard of some sort.
 

a stray cat

Member
Nov 13, 2017
229
Bay Area
In other words, "he's wacky and Japanese so it's OK, but she was just being a non-sensical woman who doesn't know what's she's talking about."
More like "She made it about her being a woman, which makes everyone put on their very serious hat, then she says she doesn't have to be nice to her (ANet's) customers on twitter, which in very serious mode is no-no and she got fired."
 

JesseEwiak

Member
Oct 31, 2017
928
That's the nature of the platform. "Join the conversation" is basically their slogan. Make your account private or post on a different platform if you're not looking for anyone to respond to you.
So, in your view, what should a female game developer on Twitter do if she wants to talk about her work in one of the places where many game devs talk about her work in a way that will allow it to be interacted with by people she trusts and looks up too, while not getting spammed with helpful messages about how to do her job?
 

Blackage

Member
Oct 27, 2017
681
Comparatively, I don't recall Jay Wilson getting fired for anything he did after the launch of Diablo 3, including the infamous "fuck that loser", comment. Certainly more inflammatory than what was said here.
The difference is Jay Wilson's comment was actually from a private facebook group/conversation, it wasn't public, somebody took a screenshot of it and made it public. It was also wasn't about the fans/community, it was about another developer he clearly didn't like, who actually basically said "I could do Jay's job better then he and the Diablo team currently are doing"
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,082
There are, and there's an argument to be made regarding severity. That argument doesn't start with calling Deroir out again and pretending the only other option was walking on eggshells as was the beginning of that chain.
Both arguments are compatible. She got mad at him with reasons so, she was rude? sure, dosn't mean it wasn't warranted. It gaves context about the reaction she had and what the post about gender mean it. It dosn't matter if Deroir intended it voluntarily or unvoluntarily, that's how it came across.
 

HellofaMouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,364
You can't have a conversation when people come in and pretend to be dumb instead of engaging in all the arguments presented.
This won't change until the mod team gets more on the case in this thread. And I honestly am losing any interest in engaging in good faith after the 20th
"Jessica price deserved this. What do you mean with Peter Fries? Who is that? Why is this about gender again?"

It is just absolutely baffling after 8 years of documented garbage people still cannot give the slightest big of empathy here. Every judgement is made in a vaccuum of personal bias.
so just because there is precedent, this is definitely a case of a corrupt corporate hierarchy?

how is coming to that, incredibly accusatory conclusion without proper information any different from what gamergaters did?
 

Thorn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,740
The second we started to bark at each other even the thinnest veneer of civility had peeled away...

That being said, I do think the Kamiya comparison is an interesting one. Why is it that if you engage positively with your community, but then make a shitty remark, that is a problem, but if you are always a giant asshole it is strangely endearing? I am guessing people are just giving Kamiya, specifically, a giant pass...? Or maybe we see it as some form of a satirical character? I honestly don't know, but it is definitely a double standard of some sort.
Im not too interested in talking about kamiya but his twitter account is to me more like a heel wrestler in kayfabe with people purposely saying stupid shit so a funny response can be made.
 

rebelcrusader

Member
Oct 25, 2017
964
developer's don't fucking 'serve' the people who buy their games. jesus christ. they don't, and should not, and to suggest otherwise says something PROFOUNDLY fucking depressing about the medium as an art form.

they owe NOTHING to people who are being assholes to them, whether they spend money on the game they helped make or not.
Huh...someone here should explain how businesses work
 

newmoneytrash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,046
Melbourne, Australia
Like do people truly and sincerely think that if a dude dev on twitter replied to someone calling them an asshat that they would get fired? Do they think that it would even gain enough tractaion to warrant a thread here?
 

CrazyHal

Member
Nov 1, 2017
572
User banned (1 week): downplaying sexism and online harassment campaigns, account still in junior stage
A) Kamiya is so utterly dickish on twitter that it pretty much wraps back around to hilarious. Plus, at this point I’m pretty sure he’s just doing it for the sake of his brand
B) Kamiya acts like a dick to everyone, versus Price who called out one specific person for nonsensical reasons
There's also the fact that Price used sexims as a shield to deflect the criticism that she was getting from the Guild wars 2 community for her tweets when her being a woman had nothing with it. That is not okay.
 

DorkyMohr

User requested ban
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
110
That's the nature of the platform. "Join the conversation" is basically their slogan. Make your account private or post on a different platform if you're not looking for anyone to respond to you.
That's an oversimplification of the platform and the situation. Just because you can reply to something doesn't mean it's always appropriate or wanted. Twitter users and gamers are dense when it comes to social intelligence and etiquette. Telling someone to buzz off when they've overreached is not a valid reason to get fired.
 

Blackbird

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,129
Brazil
Lack of empathy is a hard thing to work with.

This is something we've been discussing for years and years, how abusive and toxic interactions work, how it affects the people involved and where it comes from. There's not an easy way to contextualize everything that is happening right now without reaching unnerving parallels, realizing how quickly the general perspective can change depending on who is considered the victim, and the mental mental gymnastics behind every bit of effort to isolate each case in favor of dismissing urgent problems, going to a high level of inconsistency and narratives that only fits in benefit of each social bubble handled like a shiny shield.

It bears not only cognitive dissonance, but a really dangerous way of manipulating facts and filtering merely what affects the intimacy of specific personal spaces. It's not about that, them, it's about us and/or me.

We're going into places of insecurity, ignorance and fragility. Realities that are one-sided to its limits, pursuing hate for the sake of protecting itself, confronting every risk like a furious attack towards a unique perspective. Blowing things out of proportion, using scapegoats, marginalizing minorities and by consequence, hunting exploits to cowardly justify infuriating acts of injustice and toxic nature.

People are treated like humans only when they're part of a very special group, with the rights that they earned by...what exactly? Oh yeah, always being on the top and not having to deal with common problems which somehow they can't even figure out, that it's their own fault to begin with.

Developers like Kamiya are out there, shouting at fans and interactig the exact way they feel like. The difference? They're mostly white men, and that makes it just a joke, a charismatic behaviour and just their personal views which they are "allowed"/free to express, for the sake of freedom of speech, they say, when it suits better for them, obviously.

I can't not express how disgusted i am with the fragility of the community behind this, the insecurity taking over everytime and creating basically witch hunts because people like Price are standing up for themselves and discussing well known issues with their honest viewpoint, which is ironically the most precious ideal within the kind of group attacking her.

Developers are humans, she deserves her own personal space and we need to stop pretending this woman crossed such a sacred line.
 
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finalflame

Product Management
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,355
What she did was not worth firing over. They caved to mob pressure. If she had set fire to the office we wouldn't be talking about this. Well I guess we would, but not for the same reasons.
You get to decide what's firable? This is not the first nor the last time an employee will be fired over social media, man or woman.This isn't new. Calling a user a "rando asshat" is definitely within the scope of things you could expect to get fired for saying. Sometimes reading this thread I feel like almost everyone arguing otherwise has ever actually worked in any professional environment. This does not have to be explicitly stated or written in an employee handbook to be obvious.
 

rebelcrusader

Member
Oct 25, 2017
964
Like do people truly and sincerely think that if a dude dev on twitter replied to someone calling them an asshat that they would get fired? Do they think that it would even gain enough tractaion to warrant a thread here?
Nah dude would get fired (like he did here) and there would be no thread because no one would care (like no one cares about him here other than those begging the question)
 

Thorn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,740
Like do people truly and sincerely think that if a dude dev on twitter replied to someone calling them an asshat that they would get fired? Do they think that it would even gain enough tractaion to warrant a thread here?
Sure. Or at the least, if fired, I'd say it was their fault. Not every company has the same policy.
 

Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,052
You get to decide what's firable? This is not the first nor the last time an employee will be fired over social media, man or woman.This isn't new. Calling a user a "rando asshat" is definitely within the scope of things you could expect to get fired for saying. Sometimes reading this thread I feel like nobody has ever actually worked in any professional environment. This does not have to be explicitly stated or written in an employee handbook to be obvious.
Peter Fries.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,200
Kamiya's whole Twitter persona is acting like an asshole. It's expected because he has never shied away from it and the company that he works for obviously does not give a shit about his engagement with fans as long as he keeps the insults to the level of low quality shit posting. If Kamiya called a fan a racial slur for example his ass would be fired. There are levels. The real issue with Kamiya is why people don't feel some type of way about his antics but do about this.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,082
There's also the fact that Price used sexims as a shield to deflect the criticism that she was getting from the Guild wars 2 community for her tweets when her being a woman had nothing with it. That is not okay.
Except for the fact GG harassed her.

She felt he was mansplaining her, and then she made a comment about it and how usual is in the industry.

How's that not OK?
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,070
1. Price is kind of an asshole at times and quote tweeting someone negatively when you have 12k followers is a kind of a dick move.
2. Most of the people that wanted Price fired are total assholes that don't care about someone being an asshole
3. ANet should have warned Price instead of firing her, this doesn't seem like a fireable on first offense thing.
4. Treating Twitter as a private message system like Discord or Slack instead of a very public forum is something that people should stop doing.
 

A.By

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,448
The fact that the devs set expectations that their employees don't have to worry about being punished for speaking out like this means that it doesn't matter if an employee insulted a customer.