No, it's the one where she said she didn't get to attend all the meetings when she was hired because she was already busy working on the game.
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The thing is that she made a couple of tweet and the reason she was fired was also because she probably can't understand why that kind of answer to a fan asking a question is wrong.
Again, there was multiple paths available to her. Again , there was no need for her to be on the attack afterwards.
The CEO of arena.net publicy stated what she did wrong. If she wanted "protection" from "bots", from "abusers" she could have contacted her staff.
EVEN If she felt under threat , there was dozens of things that could have been done. She put herself on an "unprotectable" position by her own will.
You just don't fire 2 people from your well acclaimed writing team if you have other options available to you.
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Again: dressing opinions with politeness doesn't excuse how wrong, hurtful or insensible are those opinions.
I honestly have no interest in continuing a conversation with a response like this. I just hope you and everyone here readthe twitter threads posted here and realize that this conversation has moved well beyond whether she was rude to the guy or not.
I'm one of those free speech absolutists and not once have I defended someone getting fired after they were being a racist shithead on Twitter. Free speech is for the government, not private companies.
Lazy efforts like this will never work.
There is good reason to be justified in feeling concerned about this behavior but since i feel the firing of Justine Sacco was justified for her racist comedy it clearly can and should work regardless of our biases.
In aggregate Sexists going after women have a much higher barrier to clear because a company isn't going to fire someone for made up events while the rest of us can report unprofessional hostile behavior that is easier to prove.
You might be right but then isn't she even more disrespectful in the first place?
''thanks for trying to tell me what we do internally, my dude 9_9'' is not only disrespectful, but rude as well.
She pretty much tells him to ''f*ck off'', no matter how unintentionally politely disrespectful Deroir's reply was there's really no need for this kind of response.
Sure Deroir was pretty upset afterwards but can you really blame him? At least he takes it a lot more mature and professional than Jessica did, and he still remains very polite and calm to the very end, even after all the things Jessica said.
I hate to say this but every single one of her response was rude as hell, and totally unprofessional. She didn't deserve to be fired but there's no justification to her behavior either.
Even if we ignored their argument and assume they are both right and wrong, she could've handle the aftermath so much better, like she could've just said ''that was a bit rude, I'm sorry'' and he would've just said ''it's alright'' and everything would be fine, it didn't have to be this ugly.
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Of course he fucking was. The is no polite way to tell a veteran of the industry that they are doing their job wrong, specifically regarding their exact area of expertise, when you yourself have no relevant experience the field.
It was not a conversation between equals, and assuming that whatever he heard on YouTube or era or wherever else gave him even standing is rude, regardless of what exact language he used. And while I can't crawl inside his brain to figure out exactly what he was thinking at the time, when you see a man actively depreciating the expertise of a woman, it's not unreasonable to start a conversation about sexism.
The only thing you can reasonably point to and say she did something wrong is her choice of the word "asshat", which she probably shouldn't have done, even though he was being one.
It still means that he backed out of this whole thing and tried to leave on good terms. It was her who kept going and dragged it into the public
You realize Deroir made a point to say "I'm a feminist" because he's getting harassed by both people who blame him for Price's firing and GamerGators mocking him right?
But the whole conversation happenned on a public space on the internet where everyone can see and records of said conversation are public.
What kind of evidence do you want , especially when the whole sequence of events is written ?( with timeframes no less ? )
I don't get it.
How about them saying or doing something sexist. Should be a pretty easy requirement to fulfill.
Imagine if you applied even 1/10th this amount of harsh scrutiny to Price's comments.
User Banned (3 Days): Drive-by posting dismissive gifs in sensitive threads, history of similar behavior.
He isn't telling her she is doing her job wrong.
He is telling that he disagrees with her and he thinks that branching dialogue doesn't work in MMORPGs because no one dared to do it right.
It seems everyone is projecting insecurities and prior bad experiences on him, her included, and that made the situation shit the bed.
That was enough to send angry dudes to her. And then she did the comment aimed at him and other people.
The response to that perceived slight could have also been handled much, much better in my opinion. She could have handled this whole affair professionally and yet she did not. Which is unfortunate.
If things had been handled differently, Price and Fries would still be employed.
As the CEO of Arena Net said himself. " A perceived slight does not give us license to attack. "
Remind me to bring this up whenever anyone criticizes my music in anyway what so ever. It's disrespectful of other people to have opinions when I've been playing for 12 years.
I would feel sorry for her had she not used her gender as a reason for everything going wrong. She responded poorly to a guy, who did not say a single thing about her gender, and she was fired for that exchange. If it was solely about her gender, a male coworker of her's would not have been fired alongside her. She refuses to own up to her mistake and decides to just blame everyone else. The company didn't set a mob out to get her, people were angry the moment she sent out a downright disrespectful tweet to someone who did nothing to deserve that kind of treatment.
I still hope she lands on her feet, and i'm sure she will, but throwing everybody around her under the bus is not the way to go about this.
I still hope she lands on her feet, and i'm sure she will, but throwing everybody around her under the bus is not the way to go about this.
If I understand this correctly:
Giving feedback to a post which, if you contort your skull and spend all your time on Twitter blocking people, sounds vaguely like mansplaining = condescending
Telling someone to fuck off and call them (a close partner to the company you work with) a "rando asshat" = mildly rude
Is this right?
Giving feedback to a post which, if you contort your skull and spend all your time on Twitter blocking people, sounds vaguely like mansplaining = condescending
Telling someone to fuck off and call them (a close partner to the company you work with) a "rando asshat" = mildly rude
Is this right?
I think we're getting to the point where I'm not sure my contributions to this thread are valuable anymore, so I'll say this one last thing and peace out.
But that's what I'm getting at. In isolation it's easy to say, "well, if someone gave me unwanted feedback or whatever, I'd just say 'thanks!' with a smile and ignore it."
Imagine having to do that to ten or twenty people over Twitter every day. Imagine they were all telling you what Deroir told them: "hey, I love the stuff you do, but I think you're maybe a little wrong about this one thing, have you thought about doing this instead?" Imagine this happens every day, and imagine that sometimes it's polite and well-meaning, and sometimes it gets a little mean, and often it's not clear which of the two it actually is.
If it's your job to be customer service, the answer is you suck it up and put on the smile anyways because it's your job. But Jessica Price isn't customer service, at least not the way we usually define it. The expectations for what she should do are murkier at best, even if you take the stance that she's representing the company 24/7 on social media and hell yeah she should put that smile on. What I'm saying is that if people prod at you enough times in low-key annoying ways, eventually you might get fed up. And if that one instance where you lose your cool is the thing that gets you fired, that sucks.
I can't speak for Deroid, I don't know what he would or would not have done if Price was a guy instead. It's possible he would've made the exact same comment. It's also possible he would've been more deferential. Remember that Deroir didn't even pose it as a question. He just said, "I disagree with your statement, you could probably have fixed this problem by implementing dialogue trees." That's not an antagonistic statement, exactly, but it also assumes a certain authority of opinion, which is probably unfair given that it's literally Price's job to think about that stuff on a regular basis and Deroid is just a dude who plays the game.
Two more random things. First, people keep posting that Twitch clip where Deroir says he loved the AMA and the way Price answered questions as proof that he meant no harm and everything's totally fine. But his admiration for Price doesn't suddenly mean it's impossible for him to cause offense. It just means that he didn't intend it. Intentions are great and we should value them somewhat. But it's also worth noting that it's entirely possible to be sexist, racist or offensive without having a single iota of intent. Systemic cases of discrimination often work this way: no one sets out to discriminate, but the system is designed in such a way that leads to those outcomes. Deroir probably didn't set out to assume that he knew more about Price's work than she did, but that's how it came out.
Second, none of the above changes my opinion that what Price did is not a fireable offense, never mind Peter Fries. She was somewhat rude to a person on Twitter. For this, she was called into a meeting with the head of the company, yelled at for a bit, then shown the door immediately. Then the company put out a statement characterizing their Twitter activity as "attacks on the community," never mind that only one of them even talked to the guy in question. And before you say, well, any company would've done the same, look at all the examples of other game dev houses reacting differently to the news: talking to their employees about social media use so that everyone knows what the expectations are, or telling the community that they don't have carte blanche over hiring or firing decisions and that they stand behind their employees.
But that's what I'm getting at. In isolation it's easy to say, "well, if someone gave me unwanted feedback or whatever, I'd just say 'thanks!' with a smile and ignore it."
Imagine having to do that to ten or twenty people over Twitter every day. Imagine they were all telling you what Deroir told them: "hey, I love the stuff you do, but I think you're maybe a little wrong about this one thing, have you thought about doing this instead?" Imagine this happens every day, and imagine that sometimes it's polite and well-meaning, and sometimes it gets a little mean, and often it's not clear which of the two it actually is.
If it's your job to be customer service, the answer is you suck it up and put on the smile anyways because it's your job. But Jessica Price isn't customer service, at least not the way we usually define it. The expectations for what she should do are murkier at best, even if you take the stance that she's representing the company 24/7 on social media and hell yeah she should put that smile on. What I'm saying is that if people prod at you enough times in low-key annoying ways, eventually you might get fed up. And if that one instance where you lose your cool is the thing that gets you fired, that sucks.
I can't speak for Deroid, I don't know what he would or would not have done if Price was a guy instead. It's possible he would've made the exact same comment. It's also possible he would've been more deferential. Remember that Deroir didn't even pose it as a question. He just said, "I disagree with your statement, you could probably have fixed this problem by implementing dialogue trees." That's not an antagonistic statement, exactly, but it also assumes a certain authority of opinion, which is probably unfair given that it's literally Price's job to think about that stuff on a regular basis and Deroid is just a dude who plays the game.
Two more random things. First, people keep posting that Twitch clip where Deroir says he loved the AMA and the way Price answered questions as proof that he meant no harm and everything's totally fine. But his admiration for Price doesn't suddenly mean it's impossible for him to cause offense. It just means that he didn't intend it. Intentions are great and we should value them somewhat. But it's also worth noting that it's entirely possible to be sexist, racist or offensive without having a single iota of intent. Systemic cases of discrimination often work this way: no one sets out to discriminate, but the system is designed in such a way that leads to those outcomes. Deroir probably didn't set out to assume that he knew more about Price's work than she did, but that's how it came out.
Second, none of the above changes my opinion that what Price did is not a fireable offense, never mind Peter Fries. She was somewhat rude to a person on Twitter. For this, she was called into a meeting with the head of the company, yelled at for a bit, then shown the door immediately. Then the company put out a statement characterizing their Twitter activity as "attacks on the community," never mind that only one of them even talked to the guy in question. And before you say, well, any company would've done the same, look at all the examples of other game dev houses reacting differently to the news: talking to their employees about social media use so that everyone knows what the expectations are, or telling the community that they don't have carte blanche over hiring or firing decisions and that they stand behind their employees.
I was responding to your initial question about when responses can be seemingly polite in the surface but are still disrespectful. Price was neither polite or respectful, I don't think even she would argue that. She wasn't trying to be.
How dare people comment on stuff.
Do you all even deal with criticism or diverging opinions on work on a daily basis? How do you all cope when someone doesn't agree with you?
If people never questioned jack shit in the structure, companies would have stopped inovating or course correct long ago.
This situation has gotten really ugly. It was murky from the onset, but it has only become more so. The people who I tend to be ideologically aligned with are making a lot of bad faith arguments, and anyone who disagrees with them is being branded as a bigot. This seems like it is turning into a giant proxy battle...
A situation that started off as unfortunate has become a complete shitshow. I doubt anyone is going to walk away from this situation looking good, though I am sure it will be a giant feather in the hat of every gamergater.
A situation that started off as unfortunate has become a complete shitshow. I doubt anyone is going to walk away from this situation looking good, though I am sure it will be a giant feather in the hat of every gamergater.
The problem here is from the very start your faction has tried doing everything possible to make this a story about sexism at all costs.
You are not grasping that you are talking mostly to another faction where we want sexism to be addressed but by pushing towards fair treatment. An asshole should always be treated like an asshole. People who do the respectable thing should be treated with respect. If you want to show That understanding then own up to the fact you want to create and enforce a double standard.
Cool, now he gets harassed by "progressives"
Be so woke you fall back to fuckin sleep brehs
Compare the times.
https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/1014554296107483136
https://twitter.com/DeroirGaming/status/1014564971416518656
She called him out publicly an hour before he even made the comment where he supposedly threw a tantrum and apologized
From what I can tell do responses in a thread also don't appear in the timeline of followers. So it's likely no one even saw this until she posted it on her timeline.
Edit: even the "rando asshat" tweet was before he even responded
https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/1014555719352213504
Kind of an important detail people missed when they said he was just throwing a "tantrum" at the 9_9 tweet
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She literally wrote "I'm not sure it's possible..." so she isn't sure despite being a veteran. Why even write this if you don't want to read any suggestions and have a discussion.
Not once did he direct people to harass her. He wasn't subtweeting her (she was the one doing that), he wasn't sicking his fanbase on her, he was just having a conversation.
Do you propose visible people on Twitter with any sort of opposing positions only converse via DMs? Because that's the only way there won't be harassment when an Internet personality is involved.
Kind of agree, he pretty much just said ''Very disappointed by your response cause I really just want a civil discussion, guess I'll leave now.'' but for some reason that piss her off too.
if you feel the need to attack someone who tries to talk to you about something you are better at than they are, thats narcisism. which doesnt really go hand in hand with professionalism
Yeah, I've had to mute some of my follows until this settles because people are starting to act like dude planned to get her fired and that being rude to your employer's partners is completely fine
He didn't needed to direct people, as presenting himself as the victim like he did nothing wrong, you can spark fire. Specially when you are a member of a gamer community...
"It works, you are just doing it wrong, do it like this" and "I think it might work, in my opinion, it has never been done right"
If you think the second is telling someone how to do their work, good luck in your career because you will need a very thick skin.
He didn't do anything wrong. That's why the GW2 community got upset at Price's response.
If you are someone with years of experience in the subject in question, something like this absolutely can come off as such.
This is condescending?? Are you for real?
Considering she dragged this out into the public before he could even respond in the thread I'm going to go with a clear "nope" on this.
She wanted to make this a big deal and it blew up in her face.
And that's the root of the problem. If you can't see that, there's nothing else to discuss.
Holy shit. We are reaching the point where he was wrong just by existing.
Why does he not have the right to feel offended by that by the way? Are you saying he should be held to an higher regard adequate to his position as an influencer of the gaming community?
Are you implying people should be accountable for their actions depending on their positions and rank?
Do you notice a contradiction here?
The fact that they fired her and the other guy are bad enough. Labeling them as enemies of the community is so fucking gross and far more unprofessional than they claim she was originally. Great, not only did you throw them under a bus but you also vilified them to the very people who were already harassing them. I don't know how anyone working there can feel safe knowing THAT'S how their employer handles situations like this.
So are you being disrespectful by providing feedback to the post when I didn't ask for it from you?
What?
- Mike O'Brien President of Arenanet.
Maybe i'm reading it wrong or don't see the subtext, but I feel like he pointedly doesn't do that. He says "I believe" and "disagree", both words (to me) imply that the person is not certain and is looking for a discussion. The whole thing reads more like he wants to pick her brain about the narrative choices than him trying to tell her she's wrong. Like obviously they've considered branching narratives, it's easy to tell by her work that Jessica Price is skilled, It's impossible they never discussed that option. But he thinks that would solve a lot of issues. I read his question like he's trying to get insight on why they went the route they did, and not him trying to inform someone with years of experience of a basic narrative design.
It's easy to read what he wrote and see the latter (especially with the fact that it's no doubt happened to her before), but I don't think it lines up with how he seems to view her and the fact that he's sung her praises previously.
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yeah it's seriously fucked up
they clearly failed in their responsibilities towards their staff there
