The controversial ArenaNet firings of Guild Wars 2 writers (READ OP)

[BDS]

But the whole conversation happenned on a public space on the internet where everyone can see and records of said conversation are public.

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How about them saying or doing something sexist. Should be a pretty easy requirement to fulfill.

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You guys always act like accusing someone of bigotry is some kind of heinous, defamatory insult. I can consider anyone sexist if I feel their behavior is sexist. I don't need to justify it to you, or to anyone else, certainly not to a male superior who, like most men, probably doesn't consider anything sexist because men live in their own little privileged world where they consider being accused of sexism to be more offensive than actual sexism.

 

[padlock]

I feel like critical thinking courses should be mandatory in schools. It seems like many people do not understand simple logical arguments.

For example:

Statement A: The game industry is rife with sexism

Statement B: A male fan questioning the work of a female game professional is not inherently sexist

Anyone with a basic understand of logical reasoning would recognize that statements A and B are not mutually exclusive and, can in fact both be true. Yet reading some of the responses on this thread it seems like some people believe that that's not the case.

 

[Vela]

Point N Clickbait could make another relevant article:

"As A Progressive Forum Poster I Don't See Gender When I Instantly Criticize A Harassed & Fired Female Developer For Being Outspoken"

 

[mutantmagnet]

Regardless of how Price reacted, it really isn't that hard to see how Derior's initial comment could be (and was) taken poorly given the context of the way things are in gaming.

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AMAs usually don't end like this. Besides the one Gabe Newall did I doubt you can even name 2 amas that turned south like this.

 

[BDS]

Everyone covering for these people is deliberately enabling a hate group.

 

[DerpHause]

Polite, constructive conversation can still be disrespectful if not delivered at the right place/time under the right pretenses (i.e. the person receiving it sought it out).

But even moving beyond that first exchange, once Price made it pretty clear she wasn't open to that discussion, for him to make sure EVERYONE knew how disappointed he was, was pretty telling. He wasn't "politely" withdrawing from the conversation at all. Politely withdrawing from a conversation on Twitter means no response, or a simple apology followed by no response. "I'm disappointed in you #butI'mAFeministY'all" isn't polite by any stretch, it's pretty ridiculous to see people here try to paint it that way.

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The "I'm a feminist" didn't come till later after he saw the doubling down by Price and most assuredly saw people holding your position responding to him. Add to that the articles saying Price called him out, Deroir might be understood for responding in rightfully saying he did nothing deserving being called out for.

But hey, this is apparently all on him for having the public conversation in a public online space in response to other public tweets instead of just shutting up like a proper "polite" online member of the masses not of sufficient standing to be heard by Price.

 

[Deleted member 5596]

Holy shit. We are reaching the point where he was wrong just by existing.
Why does he not have the right to feel offended by that by the way? Are you saying he should be held to an higher regard adequate to his position as an influencer of the gaming community?

Are you implying people should be accountable for their actions depending on their positions and rank?
Do you notice a contradiction here?

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He has the right to feel offended, but he got someone fire. Maybe he can learn from this instead of acting it has nothing to do with him and getting the wrong lesson:"GW2 devs are in the obligation to enter in the discussions I want, because that how should it be, if not they are in danger of getting fired"

 

[Trace]

You guys always act like accusing someone of bigotry is some kind of heinous, defamatory insult.

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Uhh...

Am I missing something here?

He's a bigot now?

 

[svacina]

You guys always act like accusing someone of bigotry is some kind of heinous, defamatory insult. I can consider anyone sexist if I feel their behavior is sexist. I don't need to justify it to you, or to anyone else, certainly not to a male superior who, like most men, probably doesn't consider anything sexist because men live in their own little privileged world where they consider being accused of sexism to be more offensive than actual sexism.

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Well, that's only true if you do not blow up on the person you consider sexist, after which some justification to the person who can fire you at will might be in order. But what do I know, I only work customer relations.

 

[Deleted member 24907]

Everyone covering for these people is deliberately enabling a hate group.

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Yes but what you REALLY need to understand is that Price was being very rude! /s

The "I'm a feminist" didn't come till later after he saw the doubling down by Price and most assuredly saw people holding your position responding to him. Add to that the articles saying Price called him out, Deroir might be understood for responding in rightfully saying he did nothing deserving being called out for.

But hey, this is apparently all on him for having the public conversation in a public online space in response to other public tweets instead of just shutting up like a proper "polite" online member of the masses not of sufficient standing to be heard by Price.

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And? He still went out of his way to express his utter disappointment instead of simply not responding.

I'm not defending Price's temperament, I'm pushing back against a bizarre narrative of trying to put Deroir on a pedestal.

 

[Chorazin]

I implore everyone claiming that he wasn't being condescending to please read this thread with an open mind.

 

[Arkanius]

He has the right to feel offended, but he got someone fire. Maybe he can learn from this instead of acting it has nothing to do with him and getting the wrong lesson:"GW2 devs are in the obligation to enter in the discussions I want, because that how should it be, if not they are in danger of getting fired"

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It wasn't him that got her fired...
Everyone is villifying him for doing nothing other than trying to engage into dialogue with someone he admired/admires.
This is fucked up.
She getting fired is also fucked up.

Everyone loses in this fucking story. This shit is ugly.

 

[Super Corpse Soldier]

This is what makes the whole thing so frustrating.

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Yeah this is why I find this so absolutely frustrating.

Like I said, I understand people's nervousness when a female developer suddenly get a lot of criticism after the harassment campaigns by GamerGate.

But sometimes people actually fuck up. It reminds me of when gamers all used to be super defensive about games always because of people like Jack Thomson and the potentially for them to be radically censored. And once the threat of that ended, we couldn't deescalate and honestly address criticisms over games that weren't apocalyptic without immense hostility and it prevented us from talking about things like online culture, harassment, diversity in games and developers far sooner than it should.

When all you have is a hammer everything kinda looks like a nail I guess.

 

[samred]

Jessica hopped on Twitter today to address the issue and offer what I think is a really important point: ArenaNet's actions, and tactics, were on their face more disrespectful than anything Jessica said to a member of the community. A selection of her posts:

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Full thread: https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/1017103133955117056

ArenaNet could very well have redirected this conversation and clarify how a slag aimed at one uninvited Twitter comment, even if you want to call it unprofessional, was NOT equivalent to an attack on all fans and all outside criticism. (Which is the narrative that the mob began to immediately carry and make a game out of.) ArenaNet bought into that false narrative and reinforced it. Props to Jessica for continuing to be vocal about her perspective in the face of so much armchair criticism all over the Internet (not specifically aimed at commenters here, btw).

 

[Casual]

Yeah, I must be missing something in this whole thing. Maybe firing was a bit far? But at the end of the day that's up to the company to decide, if they don't want people being publicly disrespectful to their customers, that's their business. It's 2018, be more careful with what you do on social media.

Certainly not worth something getting up in arms or writing a lame ass satire about (clickbait indeed).

 

[BeeKaine]

You guys always act like accusing someone of bigotry is some kind of heinous, defamatory insult.

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Mostly because people are accusing Deroir of being heinous and defamatory for being sexist.

He's condescending because he's mansplaining because he disagreed with her and "told her how she should do her job", and he sicked the gators on her and now she's fired and OBVIOUSLY he had malice behind all of this.

"I call people sexist as a perjorative but I don't think being sexist is bad" Yeah, and I think that being a Nazi isn't a bad thing, well, shit, now it all changes then. When I call you a Nazi, I don't mean anything by it but that you do things that Nazis do, like murder minorities and promote white supremacy.

That's like saying that just because you call someone a murderer doesn't mean you think less of them.

YES YOU FUCKING DO. MURDER IS A BAD THING.

I understand the very small kernal of logic here, but I appreciate the assumption that because you decided to change the definiiton of a word, it's everyone else's fault that they don't understand.

If being sexist isn't a problem, then surely sexism itself is not?

I can consider anyone sexist if I feel their behavior is sexist. I don't need to justify it to you, or to anyone else, certainly not to a male superior who, like most men, probably doesn't consider anything sexist because men live in their own little privileged world where they consider being accused of sexism to be more offensive than actual sexism.

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I like this weird little enclave here.

Yeah, guys, being sexist isn't bad. Also, most men are little manbaby children who literally do not know what sexism is! But that's not bad, apparently.

 

[Blade Wolf]

Again: dressing opinions with politeness doesn't excuse how wrong, hurtful or insensible are those opinions.

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You are right about that, but isn't this is way more hurtful and insensible than everything Deroir said to her up to this point?

It was extremely rude, disrespectful and unprofessional. Even if you deeply believe that player's insight are inferior to developer's insight there's no reason to talk to your player like this. It was uncalled for and while she didn't deserve to lose her job there's no need to justify her behavior either.

You can't treat unintentional & polite disrespect with rude, dismissive & condescending disrespect.

If Deroir was wrong then Jessica Price was super wrong.

 

[Vela]

Everyone covering for these people is deliberately enabling a hate group.

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People need to read this and if they still don't get it, they are implicitly aligning themselves with a fucking hate mob.

 

[Spehornoob]

He has the right to feel offended, but he got someone fire. Maybe he can learn from this instead of acting it has nothing to do with him and getting the wrong lesson:"GW2 devs are in the obligation to enter in the discussions I want, because that how should it be, if not they are in danger of getting fired"

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He didn't get her fired. He didn't advocate for it to happen. He didn't write any emails. Hell I don't even think he wrote in any of the reddit posts that started up when people saw the tweets (but correct me if I'm wrong). She got herself fired by being rude and unprofessional while speaking in that way to a fan and community member while touting her job in her Twitter bio and starting a discussion about her career challenges.

 

[Khanimus]

Yeah, I must be missing something in this whole thing. Maybe firing was a bit far? But at the end of the day that's up to the company to decide, if they don't want people being publicly disrespectful to their customers, that's their business. It's 2018, be more careful with what you do on social media.

Certainly not worth something getting up in arms or writing a lame ass satire about (clickbait indeed).

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And yet look at what (or specifically who) it has enabled and validated in the wake of it.

 

[TheSaddestSort]

This idea that you aren't qualified to comment on something unless you have professional background in an industry is baffling to me. Have you ever left a product review, complained about a cup of coffee you received, or rated a service on a 1-5 scale? Do you only comment on these things if you work in the industry in question? If you said yes, you'd be in the extreme minority. While not as insightful from a nuts and bolts standpoint as the sort of feedback from a peer within the field, all of this feedback still has some meaning even if it's from the perspective of a layman.

 

[Deleted member 2620]

Uhh...

Am I missing something here?

He's a bigot now?

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apparently

everyone does bigoted shit (some more than others) and, when called out on it, the productive response is to sincerely listen instead of jumping to the defense

 

[Massicot]

I implore everyone claiming that he wasn't being condescending to please read this thread with an open mind.



https://twitter.com/beaglerush/status/1017050472681598978?s=21

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"It's actually not that hard, just do this." seems like such a slanted mischaracterization of Deroir's tweet, paraphrased to make it sound more condescending as proof that it was condescending.

 

[Falcon511]

He has the right to feel offended, but he got someone fire. Maybe he can learn from this instead of acting it has nothing to do with him and getting the wrong lesson:"GW2 devs are in the obligation to enter in the discussions I want, because that how should it be, if not they are in danger of getting fired"

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Really? I would say the Anet is more responsible for that and that's their fuck up. For firing her.

Prices reaction was of her choosing. She is an adult and adults are responsible for what they say on social media.

He didn't get her fired. She escalated the situation.

 

[svacina]

And yet look at what (or specifically who) it has enabled and validated in the wake of it.

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"But think of the OPTICS!"

 

[mutantmagnet]

I would feel sorry for her had she not used her gender as a reason for everything going wrong. She responded poorly to a guy, who did not say a single thing about her gender, and she was fired for that exchange. If it was solely about her gender, a male coworker of her's would not have been fired alongside her. She refuses to own up to her mistake and decides to just blame everyone else. The company didn't set a mob out to get her, people were angry the moment she sent out a downright disrespectful tweet to someone who did nothing to deserve that kind of treatment.

I still hope she lands on her feet, and i'm sure she will, but throwing everybody around her under the bus is not the way to go about this.

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Keep in mind that bigoted attacks usually are hidden through coded language.

Even then Deroire didn't say anything that could be implied as such.


That's one of the most annoying aspects when talking to other liberals on this. Whe you have to make up stuff to fit this false narrative instead of citing well understood and observed inferrences you are hurting the movement.

 

[HellofaMouse]

I implore everyone claiming that he wasn't being condescending to please read this thread with an open mind.

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i think we should stop linking this. he doesnt even present the facts correctly.

 

[Veggen]

can you link?

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I couldn't find that quote. You'll have to ask Kite if that was what was referred to, or something else.

 

[Super Corpse Soldier]

This idea that you aren't qualified to comment on something unless you have professional background in an industry is baffling to me. How you ever left a product review, complained about a cup of coffee you received, or rated a service on a 1-5 scale? Do you only comment on these things if you work in the industry in question? If you said yes, you'd be in the extreme minority. While not as insightful from a nuts and bolts standpoint as the sort of feedback from a peer within the field, all of this feedback still has some meaning even if it's from the perspective of a layman.

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Seriously. This entire forum is people talking about games, and not always in glowing terms. Disrespectful.

 

[Dick Justice]

Oh look, this shit again. And the usual suspects twisting themselves in knots trying to shift the blame onto the streamer instead of the rude asshole who's actions got herself fired.

 

[Deleted member 5596]

Really? I would say the Anet is more responsible for that and that's their fuck up. For firing her.

Prices reaction was of her choosing. She is an adult and adults are responsible for what they say on social media.

He didn't get her fired. She escalated the situation.

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He did it, indirectly, but he did it. His reaction sparked the sexist community that needs very little excuse to jump over a female dev.

 

[L Thammy]

I don't have much more to say about this whole thing, but I find it really weird that someone would end a tweet with a hashtag insisting that they're a feminist when the content of the rest of the tweet has nothing to do with feminism, but is just suggesting that the woman he was talking to shut down the discussion and dragged him into an issue he didn't actually want to discuss.

 

[Deleted member 24907]

Jessica hopped on Twitter today to address the issue and offer what I think is a really important point: ArenaNet's actions, and tactics, were on their face more disrespectful than anything Jessica said to a member of the community. A selection of her posts:



Full thread: https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/1017103133955117056

ArenaNet could very well have redirected this conversation and clarify how a slag aimed at one uninvited Twitter comment, even if you want to call it unprofessional, was NOT equivalent to an attack on all fans and all outside criticism. (Which is the narrative that the mob began to immediately carry and make a game out of.) ArenaNet bought into that false narrative and reinforced it. Props to Jessica for continuing to be vocal about her perspective in the face of so much armchair criticism all over the Internet (not specifically aimed at commenters here, btw).

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What's hilariously ironic about ArenaNet is the finger wagging aimed at Price for not doing things internally...even though they themselves made her firing a public flogging even though they could've...you know...reprimanded her internally.

 

[Trejo]

He has the right to feel offended, but he got someone fire. Maybe he can learn from this instead of acting it has nothing to do with him and getting the wrong lesson:"GW2 devs are in the obligation to enter in the discussions I want, because that how should it be, if not they are in danger of getting fired"

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He did no such thing. Someone got someone fired. There is such a thing as personal responsibility for your actions and no amount of trying to paint the other party as "the enemy" is going to change that.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

With the approval of the OP we've updated the thread and title with additional articles so that people will be able to catch up on and discuss the wider Arenanet controversy.

 

[DerpHause]

I honestly have no interest in continuing a conversation with a response like this. I just hope you and everyone here readthe twitter threads posted here and realize that this conversation has moved well beyond whether she was rude to the guy or not.

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It has, which is in part due to the mass publication of the incident and continual conversation around the disagreement. But if you think allowing Price to be an asshat by calling someone else an asshat undeservingly would make other sexist asshats stop being sexist asshats I'm not sure what to tell you.

I think sexist asshats don't get to be a reason Anet can't run it's business though.

Of course he fucking was. The is no polite way to tell a veteran of the industry that they are doing their job wrong, specifically regarding their exact area of expertise, when you yourself have no relevant experience the field.

It was not a conversation between equals, and assuming that whatever he heard on YouTube or era or wherever else gave him even standing is rude, regardless of what exact language he used. And while I can't crawl inside his brain to figure out exactly what he was thinking at the time, when you see a man actively depreciating the expertise of a woman, it's not unreasonable to start a conversation about sexism.

The only thing you can reasonably point to and say she did something wrong is her choice of the word "asshat", which she probably shouldn't have done, even though he was being one.

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Good thing he wasn't telling her she was doing her job wrong. Conversations don't need to be between equals to be valid and there is no specific qualifier to expressing opinions, especially when those with professional experience can share it to correct any misconceptions. That was the opportunity presented to Price. She discarded it and the presenter. Even simply choosing not to respond would have avoided this.

This gatekeeping BS coming out of the woodwork that determines who is worthy to respond to public social media posts is telling.

 

[Trace]

Oh look, this shit again. And the usual suspects twisting themselves in knots trying to shift the blame onto the streamer instead of the rude asshole who's actions got herself fired.

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Pretty much. There's no arguing with people that have already painted an innocent dude to be some sort of coded closet sexist piece of shit, and accusing anyone that thinks that maybe that's going a step too far to be standing for hate groups.

 

[BeeKaine]

With the approval of the OP we've updated the thread and title with additional articles so that people will be able to catch up on and discuss the wider Arenanet controversy.

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I think you just might have to keep this one open for good.

 

[Casual]

And yet look at what (or specifically who) it has enabled and validated in the wake of it.

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Internet is gonna internet I guess.

That doesn't make the firing less justifiable. Don't disrespect your customers on a public forum. PR 101.

 

[BabyMurloc]

I also think American developers ought to focus less on social media and more on collective bargaining. As in, a proper union could've prevented the firing but airing everything over Twitter will likely be only damaging to everyone involved.

 

[Chorazin]

i think we should stop linking this. he doesnt even present the facts correctly.

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How so? He links directly to the tweets being discussed.

What facts are incorrect?

 

[Weltall Zero]

I don't think being "progressive" have anything to do with her firing at all.

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That makes the two of us, which makes me wonder why did you reply to my post asking precisely that.

 

[Vela]

Oh look, this shit again. And the usual suspects twisting themselves in knots trying to shift the blame onto the streamer instead of the rude asshole who's actions got herself fired.

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Arena Net is the one to blame

 

[Dick Justice]

Arena Net is the one to blame

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Arena Net directly insulted and belittled a fan over Twitter?

 

[BDS]

I work in customer service. If you figured out where I worked, would it be justified to get me fired because I was mean to you on ResetERA?

 

[balgajo]

He has the right to feel offended, but he got someone fire. Maybe he can learn from this instead of acting it has nothing to do with him and getting the wrong lesson:"GW2 devs are in the obligation to enter in the discussions I want, because that how should it be, if not they are in danger of getting fired"

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Wow...time to bail out from this thread.

 

[Kinthey]

How so? He links directly to the tweets being discussed.

What facts are incorrect?

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He calls out Deroir for acting offended and going from "0 to a 100" after Price merely responded with the passive agressive post and the 9_9, but ignores that before Deroir even responded, she had also made two tweets on her timeline where she publicly called Deroir out and called him a rando asshat, so it makes total sense he'd assume that she's mad.

It wasn't him who lost his temper first (if you can even call it that) but her.

 

[Deleted member 24907]

Arena Net directly insulted and belittled a fan over Twitter?

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ArenaNet emboldened GamerGate by making her firing a public flogging. For a so-called progressive developer, it's bizarre they somehow didn't see that coming.

 

[Deleted member 5764]

Wow... I just got caught up on all of this. What a shitty situation all around honestly. I'll try to keep this brief by just having bullet points for my thoughts. Here goes:

- I can definitely emphasize with Price's plight here. I've seen the type of harassment that women in games experience on a daily basis, so I really don't blame her for the way she read into that tweet.

- I think the twitter interaction seems much worse when you have added context. I don't blame Price for not doing extensive research on the guy who tweeted at her before replying just for extra background. From her perspective, you can easily read that as someone trying to "mansplain" her job.

- I think Price made some moves that inadvertently linked that Twitter account to her employer. IE, mentioning her job title in the bio while not also making it clear that it was her personal account. I've had a few jobs where they heavily stress that you can be punished for not making that distinction on social media.

- I don't feel like firing her or the other writer was the right choice. Based on my point above, a reprimand and discussion about making her personal profile more clearly labelled sounds like a better outcome.

- Finally, I find it absolutely dreadful that this is empowering terrible people to harass other employers. I don't believe that the original guy had malicious intent, but folks who are coming out in the aftermath sure as hell do.

 

[Vela]

Arena Net directly insulted and belittled a fan over Twitter?

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You can read some articles in the OP to understand why Arena Net fucked up badly and basically catered to a hate mob that now is emboldened to harass other female developers