The controversial ArenaNet firings of Guild Wars 2 writers (READ OP)

[Deleted member 15326]

How so? He links directly to the tweets being discussed.

What facts are incorrect?

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He downplays Price's actions and makes a lot of assumptions about Deroir's motivations

The tweets themselves are available for all to see so there's really no point in trying to put a spin on them that either pushes hard for the firing or places Price beyond reproach

 

[Arkanius]

I work in customer service. If you figured out where I worked, would it be justified to get me fired because I was mean to you on ResetERA?

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Are you doing it while discussing your work or your company online?
Then no.

 

[Trace]

I work in customer service. If you figured out where I worked, would it be justified to get me fired because I was mean to you on ResetERA?

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If we were in a thread talking about your customer service job, while you had "I work at X" in your profile?

Yes. Context matters.

 

[Neutra]

I work in customer service. If you figured out where I worked, would it be justified to get me fired because I was mean to you on ResetERA?

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Does your employer know you post here? Is your job title stated in your profile? I'd assume they would fire you or at least discipline you if your posting history makes them look bad.

 

[svacina]

I work in customer service. If you figured out where I worked, would it be justified to get me fired because I was mean to you on ResetERA?

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Were we talking about your products while you had your company's logo under your avatar?

 

[Trejo]

Arena Net is the one to blame

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They certainly could've handled things a whole lot better that's for sure.

 

[Super Corpse Soldier]

I work in customer service. If you figured out where I worked, would it be justified to get me fired because I was mean to you on ResetERA?

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That would depend on exactly what you did or said. I think everyone can agree that irregardless of this specific case there is a breaking point where public behavior and statements outside of the company will get you justifiably fired.

 

[Ralemont]

I implore everyone claiming that he wasn't being condescending to please read this thread with an open mind.

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It's been linked a few times. If we want to evaluate things in this way, by recontextualizing someone's words, unfairly paraphrasing and summarizing, assuming negative motives and such, then fine I guess. But to then not do the same to Price's comments reveals such a spectacular bad faith argumentation that it's difficult to take seriously.

 

[Khanimus]

Internet is gonna internet I guess.

That doesn't make the firing less justifiable. Don't disrespect your customers on a public forum. PR 101.

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And yet ArenaNet could have handled this in a way that didn't validate a bunch of angry misogynists.

Instead, they very vocally tossed her to the wolves, which only has managed to encourage these same types of people to go after women (in an already unabashedly sexist industry) at other companies.

 

[DerpHause]

And? He still went out of his way to express his utter disappointment instead of simply not responding.

I'm not defending Price's temperament, I'm pushing back against a bizarre narrative of trying to put Deroir on a pedestal.

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And? Why is expressing disappointment, again without being rude, now suddenly an issue?

Saying Derior didn't do anything worthy of the response isn't putting him on a pedestal. It's simply looking at what we have from him and making a judgement.

Everyone covering for these people is deliberately enabling a hate group.

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Who is covering for anyone here? I'm only seeing people arguing over the appropriateness of responding with disagreement to a public conversation at best along that line.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I implore everyone claiming that he wasn't being condescending to please read this thread with an open mind.

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I read the whole thing. He's falling into the same hypocritical trap of many by agreeing with Price's assertion that she's "off the clock" when literally no one else fired for social media nonsense (sometimes not even with their place of employment right next to their name) is afforded the same level of generosity. He's also making a lot of assumptions about Derior's intent when the stream just a day prior contradicts it.

So yeah, read the whole thing with an open mind and will now have no problem disagreeing with it.

 

[BeeKaine]

I work in customer service. If you figured out where I worked, would it be justified to get me fired because I was mean to you on ResetERA?

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If you decided to changed your profile to say you represent your company, then called the manager's, I dunno, brother? Stockholder. Then called the company's male stockholder a sexist cocksucker for, fucking, disliking Steven Universe, well, you're on the right track. Well, but first, you'd probably be banned from ResetERA.

Now mind you there is a difference between the structure and design of a gaming company that produces a popular MMO with tight consumer feedback and presumably a blue-collar retail job. Your example would probably still be very behind-the-scenes and wouldn't be aired on Twitter nor made into a controversy.

You do realize that shit like this happens all the time, right?

Nevermind that ResetERA is niche as shit, no matter how many ResetERAs tell you otherwise.

Say nasty shit on GameFAQs, no one outside of GameFAQs would care.

 

[Deleted member 15326]

I work in customer service. If you figured out where I worked, would it be justified to get me fired because I was mean to you on ResetERA?

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Deroir did not get Price fired.

 

[Chorazin]

He downplays Price's actions and makes a lot of assumptions about Deroir's motivations

The tweets themselves are available for all to see so there's really no point in trying to put a spin on them that either pushes hard for the firing or places Price beyond reproach

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Reading the tweets, I definitely agreed with his take on them.

His wording is basically like when someone says "Have a great day." in a way that leaves no uncertainty that they really wanted to say "Go fuck yourself."

 

[Leek]

How so? He links directly to the tweets being discussed.

What facts are incorrect?

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He claims that the firings happened in response to people on Reddit calling for it. That's not a fact, and the official response from ArenaNet claims otherwise.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Typically firing employees for being rude to customers is an act that any progressive company would do, regardless of whether that act itself was considered one that made them progressive.

The 2 things as a general point should have little relevance to each other, yet here we are.

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is your argument that [edited for clarity] a progressive company would not be more (nor, probably, less) likely to fire an employee in this situation, or that a progressive company would indeed be more likely to fire them than a less progressive one, even though the firing itself would not be a progressive action? If it's the former, I agree. If it's the latter, I would want to know the rationale.

You can but the general consensus seems to be he wasn't.

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It seems to me that if such a consensus existed, this thread would not be over 400 posts long.

 

[Super Corpse Soldier]

You can read some articles in the OP to understand why Arena Net fucked up badly and basically catered to a hate mob that now is emboldened to harass other female developers

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So Anet should have suspended punishment for breaking code of conduct when engaging with the community just because GamerGate and KIA get their jollies off on this sort of thing?

 

[Puck Beaverton]

The only thing I'm sure of is ArenaNet publicly firing her was a shitty move.

 

[Pabz]

The worst part of this is the precedent it sets. Now these anonymous people who just yell at employees on Twitter all day now have a greater sense of entitlement. We're heading in a very dangerous position when it comes to costumer entitlement

 

[oni-link]

I feel like the firing was justifiable, I don't think the company I work for would tolirate me talking to someone like that while affiliating myself with the company

 

[Dick Justice]

ArenaNet emboldened GamerGate by making her firing a public flogging. For a so-called progressive developer, it's bizarre they somehow didn't see that coming.

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You can disagree with how Arenanet handled the firing and such. But the whole debacle came about because of the employee's behaviour. No one forced her to act like she did towards a customer.

 

[Arkanius]

Reading the tweets, I definitely agreed with his take on them.

His wording is basically like when someone says "Have a great day." in a way that leaves no uncertainty that they really wanted to say "Go fuck yourself."

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The tweet where he says "Sorry I offended you" is AFTER she already called him a "rando asshat" before hand on a seperate tweet thread.

 

[spman2099]

i think we should stop linking this. he doesnt even present the facts correctly.

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While I agree that he doesn't present the situation particularly well in his own words, he does at least link the actual tweets. So, ultimately, I don't think it is misleading, even if I don't think his take is particularly edifying either.

 

[Kinthey]

Reading the tweets, I definitely agreed with his take on them.

His wording is basically like when someone says "Have a great day." in a way that leaves no uncertainty that they really wanted to say "Go fuck yourself."

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That's really just pure assumption, and keep in mind that this was already after she shamed him publicly and called him a rando asshat.

 

[BabyMurloc]

It's a bit of a hoist by your own petard since the cause celebre of many social mediaites is to get someone fired for saying bad things on the internet (which I don't necessarily disagree with, it just needs to be codified).

On a general note Winston Churchill had it right: "You will never reach your destination if you stop and throw stones at every dog that barks."

 

[BDS]

If I posted a thought on my Twitter and you started giving me unsolicited responses and I told you to fuck off, that would be a justifiable firing offense? I'm considered a 24/7 employee because my Twitter bio mentions where I work?

The fact that people keep wrapping themselves into pretzels to come up with minute details that supposedly justify firing her makes no sense when you look at the actual comments people are posting on the GW2 subreddit and elsewhere: she deserves to be fired because she's a feminist SJW who insulted the God Emperor John Bain and then called someone a sexist (Ron Howard: "She didn't") when he gave her unsolicited job advice. These people would be calling for her head regardless of whether her bio explicity mentioned working at Arenanet or whether or not the discussion was specifically about her game. It's a smokescreen and you gullible, hate-enabling fools are falling right into it in your desperate attempt to railroad a woman for being mean and disrespectful to a man -- the absolute most heinous crime a woman can commit.

 

[DerpHause]

is your argument that any company regardless of progressiveness would fire an employee in this situation, or that a progressive company would indeed be more likely to fire them than a less progressive one, even though the firing itself would not be a progressive action? If it's the former I agree. If it's the latter, I would want to know the rationale.

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It's the former.

It seems to me that if such a consensus existed, this thread would not be over 400 posts long.

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Fair enough.

 

[Blade Wolf]

This situation has gotten really ugly. It was murky from the onset, but it has only become more so. The people who I tend to be ideologically aligned with are making a lot of bad faith arguments, and anyone who disagrees with them is being branded as a bigot. This seems like it is turning into a giant proxy battle...

A situation that started off as unfortunate has become a complete shitshow. I doubt anyone is going to walk away from this situation looking good, though I am sure it will be a giant feather in the hat of every gamergater.

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Like I said many times before, this is NOT how we fight gamergaters, this is not how we fight misogyny and sexism. If we really want to make a difference we have to be more reasonable, equitable, honest and fair going forward.

This whole ''She was wrong but she's a poor woman so she's not all wrong and me must defend her'' approach is only going to make more people dislike us. I want equal rights for men and women and other genders as well, but as much as I hate to say this, our bias has to stop.

Arena Net is the one to blame

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See? This is exactly what I'm talking about. We have to stop.

Firing is too harsh yes, but she's clearly the one that's wrong here, and Deroir certainly didn't ''got her fired'', if anything he handle the whole situation very mature.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

EDit: better asked in pms

 

[svacina]

The worst part of this is the precedent it sets. Now these anonymous people who just yell at employees on Twitter all day now have a greater sense of entitlement. We're heading in a very dangerous position when it comes to costumer entitlement

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Again, this is total bollocks.

a) GG has tried this shit for years, they do not need this "precedent" to keep at it
b) as the Arkane brouhaha clearly demonstrates, it does not work cos they are a bunch of muppets

 

[crienne]

And yet ArenaNet could have handled this in a way that didn't validate a bunch of angry misogynists.

Instead, they very vocally tossed her to the wolves, which only has managed to encourage these same types of people to go after women (in an already unabashedly sexist industry) at other companies.

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This is what it comes down to. O'Brien firing Price was an emotional and rash decision that should've been handled in a better way. That goes doubly so for Fries.

If ANet had come out with a short statement that said, "Price and Fries were let go today. Expect our full statement tomorrow" and then let HR/PR/Legal draft up a non-emotional statement explaining their process, it may, MAY, have gone over better.

No matter what kind of person Price was, what happened to her and Peter Fries should have gone any number of ways that aren't straight-up termination.

 

[Chorazin]

He claims that the firings happened in response to people on Reddit calling for it. That's not a fact, and the official response from ArenaNet claims otherwise.

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Would the company really say "Shoutouts to the GG mob from the bowels of Reddit in opening our eyes to this heinous offense!"

Of course they won't say that, so it's not really a "fact" just their presentation of the reasoning for termination.

 

[Trickster]

The only thing I'm sure of is ArenaNet publicly firing her was a shitty move.

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Seems like a pretty normal thing to do in this kind of situation?

 

[Deleted member 5596]

He did no such thing. Someone got someone fired. There is such a thing as personal responsibility for your actions and no amount of trying to paint the other party as "the enemy" is going to change that.

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That's the problem, she called asshat to someone, not only him but other people who was acting like that. If that's enough for woman in this industry to get harassed until her employer fires her, we have a problem.

If you and many people in this thread can't see she had reason enough to be annoyed, we have a problem.

And if you and many people in this thread that he didn't acted in an appropriate way, we have a problem.

We have a problem with the consideration of labour rights compared which the overwhelming rights we take for granted as customers, like having the right to have discussions on personal employees social accounts when is not her job.

And the many problems still have minorities in this hobby and it's the people who are part of it.

 

[Massicot]

If I posted a thought on my Twitter and you started giving me unsolicited responses and I told you to fuck off, that would be a justifiable firing offense? I'm considered a 24/7 employee because my Twitter bio mentions where I work?
.

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Is the birth of your twitter thread based on an AMA you wanted to follow up and expand on?

 

[Deleted member 24907]

And? Why is expressing disappointment, again without being rude, now suddenly an issue?

Saying Derior didn't do anything worthy of the response isn't putting him on a pedestal. It's simply looking at what we have from him and making a judgement.

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Yes, he was being rude. He was flatly told his opinion wasn't wanted (Yes, Price was rude when she did this, before anybody tries to bring that up for the millionth time), instead of simply not replying he made sure to publicly post how disappointed he was with her.

Which goes back to the same post I made a couple of pages back: being polite does not mean being respectful. He was polite, but not respectful at that point. He wasn't withdrawing himself from the conversation, because if he had, he would've withdrawn himself from the conversation and note responded. At that point what he was doing was attracting attention and finger wagging with all the making sure she knew how disappointed he was.

 

[BDS]

Is there no place to talk about the media's seemingly biased view of the situation?

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https://www.reddit.com/r/kotakuinaction

Go have fun.

 

[Vela]

The way that many posters in this community has reacted to this event and the ensuing fallout is a huge black mark on any form of progressiveness and tolerance that the forum brands itself as. It tells me that there isn't much understanding of women's situations in the games industry and that there is a disconnect in understanding what happened in 2014 with Gamergate. It is basically nothing more than another gaming subreddit or forum that is hostile and excluding of women and their existence in gaming spaces.

On top of that, it seems posters here care less about workers and their rights than multimillion companies and their large power over their workers whom they can fire at will for basically any reason. This community is supposed to be supportive of the people who make the games that people love, yet this situation makes it clear that posters would rather believe in companies than workers.

It is disappointing and actually soul-crushing to read the responses.

 

[Dekim]

So Anet should have suspended punishment for breaking code of conduct when engaging with the community just because GamerGate and KIA get their jollies off on this sort of thing?

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Apparently the new standard is that if GG can somehow claim credit for it, it should not be done. Regardless of how justifiable doing the action may be.

 

[Trace]

If I posted a thought on my Twitter and you started giving me unsolicited responses and I told you to fuck off, that would be a justifiable firing offense? I'm considered a 24/7 employee because my Twitter bio mentions where I work?

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Have you been missing this entire conversation? If you are a employee of a company, with your company affiliation proudly displayed in your profile, talking about your job on Twitter, and you respond to a customer by telling them to "fuck off", your company is justified in disciplining you up to and including firing.

 

[Casual]

If I posted a thought on my Twitter and you started giving me unsolicited responses and I told you to fuck off, that would be a justifiable firing offense? I'm considered a 24/7 employee because my Twitter bio mentions where I work?

The fact that people keep wrapping themselves into pretzels to come up with minute details that supposedly justify firing her makes no sense when you look at the actual comments people are posting on the GW2 subreddit and elsewhere: she deserves to be fired because she's a feminist SJW who insulted the God Emperor John Bain and then called someone a sexist (Ron Howard: "She didn't") when he gave her unsolicited job advice. These people would be calling for her head regardless of whether her bio explicity mentioned working at Arenanet or whether or not the discussion was specifically about her game. It's a smokescreen and you gullible, hate-enabling fools are falling right into it in your desperate attempt to railroad a woman for being mean and disrespectful to a man -- the absolute most heinous crime a woman can commit.

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Unsolicited responses? Is there even a such thing as that if you're posting on Twitter?

She was also talking about work related things, on an account where she explicitly mentions her job.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Oh look, this shit again. And the usual suspects twisting themselves in knots trying to shift the blame onto the streamer instead of the rude asshole who's actions got herself fired.

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i think most people agree that the company is mainly to blame

however, the company's narrative is that Price unprovoked started attacking (a member of) their community

their argument hinges on price being completely unreasonable

in that context, it makes sense to look into whether the comments from the streamer were patronizing or not

it's not about assigning all the blame to the streamer, but just about showing how he was being patronizing in order to explain how price was not being completely unreasonable in her response to him

 

[Draconis]

I work in customer service. If you figured out where I worked, would it be justified to get me fired because I was mean to you on ResetERA?

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In the context of this question, so long as it is not related to your work itself you would be fine.

Where Employers in the states draw the line is when your actions directly impact the visibility of your company in front of others. For example, your actions may seem benign, but vitriolic and hurtful statements slung about where one is drawing their company into it may affect contracts, sales, and far deeper things that you as an individual may not have insight into, but the executive team would as they would see the impact the clearest.


If you were to argue against someone about say, pizza toppings though and not mention your work place at all, you would be fine.



I deal with stress, immense stress at my workplace all day. And all the time. But even though I may have heated feelings towards some folks, doesn't mean that I as a professional can call them out in public and say they are horrible people. That would get me fired in a heartbeat, no matter how private I tried to make it, due to the contracts, sales, partner reactions, and the pr nightmare I would cause by my actions for the account managers and csms of my company.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Edit: better taken to PMs

 

[Veggen]

He calls out Deroir for acting offended and going from "0 to a 100" after Price merely responded with the passive agressive post and the 9_9, but ignores that before Deroir even responded, she had also made two tweets on her timeline where she publicly called Deroir out and called him a rando asshat, so it makes total sense he'd assume that she's mad.

It wasn't him who lost his temper first (if you can even call it that) but her.

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I made that faulty assumption too, because it's presented as a chronological event. Good job on checking the time of each post.

Arena Net is the one to blame

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Yeah, this.

 

[svacina]

If I posted a thought on my Twitter and you started giving me unsolicited responses and I told you to fuck off, that would be a justifiable firing offense? I'm considered a 24/7 employee because my Twitter bio mentions where I work?

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Could somebody explain to me what an "unsolicited response" on a fucking twitter is? Is this related to the fabled "don't @me, bro" thing I've heard so much about?

 

[Balmung421]

The way that many posters in this community has reacted to this event and the ensuing fallout is a huge black mark on any form of progressiveness and tolerance that the forum brands itself as. It tells me that there isn't much understanding of women's situations in the games industry and that there is a disconnect in understanding what happened in 2014 with Gamergate. It is basically nothing more than another gaming subreddit or forum that is hostile and excluding of women and their existence in gaming spaces.

On top of that, it seems posters here care less about workers and their rights than multimillion companies and their large power over their workers whom they can fire at will for basically any reason. This community is supposed to be supportive of the people who make the games that people love, yet this situation makes it clear that posters would rather believe in companies than workers.

It is disappointing and actually soul-crushing to read the responses.

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Was just typing up something similar. I am CRUSHED at some of these responses.

 

[bad_carbs]

That makes the two of us, which makes me wonder why did you reply to my post asking precisely that.

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I guess you were being facetious with that post? I honestly can't tell anymore

 

[TheSubsequentStrajack]

Price's response to a comment containing 0 vitriol or snark was thermonuclear and completely unwarranted. Good riddance. No room for people like that in a professional environment.

 

[marrec]

What a mess.

Beyond anything else, I agree with Price about the framing of the firing by ArenaNET. As much as I think the firing was justified, as justified as firing an At-Will employee for being rude to a customer can be in our age of post-capitalism, the way AN framed it allowed the entire debacle to become a wedge issue for various self-serving groups pry at. I suppose in some ways its a good thing, because these kind of firings are all too common in various industries... I say that knowing that I would absolutely fire one of my employees for repeated infractions of the same type.

Really though, the ongoing vilification of Derior and Price by nameless cockheels on the internet is the fucking worst.

The only "teachable" moment here is for employers to be more aware of their public messaging around employment changes... I guess.

Also, don't be rude to customers publicly on accounts that are tangentially related to your employer. Just as like, a general bit of advice I would give to anyone really. You never know what will escalate and with who. I may be biased though because I deal with customers on the behalf of an employer all day.