Fixed.
no accountability =/= she shouldn't get fired over this
There are several levels that Anet could have punished Price, they went for the nuclear option alongside someone who just defended her.
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The controversial ArenaNet firings of Guild Wars 2 writers (READ OP)
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Fixed.
no accountability =/= she shouldn't get fired over this
There are several levels that Anet could have punished Price, they went for the nuclear option alongside someone who just defended her.
Actually no, I don't think people should chill just so moderates are comfortable.
Whataboutism for sure, but would some examples of male employees at video game companies getting fired for badmouthing "the fans" make you happy? What are you looking for?
You keep doing this posturing about everyone being misinformed so we shouldn't rush to judgement but everyone can pretty clear see what side you've landed on lol.
But yeah, sure, the 15 year employee with the milquetoast tweets was surely a massive HR shitstirrer behind the scenes so we better wait for the facts fellas. In the meantime, let's go after the shifty media and also pretty clearly imply Price is the devil.
Correct. I'm saying NO ONE should be getting away with completely dismissing someone with nonsense. Regardless of gender.
You can't have a conversation when people come in and pretend to be dumb instead of engaging in all the arguments presented.
This won't change until the mod team gets more on the case in this thread. And I honestly am losing any interest in engaging in good faith after the 20th
"Jessica price deserved this. What do you mean with Peter Fries? Who is that? Why is this about gender again?"
It is just absolutely baffling after 8 years of documented garbage people still cannot give the slightest big of empathy here. Every judgement is made in a vaccuum of personal bias.
That to but I think it was mainly because arena net has been on a series of bad Subreddit PR. They probably thought firing the employees will win them a few points but instead blew up.
Anyway since the middle of June are arena net has been dealing with a fanbase that complained about the release of its living story episode even though the company promises a timeframe of 2 to 3 months. This release was closer to the 3 month but still within the previously expected time.
The players freaked the fuck out demanding an explanation. Eventually arena net gave them one about the issues. Unfortunately, at release it was buggy and unplayable but after a day it was fixed.
The other issue was, it was just too short and had a lot of missing content. Then a few days later this happens.
As usual arena net wanted the cheap easy pr win and predictably overcorrected.
You can make an argue about Price, but a lot of pro-fire have just ignored Peter Fries, because they cannot come up with a good justification for a coworker getting fired without warning for defending a co-worker. And here arena net thought it was going to be an easy win for them.
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Companies to stop appeasing toxic communities they've created.
A) Kamiya is so utterly dickish on twitter that it pretty much wraps back around to hilarious. Plus, at this point I'm pretty sure he's just doing it for the sake of his brand
B) Kamiya acts like a dick to everyone, versus Price who called out one specific person for nonsensical reasons
This wasn't in regard to company policy, but how outraged people are over how Price acted toward a customer. From a consumer standpoint the more senior the position the more you should be outraged, yet the same rules don't seem to apply for someone like Kamiya than they do Price
Actually these rules didn't even seem to *exist* before this happened. It just seems like a huge reaction to people trying to justify why they think a woman should be fired for being rude
haha
I should watch that movie again. Or at least find a compilation of Freeze's parts.
The part that really got me was the "Don't expect me to pretend to like you here.", instantly outing that she, in fact, dislikes the customers she is supposed to be serving. Can't really expect someone who doesn't even pretend to like their customers to do their best job.
Also I told you insects 100000000000 times that Kamiya should've probably been fired by now for doing nothing but tweeting all day.
Also I told you insects 100000000000 times that Kamiya should've probably been fired by now for doing nothing but tweeting all day.
In other words, "he's wacky and Japanese so it's OK, but she was just being a non-sensical woman who doesn't know what's she's talking about."
Interesting insight into what was going on with the community before this.
the side i landed on was the fact that Price's tweets were 100% irresponsible, rude, and reason enough for termination.
i havent said anything about peter fries, because, again, i dont know enough about that, none of us do.
there is probably still a lot of things we dont know about price's situation within the company as well, but the stuff thats out in the open is enough to form an opinion on that.
I've had warnings and bans overturned after further review. It's not uncommon here.
Cliffy B routinely had long threads on GAF shitting on him for his social media behaviour. Adam Orth was eviscerated on GAF with memes and celebration of him leaving MS due to anger around his behaviour. Jay Wilson was shit on as well with long topics on GAF about his fuck that guy comments, and while Blizzard didn't fire him he was sent grovelling - https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/6398870250
Kamiya does seem to get away with more, but that's not to say he doesn't get called out by people pissed off at his brash behaviour (or upset when they get banned), but for better or worse he's managed to create a social media character around his banning and snark. Not everyone gets "Hideki Kamiya" level "privilege" on social media.
I'm not linking to any more GAF topics but just search
"Jay Wilson neogaf"
"Cliffy B neogaf"
"Adam Orth neogaf"
in Google and quickly remember history around some other notable mouthpieces who have said things on social media and ended up facing consequences.
It happens and it's not always equal as each employer might act differently and/or your position in the company does sometimes give you a veneer of privilege. I think a thing with Hideki Kamiya is him behaving cool and decent in real life, so his social media account is treated more like an act or overly stimulated behaviour. Like some sort of comedian.
developer's don't fucking 'serve' the people who buy their games. jesus christ. they don't, and should not, and to suggest otherwise says something PROFOUNDLY fucking depressing about the medium as an art form.
they owe NOTHING to people who are being assholes to them, whether they spend money on the game they helped make or not.
Nonsensical? There is more sense in Price's tweets than Kamiya telling people to fuck off for saying they like one of his games
Just because your brand is that you act like a dickhead doesn't excuse you for acting like a dickhead. Either you think people on twitter who represent their companies should have to work with a certain amount of civility or they don't. You don't get to pick and choose
There are, and there's an argument to be made regarding severity. That argument doesn't start with calling Deroir out again and pretending the only other option was walking on eggshells as was the beginning of that chain.
That's the nature of the platform. "Join the conversation" is basically their slogan. Make your account private or post on a different platform if you're not looking for anyone to respond to you.
Honestly, if rules are broken, people generally suffer the consequences. Isn't that how it's supposed to go? You make an account here, and the post etiquette it pretty cut and dry.
Off top is also another one, so that's all I am going to say about this.
That excuse is given all the time when someone is given the boot.
Look at this White House Administration.
What she did was not worth firing over. They caved to mob pressure. If she had set fire to the office we wouldn't be talking about this. Well I guess we would, but not for the same reasons.
off topic but now I want to eat ice cream for some reason : (
The second we started to bark at each other even the thinnest veneer of civility had peeled away...
That being said, I do think the Kamiya comparison is an interesting one. Why is it that if you engage positively with your community, but then make a shitty remark, that is a problem, but if you are always a giant asshole it is strangely endearing? I am guessing people are just giving Kamiya, specifically, a giant pass...? Or maybe we see it as some form of a satirical character? I honestly don't know, but it is definitely a double standard of some sort.
More like "She made it about her being a woman, which makes everyone put on their very serious hat, then she says she doesn't have to be nice to her (ANet's) customers on twitter, which in very serious mode is no-no and she got fired."
So, in your view, what should a female game developer on Twitter do if she wants to talk about her work in one of the places where many game devs talk about her work in a way that will allow it to be interacted with by people she trusts and looks up too, while not getting spammed with helpful messages about how to do her job?
The difference is Jay Wilson's comment was actually from a private facebook group/conversation, it wasn't public, somebody took a screenshot of it and made it public. It was also wasn't about the fans/community, it was about another developer he clearly didn't like, who actually basically said "I could do Jay's job better then he and the Diablo team currently are doing"
Both arguments are compatible. She got mad at him with reasons so, she was rude? sure, dosn't mean it wasn't warranted. It gaves context about the reaction she had and what the post about gender mean it. It dosn't matter if Deroir intended it voluntarily or unvoluntarily, that's how it came across.
Kamiya blocking people for no reason is better than calling out someone and accusing him of being sexist when there is no basis for it
so just because there is precedent, this is definitely a case of a corrupt corporate hierarchy?
how is coming to that, incredibly accusatory conclusion without proper information any different from what gamergaters did?
OK, so you didn't actually care about Jay Wilson not getting fired.
Im not too interested in talking about kamiya but his twitter account is to me more like a heel wrestler in kayfabe with people purposely saying stupid shit so a funny response can be made.
Huh...someone here should explain how businesses work
Like do people truly and sincerely think that if a dude dev on twitter replied to someone calling them an asshat that they would get fired? Do they think that it would even gain enough tractaion to warrant a thread here?
User banned (1 week): downplaying sexism and online harassment campaigns, account still in junior stage
There's also the fact that Price used sexims as a shield to deflect the criticism that she was getting from the Guild wars 2 community for her tweets when her being a woman had nothing with it. That is not okay.
That's an oversimplification of the platform and the situation. Just because you can reply to something doesn't mean it's always appropriate or wanted. Twitter users and gamers are dense when it comes to social intelligence and etiquette. Telling someone to buzz off when they've overreached is not a valid reason to get fired.
Lack of empathy is a hard thing to work with.
This is something we've been discussing for years and years, how abusive and toxic interactions work, how it affects the people involved and where it comes from. There's not an easy way to contextualize everything that is happening right now without reaching unnerving parallels, realizing how quickly the general perspective can change depending on who is considered the victim, and the mental mental gymnastics behind every bit of effort to isolate each case in favor of dismissing urgent problems, going to a high level of inconsistency and narratives that only fits in benefit of each social bubble handled like a shiny shield.
It bears not only cognitive dissonance, but a really dangerous way of manipulating facts and filtering merely what affects the intimacy of specific personal spaces. It's not about that, them, it's about us and/or me.
We're going into places of insecurity, ignorance and fragility. Realities that are one-sided to its limits, pursuing hate for the sake of protecting itself, confronting every risk like a furious attack towards a unique perspective. Blowing things out of proportion, using scapegoats, marginalizing minorities and by consequence, hunting exploits to cowardly justify infuriating acts of injustice and toxic nature.
People are treated like humans only when they're part of a very special group, with the rights that they earned by...what exactly? Oh yeah, always being on the top and not having to deal with common problems which somehow they can't even figure out, that it's their own fault to begin with.
Developers like Kamiya are out there, shouting at fans and interactig the exact way they feel like. The difference? They're mostly white men, and that makes it just a joke, a charismatic behaviour and just their personal views which they are "allowed"/free to express, for the sake of freedom of speech, they say, when it suits better for them, obviously.
I can't not express how disgusted i am with the fragility of the community behind this, the insecurity taking over everytime and creating basically witch hunts because people like Price are standing up for themselves and discussing well known issues with their honest viewpoint, which is ironically the most precious ideal within the kind of group attacking her.
Developers are humans, she deserves her own personal space and we need to stop pretending this woman crossed such a sacred line.
This is something we've been discussing for years and years, how abusive and toxic interactions work, how it affects the people involved and where it comes from. There's not an easy way to contextualize everything that is happening right now without reaching unnerving parallels, realizing how quickly the general perspective can change depending on who is considered the victim, and the mental mental gymnastics behind every bit of effort to isolate each case in favor of dismissing urgent problems, going to a high level of inconsistency and narratives that only fits in benefit of each social bubble handled like a shiny shield.
It bears not only cognitive dissonance, but a really dangerous way of manipulating facts and filtering merely what affects the intimacy of specific personal spaces. It's not about that, them, it's about us and/or me.
We're going into places of insecurity, ignorance and fragility. Realities that are one-sided to its limits, pursuing hate for the sake of protecting itself, confronting every risk like a furious attack towards a unique perspective. Blowing things out of proportion, using scapegoats, marginalizing minorities and by consequence, hunting exploits to cowardly justify infuriating acts of injustice and toxic nature.
People are treated like humans only when they're part of a very special group, with the rights that they earned by...what exactly? Oh yeah, always being on the top and not having to deal with common problems which somehow they can't even figure out, that it's their own fault to begin with.
Developers like Kamiya are out there, shouting at fans and interactig the exact way they feel like. The difference? They're mostly white men, and that makes it just a joke, a charismatic behaviour and just their personal views which they are "allowed"/free to express, for the sake of freedom of speech, they say, when it suits better for them, obviously.
I can't not express how disgusted i am with the fragility of the community behind this, the insecurity taking over everytime and creating basically witch hunts because people like Price are standing up for themselves and discussing well known issues with their honest viewpoint, which is ironically the most precious ideal within the kind of group attacking her.
Developers are humans, she deserves her own personal space and we need to stop pretending this woman crossed such a sacred line.
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