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FantaSoda

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,992
I believe that people have a lot of pent-up frustration at Bethesda for a lot of unrelated reasons and the technical issues just give them an easy route to blast them. Anyone who has ever built a mod for Bethesda RPGs can attest how different the guts of the games are from release to release (even if the tools look similar). I wish the audience would blast them for the things that they are actually upset about.
 

Darth Vapor

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
700
Death Star
Idk. When literally everything about the execution of game is flawed, from the physics to the animations, from the quest logic to the AI, from the models to the textures, from the movement to the combat, from random bugs to performance issues, and it is flawed in the exact same way every other game that uses the engine is flawed, I'm just going to save everyone some time and say,

The engine is flawed.
 

Malkier

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,911
The issue is that people's complaints are basically making the pitchforks turn to the wrong problem. if you want to blame the jank of the games, blame bethesda directly and their investment into making it significantly better, not the engine that they decide to use. People automatically hear new engine and think everything is overhauled when its not exactly the case. It depends on the effort the dev puts in.
And if people blamed Bethesda directly they would be called "arm chair devs" calling real developers "lazy". Saying it's the engine is a little more direct to the problem. Where we can go ok what part of the engine is the problem and can anything be done about it. I don't have a horse in this race, just seems like talking about games get spun in so many different negative ways that actually talking about anything with substance never happens because it's all a soap opera now.
 

DanteMenethil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,052
The proof is in the pudding in my opinion. Personally I was very very surprised that Fallout 4 still used completely separate interior cells for interiors in 2015, complete with shut doors and opaque windows. For comparison Witcher 3 came out that same year. Fallout 4 felt very antiqued to me in the management of the open world's technical limitations by the game engine.
 

NaDannMaGoGo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,963
Well, shouldn't Bethesda be happy about the engine getting the blame first and foremost? The alternative is blaming the management and developers. I've actually read an /r/games thread about Fallout76 where someone commented on precisely that. That a substantial part of the issue might be with some of the senior software developers at Bethesda.

But I can already see the game magazines and Era outrage that would occur if people start taking that angle, perhaps even addressing specific developers. Just letting their audience blame the 'engine' for the plentiful issues that do exist, could actually be regarded as a blessing.
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
What's hilarious is that once you remove the 'engine' from the equation, the reasons left for Bethesda's shitty broken games are incompetence and/or greed.

I don't think those are more easily defendable.
 

Aztechnology

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
14,131
I encourage everyone to play around and make a basic game in Unity or UE or something from a guide or tutorial. Just to understand how an engine works.
 

pj-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,659
It's going to be ridiculous if their games coming out in 2020+ still have a load screen between interiors and exteriors
 

ShinySunny

Banned
Dec 15, 2017
1,730
I still don't understand how Bethesda is still using bad assets for their graphic.
Like no matter what new engine that they will create, the art and textures are ugly af and we need multiple and multiple community mods to fix their ugliness.

It is like you are playing a generation game behind everyone else.
You play TW3, then you play FO4 side by side. One looks next gen, the other is like PS3 era.
You are currently playing FO 76 then you just heard that a 5yrs old game Black Desert Online just got a remastered for PC and XB1, and then you glance back at FO 76 ugly "next-gen 2018" graphic and realizing that you are looking at 2013 PS3 era game.
Heck, 76 can't even handle 10 mobs on the screen while BDO you can pull 20-30 mobs with AOE spells going off like crazy with ease.

Besides all the bugs, Bethesda can't create good looking stuff at all without hundred of modders saving their ass.
 

sibarraz

Prophet of Regret - One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
18,092
I hope than that "Game Engine is not a piece of tech" becomes a copy pasta
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
I still don't understand how Bethesda is still using bad assets for their graphic.
Like no matter what new engine that they will create, the art and textures are ugly af and we need multiple and multiple community mods to fix their ugliness.

It is like you are playing a generation behind everyone else.
You play TW3, then you play FO4 side by side. One looks next gen, the other is like PS3 era.
You are currently playing FO 76 then you just heard that a 5yrs old game Black Desert Online just got a remastered for PC and XB1, and then you glance back at FO 76 ugly "next-gen 2018" graphic and realizing that you are looking at 2013 PS3 era game.

Besides all the bugs, Bethesda can't create good looking stuff at all without hundred of modders saving their ass.

Yeah but brooms and cheese wheels.





I don't get it either.
 

Popetita

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,957
TX|PR
What are you even going on about? The problem isn't lack of people or lack of some special "secret modder" knowledge, they simply lack good decision making. They don't need a modder to come in and show them how to get proper widescreen support or whatever, they know -- or can hopefully figure out -- how to do it.

They just refuse to, presumably because the market pressure isn't there to get even something trivial fixed, much less larger issues.
No they don't. It is not lack of good decision, it is not a refusal to do it. It is making a development choice. It might not be the best one but it works.

You can criticize it but at the end of the day they are not lazy or bad they just made a choice.

They don't need to figure out how to do the stuff modder want because they have a process and it seems to have worked for them. What I am saying is the people that complain this much and say modders have done a better job should have those modders apply to see what happens.

I've been in my profession for 15 years. I understand cutting corners when you have to but due to the fact people's lives depend on my code and products being right the first time because thats all you have, perhaps my point of view is a bit skewed.

Maybe that is my problem, I expect everyone to have the same quality standards I do and I get frustrated when things I pay for don't.

Well we will agree to disagree on this one. Take care.
Hey I've worked supporting software in the healthcare industry and I've seen some shit.

If it happens there and stuff still works I don't see why people see it.

And I get the quality standards. I have them myself and it makes me mad sometimes but unless you are leading the project there are certains choices that will be made for you and you have to follow even if disagree with. It has been like that at the jobs I've had. Frustration is a very big part of the software industry that I think some people posting really dont get.

I think my issue is that people are exagersting and making it seems like the games does not work at all and that is not true.

So stick with what's comfortable because it sells instead of trying to improve. Got it.

In the end it's a product which they are trying to sell. If they can still sell an amount they want with the same amount of effort whatever. Just means I sadly will not buy any more of their games.
Yes! At the end of the day it is also a business and if it works. If people buy the game. If it is not really broken then why fix it?

You don't need to buy the game. Your criticism is valid for sure. I think you got the point I was trying ti make.
 
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lorddarkflare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,247
Are you going to pretend people never said these things and this is why poor bethesda just can't seem to fix their problems?

In fact people complained about their games being ugly and buggy way before they complained about the engine. The complaints about engine came after their next games remained buggy and ugly - thus people wrongly assumed it was the engines fault

The fact that the same type of issues and bugs would show up cross generation is why people started to think the issue was the 'engine'.

I agree with StuBurns here: it is fine to say that people should update their vocabulary--and the author does a great service by bringing it up--but the essence of the complaints are entirely valid.
 

peppersky

Banned
Mar 9, 2018
1,174
I honestly wonder if any of you actually read the article, which is very clearly written in response to today's stories about how Bethesda is using the same engine for Starfield and TESVI, stories that are misleading and misguided.

I didn't mean any disrespect and I do apologize for my accusations, as they were definitely misguided.

But the fact is, that those stories aren't "today's stories". Bethesda's engine has been a point of discussion since almost a decade now, as seen in this interview. Bethesda themselves have also definitely noticed, like in this tweet when they claimed that Skyrim was running on a new engine, which fans were quite excited about. I even found an interview from 2004, in which the topic of engines also came up in relations to Morrowind, although that was even 2 years before oblivion, so it's not particularly relevant, but certainly still kinda interesting.
I can't think of a single company who has gotten the same complaint, no matter how misguided as it is, for as long as Bethesda has been getting complaints about their engine. It's also obviously not just the fact that they are still running an iteration of the same engine with a lot of the same problems, or simply the fact that their games feel dated that makes people so adamant about them using a new engine. I know that I personally wouldn't mind their games still looking like Skyrim if they actually improved in other ways that I personally care about.

There's obviously much more there to look at than just people repeating "new engine" over and over, and I think your article would be much more interesting if it actually looked at that, instead of just arguing over words and trying to correct who you called "Internet Provocateurs". Or if you wanted to only write about the engine I think it would have been great to see some voices from the modding community, I'm sure they have a lot of interesting and technical things to talk about when it comes to Bethesda's engine, and that would be an article I would absolutely love to read. Just recently one of the lead devs on the giant Skyblivion modding project has talked about hoping that Bethesda would use a new engine for Elder Scrolls 6.

And it's also certainly not just random nerds who don't know anything about game development who are complaining about Bethesda's continuing use of their creation engine, as for example Alex Navarro talked about it on the Giant Bombcast 3 years ago.
 

Patrick Klepek

Editor at Remap, Crossplay
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
669
Near Chicago
I think people are swapping "engine" for "technology" without understanding the implications—the point of Jason's piece—but saying the tech driving their games seems to regularly undermine them, and has somehow become a meme that Bethesda itself jokes about, is spot on.
 

Orb

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,465
USA
This is funny because, very obviously, Jason Schreier doesn't know what he's talking about and he's way too dumb to realize it.

A "game engine", as used in discussions in forums and articles, IS NOT A PIECE OF TECH. Nor it is a "collection", as he says.

A game engine is an heuristic. It's a term in language that works like an umbrella and that encompasses the overall "look and feel" of playing a game. *Playing* it, not building it.
I know you're banned, but I just have to say that I've been following games for as long as I can remember and I can't recall ever seeing the term "game engine" be used in the way you're talking about. This is just... bizarre.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
I think people are swapping "engine" for "technology" without understanding the implications—the point of Jason's piece—but saying the tech driving their games seems to regularly undermine them, and has somehow become a meme that Bethesda itself jokes about, is spot on.
Except that self aware jokes are a luxury that you can only afford to indulge in to once you've addressed the real underlying criticisms leveraged against you.

And here the recent release of Fallout 76 and how apparently everything is still very much feeling like those issues haven't been addressed just contributes to the audience (and therefore customers base ) feeling like they legit don't care.
 

MistaTwo

SNK Gaming Division Studio 1
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
2,456
I don't really understand the point of the article to be honest.
Yes, game engine is a laymen's term for a whole set of tools and such that make up a development environment,
but even engineers in the industry will use the term wholesale in my experience. It's just short-hand for an entire selection of tools used in development.

The fact remains that a lot of the issues that persist in Bethesda games seem to always rear their ugly head no matter what generation or iteration of the development tools we are looking at.

No engine or development environment is going to be perfect, but there are plenty of examples where a change to the base engine alone can create a stark improvement.
You can look at the reactions to our own KOF XIV compared to the new Samurai Shodown teaser. These games are created by the exact same programmers, artists, art directors, producers, designers, etc. and the biggest difference is that we changed from a proprietary engine (which I assume had built up over the years to be a Frankenstein beast probably just like Bethesda's own engine) to Unreal Engine 4. Obviously, there is a lot at play in the background and even UE4 presents its own unique challenges but talking about a 'game engine' isn't so much a misnomer as it is shorthand for a whole slew of things that even most developers don't understand.

Also feels a bit weird as I am like 99% sure that Jason has criticized Bungie in the past for their engine holding the game back, which was probably true and based on insider sources. Seems like a similar situation to me, but maybe I am remembering wrong?
 

Kaelan

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,641
Maryland
The article completely misses the point of the complaints.

It's entirely focused on people misusing the term engine, okay, fine. People don't know exactly what they're critical of, but they're still being critical for a reason, and a technological one.

This seems like the most pointless semantics debate to completely sidestep the actual issue people have.

The point of the article isn't to address the complaints. It's to address people who are ignorant and don't understand saying "the engine is shitty" doesn't really focus on the true issues
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
The point of the article isn't to address the complaints. It's to address people who are ignorant and don't understand saying "the engine is shitty" doesn't really focus on the true issues
The 'people' are told by Bethesda themselves that it's an engine. Specifically the Creation Engine. And now they're pivoting to completely sidestep the issue, and this article is playing directly into that PR narrative.

This is a dramatic recreation of what happened:
'Our engine is the Creation Engine, isn't it dope?'
'Ummm, not totally no. It runs like ass.'
'Fuck you, it's not an engine you ignorant fuck.'
 

MassiveNights

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,434
This is a lot of controversy for some dude who wanted to admonish some Forbes writer for a headline that barely misinterprets people's issues with Bethesda and their lack of flexibility and innovation, both in the past and moving on to future titles.

I found the writing arrogant and presumptive rather than educational.

Send the guy a DM next time and save us the bother.
 

Kin5290

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,390
I feel like what people are Being Mad Online about (that Bethesda has a poor track record with making games that function smoothly and look good) and the purpose of this article (that people are clickbaiting that TES6 and Starfield will suck because "They use the same engine!!!!") are two very different things.

The proof is in the pudding in my opinion. Personally I was very very surprised that Fallout 4 still used completely separate interior cells for interiors in 2015, complete with shut doors and opaque windows. For comparison Witcher 3 came out that same year. Fallout 4 felt very antiqued to me in the management of the open world's technical limitations by the game engine.
Fallout 4 allows you to track, manipulate, and loot dozens of objects within an interior environment at any given time, not to mention create new objects (by, say, shooting a raider into bloody bits) and manipulating them. The Witcher 3 does not allow you to do any of that. This is apples and oranges. (Don't get me wrong, I thought Fallout 4 was ass, I just don't think that's a very good comparison.)
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,265
What do you want titles for these topics to be exactly?

'Bethesda Game Studios next-gen RPGs to use some of the same technology as has plagued their games for the last decade +, maybe that's a problem, we don't know.'

Something like that?

"Bethesda's Games Shouldn't Be This Buggy"

Wow, so hard. Really needed to go to Harvard Law to think up words like that.
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
"Bethesda's Games Shouldn't Be This Buggy"

Wow, so hard. Really needed to go to Harvard Law to think up words like that.
Bugs don't even begin to scratch the surface of the technical complaints.

That also makes zero sense. The news was that the Creation Engine will be used for their two upcoming games.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,265
Bugs don't even begin to scratch the surface of the technical complaints.

That also makes zero sense. The news was that the Creation Engine will be used for their two upcoming games.

Which isn't news. That's the point.

People complaining about the engine are just going to be disappointed when Bethesda switches engines (or renames it again) and they see the same problems. It's not the engine that keeps 7-year-old bugs in Skyrim ports.

But by all means, continue. Just don't expect folks to be surprised in a few years if the same issues are present with a different engine.
 

Fallout-NL

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,694
don't really understand the point of the article to be honest.
Yes, game engine is a laymen's term for a whole set of tools and such that make up a development environment,
but even engineers in the industry will use the term wholesale in my experience. It's just short-hand for an entire selection of tools used in development.

Exactly. Who cares if the term isn't entirely accurate.

As if, AS IF the good and infallible folks at Bethesda would not be smart or able enough to interpret the complaints leveled against their shoddy products because of this.
 

Otheradam

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,221
It's my understanding that Bethesda has been using this "engine" or set of tools since Oblivion and has for some reason refused to create something new from scratch since. All their games have moved and played pretty much the same since then with the same type of bugs and ugly faces. Them renaming the set of tools to "Creation Engine" with Skyrim didn't change the fact that the base code was obviously the same (they added 3rd person which played/moved like crap YAY). It's getting really obvious they have pushed these tools to their limits with Fallout 76, or stupidity in trying to tack on multi-player into this engine. I hope this game bombs and forces them actually create a set of modern tools but if that were to happen we probably won't see their next game for another 10 years.
 

Bricktop

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,847
I think you're overestimating the customer base that cares, it has gotten to this point precisely because they don't care.

If people really cared they'd stop buying thier games. The fact that every TES and Fallout game they put out sells like hotcakes makes me think that, for as vocal as people are about Bethesda's "shitty, buggy" games, those people are a drop in the bucket compared to people who buy and enjoy them.

Even if FO76 flops, which it won't, the next ES will sell ridiculous amounts and probably get ported as many times as Skyrim. For as much as I'd love for Bethesda to improve their games in certain aspects, history has repeatedly shown that they don't have to in order to be successful.
 

Gentlemen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,502
It's my understanding that Bethesda has been using this "engine" or set of tools since Oblivion and has for some reason refused to create something new from scratch since.
You honestly think a development house is using the same software to make games they were using in 2006.
Or that they haven't upgraded and iterated on their production pipeline in the intervening 12 years, and that the code has 'obviously' not changed because of some jank in an open world MMORPG.
You take this as evidence that people aren't working around the clock as we speak to ship the game in as complete a state as possible (the deleterious effects of crunching notwithstanding), insisting that features are 'tacked on' as if it were an enterprise held back by their tools.
And finally you wish them financial ruin, as if somehow that will make them modernize their toolkit and make games you feel like buying in 2028.

This is what you believe and say out loud like it's meant to be taken seriously.

This is what gamers think engines are.

And Jason Schreier is trying to teach you otherwise and you got your ears plugged so hard it's penetrated the gray matter.
 

Cabbagehead

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,019
Given how bad Fallout 76 and Fallout 4 has looked. It's no wonder the reaction, when the pudding is clear as day. Along with the many, many, many technical issues and almost systemic reduction in game-play depth in regards to mechanics and choices. Most likely getting the axed due to the engine itself, fighting with the developers or vice versa. Though at the same time, if the same issues continued to show itself in a theoretical new engine or refactored engine. Then you know it's a two factor issue and folks need to be retrained or let go accordingly.

Because the bottom line is that Bethesda is putting out games that look and play like amateur hour compared to the competition aside Guerrilla Games, CDPR, Rock Star...etc. It's an eye sore to continue to see the tool-set or engine issues still present. After years in development, to the point. That you need ten to twenty gigabyte patches and even then many of the problems persist.

Which usually means that it's so foundational that even different branches of the engine, continue the legacy.
 

Uthred

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,567
I'm glad Jason wrote that article, although judging by the responses in here, it's falling on deaf ears. Yeah, maybe it's semantics, but if you're going to complain about something, at least complain about the right thing. It's more productive to say "this game is ludicrously buggy" or "this game doesn't look good" rather than "this game's engine sucks." If you're not someone who is actively using the engine, you don't know that.

It's pointless semantics. Which honestly I love. But lets not pretend saying "This game is buggy" is any more productive than saying "The engine in Fallout76" is buggy. Neither is productive because Bethesda clearly do not give a fuck. Also, in the interest of semantics which as we all know are the most important thing ever, how on earth is someone playing a game running on a particular engine not using the engine?

I see it as another way gamers try to dictate the product instead of being a consumer. Sure it is newsworthy but I don't see why it should be valid when the developers did their job to the best of their ability and delivered a game we like.

I have to be reading this wrong. It's "entitled" to criticise a game dev because "they did their job to the best of their ability"? That can't possibly be what you're saying, right?
 
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OldMuffin

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,179
Wouldn't it be fair to say that the basis of the engine was broken from the get go and so the "buggy" nature of it can't be fixed unless they start over from scratch essentially? That's why I think not many people had issues with stuff like titanfall 2, since the base source engine wasn't exactly "broken", so adding new bells and whistles to it didn't cause as many issues as it does with Bethesda's engine. If anyone could explain to me if this is or isn't the case, I would greatly appreciate it!
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
Do you have a source for this, because I really think this list gets at the heart of the "engine" issue here.

People quoting that post, sound like someone opening a radio for the very first time as beginning electrical engineers and being like "well here's all the problems, it's all these WIRES in here fucking things up!"

That list is just a list of very rote features and system patterns that virtually every game uses. Like their complaints about the entity component system are precisely the point of ECS. ECS is modular programming, that's literally the strength of ECS. The entire point of an ECS is that entities are literally container pawns that don't contain any actual "programming," but instead are merely individual instances of larger systems that tick each entity separately. The name itself even explains how it works -- an ENTITY COMPONENT system.

Like, let's take a second and design an entity component system entity class for a second, literally see how it's done:

Code:
class Entity_Interface
{
   int EntityID;

   public:
       Entity_Interface();
       virtual ~Entity_Interface();

       virtual const int GetEntityTypeID() const = 0;

       inline const int GetEntityID() const { return this->EntityID; }
};

template<class T>
class Entity : public Entity_Interface
{
   void operator delete(void*) = delete;
   void operator delete[](void*) = delete;
public:

   static const int STATIC_ENTITY_TYPE_ID;
   Entity() {}
   virtual ~Entity() {}

   virtual const int GetStaticEntityTypeID() const override { return STATIC_ENTITY_TYPE_ID; }
};

Like, that's seriously all there is to an entity. An entity, in an ECS system, is literally just a container wrapper. It's a super abstract concept, that merely registers that an instance (or entity) of a more complex system, determined by a mere identification type, has been created. Entities, in an ECS, are merely tiny allocations in a memory pool, that get parsed by a larger system that iterates through the pool. Entities literally shouldn't contain "programming," that's what their SYSTEM is for.

Or the bit about meta data -- the author sounds like he wants to definitively claim an observer pattern is inherently superior to polling, except one cannot make this claim in isolation without being able to examine the underlaying architecture of the engine, what polling vs observing means in practical terms. There are, believe it or not, actual reasons one would choose to use a polling pattern over the observer pattern, depending on the behavior needed. Their complaints about cells is literally just vector quantization, one of the most classical compression schemes around. Of course they have limits, everything in computer programming has limits. Actually, switching to a model "without limits" is way, way more janky.

Read this book:

http://gameprogrammingpatterns.com/

All the shocking "issues" in that post are literally just the general nuts and bolts of game design.
 
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Valdega

Banned
Sep 7, 2018
1,609
Idk. When literally everything about the execution of game is flawed, from the physics to the animations, from the quest logic to the AI, from the models to the textures, from the movement to the combat, from random bugs to performance issues, and it is flawed in the exact same way every other game that uses the engine is flawed, I'm just going to save everyone some time and say,

The engine is flawed.

You're making some objectively false statements there. There are a lot of games that use Gamebryo and don't share the issues of Bethesda's games. For example, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex: First Assault Online has an uncapped framerate, variable FOV support and V-Sync toggling. Bethesda's apparent inability to support these things is not an issue inherent to the engine.

This reminds me of people blaming Unity whenever a Unity game has crappy graphics or performance.
 
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Rat King

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,021
Portugal
To me the real controversy is that Bethesda games still run like hot garbage after all these years. Jank and bugs are a staple at this point.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,953
Houston
Idk. When literally everything about the execution of game is flawed, from the physics to the animations, from the quest logic to the AI, from the models to the textures, from the movement to the combat, from random bugs to performance issues, and it is flawed in the exact same way every other game that uses the engine is flawed, I'm just going to save everyone some time and say,

The engine is flawed.
Sometimes you can't trust mods even when they come from officals
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,151
United Kingdom
But they're not meaningless at all.

It doesn't matter what people call the problem. The constant performance issues are almost certainly related to memory management from tracking objects and objectives over time, and how that data is retained and loaded, but that's irrelevant. The complaints stem from a technological issue, and one that they have had for many years, and show no sign of addressing in the future.

They even claimed Skyrim was a 'new engine', they gave it a new name and everything, and it wasn't anything of the sort, and still had exactly the same issue FO3 and Oblivion had before it.

Of course the next-gen games will have a new renderer, and a whole host of new engines, physics, lighting, animation, and addressing the presentation shortcomings is fine, but it's not going to address the fundamental performance issue their games suffer from, so dismissing the headlines seems semantic at best. They can't say exactly what the issue is, and even if they could, there might not even be a term of art for it. No one cares what they call them. No one is saying RDR2 would be prettier if it didn't share its engine name with a table tennis game from more than a decade ago, no one cares.

Just because people don't possess the language to express their complaints, doesn't mean their voices should be dismissed, and it doesn't mean it's not news worthy.

Agreed.

While informative, Jason's article is essentially an exercise in arguing semantics.

When a developer's string of games made on different "engines" all contain similar or the exact same bugs that are detrimental to the player experience, they should rightly be called out for it.

Focusing on the language used to frame the complaint instead of the complaint itself just seems dismissive.
 

gogosox82

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,385
I thought it was pretty clear that when most people talk about Besthesda's "engine", they are talking about the bugs, glitches, animation quality, etc that is present in every Bethesda since Morrowind.
 

@dedmunk

Banned
Oct 11, 2018
3,088
I mean, the engine is the backbone of their games, entry to entry. Yes it can evolve over time and change drastically from one game to another, however the problem is that it isn't. The engine could be made to work flawlessly but obviously that would take an inconceivable amount of time (money) and it's never going to happen.

Maybe not everyone who criticizes the engine is right, but not everyone is wrong either.
 

Mistouze

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,430
Yeah, most gamers shouldn't talk too much about the technical stuff going on in games. At least not as if they know what they are talking about like they do most of the time.

BUT the industry loves selling technical lingo to their customers as an argument that one company does stuff better than the other AND Bethesda's games have a level of recognizable jank going on in their games since Morrowind.
 

Ωλ7XL9

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,250
Though Bethesda's open world games have great systems, I've found their visuals to be thoroughly off-putting!
 

eddy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,738
Fallout 4 allows you to track, manipulate, and loot dozens of objects within an interior environment at any given time, not to mention create new objects (by, say, shooting a raider into bloody bits) and manipulating them.

This excuse for having load-into interiors is incredibly lame. You can actually have "both things", we have the [spatial] technology. One day someone, maybe even Bethesda, is going to allow you to watch your giant stack of cheese wheels from inside a building you seamlessly 'streamed' into. That it hasn't been done (?!) doesn't mean it can't, that's not how this works.
 

BrassDragon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,154
The Netherlands
Another interesting article by Mr. Schreier. Being a fan of videogames is weird because unlike, say, movies we have very little insight into how the sausage is made... The industry loves being a complete black box and only lets us read the labels on the outside when it's time to hype.

I'm reminded of the discussion around Frostbite being problematic for BioWare as an RPG engine. The heart of the problem was not the engine but the lack of familiarity, new tooling and pipeline issues.

Still, it's easier to blame tech rather than people/project management when you have no clue how production works.