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The Division 2 Title Update 3: Operation Dark Hours - Patch Notes

Should they add matchmaking for the Raid?


  • Total voters
    242
  • This poll will close: .
Oct 30, 2017
522
As I said with Destiny, Final Fantasy XIV manages just fine with match made raids.

Destiny raids vs FFXIV are complete different, is someone doesn't have mic or does not know how posicionate on certain chambers, good luck trying to complete The Last Wish, King's Fall or Wrath of the Machine (at least on the first months).
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,006
So much truth here.

Players advocating for a MM alternative aren't asshole, "gatekeeping" or "elitists".

There's absolutely no need for such a defensive stance. The raid will release a d those that are serious about it will find a group.

There's no gatekeeping but you have to be serious about the game to find a group. Dude, that IS gatekeeping. "If you aren't X enough you don't even get to try" is the definition of gatekeeping.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,749
Destiny raids vs FFXIV are complete different, is someone doesn't have mic or does not know how posicionate on certain chambers, good luck trying to complete The Last Wish, King's Fall or Wrath of the Machine (at least on the first months).

I don't know what WoW or FF raids are like. They could very well be harder than destiny raids.

But there is a difference between "This raid is hard" and "this raid requires communication to beat"

I mean certain encounters in a Destiny raid cannot be completed unless people know what their role is in that raid. Are you a runner. Are you handling this boss or this boss?

There are certain tasks where Player A needs to relay to player B where and when to do a certain action. You legitimately need a mic for certain encounters. Its not hard. You just need to communicate.
 
OP
OP
Remark
Oct 27, 2017
890
I don't know what WoW or FF raids are like. They could very well be harder than destiny raids.

But there is a difference between "This raid is hard" and "this raid requires communication to beat"

I mean certain encounters in a Destiny raid cannot be completed unless people know what their role is in that raid. Are you a runner. Are you handling this boss or this boss?

There are certain tasks where Player A needs to relay to player B where and when to do a certain action. You legitimately need a mic for certain encounters. Its not hard. You just need to communicate.
In Last Wish your not getting past Shuro Chi without communication straight up.

If Div 2 Raid is anything like Destiny Raids yo I understand why they don't wanna have standard matchmaking in the game. Now I do believe like a month after launch they should just throw it in there but they should make it more specialized for the raid whether it be filters or just straight up in-game LFG.

Also, I don't agree with people saying they need to add an easier version of the Raid, legit the dumbest shit I heard all day bro like wtf.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,946
Germany
There's no gatekeeping but you have to be serious about the game to find a group. Dude, that IS gatekeeping. "If you aren't X enough you don't even get to try" is the definition of gatekeeping.
i don't think anyone WANTS to gatekeep. it'd be great if everyone who wants to do the raid can just do it.
it just really don't change the fact that tomorrow, people who want to do the raid will be doing the raid. and people who want to do it won't be doing it.
it's just like....yeah, that's the situation
 
OP
OP
Remark
Oct 27, 2017
890
Added a poll since I'm kind of curious to see the overall opinion on ERA.

Currently right I'm leaning to at a later date after the Raid has been released but curious to see other people's thoughts.
 
Oct 30, 2017
5,663
There's no gatekeeping but you have to be serious about the game to find a group. Dude, that IS gatekeeping. "If you aren't X enough you don't even get to try" is the definition of gatekeeping.
Thats a fast and loose definition, needing to put together a dedicated team is not gatekeeping and stop being silly.

THe Last Wish raid first completion in Destiny took 23 hours to complete. Its absurd to think Xx_Snowflakesmaher85_xX and his idiot friend Steve you randomly matched with are going to stick it out with you when the going gets tough? Heck, I've been through lfgs here on this very site who threw in the towel after 5 hours due to people unable to complete simple tasks and jumps.

Imagine the immense frustration of coordinating with 7 other matchmade randoms.
 
Oct 31, 2017
3,940
I would definitely prefer it if there was matchmaking, but I guess we'll have to see how feasible it would've been to add.

There's no gatekeeping but you have to be serious about the game to find a group. Dude, that IS gatekeeping. "If you aren't X enough you don't even get to try" is the definition of gatekeeping.
I suppose you could argue that, but this particular form of "gatekeeping" is apparently inherent to the design of the raid. The difficulty is coming up with a UI to accommodate for it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,770
US, California
To be fair...

Are you really playing the raid if you are relying on matchmaking? I mean you will get to see the intro, shoot some guys maybe. But you're not getting any boss drops. At least not consistently.


Oh man it is night and day.

I tried matchmaking for a relativly simplistic game like Sea of Thieves when it came out and for Arena. Nightmare 100% of the time.

No issues wth LFG. Just knowing someone can talk and is on the same page as you is huge. Thats what people aren't getting.

Matchmaking process goes as follows.
"I want to play raid"
*hit matchmaking*
**Agents found, you are joining a group**
Intro Cutscene Plays, you load into the airport.
"Everyone got a mic"
"I do"
"Yeah whats up"
*player 3 does jumping jacks*
*player 4 just rushes straight in*
"So only 3 people got mics? I'm out, gonna try for a better group"
**An agent has left your squad**

LFG Process goes
"I want to play a raid"
Check LFG site.
-Looking for 2 more for full raid completion. Must have mics.-
Hit I'm interested
Get invited to the pre game lobby.
"everyone ready to go?"
8 players say yes.
"alright lets go"
Yeah LFG is rarely if ever that simple. Was nowhere that easy early on with Destiny, which so many seem intent on comparing to.
 
Oct 25, 2017
697
I mean, if the raid is balanced in a way where it's an activity that can't be completed with matchmaking, then I don't know, just mayyybe they shouldn't have designed it in that way in the game they were selling as all activities having matchmaking in the first place. If it truly truly is this impossible thing (which I guess we'll see soon)

Or alternatively, they could have designed it that way and said hey, this raid is coming later but it won't have matchmaking, or we don't know if it'll have matchmaking, or LFG or whatever.

Either's fine.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,602
No matchmaking is fine, but not if you have to find 7 fucking people. It's exausting enough in Destiny with 6, where after 10 minutes someone has to go, someone's kid is crying, someone wants to poop and disappears for 15 minutes, someone is always dying first etc.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,567
I mean if the devs have stated that internal testing showed that the raid doesn't quite work with random MM, what are we supposed to take away from that? Do we accuse them of lying? Are we going to trot out the "lazy devs" arguments?

They would obviously want as many people playing their game as possible, so this decision doesn't strike me as nefarious in nature.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,749
Honestly, just thinking about how Division already handles MM. They can definitely more or less just "turn it on"

You go to the helicopter. Say matchmaking. And it will put you in a group with a designated leader. Up to that leader to start the game. It basically lets you roll the dice with the other players but at least you can all verify pre-game and ready up before launching into the activity.

I just don't know how to reconcile that with joining mid progress.
 
Oct 25, 2017
573
Yes I'm OK if it's easy. I want to see the area I want to see the bosses. I want to get the story. I don't want to spend a weekend bashing my head in the ground with 8 people.

This is what I don't understand. An easier matchmaking raid with worse rewards means that the real raid is still there for people who want it. All you hardcore dudes would still have your fun. And the rest of us would have ours.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,197
Do you play on Xbox? The built in LFG system for Xbox it well used by the community, and with a popular game like Division 2, you should have issues finding LGF requests for groups looking to pick up another player, especially on typical raid days like reset day and fri/sat.
Im on PC. I mean ill give LFG a shot I am just skeptical. I tried it for Destiny 2 and it never worked out for me, as a result I never managed to do the raid
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,687
Yes I'm OK if it's easy. I want to see the area I want to see the bosses. I want to get the story. I don't want to spend a weekend bashing my head in the ground with 8 people.

This is what I don't understand. An easier matchmaking raid with worse rewards means that the real raid is still there for people who want it. All you hardcore dudes would still have your fun. And the rest of us would have ours.
So you just want another environment to kind of mindlessly shoot through?

That's not what the raid is for, raids are always about co-ordination. I doubt it will be a matter of just "making it easier" if it has mechanics where people need to co-ordinate positions and call out signs etc...

We know next to nothing about the complexities of the mechanics though, so who knows at this point.
 
I mean if the devs have stated that internal testing showed that the raid doesn't quite work with random MM, what are we supposed to take away from that? Do we accuse them of lying? Are we going to trot out the "lazy devs" arguments?

They would obviously want as many people playing their game as possible, so this decision doesn't strike me as nefarious in nature.
Every developer tries to make a balanced game out of the gate but inevitably fail. Internal testing is hardly perfect. Besides that's only part of it. Imagine if "teamwork" is required because of some Destiny style symbol bullshit. Technically they would be right to remove matchmaking. But the question would then be, 'why the fuck did you insert random symbol bullshit?'
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,687
Every developer tries to make a balanced game out of the gate but inevitably fail. Internal testing is hardly perfect. Besides that's only part of it. Imagine if "teamwork" is required because of some Destiny style symbol bullshit. Technically they would be right to remove matchmaking. But the question would then be, 'why the fuck did you insert random symbol bullshit?'
Random symbol bullshit is not the only reason that mics/team comms are required.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,687
It's just an example from Destiny. Not a commentary on Destiny raids as a whole.
They never said it was the only reason. Geez, stop being so argumentative.
There are lots of reasons comms might be required and Destiny itself has many more than just "symbol bullshit", so to be that reductive and specific is pointless.

It's not argumentative to point that out. Don't try to frame it like it is.
 
Added a poll since I'm kind of curious to see the overall opinion on ERA.

Currently right I'm leaning to at a later date after the Raid has been released but curious to see other people's thoughts.
I will not cast my vote until we know what the raid will be like,how long will it take to finish etc etc...if it's relatively simple ''puzzles'' like the 3 Rocket Launchers in Tidal Basin then matchmaking could work...people will die a lot at first,not knowing what to do but Tidal is doable without mics to coordinate...if its more then that though,8 players with a system and mics will be needed I guess...
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,408
Yes I'm OK if it's easy. I want to see the area I want to see the bosses. I want to get the story. I don't want to spend a weekend bashing my head in the ground with 8 people.

This is what I don't understand. An easier matchmaking raid with worse rewards means that the real raid is still there for people who want it. All you hardcore dudes would still have your fun. And the rest of us would have ours.
"YEAH but why don't you just go to a website that someone who doesn't work for the company had to set up to actually play the raid tho?!?"

Yes, I also want to at least experience the raid on easy, it's what the fucking game already teaches you do to for 99.9% of the missions and strongholds that you play throughout the game. It starts the missions on "story" difficulty and then it lets you play through them at whatever difficulty you want once you've done it at least one time.

It's also not surprising to see these same tired Destiny excuses pop up again. I've played strongholds and missions in this game on challenging and have been able to survive by listening to people with mics or using the chat function. There's also been times when we've been wiped out by the same bullshit for four times and people just decide to leave and hey guess what? That's the risk I take by playing shit on challenging.

The idea that players should be kept out of the raid because randoms "can't complete it" is stupid, especially since there are plenty of other activities in this game that also require a fuck ton of risk taking but there's no devs out here saying, "well we wanted to stop people from doing the bounties on higher difficulties without a group because they might waste their time if they die."
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,804
Australia
How do you know how much I played the game?

I bought it because of the promise of MM for every activity. Now they are backpedaling and I'm the one overreacting. Ok.
Yeah, it is an overreaction because you've most definitely played enough to care about raid matchmaking so the want for a refund is simply a knee-jerk negative reaction. Rather than exclaim you deserve a refund after playing enough to come to the conclusion that you no longer are enjoying the game due to no matchmaking for the raid you could have just said "well I guess I won't be able to gain the enjoyment I believed I could access with my commitments/needs which sucks but I've gotten enough out of the game."

But at the end of the day, you do you. I can't exclaim your opinion is wrong because it isn't, just how it was worded came across as arrogant for the sake of arrogance.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,826
You think destiny raids are harder than FFXIV?
Destiny's Raids are harder than the normal mode of FFXIV's raids. 100%. Not even a question.

They made FFXIV's raids easier because Coil was too hard for PUGs to finish when they did turn on matchmaking.

Love these threads on a gaming forum where people are like "How will I ever find people to play with?". Eh just check the OT and get on discord.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,603
As I said with Destiny, Final Fantasy XIV manages just fine with match made raids.
No. An MMO raid is not the same as a raid in a shooter.
The weight each person has to carry in a 6-8 man shooter raid is far more than the weight 1 single person carries in an MMO raid. Additionally there's the shooter element that makes things complicated and a lot more "active" or " reflex based" in comparison even if the overall buff/debuff system is far more complicated in an MMO.

I'm not saying you don't have cases where the death of one person leads to the run failing in MMO raids, they do but not everyone in that group of 20+ people has roughly the same level of importance to the run. It's just a numbers game where less people in a squad a death costs a lot more.....and yes it ends up becoming easier later on when people are geared up and know the raid well but that's beside the point.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,603
Yes I'm OK if it's easy. I want to see the area I want to see the bosses. I want to get the story. I don't want to spend a weekend bashing my head in the ground with 8 people.

This is what I don't understand. An easier matchmaking raid with worse rewards means that the real raid is still there for people who want it. All you hardcore dudes would still have your fun. And the rest of us would have ours.
If the raid difficulty comes from mechanics themselves then an "easy mode" is most likely going to hurt the raid's overall design itself. It's because raids that rely on mechanics are carefully designed around those encounters and as such you'd need to have two wildly different mechanical designs of the same raid and that's not really realistic.

You see it in Destiny raids itself wherein the difference between normal and hard mode is relatively minute because once the design is set, you cannot really change it drastically and the delta between normal and hard mode ends up being quite small. So small that you still need the same kind of coordination even when playing normal mode. Now think if they were to design a normal mode that you could play without communication, how different would the normal mode in that case would have to be to enable that? And how realistic of an idea would that be for a game?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,770
US, California
The weight each person has to carry in a 6-8 man shooter raid is far more than the weight 1 single person carries in an MMO raid.
Except if that person is a healer or tank.

The thing with the Division, is that there really are no roles as of yet. As it is now, we don't have people running heals or tanking, etc because it's just not viable with the current gear makeup. I'm hoping that'll change but going into this raid everyone or easily the highest % of players will be all dps focused and no one person will be anywhere as critical as individuals in an MMO raid group - not even close.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,603
If your tank or healer sucks in a MM MMO raid, you're fucked lol. The majority of people go DPS for a reason.

It's not the same as an shooter raid.
Except if that person is a healer or tank.

The thing with the Division, is that there really are no roles as of yet. As it is now, we don't have people running heals or tanking, etc because it's just not viable with the current gear makeup. I'm hoping that'll change but going into this raid everyone or easily the highest % of players will be all dps focused and no one person will be anywhere as critical as individuals in an MMO raid group - not even close.
Are you two arguing against me or with me?

Nothing you two said disagrees with what I said in the very post you guys quoted. But at the risk of repeating the very same post. I already said that I'm not saying you dont have cases in MMO raids where one man's death cases the run to fail, because you do...that'd be the death of tank/healers. But those DPS people...you can afford to lose a 1-2 or even a couple more. In shooter raids with smaller teams, the responsibility on each person to make the run a success is higher simply because each loss is is a higher loss percentage wise (provided it's not Crota's End lol).
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,770
US, California
Are you two arguing against me or with me?

Nothing you two said disagrees with what I said in the very post you guys quoted. But at the risk of repeating the very same post. I already said that I'm not saying you dont have cases in MMO raids where one man's death cases the run to fail, because you do...that'd be the death of tank/healers. But those DPS people...you can afford to lose a couple of them. In shooter raids with smaller teams, the responsibility on each person to make the run a success is higher (provided it's not Crota's End lol).
Yeah you probably need to edit your post then. You made a blanket statement which I quoted and then later went on to clarify what you wrote saying that's not entirely the case. Kinda defeats the first sentence which is all I read when I decided to respond.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,603
Yeah you probably need to edit your post then. You made a blanket statement which I quoted and then later went on to clarify what you wrote saying that's not entirely the case. Kinda defeats the first sentence which is all I read when I decided to respond.
What? I didnt even edit my post...lol. Do you see any edit mark on my post?
What I'm talking about was in the original post, don't blame me for missing it.

EDIT: I don't even know anymore. lol
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,687
Are you two arguing against me or with me?

Nothing you two said disagrees with what I said in the very post you guys quoted. But at the risk of repeating the very same post. I already said that I'm not saying you dont have cases in MMO raids where one man's death cases the run to fail, because you do...that'd be the death of tank/healers. But those DPS people...you can afford to lose a 1-2 or even a couple more. In shooter raids with smaller teams, the responsibility on each person to make the run a success is higher simply because each loss is is a higher loss percentage wise (provided it's not Crota's End lol).
I thought it was super clear... I was a agreeing with you. Try reading it again with that in mind?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,770
US, California
What? I didnt even edit my post...lol. Do you see any edit mark on my post?
What I'm talking about was in the original post, don't blame me for missing it.
I didn't say you edited it. You said in the first paragraph that no one person is as important in an MMO raid as in a shooter and then in the 2nd paragraph you said that wasn't the case, because if a healer/tank dies then they fail. So you corrected yourself. I didn't read that part yet because I had an issue with what you first wrote and chose to respond.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,826
I didn't say you edited it. You said in the first paragraph that no one person is as important in an MMO raid as in a shooter and then in the 2nd paragraph you said that wasn't the case, because if a healer/tank dies then they fail. So you corrected yourself. I didn't read that part yet because I had an issue with what you first wrote and chose to respond.
And this highlights exactly why matchmaking is a bad idea.
 
Dec 12, 2017
1,346
And this highlights exactly why matchmaking is a bad idea.
Or you could just have a choice??

My biggest problem with this system is that once you get a squad together, after 2 or 3 failures, people start backing out. To think that manually looking for a game with strangers is different that matchmaking with strangers is lunacy.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
1,749
I vote that we turn on matchmaking for raids but before you hit the button you have to sign a legally binding document that forbids you from publically complaining about random teammates or it being too hard to get a competent team