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The Division 2 Title Update 3: Operation Dark Hours - Patch Notes

Should they add matchmaking for the Raid?


  • Total voters
    242
  • This poll will close: .
Because it an unnecessary extra step.

Why is MM with filters so hard? Its in all kind of online games, and Im not talking MMOs. I use Earth Defense Forces as an example earlier

Add a password to join group
Add a filter that you have to be at a certain level
Add a Filter that you have to have a certain specialty
Add a filter that you have had to complete the raid a certain amount of times, or put so much time in it
Add a filter that an mic must be active
etc

And if you dont want to play with randoms, dont click the matchmaking button.

Have to search offline solution to find a group is just of a "bad experience" that having a bad random on the team, either way its going to drive some people away, now even those how would have stuck around are out because who want to rally up 8 people offline, when you are ready to play "Now" with other who are ready to play "now" in game

I get the "oh blind matchmaking is bad" but do you really think this is going to bolster the numbers of offsite LFG-ers? Now the only raiders are going to be those who use offsite LFG anyways

I will probably LFG 1 or 2 times to enjoy the content, but Im not LFGing every time I want to raid, thats nonsense and they are pushing me away before a bad random even has a chance to
This x100000000
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,770
US, California
Any word on what it takes to unlock the raid? Got bored of the grind at WT2, but raiding sounds fun...
As far as I know, just to get to it, the chopper is outside the WH waiting. I believe the GS threshold was originally to be 500 but now it's 490? This could be wrong, but I think it's around there. And World 5 tier ofc unlocked with the initial set of missions done. I believe that's when the raid mission showed up, or the mention of it in-game.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,408
Because it an unnecessary extra step.

Why is MM with filters so hard? Its in all kind of online games, and Im not talking MMOs. I use Earth Defense Forces as an example earlier

Add a password to join group
Add a filter that you have to be at a certain level
Add a Filter that you have to have a certain specialty
Add a filter that you have had to complete the raid a certain amount of times, or put so much time in it
Add a filter that an mic must be active
etc

And if you dont want to play with randoms, dont click the matchmaking button.

Have to search offline solution to find a group is just of a "bad experience" that having a bad random on the team, either way its going to drive some people away, now even those how would have stuck around are out because who want to rally up 8 people offline, when you are ready to play "Now" with other who are ready to play "now" in game

I get the "oh blind matchmaking is bad" but do you really think this is going to bolster the numbers of offsite LFG-ers? Now the only raiders are going to be those who use offsite LFG anyways

I will probably LFG 1 or 2 times to enjoy the content, but Im not LFGing every time I want to raid, thats nonsense and they are pushing me away before a bad random even has a chance to
I wouldn't be surprised if part of the thought process was, "well people who like doing raids in loot shooters were completely fine with using an LFG site for Destiny (aka doing the work for Bungie) so..."
 
Is it even a guarantee that someone you find through LFG will be more competent than someone you find with matchmaking.

Is it even a guarantee that someone you find through LFG won't ragequit mid-ways during failures and such. Or disconnected. Or do stupid, dumb stuff that cost the whole team the run. Or [insert any other thing that a matchmake players are alleged will do during the raid], etc etc.

This is what I mean by why not give players more options. It's not even a guarantee that you can win or you can have a good experience with the Raid with people from LFGs.

Just make a matchmaking where mic is required for communication (with preferred language), Ghost Recond Wildlands has the options to do it, why not here?
 
May 15, 2019
6
I'm glad there are so many other matchmaking proponents out there. The only reason why I still play wow is that I can use LFG/LFR.
Unfortunately those were major factors in me eventually leaving WoW. While the more difficult options are there, it just didn't feel like something really worth the effort knowing I could see everything without any meaningful challenge. Not to mention the way balance shifted and the more isolated the community became as most didn't have a reason to use chat channels or build friends lists.

That's based on my personal experience alone though, so perhaps others see it differently.
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,804
Australia
What I don't get is the concept of matchmaking because you only have an hour or limited time to play and that being THE reason to have it. I understand the want to do content, that's fine and I agree being able to do it in different ways should be there, but if you have limited time you're actively worsening the experiencing for others if you utilise matchmaking. By not having the time to actively participate in the content to a degree, be it the first wave/boss or the tenth, you are removing yourself from the experience and completion of others who may be eager to finish the whole thing.

Again, I get the want to do content, I'm the same. I am getting myself up to max level so I can do all the end game stuff and enjoying my time doing it (albeit distracted with Rage 2), but I know that come the raid I wouldn't use matchmaking as the system to me is faulty from the beginning. I do agree both systems should be there, and those who do want to use it can, but my opinon off the system is that it is flawed. This is because it allows situations like limited-time players jumping in and out which is an interruption in the raid which no doubt takes some significant time to do and breaks up the flow of other players causing them to now have to wait for another person to matchmake and hope they are competent/have the right communications/want to even do it in the first place properly.

For me matchmaking has always been a very unfullfilling system whereas old fashioned grouping of players, be it PUG in game or through forums/friends, has enabeld me to know these other people WANT to finish the content or give it a good go. I'm not arguing against matchmaking as a system to have because it gives those who truly want to use it the chance to use it, and those like myself and others who want the "old fashioned way" can do so perfectly fine. I just don't understand the mentality behind demanding a system because you don't have enough time in which to do the content appropriately (you may very well find people who are okay with that interruption) even though that time limitation can actually instead be a negative to the other players in your match made group.

I just want to be clear again, matchmaking is fine. Having it doesn't ruin a game. The only instance of that happening is WoW and that was the destruction of community through server sharing rather than JUST Looking for Group because a tool to help group people quickly can still have involvement from the community it just needs to be done. All games should have matchmaking, I'm just interested in why those time-limited feel that their demand is purposeful despite the negative impact it may potentially have rather then simply state they just want matchmaking.
 
Oct 26, 2017
55
I don't understand what you mean by this. If you weren't interested in playing that raid at the time, then why would you have MMed in the first place?

in WoW obviously I only queue in MM when I feel like doing a dungeon or raid. when I'm not in the mood for that then I do other content
The randoms are interested, of course, but they will alt+f4 to the first wipe. And that happens all the time.

I don't know what WoW or FF raids are like. They could very well be harder than destiny raids.

But there is a difference between "This raid is hard" and "this raid requires communication to beat"

I mean certain encounters in a Destiny raid cannot be completed unless people know what their role is in that raid. Are you a runner. Are you handling this boss or this boss?

There are certain tasks where Player A needs to relay to player B where and when to do a certain action. You legitimately need a mic for certain encounters. Its not hard. You just need to communicate.
I raided Mythic in WoW Legion and they're harder than Destiny's.
The difference in this games raids are that the first ones are visual, I mean, you just need to see that huge area or the boss facing your way casting an attack and move away. Thats why LFR works. Just put a dummy who cast an area from time to time and you are done.
In Destiny you need to talk even for the littlest detail, not hard, just talk. I need to know if you have Antumbra or Penumbra or shit like that.

If Div2 raids are visual, they can add LFR, if not, they become such a pain...
 
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OP
OP
Remark
Oct 27, 2017
890
So you guys actually wanna talk about the contents of this update, because I'm a new player who just got to wt1 and I wanna hear what they added to the game.
I mean outside of a lot of QoL updates (After Mission summary, fixes to gear sets, buffs to exotics, changes to talents etc.) the only new content is the Raid.

There is 3 new Gear Sets and Exotic AR but they are raid exclusive.
 
Nov 2, 2017
10,863
I can’t believe there are people still arguing against MM, who the hell cares if it’ll be a terrible experience or not? That’s for us to deal with, not allowing a chunk of the playerbase to experience certain parts of the game unless they go to external sites and be tied with 7 other players is shitty, I want to play the Raid whenever I want, if we manage to finish it? Great, if we don’t? No problem, I experienced part of it and can do more at any time I want.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,687
I can’t believe there are people still arguing against MM, who the hell cares if it’ll be a terrible experience or not? That’s for us to deal with, not allowing a chunk of the playerbase to experience certain parts of the game unless they go to external sites and be tied with 7 other players is shitty, I want to play the Raid whenever I want, if we manage to finish it? Great, if we don’t? No problem, I experienced part of it and can do more at any time I want.
MM click and play on a whim is not the answer and never has been.

Just slapping on MM would likely create a whole heap of new issues for them, players using it calling for balances to their MM with random experience: Fix the trolls, fix the AFK, do something about people not using mics, stop letting noobs queue for the raid, etc...

A raid with randoms would be hell the majority of the time and most players here would be posting in threads saying "well, that modes is a shit show I won't be using again".

They need a robust and feature rich LFG system in-game for players to use. Somewhere a player like yourself can filter time zones, time slots, experience required, etc... and find like minded players. A system that requires you all to join up in a safe house before you leave to have a quick chat about rolls etc... this would help minimize things like trolls, players who won't use their mics, AFKs, and levels of experience find the right players.

Just slapping on MM is not the answer, BUT they 100% should have better systems in game to support players and not force them outside of the game to group.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,041
NJ
I kinda want to see them just throwing it in there and see the world burn.
Same.

Would love to see endless posts. "Holy fuck, my teammates are total shit"

I sorta want Bungie to add it in D3, just to see people bitch and moan. I guess it's the only way they'll learn. People need to slam their face against a brick wall to figure out that maybe that isn't a good idea.
 
Nov 2, 2017
10,863
MM click and play on a whim is not the answer and never has been.

Just slapping on MM would likely create a whole heap of new issues for them, players using it calling for balances to their MM with random experience: Fix the trolls, fix the AFK, do something about people not using mics, stop letting noobs queue for the raid, etc...

A raid with randoms would be hell the majority of the time and most players here would be posting in threads saying "well, that modes is a shit show I won't be using again".

They need a robust and feature rich LFG system in-game for players to use. Somewhere a player like yourself can filter time zones, time slots, experience required, etc... and find like minded players. A system that requires you all to join up in a safe house before you leave to have a quick chat about rolls etc... this would help minimize things like trolls, players who won't use their mics, AFKs, and levels of experience find the right players.

Just slapping on MM is not the answer, BUT they 100% should have better systems in game to support players and not force them outside of the game to group.
Yes it is, everything else will be handled by the players since you can kick people from parties, MMOs for decades have been offering MM without a problem yet these lite MMOs refuse to do shit.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,687
Yes it is, everything else will be handled by the players since you can kick people from parties, MMOs for decades have been offering MM without a problem yet these lite MMOs refuse to do shit.
And it works for MMOs better because of assigned rolls. It's usually an easier mode, or outdated content.

This kind of solution, on a whim click and play MM was NEVER the correct solution for FPS Destiny style raiding.

We don't exactly know what TD2 raid will be yet, but it probably requires similar co-ordination to Destiny's content.

Also, remember I am fully advocating for a more robust and supportive system.
 
Nov 2, 2017
10,863
And it works for MMOs better because of assigned rolls. It's usually an easier mode, or outdated content.

This kind of solution, on a whim click and play MM was NEVER the correct solution for FPS Destiny style raiding.

We don't exactly know what TD2 raid will be yet, but it probably requires similar co-ordination to Destiny's content.

Also, remember I am fully advocating for a more robust and supportive system.
Again, it doesn’t matter how complex a raid is, give people the option to MM for it and a chance to see and experience parts of it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,687
Again, it doesn’t matter how complex a raid is, give people the option to MM for it and a chance to see and experience parts of it.
Yes it does. If we're talking about Destiny style raiding, it absolutely does.

The lowest_possible_effort grouping option is not the suitable one for content that takes this kind of effort to complete.
 
Nov 2, 2017
10,863
Yes it does. If we're talking about Destiny style raiding, it absolutely does.

The lowest_possible_effort grouping option is not the suitable one for content that takes this kind of effort to complete.
I’m not gonna repeat myself again, what I’m saying is clear and there is no argument against it when there are countless examples.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,749
Devs have a stream going on twitch right now talking about the raid.

Senior Raid Designer just said that this raid pushes "combat" puzzles further than anything they've had before. And in internal testing if just ONE person was confused about their role/not communicating it would mess up the whole thing.

They said they are looking into a matchmaking solution that is "more meaningful" after launch. IE more than just random people populating your session.

They said in the past game they decided to have matchmaking for incursions, and people were able to complete it, but they saw an alarming amount of feedback about people getting kicked for bad gear score, bad weapons.. they were also kicked right before the game ended as well or to make room for the leaders friends.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,749
which is the same as lfg
I've mentioned this before.

You can get people who don't communicate on MM and LFG.
You can get hosts who are dicks in MM and LFG
You can get AWFUL players on MM and LFG.

What LFG does is (anecdotal evidence here) make it so you experience that stuff 90% of the time (matchmaking) to 10% of the time (LFG)

LFG inherently lets you have some form of screening. You can CHOOSE to invite someone at a lower gear score. I've joined LFG groups where we carried lower level players through a destiny raid.

It also screens for the most important factor. Mic communication. You might need to spend 3 hours to get a matchmade group of 8!!!!! players that all have mics. You can guarantee everyone has a mic in LFG. A mic will be more important than any shooting skill. I just need to know you can hear and can communicate the necesarry information.
 
Oct 27, 2017
597
  • Implemented various UI and audio improvements to Living World activities.
Been a few weeks since I played the game- did they finally fix the piss-weak sounding guns? It was such a massive downgrade from the booming explosive sound of the guns in Div 1.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,687
I've mentioned this before.

You can get people who don't communicate on MM and LFG.
You can get hosts who are dicks in MM and LFG
You can get AWFUL players on MM and LFG.

What LFG does is (anecdotal evidence here) make it so you experience that stuff 90% of the time (matchmaking) to 10% of the time (LFG)

LFG inherently lets you have some form of screening. You can CHOOSE to invite someone at a lower gear score. I've joined LFG groups where we carried lower level players through a destiny raid.

It also screens for the most important factor. Mic communication. You might need to spend 3 hours to get a matchmade group of 8!!!!! players that all have mics. You can guarantee everyone has a mic in LFG. A mic will be more important than any shooting skill. I just need to know you can hear and can communicate the necesarry information.
Exactly.

It seems as though Massive understand, I just hope the support system they deliver comes soon and has enough features to be useful.
 
Oct 25, 2017
554
Atlanta
They said in the past game they decided to have matchmaking for incursions, and people were able to complete it, but they saw an alarming amount of feedback about people getting kicked for bad gear score, bad weapons.. they were also kicked right before the game ended as well or to make room for the leaders friends.
What stopping this from happen with offline LFG teams? You get 8 people read to go, log into the game and realize 2 of the guys have "bad weapons"

You might need to spend 3 hours to get a matchmade group of 8!!!!! players that all have mics. You can guarantee everyone has a mic in LFG. A mic will be more important than any shooting skill. I just need to know you can hear and can communicate the necesarry information.
Not worth the trade off of no MM for me, but maybe these types of Raids just arent for me, which kind of suck I guess.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,749
What stopping this from happen with offline LFG teams? You get 8 people read to go, log into the game and realize 2 of the guys have "bad weapons"
Like I said.

They just won't invite you to the game if you are a low gear score. You can check everyone before you start. Nip that in the bud before it becomes a problem. Instead of after 1 hour of failing at the first boss.
 
I didn't see it listed in the patch notes, but it sure feels like my drone heals me *much* slower. Is anyone else experiencing that?

I also misread the change to Patience.. I thought it was saying it healed a higher percentage now, but I guess it means you had to wait 3 seconds before and now it's 5. It's funny, those 2 seconds feel like forever in game time.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,749
They said mechanically speaking, you will need AT LEAST 4 people to beat the encounters. Unclear if he meant for all encounters or just some initial ones but it is mechanically impossible with less than 4.

Don't take this as a "oh I can do this with just 4 now!" It is going to be absurdly hard. Like people doing destiny raid encounters with 4, 3, 2, 1 etc.

EDIT: Ooo they took the revive mechanic from Destiny 2 raids.

If a player gets downed they can be revived normally.

If they get knocked unconscious, they need to be revived with a revive token. Every player gets only 1 token each. (i assume per encounter)

Raid will have commendations with rewards (arm patches it sounds like) for beating certain encounters AND to beat certain encounters in certain ways (think challenge modes in Destiny)

Worlds First Team will be mailed a physical patch too.

No Radar in the Raid for balancing reasons
 
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Oct 25, 2017
1,749
I have a feeling that the raid won't be that hard, like a challenging mission but with more mechanics. Ten bucks it will be beaten today.
Well... aside from maybe The Last Wish in Destiny, all those raids were beaten within 12 hours.

They said their best team beat it in around 30 min I believe.

But for perspective, I think the world record for Last Wish is like 20something minutes. Worlds first took just under 24 hours.

EDIT: There is a bug with weapons not working.
Workarounds are just reload, swap, or unequip and re-equip.