You should of been prepared for a pained ass if you were planning on playing a match made raid to begin with.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
The Division 2 Title Update 3: Operation Dark Hours - Patch Notes
- Thread starter Remark
- Start date
You should of been prepared for a pained ass if you were planning on playing a match made raid to begin with.
Do you play on Xbox? The built in LFG system for Xbox it well used by the community, and with a popular game like Division 2, you should have issues finding LGF requests for groups looking to pick up another player, especially on typical raid days like reset day and fri/sat.
They also said there would be matchmaking for all activities previously so what are people supposed to believe?
The biggest problem here is their communication previously, now and in the next few days. Whether it should or should not have matchmaking is really not the issue to me and if they had been upfront about it I would have said oh well.
The devs have talked about what I wrote ever since the first raid was announced. I am not just going by today's SOTG.
But I mean, all of this is folly anyway. Raid is out tomorrow and then we know. Everything right now is wasted breath/finger performance lol
thx for the explanation, now i get what people mean with randoms. it is more about having control to filter beforehand instead of having people which maybe have no mics or not the gear needed for the activity.
both of those things could be filtered though, like "only look for people with mic and who know what to do". it is a delicate thing with raid matchmaking, i can honestly understand both sides, the one that just wants to jump in and pushing a button to raid and the ones that want to filter through people beforehand.
Good. Raids that have some what complex mechanics that is not just shooting should not have matchmaking. You need active communication. Destiny 1 & 2 have proved the general population cannot even do the most simplest of tasks like throwing a ball / orb to a team mate. Or bank motes in Gambit when the game EXPLICITLY TELLS YOU TO. How about getting paired with randoms who quit after the first phase of Gambit or strike when it doesn't go their way? Putting matchmaking in the raid would make it so that the mechanics are so dumbed down that its not even challenging which would go against the developers vision of what they see a raid as.
Literally just use a LFG or join a discord community. There are tons of people willing to help in raids once its been out for a while. Hell, in Destiny Era discord, there are tons of people carrying people through Last Wish and Zero Hour ALL THE TIME. Just just literally have to ask:
@PS4 / @XB1 "Hey can anyone help me run through the raid in a couple hours? First time and would love to learn the mechanics. Thanks!!"
If you aren't willing to do that when there is so many options available to either make a group or hell, even make some new online friends. I dont know what to tell you. At this point, it sounds like excuses to me.
Literally just use a LFG or join a discord community. There are tons of people willing to help in raids once its been out for a while. Hell, in Destiny Era discord, there are tons of people carrying people through Last Wish and Zero Hour ALL THE TIME. Just just literally have to ask:
@PS4 / @XB1 "Hey can anyone help me run through the raid in a couple hours? First time and would love to learn the mechanics. Thanks!!"
If you aren't willing to do that when there is so many options available to either make a group or hell, even make some new online friends. I dont know what to tell you. At this point, it sounds like excuses to me.
Honestly this is a fair criticism to make.
I think if the raid proves that comms are necessary their no MM decision is justified but they deserve to be called out on broken promises.
Another debate for another time is similar to the Sekiro easy mode debate.
At what point is a dev entitled to make sure you can complete certain content?
Because everything else in this game is possible solo. Is it unfair that this endgame activity requires a team? Is it fair to those of us who want complexity that it should be dumbed down to be able to done with matchmaking?
Hell, I know before the tweet that there was NO MM I was honestly ready for the shit show of people trying to do this raid matchmaking lol.
Guess we will all have to wait and see tomorrow though.
And see that's part of the frustration, for me at least. I was hoping to drop in when I have time tomorrow and just give it a go. I'm not down for waiting for 7 others to line up our schedule to run it and talk with people I dont know, Era or not. I'm in the Division discord but again, I'm not one to socialize on comms with others, just not my thing.
So at this point, it looks like I'm gonna have to wait and see how the raid is. I just hope it doesnt put me off entirely because I imagine it'll be old news once everyone is through it and might be hard to avoid the details of it here, reddit, and discord. Ah well, this just sucks all around.
No Matchmaking for Raids since it being the end all content is fine considering that most randoms will leave before the first boss if it's too hard and you'll be running failure into failure with people unable to pull their weight or not really interested in completing it.
TD1 had match making for incursions and even that is like pulling teeth and not fun 90% of the time because people never stayed for actually completing it, only to be carried. Not until the 1.4 changes because people didn't understand how they worked, leaving after one team wipe and so on. It wasn't really consistantly viable until system wide mechanic changes which made everything a whole lot easier and even then most people don't understand how they work, it's just a case that one person can carry a whole team of four and make it work. I still have bad experiences with randoms on TD1 especially in Clear Sky and Dragon's Nest and playing Reclaimer is the only reason I can drag people through the content.
People using FFXIV as an example is a weird one because Raid Finder is an absolute shit show for any of the current at that time Savage content outside the Asia servers (Not so much for extreme primals) and normally people are SO put off by it the waiting times can be any where for 30 minutes to an hour before getting in to wipe once to someone lying about their progress and starting the search again.
There is a reason people use Party Finder (The LFG) and not the Raid Finder (The Matchmaking) in FFXIV.
TD1 had match making for incursions and even that is like pulling teeth and not fun 90% of the time because people never stayed for actually completing it, only to be carried. Not until the 1.4 changes because people didn't understand how they worked, leaving after one team wipe and so on. It wasn't really consistantly viable until system wide mechanic changes which made everything a whole lot easier and even then most people don't understand how they work, it's just a case that one person can carry a whole team of four and make it work. I still have bad experiences with randoms on TD1 especially in Clear Sky and Dragon's Nest and playing Reclaimer is the only reason I can drag people through the content.
People using FFXIV as an example is a weird one because Raid Finder is an absolute shit show for any of the current at that time Savage content outside the Asia servers (Not so much for extreme primals) and normally people are SO put off by it the waiting times can be any where for 30 minutes to an hour before getting in to wipe once to someone lying about their progress and starting the search again.
There is a reason people use Party Finder (The LFG) and not the Raid Finder (The Matchmaking) in FFXIV.
There's an additional thing on top of all that.
Pre made randoms have a higher chance of "sticking to it" (in terms of commitment as well as in terms of trying repeatedly despite failure) even if they don't have a mic than MM randoms. Even more so if they are all from the same community (like Era). This is because when it comes to pre made, the people get in with the same commitment beforehand and organise something with each other beforehand.
There's something about actual off game interaction that solidifies this commitment which is something you do not/cannot get from MM randoms. I don't think you'd disagree when I say that it's far easier to quit on people you never interacted with even once than it is with people you at the very least organised something with via text chat, even if you don't speak to them while actually playing the game.
The idea of a true "random" is also someone who literally isn't part of a community/specific group/specific place. They are truly RANDOM and enter/leave a group in such a way that no one knows them and if they misbehave no one has any place or way of warning other people about them.
With LFG communities people are part of something. They basically get an automatic "alright you are in" pass, but that pass can be revoked if you get branded by the community as an asshole. That might still be a "random" but he is part of the same community as you and you can warn the rest of the community about them and (if it's a well admin'd one) actually kick them out of the community.
What this means is that (usually) LFG communites and websites not only by the sheer fact that you need to be actively entering them and signing up for them mean you play with more "enthusiasts" compared to "whoever" in MM, but it also is self-regulating, which MM just can not be.
TL;DR: LFG "randoms" are by nature higher "quality" than MM "randoms" because of the natural differences between LFG and MM (one being "manual" and one being "automatic")
Matchmaking on raids is a complete mess and a terrible idea, unless you like to match with random people who can fuck it up the progress because they has 0 idea how to play.
For the solo players, there's a lot of groups on discord, facebook, reddit where you can find a clan or premade groups.
For the solo players, there's a lot of groups on discord, facebook, reddit where you can find a clan or premade groups.
How fun, having to leave the game to play with randoms which is just like playing via MM. People can make it sound like chatting with 7 other randoms in a LFG site or discord, etc. is much better but it's the same damn thing. You still have no clue if they're reliable or willing to play how you want until you're in the game and you don't know their build. People can still easily troll in those scenarios and will now even more so because it's the only way to get in. Gonna be an interesting next few days for sure.
***Once again, what I am saying below is under the assumption this raid, like destiny raids, requires communication to complete. This is going off of what devs said and the label of it being a raid***
Raids are inherently not drop in drop out though. There is a reason they are on a weekly reset. It is something you kinda gotta plan for. Strongholds are drop in drop out. Missions are. Dark Zone even is. A raid is something more complex. You can be upset that this new content isn't as accessible but that doesn't mean it shouldn't exist for those that want something with added complexity.
As cold as it might be to say... it just might not be for you.
But I'm sure anyone on this site would gladly help you complete it.
As I said with Destiny, Final Fantasy XIV manages just fine with match made raids.
It's just an excuse in this day and age. What difference is LFG to random matchmaking? its the same damn players looking for a group.
Good luck Ubi,
This seems like the same Destiny discussion.
There are more ways to do this that totally random matchmaking. And no, "go to reddit to try and find people" isn't a good solution for a lot of users. It's not an hard concept.
Sure, a simpler version with more guidance might be too much to ask (I don't think it is since there's way more work involved in creating the raid and with some tweaks and help you would cater to substantial more people but I might be wrong) but not even a LFG in-game? Nah, that's not good.
There are more ways to do this that totally random matchmaking. And no, "go to reddit to try and find people" isn't a good solution for a lot of users. It's not an hard concept.
Sure, a simpler version with more guidance might be too much to ask (I don't think it is since there's way more work involved in creating the raid and with some tweaks and help you would cater to substantial more people but I might be wrong) but not even a LFG in-game? Nah, that's not good.
No ingame LFG is hilarious. Same for Destiny.
Should have made the Tower have a spot for raid matchmaking, especially since you can still change weapons and whatnot through the vault.
This is why my Phantasy Star Online itch won't get scratched.
For people that think MM is a no-go because raids in Destiny are complicated check this guide out for an FF XIV raid:
You only need to watch the first 5-10 minutes to get the idea. This is matchmade from day 1. Not dumbed down, sky didn't collapse. So, unless those Destiny raids are more complex than this those arguments are invalid.
You only need to watch the first 5-10 minutes to get the idea. This is matchmade from day 1. Not dumbed down, sky didn't collapse. So, unless those Destiny raids are more complex than this those arguments are invalid.
I think it's a little more nuanced by the fact I can't recall Bungie ever claiming all in game activities would have matchmaking.
There are like 3 posts right above yours (one of them is mine) that explicitly detail why LFG with randoms and MM with randoms is not the "same damn thing". Please go through them, because they are legitimate points and have been proven to be true over the years.
Yeah I read those before I commented. My comment was specifically directed at those. And I don't agree.
No offense but I have at most 4 people I could get on at the same time to do raids, which require 8 and we have no way to fill those empty slots without going out and looking for said people? Nah.
Trying to find people in here is not easy. Especially across platforms.
I've used LFG on Xbox find people to do a Nightfall in Destiny and it's just friction to play the game.
Also, how is "having to go to a message board to find people" acceptable in 2019?
Minimum is having LFG in the game. Division, Destiny or otherwise.
Well why so? Because it's something that's verifiable via experiences over the years in several games. I'm not trying to gate keep the discussion but how much experience do you have with games like these? Because I can't see how one can have played these sort of games so much and not agree to something that essentially comes down to human nature. It's impossible for people to treat others the same way if they never interacted with them before even in a minor form...that's human nature.
If I was to join you in a game right now and decide to do a stronghold then even if I was playing half heartedly / or was totally disinterested in playing the game today I'd consider twice about quitting because you'd be someone I interacted with, and even if I do quit I'd tell you that and at the very least finish the ongoing encounter in the stronghold before dropping out. If I were to play with a random via MM I'd straight up alt+F4 if I was disinterested in playing. You can say I'm a shitty person to do this but this is what MM is like and I've experienced it plenty from the other end as well.
Last edited:
all of you anti-MM people are full of shit as far as I'm concerned. or have not played other MMOs other than Destiny
let's just take the easiest example because it's one of the biggest/popular games in video game history -- WoW
I have done countless MM LFR raids in WoW and it's perfectly fine and balanced for MM. so don't tell me it's impossible
now yes, this does require having different difficulty levels for raids obviously. but TD2 already has different difficulty settings for its missions and strongholds, so of course they can do that
if there was only one raid difficulty that is equivalent to Mythic in WoW, then yeah MM would be useless. but that just means the devs would be... you know what word (I can't think of any other word to use)
last thing -- don't tell me that no one would be interested in doing easy difficulty raids, that is straight bullshit too. there are plenty of players who would. you think every single WoW player does Mythic raids? that's the smallest percentage of the entire playerbase
let's just take the easiest example because it's one of the biggest/popular games in video game history -- WoW
I have done countless MM LFR raids in WoW and it's perfectly fine and balanced for MM. so don't tell me it's impossible
now yes, this does require having different difficulty levels for raids obviously. but TD2 already has different difficulty settings for its missions and strongholds, so of course they can do that
if there was only one raid difficulty that is equivalent to Mythic in WoW, then yeah MM would be useless. but that just means the devs would be... you know what word (I can't think of any other word to use)
last thing -- don't tell me that no one would be interested in doing easy difficulty raids, that is straight bullshit too. there are plenty of players who would. you think every single WoW player does Mythic raids? that's the smallest percentage of the entire playerbase
I don't understand what you mean by this. If you weren't interested in playing that raid at the time, then why would you have MMed in the first place?
in WoW obviously I only queue in MM when I feel like doing a dungeon or raid. when I'm not in the mood for that then I do other content
I get what you're saying, I do. I simply don't agree with the outcome as plainly as you do. I would agree in the one instance of us being in Era together and joining in that discord, sure. But, the thing is, that's not the option for everyone and Massive has done a disservice to those who need to use reddit or something like 100.io and just get grouped up with people they have no relationship with, unlike us here who like you said, I wouldn't just quit from.
Again though, that's part of my issue with this. I need to set aside the time to try and plan to meet up with 7 others here who are all able to go at the same time. That's not an easy option. I'd much rather drop in and play with randoms with the chance of them dropping if things got hairy. We'll just find a replacement or re-queue like we do today in MM. That also brings up that I've done this numerous times in SWTOR which I mentioned in a previous post, Operations (raids) which use MM.
Part of my issue with LFG sites, etc were from issues I had getting a decent group together in Destiny years ago. So I'm not too excited about running into something like that again. I was already pretty anti-social at the time and that just made it even worse.
Which further illustrates my point because this is exactly what I've been trying to say.
The level of commitment you get via matchmaking is different than it is via LFG. Plenty of times I'd start a game because I just feel like it then within 5-10 minutes my mood changes and I'm not in it, or I realise that I was never really in a mood to play this game so I alt+F4 and just go watch a TV instead. And because I don't interact with the people and because " they'll just get someone else match made to their team" I don't feel bad about it. You can't afford to have this kind of constant drop in and drop puts in raids.
You may not understand why, but this happens all the time ! It'd make up for a good percentage of time why people quite in games.
With LFG you can at the very least guarantee that everyone is on the same page commitment wise, you can never guarantee this with MM.
I still dont understands how using LFG is any more of a commitment than putting yourself into MM. I really don't. Not trying to be argumentative, but it escapes me. The only thing I see a commitment to is speaking to someone I know or have talked with, at some length, in the recent past. Beyond that, everyone in my eyes is a 'random' regardless of where I'm talking to them and they might leave at any moment or be terrible, etc.
ok well I don't have that type of change in moods, at least not that quickly within 5-10 minutes. so I would have never thought of that being a possibility
whenever I queue for MM in WoW dungeon or raid, it's because I know that's what I feel like doing the next 15-30 minutes
it's rare for people to drop out in the middle of dungeons or raids in WoW, so it's not that common (at least for the MM difficulties I mean. I don't know about Mythics, because I don't do that difficulty)
They're not mutually exclusive. If matchmaking was in for the raid would any of the pro-LFG players in this thread have to use it? As it is now, a vast majority of players simply won't be playing the raid. That sucks.
I've been preaching the inclusion of in game LFG since Destiny has been out. It fuckin better be in Destiny 3.
plenty of posters have made that comparison, not just here but in other threads and elsewhere. because it's a valid comparison. it's not like Division has some sort of super special gameplay that would prevent it
as already stated, Division already implements different difficulty levels for its missions/strongholds. it's not hard for them to do the same for Raids, where the easiest difficulty (like Story level for missions) can easily be completed by MM players
he does use it. we all do. or we use our clans/friends.
that doesn't mean we don't want LFG to be inside the game.
but just not matchmaking though right? because who cares about anybody that would use that feature.
I laughed but honestly it's a valid point alluding to the earlier discussion about commitment. I just don't see the difference. Having LFG in the game in my mind simply is no different on the quality of the player on the other end. Anyone who queues for something via MM is intending to do said content and isn't going to just drop any faster than if they were in LFG. I know others clearly disagree, but that's my take based on my experience with other games.
i don't care if it is in or not in, honestly.
I know the outrage would just be in another package.
instead of "omg you want me to find 7 other people??? fuck you give me matchmaking!" it would be "matchmaking fucking sucks, i've been trying to beat this raid for 2 weeks and no group ever gets past the second boss. fix your fucking matchmaking massive! give us proper LFG!"
The devs have said they are open to evaluating matchmaking for the raid in the future, so that's something.
I personally just see it the way it always goes with this, like it did in Destiny:
Huge outrage, many posts about it, etc...
then the raid comes out and the people who care enough about playing it will play it
then the outrage will become less and less as time goes on and people just don't care
in the end the people who want to do the raid will still be doing the raid
whether that's 5%, 10% or 20% of the community (i don't know how it is for destiny), the raid will be done, every week by someone and life moves on.
To be fair...
Are you really playing the raid if you are relying on matchmaking? I mean you will get to see the intro, shoot some guys maybe. But you're not getting any boss drops. At least not consistently.
Oh man it is night and day.
I tried matchmaking for a relativly simplistic game like Sea of Thieves when it came out and for Arena. Nightmare 100% of the time.
No issues wth LFG. Just knowing someone can talk and is on the same page as you is huge. Thats what people aren't getting.
Matchmaking process goes as follows.
"I want to play raid"
*hit matchmaking*
**Agents found, you are joining a group**
Intro Cutscene Plays, you load into the airport.
"Everyone got a mic"
"I do"
"Yeah whats up"
*player 3 does jumping jacks*
*player 4 just rushes straight in*
"So only 3 people got mics? I'm out, gonna try for a better group"
**An agent has left your squad**
LFG Process goes
"I want to play a raid"
Check LFG site.
-Looking for 2 more for full raid completion. Must have mics.-
Hit I'm interested
Get invited to the pre game lobby.
"everyone ready to go?"
8 players say yes.
"alright lets go"
So much truth here.
Players advocating for a MM alternative aren't asshole, "gatekeeping" or "elitists".
There's absolutely no need for such a defensive stance. The raid will release a d those that are serious about it will find a group.