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zulux21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,370
the economic centers of this country are not going to open no matter what Trump says.
I'm not worried about the economic centers opening. I'm worried about places like Florida and Georgia and Louisiana who will do what the president says, and basically speed run it.

None of the blue states need to open back up to potentially kill millions with the line of logic trump is currently using.
 

feline fury

Member
Dec 8, 2017
1,542
I'm going to say it MIGHT not be. Bad news is bad, but the market won't care if productivity returns.

It's awful, but true.
We haven't reached peak panic yet. Hell, outside of some select states, is there even any panic? When people are dying in masse, it becomes harder to handwave the pandemic away.

Counterpoint, a lot of the red states that are ignoring the public health issues might not factor all that strongly into the stock market. Economy, yes. But probably not Wall Street.
 

Deleted member 8741

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,917
500 a day for a country this big actually wouldn't even be near the worst case scenario, but good luck getting people to "return to productivity" if even that's happening.

My point is, if certain states push forward work anyway, the market may respond positively despite the deaths. Many people WILL work if they have to or they are fired. Cities and some states will resist, but I'm not convinced that eventually the pressure will be to return despite the toll.

Market vs. Economy as well. I don't know where all this lands. I just don't think the market will correlate directly with deaths.

Do I think this should happen? No. Is it foolish? Yes. Do the markets care bout lives? No.

Uncharted waters.
 

gcubed

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,785
Trump says he wants to be open again by Easter.
ha, that was my guess when looking at the calendar and figuring Trumps itchiness to re-open. Good news is its not next week. Should be able to ramp up testing supplies and things should be going the other direction if people were listening to distancing orders. You can manage hot spots if you have proper supplies. NY will still be trying to recover. Flordia will be in the middle of a crisis
 

MrBob

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,670
My point is, if certain states push forward work anyway, the market may respond positively despite the deaths. Many people WILL work if they have to or they are fired. Cities and some states will resist, but I'm not convinced that eventually the pressure will be to return despite the toll.

Market vs. Economy as well. I don't know where all this lands. I just don't think the market will correlate directly with deaths.

Do I think this should happen? No. Is it foolish? Yes. Do the markets care bout lives? No.

Uncharted waters.
I agree with your general sentiment but one counter point I'll mention is there are some not for profit organizations that do a lot of good in local communities which are worrying about surviving right now. If they go under it will be a net negative impact for these communities, because they use the money earned to give back to a big degree.

At the very least this shut down is going to impact how much they can give back, but I understand why they have to be shut down.
 

Pwnz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,279
Places
So much speculation in this rally when nothing has changed. Trump had a meaningless statement that people should go back to work when every major city and state will ignore it and continue the shutdown as they should. The relief package the GOP wants isn't happening. Maybe parts of it will in some compromise, but it doesn't change the fundamental issue going on - businesses are gridlocked, paying payroll while revenue is cratered due to a lack of purchasing between businesses. We'll see it when earnings are released and when the PMI report in about 10 days is released, but it's obvious what it will be. Mass losses, mass layoffs, PMI < 40 in manufacturing and < 45 in services. It isn't complicated.
 

Deleted member 8741

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,917
I agree with your general sentiment but one counter point I'll mention is there are some not for profit organizations that do a lot of good in local communities which are worrying about surviving right now. If they go under it will be a net negative impact for these communities, because they use the money earned to give back to a big degree.

At the very least this shut down is going to impact how much they can give back, but I understand why they have to be shut down.

Yes, I work in development for a nonprofit. I get it :)
 

thefit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,243
I'm not worried about the economic centers opening. I'm worried about places like Florida and Georgia and Louisiana who will do what the president says, and basically speed run it.

None of the blue states need to open back up to potentially kill millions with the line of logic trump is currently using.

States that stay shut are going limit or block non essential travel to those states and so will countries. Its futile for them to reopen because they wont have any impact on the economy, people wont be allowed to travel back from those states if they went on stupid shit like a vacation at corona beach Florida and frankly places like Disney aren't going to reopen for idiots and for a giant sized liability problem. I bet some red states will try but quickly realize how worthless they are to the rest of the union.
 

Metroidvania

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,770
Holy crap, I somehow missed the info on the massive run for TVIX, lmao - goes from <50 bucks end of February to (briefly) up to 800+ on March 18th.

Someone made some mad dollars on that cash-in from all the volatility.
 

Deleted member 17092

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,360
My point is, if certain states push forward work anyway, the market may respond positively despite the deaths. Many people WILL work if they have to or they are fired. Cities and some states will resist, but I'm not convinced that eventually the pressure will be to return despite the toll.

Market vs. Economy as well. I don't know where all this lands. I just don't think the market will correlate directly with deaths.

Do I think this should happen? No. Is it foolish? Yes. Do the markets care bout lives? No.

Uncharted waters.

This is a global pandemic. Some states having stupid governors isn't going to change that. And yeah as ^ it isn't going to drastically impact the unemployment and mfg and services PMI. All signs point to this being as bad as 08.
 

Deleted member 8741

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,917
This is a global pandemic. Some states having stupid governors isn't going to change that. And yeah as ^ it isn't going to drastically impact the unemployment and mfg and services PMI. All signs point to this being as bad as 08.

I think you misunderstand me. All of this is intensely problematic and I agree with it being as bad as 08 at least.

However, the snapback of bailouts and mass liquidity combined with opportunities for market rallies might have the markets leading ahead of pandemic and actual production. The concern here is not the same as 08. It's definitely a massive hit, but it is not likely to be as long-term systemically as the 08 recession are.

Now, how the lagging effects of this hit ripple through the economy long-term is a whole other question. We will see in the upcoming weeks.

I just don't think it's as simple as saying a global pandemic is going to destroy the mfg and services therefore all the stocks will continue to drop for the foreseeable future. I'm not saying that's not a true statement, but it's just not as simple as that alone.
 

prophetvx

Member
Nov 28, 2017
5,331
I think you misunderstand me. All of this is intensely problematic and I agree with it being as bad as 08 at least.

However, the snapback of bailouts and mass liquidity combined with opportunities for market rallies might have the markets leading ahead of pandemic and actual production. The concern here is not the same as 08. It's definitely a massive hit, but it is not likely to be as long-term systemically as the 08 recession are.

Now, how the lagging effects of this hit ripple through the economy long-term is a whole other question. We will see in the upcoming weeks.

I just don't think it's as simple as saying a global pandemic is going to destroy the mfg and services therefore all the stocks will continue to drop for the foreseeable future. I'm not saying that's not a true statement, but it's just not as simple as that alone.
Systemically there are just as many concerns as there were in 08. Air travel will take at least 12 months to recover, if not longer. Hospitality industries are wiped out. Healthcare and insurance premiums will sky rocket. The entire world is hoarding US cash skewing terms of trade.

The housing and banking crisis of the GFC was obviously far narrower and severe in scope but considering there were already significant warning signs globally of an impending recession before this hit, it may be a little bit optimistic to believe the path to recovery will be shorter.

If anything, given the possibility of global sustained lockdown, the market is behind the curve. We could see unemployment rates in the 20-30% range within 4 or 5 months, that is the underlying risk factor and if it even reaches 10-15% the path to recovery will far exceed that of the GFC.

Coverage of the pandemic is very skewed in the US, it's only really just caught up in the last week or so. Once the severity of the situation truly settles into public consciousness all bets are off on how far it can slide.
 
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Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,007
Trump back on that insider trading again, just like all those suspicious trades last year around his China trade deal comments. Hedge funds got the advance word on economy re-opening, bailouts, etc.

 

LJ11

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,489
I'm guessing this might have been a driver for the Fed to go all in yesterday?
They were going all in no matter what. At this point the Fed is buyer of last resort for everything. Way this law is structured right now it quells some forced liquidation, but exposes banks.

Here's Tom Barrack crying about needing his precious repo.

FT discussing the issue with REITs and their short term financing.

Everyone is crying for a fucking handout, we are all fucking marks to be honest.

Edit: Also an interesting breakdown for those interested.
 
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Tom Penny

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,235
I just need 3 more days in a row like this and I'll be content . Probably a pump and dump day tomorrow who am I kidding 🤷‍♂️
 

Zed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,544
Can't wait for the Trump tweet on a record setting day followed by a record drop a few days later.
 

dem

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
900
I just need 3 more days in a row like this and I'll be content . Probably a pump and dump day tomorrow who am I kidding 🤷‍♂️

3 more days like this and my accounts will be back to January.
Heck.. Probably up from January.

I'm getting tempted to sell and buy in again on another huge down day... which you know is inevitable.
 

Deleted member 30681

user requested account closure
Banned
Nov 4, 2017
3,184
I'm not worried about the economic centers opening. I'm worried about places like Florida and Georgia and Louisiana who will do what the president says, and basically speed run it.

None of the blue states need to open back up to potentially kill millions with the line of logic trump is currently using.
Georgian here. it feels like we are doing fuck all, and yeah our shitty governor will probably just follow Trump's lead.

me and my family will end up staying home despite that.
 

Sotha_Sil

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,065
I'm not worried about the economic centers opening. I'm worried about places like Florida and Georgia and Louisiana who will do what the president says, and basically speed run it.

None of the blue states need to open back up to potentially kill millions with the line of logic trump is currently using.

Don't worry, if there's one person Louisiana listens to more than Trump, it's Coach Oeaux. We're in good hands.


 

chezzymann

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,042
Its very disturbing that all these investors are letting their decisions be influenced by trump. Anything he says or speculates is about as credible as your drunk conspiracy theory believing uncle on facebook.
 

Tom Penny

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,235
3 more days like this and my accounts will be back to January.
Heck.. Probably up from January.

I'm getting tempted to sell and buy in again on another huge down day... which you know is inevitable.
I just want to be better than even in my brokerage account that was beating the market before. 401k makes me want to 🤮 4 years down the drain. Any decent bounce would be nice. Mad I didn't buy Google near a G. One of the only holdings I want.
 

RoKKeR

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,384
What an insane rally. I personally think it's complete euphoria and ignoring the reality of the situation but here we are.

If I had skin in the game I'd be loading up on shorts.
 

less

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,838
Tesla going above $500 has me shaking my head though looking at my though process for how it has been I'm continually becoming ever greedy. At first I wanted to wait until it dropped below $600 and now I want it to drop below $400 before loading up on quite a few more of it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
810
Georgian here. it feels like we are doing fuck all, and yeah our shitty governor will probably just follow Trump's lead.

me and my family will end up staying home despite that.
Georgia here also and there is nothing really at all being done. Hell my company just sent out an email telling us all these bullshit ass rules we should be following to maintain distance .. we make fucking rugs. The employees on the floor have to be in close contact with each other but because the county in their lockdown said manufacturers can stay open they are. The kicker is in the closing of the email they say we will be given badges to show cops we can be out .. because we are "________ an essential business "
 

2pac_71

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,510
Wow, what a close. But again, there has not been 2 consecutive positive days since February 4 and 5 I believe. I wonder if tomorrow will break it.
 
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