• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,094
I've long believed there was a strong link between the two, especially at the beginning of the Pokémon franchise, but I'm not so familiar with the behind the scenes stuff that I feel I have the full picture. It might be fun to discuss though. Maybe someone more knowledgeable about this than me can provide more info in this thread.

ape_inc_logo_26jkgr.png
creatures_inc.lvp1k.png

On the development end, the obvious link is APE Inc. As I understand it, when Shigesato Itoi contacted Shigeru Miyamoto to get a video game developed, they set up a new company - APE Inc. - to handle the development. After the second game was finished, Tsunekazu Ishikawa took most of APE's employees and formed Creatures Inc., which which went to work on Pokémon and owns one third of the copyright.

Perhaps coincidentally, Hip Tanaka worked on both of APE's Mother games when he was at Nintendo, then went on to do some work with Pokémon. When he found that he was not able to work with the series any more while remaining employed at Nintendo, he instead jumped ship to Creatures, and is now president there.


The contents of the games seem to be related too. The first two Mother games are noted for their contemporary setting. Pokémon isn't exactly there, but it's close. Poké Marts seem close to drug stores, Pokémon Centers to clinics. The cities in both are pretty grounded. They both have a bit of a retro futuristic vibe, but EarthBound largely restrains it to aliens and the friendly weirdo geniuses that stand up to them, whereas in Pokémon the technology is widespread, so it becomes more of a near future setting.

The existence of psychic powers in both settings is interesting. In EarthBound it's more prominent, being the equivalent of magic in the series. It's just another type in Pokémon, but it's one of the weirder ones, not being a standard RPG element or tied to nature. The psychic type felt special in the first Pokémon games, probably not entirely by intention, due to the type not having any obvious counters, Pokémon of the type being rare, and Sabrina's gym being difficult.


Just for completeness' sake, there are also ghosts and dragons in the first two Mother games, which I think covers the other weird types. But they're nowhere near as prominent as the psychic powers.

Oh, and Clefairy's an alien. EarthBound is pretty big on aliens.


A few of the specific characters in Pokémon seem to heavily invoke EarthBound as well. For starters, you've got Red and Ness. They're everyday preteen boys who set out on an adventure. They're from sleepy suburbs. They're largely silent protagonists. They wear red hats and backpacks. They both have absent fathers. Admittedly none of these are totally unique features, but that's a good chunk of both characters that line up.


Then you have Blue and Pokey / Porky. They're next door neighbours as well as rivals to the hero. They appear periodically, always one step ahead of you. They're also assholes who mock you ever chance they get. They have unexpected roles in the final boss battle - or final storyline battle in Pokémon's case. They even both have friendly siblings with little story involvement. It's not a total translation from one game to the other - Blue obviously looks totally different, he's more actively involved in fighting you, he's not evil, and there's no implication that he's motivated by anything more complex than sheer dickery. But their roles and the surface layers of their personalities are extremely close.


Mewtwo and Giegue / Gigyas / Giig are a pretty good match, although it's specifically a match with the Mother 1 / EarthBound Beginnings version of the character, and it's more surface level. They're both thin, tall catlike creatures with unmatched psychic powers who serve as a final boss. They also both have some subtle resemblance to a fetus. In Giegue's case, it's the bubble contraption you see him in. Mew is sometimes seen is a bubble, but for Mewtwo, it's more visible in his tail. Notice how his tail seems to start at his abdomen. Their stories aren't really all that similar though. If I wanted to really stretch the connection, I'd point at them both having a mother of some sort and being related to humans playing with something they shouldn't, but I can't seriously claim either of those connections.

It's also interesting that in Gold and Silver, Mewtwo seems to have left behind the Berserk Gene, which makes a Pokémon stronger at the cost of confusing them. I can't help but think of how in EarthBound, the animal and human enemies you fight throughout the game have been incited to violence by Gigyas' immense psychic power.


I suppose Dr. Andonuts from EarthBound and Professor Oak from Pokémon could be connection, since they're both helpful scientists who give you gadgets and are related to another important character, but I'm just bringing it up for the sake of looking for connections. It's probably a huge reach. I'm pretty sure this type of character was already common when these games came out, like Dr. Light from Mega Man or Dr. Saotome from Getter Robo. Professor Oak forgetting his grandson's name does kinda match up with Andonuts telling his son "let's get together again in another ten years" though.

A somewhat minor detail, but the Mother series and the Pokémon series use kana in Japanese (I think X+Y introduced an option for the kanji option). For Itoi, this was an intentional choice, as it encourages the player to read the text out loud to parse what's being said. He played a Dragon Quest game which lacked the tech to display kanji and like the effect. For Pokémon, it might be because younger players would learn kana first.


okay I may be bullshitting you with this last one.


I don't really have discussion questions in mind, so, uh. What say you, Era? Do you have more info that I don't? Have you thought about this connection too? Am I just full of shit? Would it count as slavery if you catch a Mr. Saturn in a Poké Ball?
 

Deleted member 1273

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,232
Yeah I do think they are both connected in some fashion and Pokemon gives nods to Earthbound, the most evident proof being Giygas and Mewtwo, but I think that stops there
 

Birdie

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
26,289
I know Generation 5 has N's Farewell Theme which sounds a lot like Mother 3's Love Theme.
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,109
I'd love to play a Pokemon game that had a visual style along the lines of Onett from SSBM.
 

byDoS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,192
What an incredible thread. There's so much here I've never heard of. It's a really interesting connection between those two series.
I didn't knew Creatures Inc. was formed by formers Ape's employees! This is so cool.
 

Stencil

Member
Oct 30, 2017
10,386
USA
I always thought this as a kid, too. I think it was mainly because Earthbound was the first RPG I played after Pokemon, but it is interesting that there were deeper connections than a simple genre.
 

Molemitts

Member
Oct 25, 2017
583
Yeah I feel there's definitely some references and similar designs. Mewtwo and Giygas, as op mentions, is the one that first comes to mind.
 

sfortunato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,740
Italy
Obvious reasons aside (Itoi helped Game Freak in developing the game, after all), similarities are due to the fact that both games want to present a fantasy world based on Japan and, more specifically, on Japan how it was experienced by the creators of the two series.
 

Dimmle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
312
I agree that Earthbound's influence can be felt in the original Pokemon games-- I'd place more emphasis on the contemporary overworld and specifically how it's traversed seamlessly (and on bike!), which was far from the standard for JRPGs back then.
 
OP
OP
L Thammy

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,094
I agree that Earthbound's influence can be felt in the original Pokemon games-- I'd place more emphasis on the contemporary overworld and specifically how it's traversed seamlessly (and on bike!), which was far from the standard for JRPGs back then.

Aaaah, that's a really good catch. I'm forgetting if that was actually marketed but that was something that set EarthBound apart. I feel like it even parodied the standard JRPG overworld with The Lost Underworld, where it has the heroes traveling a greater distance not by switching to a more abstract map, but just by zooming out until the characters are barely recognizable.


I remember wondering if this was an in-joke when I played Subspace Emissary (or maybe just when I looked back at Subspace Emissary). Don't they bump into Ness later, too?
 
OP
OP
L Thammy

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,094
Obvious reasons aside (Itoi helped Game Freak in developing the game, after all), similarities are due to the fact that both games want to present a fantasy world based on Japan and, more specifically, on Japan how it was experienced by the creators of the two series.

I think you might be confusing Itoi and Iwata here; Iwata's definitely another interesting thread between the two. I could always be wrong though, if Itoi was involved with Pokemon I just don't know it.

Iwata's credited with saving EarthBound, Pokemon Stadium, and Gold/Silver if I remember. HAL worked on both EarthBound and Pokemon Stadium.

Early Pokemon's based on Japan, the first two EarthBound game are based on America. Though Itoi was inspired by all sorts of people he met an things he did in EarthBound, so there are certainly Japan specific references - the mouse who introduces itself with "wagahai wa mausu de aru" immediately comes to mind.
 

WPS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
365
Mewtwo and Giegue / Gigyas / Giig are a pretty good match, although it's specifically a match with the Mother 1 / EarthBound Beginnings version of the character, and it's more surface level. They're both thin, tall catlike creatures with unmatched psychic powers who serve as a final boss. They also both have some subtle resemblance to a fetus. In Giegue's case, it's the bubble contraption you see him in. Mew is sometimes seen is a bubble, but for Mewtwo, it's more visible in his tail. Notice how his tail seems to start at his abdomen. Their stories aren't really all that similar though. If I wanted to really stretch the connection, I'd point at them both having a mother of some sort and being related to humans playing with something they shouldn't, but I can't seriously claim either of those connections.

The Giegue / Mewtwo connection is pretty interesting because that tiny sprite is the only art of Giegue we have. A lot of fan depictions of him therefore tend to go in reverse and be based off of Mewtwo's design.

Early Pokemon's based on Japan, the first two EarthBound game are based on America.

This is always weird to me. It might be just that that it doesn't come through in the limited art style, but despite originally being literally set in Japan, the Kanto region feels like one of the least japanese regions. The series's japanese roots are more obvious in Unova and Alola than they are in Kanto.
 

sfortunato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,740
Italy
I think you might be confusing Itoi and Iwata here; Iwata's definitely another interesting thread between the two. I could always be wrong though, if Itoi was involved with Pokemon I just don't know it.

Iwata's credited with saving EarthBound, Pokemon Stadium, and Gold/Silver if I remember. HAL worked on both EarthBound and Pokemon Stadium.

Early Pokemon's based on Japan, the first two EarthBound game are based on America. Though Itoi was inspired by all sorts of people he met an things he did in EarthBound, so there are certainly Japan specific references - the mouse who introduces itself with "wagahai wa mausu de aru" immediately comes to mind.

I've read somewhere that Itoi influenced the development of Pokémon Red/Green. Not actively developing the game but influencing the development---Ape/Creatures work on the first generation indeed (Ishihara, Tanaka).
 

ashm

Member
Oct 26, 2017
260
The connection between the two lies indeed on Creatures. One of Ape's most prominent employees, Tsunekazu Ishihara, collaborated with Game Freak when they first started as a software company in 1989 and proceeded to create Pokémon along with them between then and 1996. He had previously taken part in EarthBound's development, hence the influence. When Ape was dismantled after EarthBound's release in 1995 he founded Creatures as a successor company with Ape's former staff, and Ishihara's part of Pokémon involvement moved there (which is why they own 1/3 of the franchise). Creatures originally helped (and still does) with development of Pokémon games and also managed it as a brand until ~1998 when the management branch split off into The Pokémon Company with Ishihara as president once again.

Fun fact: One of the unused default names for Red is "NINTEN", but this likely doesn't refer to the Beginnings character, but the actual Nintendo, since Blue's respective unused name is "SONY". Which is even funnier when you think that Sony Music Japan (SCE's predecessor) was also a major Game Freak publisher at the time. :p

Also: Satoshi Tajiri's review of EarthBound Beginnings, circa 1989
 
Last edited:

Raina

Member
Oct 25, 2017
677
-There are Pokemon introduced in Black/White that are the same as enemies in Mother 3 (the mole and the sword)

-N's Theme's intro is directly ripped from the Mother 3 Love Theme.

- Also Sudowoodo is based on an old enemy from Mother 1, a tree creature called Woodoh.

-EarthBound did bikes you can hire and an expansive overworld in a modern setting before Pokemon.

- In EarthBound and Mother 1 the screen flashes on the overworld when a character is poisoned, before Pokemon did it

- You can hatch eggs by walking around in EarthBound and Mother 1, before Pokemon

- Flash is a move in both series, being a psychic ability in EarthBound.

- The Japanese version of EarthBound, Mother 2, had the subtitle 'Giygas Strikes Back', because he was the final boss of both games and probably due to a Star Wars reference. The first Pokemon movie's subtitle was 'Mewtwo Strikes Back'- considering the Giygas/Mewtwo similarities this was most likely an EarthBound reference.

- Oh, and the route nearest Lavaridge town in Emerald's theme is directly based off of Snowman's theme from Mother 1. On the route it 'snows' ash- Snowman is the cold, snowy, winter area in Mother 1.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
L Thammy

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,094
I've read somewhere that Itoi influenced the development of Pokémon Red/Green. Not actively developing the game but influencing the development---Ape/Creatures work on the first generation indeed (Ishihara, Tanaka).

It's very plausible. Hopefully someone can dig up more on this.

This is always weird to me. It might be just that that it doesn't come through in the limited art style, but despite originally being literally set in Japan, the Kanto region feels like one of the least japanese regions. The series's japanese roots are more obvious in Unova and Alola than they are in Kanto.

I don't think I ever thought of it as Japan when I was playing as a kid, so I suppose you're right. Kanto includes the Tokyo area, so maybe greater urbanization means less distinctly Japanese? Talking totally out of my ass on this.

The connection between the two lies indeed on Creatures. One of Ape's most prominent employees, Tsunekazu Ishihara, collaborated with Game Freak when they first started as a software company in 1989 and proceeded to create Pokémon along with them between then and 1996. He had previously taken part in EarthBound's development, hence the influence. When Ape was dismantled after EarthBound's release in 1995 he founded Creatures as a successor company with Ape's former staff, and Ishihara's part of Pokémon involvement moved there (which is why they own 1/3 of the franchise). Creatures originally helped (and still does) with development of Pokémon games and also managed it as a brand until ~1998 when the management branch split off into The Pokémon Company with Ishihara as president once again.

Fun fact: One of the unused default names for Red is "NINTEN", but this likely doesn't refer to the Beginnings character, but the actual Nintendo, since Blue's respective unused name is "SONY". Which is even funnier when you think that Sony Music Japan (SCE's predecessor) was also a major Game Freak publisher at the time. :p

Also: Satoshi Tajiri's review of EarthBound Beginnings, circa 1989

Never saw these before! Thanks, I feel like I profited from this thread now.

I agree with Tajiri on the hints and the map. EarthBound Beginnings unfortunately still very much had the early Famicom RPG problem where you rarely had any firm idea of how to proceed, so you just wandered around in hope of finding the place you were actually supposed to be in. Never through about the enemy appearances matching to strength though. Maybe it would be an easier problem to notice if the game wasn't such a grind.

Trying to think about how he applied this to his own games Pokémon is definitely more railroaded than Beginnings, but perhaps less so than EarthBound due to the area around Saffron City. And the games do tend to start off with weak enemies that make their weakness apparent by looking like mostly normal wildlife.

I feel like he weighted characters who give you useful information a bit too much though. Pokémon could use more characters who exist just to tell puns.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
This all seems very obvious to me. The two development teams shared a lot of people so obviously there are a lot of common themes and ideas. It's like the connection between the Chrono series and Xenogears.
 

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464
-There are Pokemon introduced in Black/White that are the same as enemies in Mother 3 (the mole and the sword)

-N's Theme's intro is directly ripped from the Mother 3 Love Theme.

- Also Sudowoodo is based on an old enemy from Mother 1, a tree creature called Woodoh.

-EarthBound did bikes you can hire and an expansive overworld in a modern setting before Pokemon.

- In EarthBound and Mother 1 the screen flashes on the overworld when a character is poisoned, before Pokemon did it

- You can hatch eggs by walking around in EarthBound and Mother 1, before Pokemon

- Flash is a move in both series, being a psychic ability in EarthBound.

- The Japanese version of EarthBound, Mother 2, had the subtitle 'Giygas Strikes Back', because he was the final boss of both games and probably due to a Star Wars reference. The first Pokemon movie's subtitle was 'Mewtwo Strikes Back'- considering the Giygas/Mewtwo similarities this was most likely an EarthBound reference.

- Oh, and the route nearest Lavaridge town in Emerald's theme is directly based off of Snowman's theme from Mother 1. On the route it 'snows' ash- Snowman is the cold, snowy, winter area in Mother 1.


To add one:

-In Mother 2 you can visit the Ape Inc. Headquarters, in every pokemon game you can visit the Game Freak's headquarters.
 

Zalman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,896
There's a very clear connection between the two franchises. Most of it comes from Ape/Creatures as ashm already stated.

It's not much, but Miyamoto briefly touches upon this in this video:



Basically, one of the reasons why Red and Green took so long to develop was that they were working on EarthBound as well.
 
OP
OP
L Thammy

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,094
There's a very clear connection between the two franchises. Most of it comes from Ape/Creatures as ashm already stated.

It's not much, but Miyamoto briefly touches upon this in this video:



Basically, one of the reasons why Red and Green took so long to develop was that they were working on EarthBound as well.


Thanks for this. I also appreciate that Miyamoto tried do the interview wearing Ness' shirt but he didn't quite get it right.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,156
Great thread, Thammy. I find the similarity in idyllic modern worlds to be especially striking.
 

antitrop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,627
Also Pokémon and Earthbound were two games that had bicycles as similar accessories.
 

ERAsaur

Member
Oct 25, 2017
751
Some of the unused items in Gen 1 (which were never translated) also came from Earthbound. While some of them are early badges, there's also "Egg" and "Chick". There's no functionality so it's unknown if they were early breeding mechanics or just copied over conceptually.
 

Kangi

Profile Styler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,950
I've been questioned in the past for bringing up the Mewtwo/Giegue thing; not enough people know about the connection the two series have. Great thread.
 

Nocchi

Member
Oct 30, 2017
364
When I first played Pokémon Red, I was already a fan of the original EarthBound. I always felt there were similarities between the two, but couldn't quite put my finger on what they were. I knew they were related through Nintendo, but that was it.
 

EAD Ninja

任天堂 の 忍者
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,347
It doesn't seem like APE had much any employees outside of Itoi during the development of Mother. Nintendo provided the brunt of the development staff themselves, including some contract employees they listed under their own "Nintendo Tokyo Products R&D" banner.

It was the original Sora and Sakurai situation.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,972
There are actually literal references to Earthbound in Lavender Town in Red and Blue

The Giegue / Mewtwo connection is pretty interesting because that tiny sprite is the only art of Giegue we have. A lot of fan depictions of him therefore tend to go in reverse and be based off of Mewtwo's design.



This is always weird to me. It might be just that that it doesn't come through in the limited art style, but despite originally being literally set in Japan, the Kanto region feels like one of the least japanese regions. The series's japanese roots are more obvious in Unova and Alola than they are in Kanto.
Unovai s New York with seasonal aesthetics
 

Deleted member 15457

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
907
Similarities I noticed that haven't been mentioned yet:

In both settings, the world is full of crazy people that make inane comments (the air is tasty here!), attack on sight, or both.

The narrator/menu dialogue has this vibe like they want to give you a hug and be your best buddy as you set off on this great journey.

You can look in trash cans but they never have anything.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,731
These games really worked for me because they didn't take themselves as seriously as Final Fantasy or most of the other rpgs of the time (though pokemon is slowly becoming more typical melodramatic rpg plot these days)

You can look in trash cans but they never have anything.

In Earthbound? You can get hamburgers in the trashcans. Undertale, which has some clear inspiration from Earthbound also had digging around in trashcans at one point.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
L Thammy

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,094
These games really worked for me because they didn't take themselves as seriously as Final Fantasy or most of the other rpgs of the time (though pokemon is slowly becoming more typical melodramatic rpg plot these days)

I once posted a thread about that on the old board and people made fun of me for it. :P

I sympathize with that. Part of what made Pokémon unique was that it wasn't about someone setting out to save the world, it was about a sport. Even the marching band music lends to that. Red never really sets out to defeat Team Rocket, but Team Rocket nonsense gets in his way, so he has to crush them. There's not much of a sense of urgency most of the time because the central mission is not time-sensitive. The Champion's still out there even if you goof off for a bit.

Then you had Black and White, where the hero skips out on the championship match to go save the world. It fits with Black/White's effort to switch things up, but at the same time, it's less unique to Pokémon. Plus, the gradual increase of the scope of the enemies since Team Rocket - who was really just the mob, which fits in with the game feeling more contemporary than other RPGs.

This may just be me being in overthinking mode, but I think that the player character in Pokémon is probably more similar to the player in motive than other RPGs. It makes sense that a Pokémon Trainer would be mostly interested in exploring in search of new Pokémon to catch, or in trying to assemble their team for tackling the next gym or whatever.

This links up with Neiteio's point:

I find the similarity in idyllic modern worlds to be especially striking.

In both EarthBound and Pokémon, there's harmful stuff out there, but the most world is either unaware or has little reason to be too concerned. The worlds are both full mostly with normal people living normal lives.

I'd say that "idyllic" describes EarthBound a little less in that it's more honest. There are some rude people and jerks in EarthBound, but they're just the rude people and jerks you'd naturally expect to meet. For instance, there's a guy driving a convertible in Summers who complains that you're leaving fingerprints on his car if you try to talk to him, but it's the sort of person you'd expect to meet in that place.

A friend of mine once randomly told me how he thought it would be awesome to live in the Pokémon universe, and I think that fantasy is appealing because there's no real compromise involved. If you're, say, a journalist or a systems administrator or something, you can easily imagine being teleported into the Pokémon universe and being able to get the exact same job, except you've got your Pokémon helping you do it. And if you don't like your job, you can go adventuring instead; that's a normal and perfectly viable choice.

So they're both rooted in the contemporary setting, but I think Pokemon's a bit more saccharine. Until you start reading Ghost Pokédex entries, anyway.
 

Slamtastic

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,485
Part of what made Pokémon unique was that it wasn't about someone setting out to save the world, it was about a sport. Even the marching band music lends to that. Red never really sets out to defeat Team Rocket, but Team Rocket nonsense gets in his way, so he has to crush them. There's not much of a sense of urgency most of the time because the central mission is not time-sensitive. The Champion's still out there even if you goof off for a bit.

Which was lost to the series for the worse when every game since the GBA had to have you fight and capture a box legendary god of time/space/life/death that the evil team is after, to use to rule or eradicate humanity.
 

WPS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
365
Unovai s New York with seasonal aesthetics

That's kind of my point, really. Unova as a region is based off one of America's most well known places, but it has a yin-yang theme and includes, among other things, a traditional japanese shrine.

Meanwhile, there are things in Kanto and Gen 1 that have their roots in japanese culture, but they're not as obvious as the things that turn up the other games. Certainly none of the cities feel japanese, even the ones which are where Tokyo is in real!Kanto.

Edit: Except for Lavender Tower, I guess.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
L Thammy

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,094
Which was lost to the series for the worse when every game since the GBA had to have you fight and capture a box legendary god of time/space/life/death that the evil team is after, to use to rule or eradicate humanity.

I think that's the start of the shift, but it didn't really complete until Black/White. But it's been a while since I played Ruby/Sapphire or Diamond/Pearl. The way I recall Diamond and Pearl going, you still basically just kick Cyrus' ass because you bumped into him when hiking through the mountains.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,721
Both games (R/B/Y and Earthbound/Mother 1) also probably share some engine code as well; since both games use the same kind of open world streaming engine (something very uncommon for 2D RPGs back in the day, that these games don't get a lot of credit for pulling off either!) and share a lot of the same programmers, by virtue of the APE/Creatures connection.
 
Last edited:

BGBW

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,281
The link is the GameBoy Camera which featured Pokémon stamps and Earthbound music.