Hey you're the one who invented a problem that didn't exist and then whined about it. They were just helping you get over it.
Hey you're the one who invented a problem that didn't exist and then whined about it. They were just helping you get over it.
Out of interest, do you think it's possible for people to debate what exactly a game is "saying"? Or do you just go around telling people what every game is saying?Hey you're the one who invented a problem that didn't exist and then whined about it. They were just helping you get over it.
Well, coming in a thread and saying your games have nothing to say while giving no examples, it's hard to have a debate. The lack of discussion is on you.Out of interest, do you think it's possible for people to debate what exactly a game is "saying"? Or do you just go around telling people what every game is saying?
So you don't know what they're saying, but gosh darn it you know they're saying something. Something overtly political.Well, coming in a thread and saying your games have nothing to say while giving no examples, it's hard to have a debate. The lack of discussion is on you.
Ah, now it's only overtly political.So you don't know what they're saying, but gosh darn it you know they're saying something. Something overtly political.
If you want to say "I accept that many games aren't overtly political and can easily be talked about without any political focus", that's okay.
Lol I'm sure you know what that means.Ah, now it's only overtly political.
What are examples of "overtly political"?
I don't mind that you're moving goal posts, but some examples would be nice for your wanted discussion.
Again, you know what an overtly political game is (papers please) versus a game that's not overtly political. Now, there's a reason I've bolded that word, I'll get onto that in a sec. Let's first establish that yes, every human action on this planet is political in some essence, as is the very nature of our existence. Lack of statement is still a statement, etc etc. So, every game, book, movie, piece of art, whatever, is political in that it's a product of a human or humans. Why then is the word "overtly" in bold? Because there's a distinction between something with politics at the core of it's being, and something without. If that's not a distinction you can see, I don't know what to tell you my dude.I don't mind that you're moving goal posts, but some examples would be nice for your wanted discussion.
Please specify what an "overtly political" statement is.
Yeah because that makes perfectly logical sense. So you'll just assume the poster below is a GGer?From this point forward in the thread, if people say they don't want politics in games/games coverage and they refuse to specify what kind of politics they're referring to, and I mean a bullet point by bullet point list, I'm just going to assume they are gamergaters scurrying back and forth between here and r/KIA. No one has given me a legit answer yet.
If they don't want to specify, it's because they know actually specifying would reveal their shitty beliefs.
Like I said before: If you want just a bullet point of "game facts" then sure, go for it. Enjoy your super sanitized "news" that not even press releases contain. To separate story and gameplay is a fool's errand and at that point you may as well just get a cookie-cutter form response ready for genres such as "FPS game," or "RPG game" if that's how you want to completely boil it down and ignore everything else.It's funny that Far Cry 5 is the game you used as an example earlier.
The Far Cry series is an almost perfect example of how easy it can be to completely strip away all context, story and presentation and still have completely functional game mechanics underneath.
Far Cry is a series which has managed to use largely the same mechanics with settings ranging from bounty hunters in Africa to cops shooting religious cultists in the US to prehistoric spear-wielding cave men to robot dinosaurs which shoot laser beams.
If those game mechanics can work in such a wide variety of settings and contexts they must be fairly apolitical. Which means they can be discussed without involving politics.
Let's take Wolfenstein as another example, a game which based on the posts in this thread cannot be discussed at all without involving politics.
Now let's imagine for a moment that someone nodded the game to replace all the Nazis with teddy bears, the weapons shoot bubbles and the levels look like My Little Pony land. Now clearly this modded version has a very different political message to before.
However, it still plays exactly the same. You run around shooting teddy bears (Nazis), you sneak around killing boss bears (commanders) and you search the levels looking for bubbles (ammo pickups).
Even for some of the most politically charged games you can strip away all the context and politics and be left with a game which will play in exactly the same way. Therefore you can discuss that gameplay without involving politics.
Yes they do! Aesthetic plays a big part in motivation for a player to keep playing. Aesthetic is part of the reward loop, same reason why advertising works or why certain UI or fonts or graphic styles are used otherwise everything would have the same aesthetic. If Fortnite was devoid of all the colours and cartoon aesthetic and satisfying audio visual feedback and UI, people would spend less hours on it. Wouldn't be Fortnite anymore. It's not so easy to divorce these aspects in discussion.It's not a frivolous argument at all.
The success of a game is also directly related to how fun it is to play. People don't play Fortnite for hundreds of hours because of it's cute aesthetics.
Why should video game analysis only focus on the aesthetics and story? Why is analysis of gameplay not meaningful?
There's like a full page of discussion where I've covered all that.Like I said before: If you want just a bullet point of "game facts" then sure, go for it. Enjoy your super sanitized "news" that not even press releases contain. To separate story and gameplay is a fool's errand and at that point you may as well just get a cookie-cutter form response ready for genres such as "FPS game," or "RPG game" if that's how you want to completely boil it down and ignore everything else.
The rest of us will be here in the real world.
Yes they do! Aesthetic plays a big part in motivation for a player to keep playing. Aesthetic is part of the reward loop, same reason why advertising works or why certain UI or fonts or graphic styles are used otherwise everything would have the same aesthetic. If Fortnite was devoid of all the colours and cartoon aesthetic and satisfying audio visual feedback and UI, people would spend less hours on it. Wouldn't be Fortnite anymore. It's not so easy to divorce these aspects in discussion.
"Why should video game analysis only focus on the aesthetics and story? Why is analysis of gameplay not meaningful?"
This is more down to which critics imo rather than a working generalisation. Some critics focus on certain aspects more. Some focus on the interplay of all the systems, aesthetics, and mechanics.
here is a good video on it. it's a reaction to the naughty dog's agenda video
That's a really great way to summarize it.To make it explicit, shooting Nazis is satisfying, shooting a Big Daddy is stressful, shooting little children is disturbing, and shooting robots is "eh". This is literally why we have so many different FPS titles that all barely change mechanically, but change massively in their presentation.
What are you doing.Again, you know what an overtly political game is (papers please) versus a game that's not overtly political. Now, there's a reason I've bolded that word, I'll get onto that in a sec. Let's first establish that yes, every human action on this planet is political in some essence, as is the very nature of our existence. Lack of statement is still a statement, etc etc. So, every game, book, movie, piece of art, whatever, is political in that it's a product of a human or humans. Why then is the word "overtly" in bold? Because there's a distinction between something with politics at the core of it's being, and something without. If that's not a distinction you can see, I don't know what to tell you my dude.
What are you doing?
Replica soldiers most satisfying enemies of all time though yo (f.e.a.r)
From this point forward in the thread, if people say they don't want politics in games/games coverage and they refuse to specify what kind of politics they're referring to, and I mean a bullet point by bullet point list, I'm just going to assume they are gamergaters scurrying back and forth between here and r/KIA. No one has given me a legit answer yet.
Just wondering what your end game is, here.
To suggest there's a difference between a game that's overtly political and one that isn't, I guess? In general, I think people can agree that all human expression is political by nature of being human expression, but I think what a lot of "are all games political" discussion comes down to is difference between games that have a clear, open political statement or theme to convey, versus ones that don't. If there's no discernible difference to you between something like papers please and something like centipede, then I guess you do you, muchacho.
Why is it anybody that doesn't want politicized games automatically a shitty person to you? You're acting like a child. I don't play games because they are high art. I primarily play grindy MMOs and loot games because I want to click a mouse and watch numbers go up. Games I play aren't making a statement OR if they are, I'm not gleaning one from them. I don't play games like Last of Us or Wolfenstein because I couldn't give less of an eff about a game that prioritizes its storytelling over gameplay and that are also finite. I like games that I can dive into and lose hundreds of hours to because gaming is my way to pass time. It's not a medium I use to engage with messages. If I want to do that I will read a book or article, or watch a movie. I guess throw me in the pile with the GGers then?If they don't want to specify, it's because they know actually specifying would reveal their shitty beliefs.
I mean those are all valid topics to cover if you're reporting on games, but not every outlet is required to cover them. To the best of my knowledge, Giant Bomb hasn't written articles on any of those subjects, for example. It's not like what Escapist is doing here is some new, sinister take on games coverage. It's already being done by other sites. They just made the mistake of dropping a line about it in their mission statement and people assume it's basically just going to be a website of Nazis. Lotta knee jerking going on here with people expecting the worst.The other day I visited a games website and they had an article about working conditions on the industry, an editorial about themes in a David Cage game and one about censorship. How dare they! The whole site is RUINED and now I cannot read it. /s
I mean those are all valid topics to cover if you're reporting on games, but not every outlet is required to cover them. To the best of my knowledge, Giant Bomb hasn't written articles on any of those subjects, for example. It's not like what Escapist is doing here is some new, sinister take on games coverage. It's already being done by other sites. They just made the mistake of dropping a line about it in their mission statement and people assume it's basically just going to be a website of Nazis. Lotta knee jerking going on here with people expecting the worst.
Where? They talk about stuff like that on the podcasts usually in the context of someone on the staff having played the game in question, but GB doesn't do a lot of written articles, so I dunno what you could be thinking about. At any rate, they're hardly making it a focus of their website. They don't write big think pieces on those subjects the way a place like Waypoint or Polygon does. Politicizing games coverage isn't an all or nothing affair. You can cover it to many degrees and not have it be a part of your site's identity. That's all I'm saying.Giantbomb has covered all these topics either trough their site, editorial or podcasts.
first of all, i'm not american. So yeah. I'm here just for the games. As short as that may sound.
They're not automatically a shitty person unless they refuse to tell me what specific politics they don't want in their games and games coverage. I thought I made that clear.Why is it anybody that doesn't want politicized games automatically a shitty person to you?
Why is it anybody that doesn't want politicized games automatically a shitty person to you? You're acting like a child.
Heh. MMOs aren't making a statement. You sweet summer child.Why is it anybody that doesn't want politicized games automatically a shitty person to you? You're acting like a child. I don't play games because they are high art. I primarily play grindy MMOs and loot games because I want to click a mouse and watch numbers go up. Games I play aren't making a statement OR if they are, I'm not gleaning one from them. I don't play games like Last of Us or Wolfenstein because I couldn't give less of an eff about a game that prioritizes its storytelling over gameplay and that are also finite. I like games that I can dive into and lose hundreds of hours to because gaming is my way to pass time. It's not a medium I use to engage with messages. If I want to do that I will read a book or article, or watch a movie. I guess throw me in the pile with the GGers then?
Thinking face emoji.To suggest there's a difference between a game that's overtly political and one that isn't, I guess? In general, I think people can agree that all human expression is political by nature of being human expression, but I think what a lot of "are all games political" discussion comes down to is difference between games that have a clear, open political statement or theme to convey, versus ones that don't. If there's no discernible difference to you between something like papers please and something like centipede, then I guess you do you, muchacho.
Nope: http://m.ign.com/articles/2018/06/26/lgbtq-inclusive-games-that-will-steal-your-heartI think it would be impossible to avoid politics completely if your going to be a gaming website. But, If we were to create a scale based on current sites with Waypoint on one end, what would be the other? IGN?
Where? They talk about stuff like that on the podcasts usually in the context of someone on the staff having played the game in question, but GB doesn't do a lot of written articles, so I dunno what you could be thinking about. At any rate, they're hardly making it a focus of their website. They don't write big think pieces on those subjects the way a place like Waypoint or Polygon does. Politicizing games coverage isn't an all or nothing affair. You can cover it to many degrees and not have it be a part of your site's identity. That's all I'm saying.
Vinny: Let me ask you this....This game seems to be truckin some metaphor...allegory to what is the relationship between the human population and the android, I'm sure there is some "they are taking our jobs"--
Alex: Oh yeah. And to be clear, that is the only that is happening in human society at this point. They specifically say "Oh yeah, unemployement is up like 35%, it's wild" and they never really address the fact that human society kind of went ahead with the idea of full automation before they figured out what to do with people.
Vinny: So the rich are getting richer off android labor...
Alex: No, that's the thing. There is no real class metaphor for this stuff it's just people are mad at androids because they took all the jobs
...
Alex: ...androids are forced to sit at the back of the bus because--
Abby: UGH.
Yup. Jeff and Co has literally commented on every gaming controversy since the Bombcast's inception. Also Dream Daddy from GOTY and supporting it is pretty political to me just saying...Giantbomb has created literally thousands of hours of content, so I'm not going to post here everything, so here is something to start:
Giant Bomb asked Cory Barlog about recent Labor Issue debate in video game industry
Guest Contributor Ian Williams makes the case for why we need to care about labor conditions in the game industry as much as we care about the games we love.
The fuck? Firstly, I've already mentioned a game, by name, which I think is a great example of a game with a clear political thematic element. There's absolutely nothing wrong with games like this, and some of the best games of all time have been games like this- ones that, dare I say, are "trying to say something". The only thing I'm doing is making the distinction between games like that (in my case I mentioned papers please) and games unlike it. Yes, I make a distinction between something like her story, and something like centipede. No, I don't think centipede is a politics-free game, as I've stated multiple times already: every expression or even lack of expression is inherently political. Yes, making a game and "saying nothing" is still saying something, but one last time, I do believe there's a difference between something like gone home and something like excite bike. In much the same way, there are movies with prominent political messages (like one of my favourite movies, Dallas Buyers Club, or Wall-E) and films like Napoleon Dynamite. Now, one more time, I'm not saying Napoleon Dynamite is devoid of political worth - and I'm sure there's some interesting discussion about where that worth lies, but between that and say Selma, I'd personally dub Selma the more "political" film. I think some games are fantastic for their politics (papers please) and some games are great for reasons I would deem non political (bubble bobble*).Typical, a supporter of a GG website that supports GG talking points about ~politicized games~ doesn't want to actually say what "politicized" means. Curious indeed, and not at all transparent.
Your second line is why people assume (likely rightfully) that people that don't want """"politicized"""" games are likely terrible people.
Especially when you are doing this to defend a website that has already been strongly supporting GG.
And especially when "politicizing games coverage" actually just means saying "This game has homophobic elements" or "this game has a queer character" or "the review is written by a gay person".
You people keep trying to desperately ignore the elephant in the room, which is that the existance of people like me in this industry is politicized. The only way for a website to be "apolitical" is to avoid having queer staff, avoid ever mentioning anything even remotely related to queer characters, and effectively pretend we don't exist. We see this over and over, with angry gamers shrieking at even *analyzing code* that relates to queer characters. Even if the analysis only describes the code in its objective effect. This is what you're fighting for.
Giantbomb discusses most of the industry news and politics in podcasts, E3 shows, and used to be editorials and news reports back when Austin Walker and Patrick Klepek were writers.Where? They talk about stuff like that on the podcasts usually in the context of someone on the staff having played the game in question, but GB doesn't do a lot of written articles, so I dunno what you could be thinking about. At any rate, they're hardly making it a focus of their website. They don't write big think pieces on those subjects the way a place like Waypoint or Polygon does. Politicizing games coverage isn't an all or nothing affair. You can cover it to many degrees and not have it be a part of your site's identity. That's all I'm saying.
Did Giant Bomb also openly support GamerGate and signal-boost some of its biggest proponents?I mean those are all valid topics to cover if you're reporting on games, but not every outlet is required to cover them. To the best of my knowledge, Giant Bomb hasn't written articles on any of those subjects, for example. It's not like what Escapist is doing here is some new, sinister take on games coverage. It's already being done by other sites. They just made the mistake of dropping a line about it in their mission statement and people assume it's basically just going to be a website of Nazis. Lotta knee jerking going on here with people expecting the worst.
Well this is no fair. Pretty sure you just gave everyone playing a Bingo.Sites like Polygon and Waypoint produce these political articles to create drama and clickbait and are far from constructive. For example "toxic masculinity" is a common subject however the behavior in question is by a bunch of fucking dorks and trolls on the internet. Far from masculine. And all these articles do is provide ammunition for these people and they actual create a whole industry. There are people getting patreon money / youtube views making fun of this stuff. If the ridiculous articles did not exist, the trolls would have nothing, but Polygon wouldn't have their clicks.
Nobody gives a shit about this stuff in the real world. It is all fake drama on the internet. Most people just want to work, have fun, get laid etc. Gaming is a past time. There is a market for normal people who just want to play games and read about such games and don't give a fuck about dorks, trolls and whiny drama.
Of course, I'm not saying aesthetics don't matter, I'm saying they're not the primary driving force for why people play Fortnite or CS or Halo etc.
Are you from Russia?Sites like Polygon and Waypoint produce these political articles to create drama and clickbait and are far from constructive. For example "toxic masculinity" is a common subject however the behavior in question is by a bunch of fucking dorks and trolls on the internet. Far from masculine. And all these articles do is provide ammunition for these people and they actual create a whole industry. There are people getting patreon money / youtube views making fun of this stuff. If the ridiculous articles did not exist, the trolls would have nothing, but Polygon wouldn't have their clicks.
Nobody gives a shit about this stuff in the real world. It is all fake drama on the internet. Most people just want to work, have fun, get laid etc. Gaming is a past time. There is a market for normal people who just want to play games and read about such games and don't give a fuck about dorks, trolls and whiny drama.