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galv

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,048
When a gay Londoner and his partner had a child they knew they were likely to experience homophobia. What they were not ready for was sexism. But, as Matthew Jenkin explains here, when he goes out in public with his daughter it's an everyday occurrence.
I tried to keep calm and carry on, hoping Carla would settle once the class began. I joined the circle of mums with their serenely happy infants for the opening baby massage and song section, but my girl only grew more distressed. Halfway through You are my sunshine, Carla's hysterics crescendoed and then it happened. I was a dad in a sea of mums struggling to soothe his child, so the group decided to come to the rescue. Instead of support, I was offered pity and condescension.
"Have you thought about changing her nappy?" suggested one mother. "Do you think she's hungry?"
And worst of all: "Perhaps I should hold the baby for you?"
It's hard to imagine a woman in the same situation being offered an idiot's guide to parenting or being asked to hand over her child to a total stranger. But I've faced this kind of everyday sexism time and time again. I was humiliated by a woman who, having seen me bottle-feeding Carla in public, physically showed me how to do it "properly" and chastised me for wearing clothes that might irritate the baby's delicate skin. Then there was the time I was scolded by another stranger for supposedly standing too close to the kerb with the buggy. A car might swerve up on to the pavement and kill the baby, apparently.
The lack of specific gender roles is confusing for some. Mothers I've met have asked if I am somehow the "mummy" - assuming my role as the primary carer conforms to the traditional gender stereotype of a mother. I am "daddy" and my husband is "papa" - we haven't set any ground rules other than to love and care for our daughter come what may.
Our most shocking experience was during lunch at a restaurant. We had just sat down at the table when suddenly Carla woke abruptly from her nap, crying. We were trying our best to soothe her when the waitress approached.
"Two men cannot look after a baby. Next time bring a woman," she scolded us.
I was quick to correct her, but we left in a hurry, angry and embarrassed. My initial reaction to the incident was that this was homophobia, but the comment was equally sexist. As I discovered, the everyday sexism of the parenting world was far more demoralising and commonplace than anti-gay sentiment.
The names of many activities suitable for infants are usually targeted at mothers only, when in reality a father could easily join in if he wished. "Mum and yoga", "Mum and baby salsa", "Mum and me ballet", "Mum and baby crawler" - the list goes on. Groups for fathers were scheduled for the weekend only.
I am not for one minute claiming men are somehow the great oppressed. In many ways it is the patriarchal society that we have created coming back to bite us. Changes to employment law which allow parents to share parental leave are enabling more men to enjoy those joyous (and tough) first few months bonding with their child. But we need to recognise that the culture surrounding parenting also needs to change to encourage more fathers to take the plunge - gay or straight.

More at link here:
https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-44718727

And here's a cute picture of the couple and their daughter:

_102383645_976xcutegrin.jpg
 

Broken Joystick

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,932
England
Our most shocking experience was during lunch at a restaurant. We had just sat down at the table when suddenly Carla woke abruptly from her nap, crying. We were trying our best to soothe her when the waitress approached.
"Two men cannot look after a baby. Next time bring a woman," she scolded us.

Manager: "How come those two people that sat down left so quickly?"
Waitress: "Apologies, I was just being extremely sexist and homophobic"
Manager: "oh ok"
 

Clay

Member
Oct 29, 2017
8,107
It's always people whose parents failed them who feel comfortable publicly judging others' parenting.
 

Tobor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,419
Richmond, VA
This absolutely sucks, but from what I've seen it will lessen over time as the kid gets older. I've never heard a peep from strangers while watching my nieces and nephews alone.

Babies tend to make people act stupid. Everyone has a stupid opinion and is vocal about them.
 

cebri

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
221
Wow, i have a friend who is a single dad and has faced almost identical problems to the one this couple is facing. Not only public recrimination in the sort of "where is the mother?" but to actually not being accepted to a baby care class because he was a man.
 

Zelas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,020
Some of the cultural and societal factors that lead to sexism and homophobia come from exactly the same place.
 

Power Shot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
674
Thanks kindly for this thread. I'm a dad, married to a woman, and the nonsense I'll have to deal with when I'm out and about with my son is ridiculous. Like, basic stuff. Changing tables in men's rooms are almost nonexistent, and are almost always poorly maintained.

The worst, though? When people ask me if I'm babysitting. I get angry almost immediately.
 

dreams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,793
To be fair, moms can just be really brutal to each other in general. The yoga story would have absolutely happened to a woman as well. The "mommy forum" culture is incredibly toxic sometimes, to the point where there is now somewhat a movement to stop criticizing people's parenting style if they aren't straight up harming their kids.

Although I want to point out that sexism towards fathers is definitely a thing. I'm glad that he points out himself that it is also a symptom of patriarchy. This is why parenting needs to be seen as a BOTH PARTIES situation, instead of just "mom takes care of the kids and dad shits around" as it currently is.
 
Oct 27, 2017
15,015
I don't have any examples like this but as a dad who tries to do a fair few activities with my kids I find it annoying how singing groups or playgroups are always called mum & baby or a similar variant.

Manager: "How come those two people that sat down left so quickly?"
Waitress: "Apologies, I was just being extremely sexist and homophobic"
Manager: "oh ok"

Yeah, I appreciate that they probably felt angry and awkward and wanted to leave ASAP, but if that was me I would have to complain to the manager before leaving. Disgusting comment.
 

shaneo632

Weekend Planner
Member
Oct 29, 2017
28,983
Wrexham, Wales
Yeah the not-so-subtle societal sneer at stay-at-home dads is shitty and needs to be a thing of the past. I don't want kids but if I ever did I would probably take this role as I work from home anyway and could still do at least 50% of my current work while looking after the baby.
 

Ratrat

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,867
It could be a form of homophobia too. People like to argue against it because they choos to believe that children need a traditional mom and dad.
 

ShapeDePapa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,936
Wow. Glad that something like that never happened to me. I'm not sure I could think of a polite response.
 

Jellycrackers

Member
Oct 25, 2017
582
I remember my wife and I listening to audiobook about parenting one day back when she was pregnant. There was a chapter about "Baby and daddy" and it was all about how to get your dumb husband the most basic and stupid parenting help and it assumed all dads will basically barely be involved. That pissed us off so much. I HATE that stereotype. Mom stays at home with baby, dad goes to work then comes home and watches football on the recliner and drinks beer.

Right now our daughter is 1 year old, my wife works full time, and I work freelance from home so I have the kid during the day. We go out in public a lot and I haven't had anything near as bad happen to me (probably because I'm straight) but I'm always the only dad at little baby/toddler events.

I do remember an older lady at my wife's last job looking really confused at the idea of my wife taking a new full time job where she couldn't stay home with the baby.
 

Deleted member 9241

Oct 26, 2017
10,416
My wife had to go on a 2 week trip for work when my girls were ages 1&2. All my female co-workers were like "Who is going to take care of your kids?!?". I am, bitches. It's not hard for christs sake. Just because your husband couldn't handle it or wouldn't even try doesn't mean all men are incompetent when it coes to the hands on raising of their children.

I'm a dude that is involved in every aspect of raising my girls. Women think I'm super dad, which is kind if sad to me because I'm just doing what should be the norm. There are too many part time or no time dads out there.
 

BriGuy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,275
My friend had the cops called on him for being "a strange man watching kids" at the playground. When the police showed up, they tried to pull him aside for questioning, but he refused to leave without first getting his daughter. Everything was sorted out in the end, but he said felt humiliated. He never got an apology either.
 

BadWolf

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,148
Terrible to hear and from what I've seen they can be pretty bad towards women as well.

An office co-worker became a mom recently and she talked about how her family and others were treating her like an idiot when she was caring for her baby. Criticism up the wazoo with zero care about how hurtful/inappropriate it is.
 
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Deleted member 9241

Oct 26, 2017
10,416
I'm always the only dad at little baby/toddler events.

It will be this way the entire time you raise them. "Mother's Tea" at my kid's Elementary school has virtually every mother attend. "Doughnuts with Dad" has maybe 1/10th the turn out. It's me and the same half dozen dads at every single event. Surely its no coincidence that our kids are the leaders in everything from academics to athletics. Where are the other dads?
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
My wife had to go on a 2 week trip for work when my girls were ages 1&2. All my female co-workers were like "Who is going to take care of your kids?!?". I am, bitches. It's not hard for christs sake. Just because your husband couldn't handle it or wouldn't even try doesn't mean all men are incompetent when it coes to the hands on raising of their children.

I'm a dude that is involved in every aspect of raising my girls. Women think I'm super dad, which is kind if sad to me because I'm just doing what should be the norm. There are too many part time or no time dads out there.
Yeah, my wife is a stay at home mom and I openly acknowledge that at best I do maybe 20-30% of the parenting and very little of the worst parts (really enforcing potty training for example). Yet what I do is viewed by her mom friends as me being some otherworldly level of father. Mind blowing how little some men engage with their children.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,237
My friend had the cops called on him for being "a strange man watching kids" at the playground. When the police showed up, they tried to pull him aside for questioning, but he refused to leave without first getting his daughter. Everything was sorted out in the end, but he said felt humiliated. He never got an apology either.
I was extremely aware of this when I used to take my nephews to the park.
 

Cochese

Banned
Nov 14, 2017
6,960
Stayed home for three years, and I remember a lot of that. Didn't really bother me, but yeah.
 
Oct 25, 2017
796
Honestly, even the attempted complements are usually in the same vein. I've taken the kids out to breakfast (wife works most weekends) and people can't quite believe it. Lots of "good for you" and the like. I'm not doing anything remarkable, just being a dad.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
That's a tautology. You can't have equality for just some people.

What? Feminism isn't "equality for just some people," it's a response to inequality and an attempt to fix that.

The point of feminism here, namely, is that men being ill-suited to take care of children is a toxic idea for men, absolutely, but it's also toxic in part because it invariably also is trying to communicate that women have a responsibility to be the caregivers. Hence, a society that doesn't think that women should be the caretaker in turn also doesn't think that men are ill-suited for the job.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,846
Some of this definitely seems rooted in him being a man; some of his experiences just sound like normal parenting to me (as highlighted in the comments), where everyone will provide an unsolicited opinion about X, and at the worst argue with you about doing something terrible. My sister-in-law complains about this constantly.

Damn at some of the anecdotes in that article though, especially the restaurant one. The fact so many groups and activities are women-centered is just more dumb othering and segregation that hurts proper socialization between sexes and disincentivizes men stepping up and being better fathers.

Honestly, even the attempted complements are usually in the same vein. I've taken the kids out to breakfast (wife works most weekends) and people can't quite believe it. Lots of "good for you" and the like. I'm not doing anything remarkable, just being a dad.

Yeah I know some people treat this stuff as examples of sexism where the man is applauded for doing typically 'feminine' stuff or getting kudos for doing comparatively less, but in my experience I've often seen it come across more as patronizing.

Women have an inborn advantage with bonding, but that's nothing compared to the daily grind of childrearing. It's not rocket science, it just takes effort.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,710
My friend had the cops called on him for being "a strange man watching kids" at the playground. When the police showed up, they tried to pull him aside for questioning, but he refused to leave without first getting his daughter. Everything was sorted out in the end, but he said felt humiliated. He never got an apology either.

Good thing cell phone cameras have been ubiquitous for a more than a decade. Not sure how you "prove" you're the father of a one year old. My wife never gave that a second thought.
 

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,104
Austria
My friend had the cops called on him for being "a strange man watching kids" at the playground. When the police showed up, they tried to pull him aside for questioning, but he refused to leave without first getting his daughter. Everything was sorted out in the end, but he said felt humiliated. He never got an apology either.
Men just aren't trusted in this regard, to a degree that I find sickening.
A highschool teacher I talked to who taught in a large kindergarten told me that in their team of 8 women and 2 men, it was forbidden for the two men to have a shift together.
A woman HAD to be present. The men were also not allowed to change the children's clothes or diapers.
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,991
Houston
Yeah the not-so-subtle societal sneer at stay-at-home dads is shitty and needs to be a thing of the past. I don't want kids but if I ever did I would probably take this role as I work from home anyway and could still do at least 50% of my current work while looking after the baby.
as a dad who works from home, and completely no offense intended, but no, you can't. Maybe the first month to 3 months when most babies all they do is eat sleep and poop. But after that it's really a full time job.



Anyway I live in Houston, and never experienced anything like that. I used to be out and about frequently with both kids. In fact I've experienced the opposite. I've gotten encouragement like your doing a great job, and it does get better.

But just tlike everything else people just need to mind their fucking business.


As a poster above said the mommy culture is getting ridiculous. A friend of ours the other day read us a post from her mommy group. Someone asked what do you like to do for date night? And someone responded that there's no better date night than staying home with her kids and husband and having dinner with them. We all eyerolled. Because this is the exact type of thing trying to guilt others into thinking they shouldn't do date nights or whatever bullshit.
I love my kids but goddamn I need some adult time occasionally.
 

kittens

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,237
I'm a gender non-binary nanny that is often read as a man, and I definitely see this stuff. It's always a little amazing and dehumanizing, definitely. I don't call it sexism, though. It's all rooted in patriarchy.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,971
Stayed home for three years, and I remember a lot of that. Didn't really bother me, but yeah.
Yeah I did it for 6. Ran into some of it but mostly good things, the Moms at the playground often went out of their to make me welcome in the beginning.

Getting back into the workforce though was brutal. I had a guy who was helping me with my resume tell me that employers would assume I was a felon with that gap in my resume. Luckily I was pretty active at the kids schools and went back to school and got a Masters. Even then it took a couple of years
 

Intraxidance

Member
Oct 25, 2017
950
My friend had the cops called on him for being "a strange man watching kids" at the playground. When the police showed up, they tried to pull him aside for questioning, but he refused to leave without first getting his daughter. Everything was sorted out in the end, but he said felt humiliated. He never got an apology either.

There is 13 year age gap between my brother and I, so I took care of him often and brought him to the park a lot when he was younger. I made sure to stay engaged with him while he was playing so I didn't come off as some random dude watching kids on the jungle gym for an hour. I did this after having a woman comment to me what I was doing there.
 

grendelrt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,586
I took my daughter to Dr appointment and when leaving was putting her in the car seat, the belt section at the bottom was twisted and of course she was squirming around as I was trying to fixing it, a lady walked up and asked me if I knew what I was doing if I needed her to do it for me. Ya, I said no just fixing this twisted belt thanks, but was pretty irritated.
 

RedNalgene

Member
Oct 25, 2017
963
Although I've never experienced what this couple has during my first 8 months of being a dad, I can say that most literature and classes are geared towards Mommy and Baby. It's very hard finding anything that's Daddy and Baby - I haven't seen one class termed that, and there is only one real book that's geared toward fathers and babies. It's frustrating having everything geared towards the mom but I just deal. I've never felt unwelcome at any class with my daughter, nor has anyone ever tried to "show me the right way" when she cried. But as others have said, there are shitty people everywhere so it's not surprising.
 

TSM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,821
As a man having done the majority of my two daughter's child care when they were small everyone just assumes you are completely incompetent where children are concerned. I helped care for my two younger sisters when they were tiny so my own kids were a piece of cake. People like to act like it's rocket science so they can pat themselves on the back and talk down to others. I just kept it moving when I ran into assholes like the ones in the article.
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,792
I've definitively experienced this too albeit not to the extreme of the people in the article. I get congratulated for just holding my son as if it's some amazing achievement.
 

atomsk eater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,828
Those people are real stupid, but I can't even be surprised. Childcare tends to be a subject where people feel the need to stick their noses in and drop some un-asked for "wisdom." Some of it may be rooted in people just trying to do someone a favor, but a lot of it is because of ingrained sexist attitudes about how innately competent women are at childcare vs. those dang bumbling men that don't know baby's bottom from his/her head. :( It's something I hope changes with time.

Also would have spoke to that waitresses' manager before leaving.

I've definitively experienced this too albeit not to the extreme of the people in the article. I get congratulated for just holding my son as if it's some amazing achievement.

I'm imaging a bunch of people gathered around, clapping and cheering while you hold your baby and look perturbed.
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,991
Houston
It will be this way the entire time you raise them. "Mother's Tea" at my kid's Elementary school has virtually every mother attend. "Doughnuts with Dad" has maybe 1/10th the turn out. It's me and the same half dozen dads at every single event. Surely its no coincidence that our kids are the leaders in everything from academics to athletics. Where are the other dads?
working.

While the norms are changing, men are still viewed as the bread winners. In fact there's been several threads about how dads get a raise after having a kid, where as moms end up making less after having kids.

But also since these norms haven't changed men are viewed negatively for having to leave work for kid related issues. Or they simply can't take the time off.

For sure there are dads that would rather not deal with their kids and think it's their mothers job. My brother in law is like this. Their super weird though I swear my wife's younger sister married him just for his money. Because he's pretty much useless otherwise.
 

Zing

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,771
I was the stay-at-home father for ten years. The only thing I can remember is when I took my daughter to her first haircut and the stylist was anxious to do it without the mother around.

Otherwise, I had no problem.
 

Landy828

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,395
Clemson, SC
"Stay at home dad" is my dream job. Wish I had the $$$ to be one.

I have full custody of my two daughters, but I also work 10 hour days :(. I'd love to put all that time into my little ones.

I was the stay-at-home father for ten years. The only thing I can remember is when I took my daughter to her first haircut and the stylist was anxious to do it without the mother around.

Otherwise, I had no problem.

I couldn't think of any problems doing things with my girls till I saw this. Had the same experience with my youngest. Explained to the lady that her mother didn't have a say in it.