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"The everyday sexism I face as a stay-at-home dad" - Matthew Jenkin, father, explains
- Thread starter galv
- Start date
While I think we should be cautious approaching this subject as the sexism between the two binary genders is very different and can amount to "whatabsoutisms", it's very true that stereotypical gender roles can be toxic too.
Yup... In any case if one really need to use the term, I would still call it Mansplaining rather than Momsplaining. It's a problem rooted in patriarchy.
Been a stay-at-home Dad with both my boys. Never had the really blatant things happen. It was mostly when they were newborns that I would catch a hint of bias. Lots of "where's Mom?" type stuff. But then, when they are that young Mom tends to be there, so I can understand. Both were preemies so it was a bit complicated.
The biggest issues had far less to do with other people, but my Wife and I ourselves. Both of us having a strong "traditional" style upbringing, made it difficult at first. Basically I was biased against myself. Took a little while to adjust to that, but we did.
I honestly can't imagine people coming up to mean and saying that shit, but I don't have the most approachable demeanor.
The biggest issues had far less to do with other people, but my Wife and I ourselves. Both of us having a strong "traditional" style upbringing, made it difficult at first. Basically I was biased against myself. Took a little while to adjust to that, but we did.
I honestly can't imagine people coming up to mean and saying that shit, but I don't have the most approachable demeanor.
Anecdotally, I experience this when I'm out with kids vs my wife. People are always helping to hold doors, at the grocery store people have offered to help unload and return my cart, things like that. My wife gets none of that. I always assumed it's because people think I'm a dumb dad. No fucks given, my 18 month old is heavy.
Now, if someone said some of that shit to me, it be a different story. My daughters have always hated the "dumb dad" trope. They can't stand the Berenstein Bears because of it.
Now, if someone said some of that shit to me, it be a different story. My daughters have always hated the "dumb dad" trope. They can't stand the Berenstein Bears because of it.
User Banned (Permanent): Peddling misogynistic narratives + downplaying the existence of sexism, account still in the junior phase
I guess we just have different standards for what constitutes a "thing". I think mansplaining and womansplaining are "things" whereas institutional sexism and patriarchy are not.
I was a "Manny" for my friend's two-year-old for like four months last year. I never got comments like this, thankfully. Mostly people just assumed I was her dad and gave me the "toddlers am I right" look when she did something crazy or obnoxious.
Yet it's a point most anti-feminists fail to understand time and time again.
This seems to be a big problem. I read an article a few days ago about stay at home husbands/dads in Germany and they face a lot of every day sexism from women and men alike. It is sad.
I have had a few comments directed at me and my kids that just makes me grit my teeth and move on.
I also once was feeling my newborn and an older man came up to me and told me that when he had his kids he refused to feed or change them, and now he really regrets that. And he is very happy to see fathers more comfortable in those roles. I thought it was nice.
I also once was feeling my newborn and an older man came up to me and told me that when he had his kids he refused to feed or change them, and now he really regrets that. And he is very happy to see fathers more comfortable in those roles. I thought it was nice.
I think it's partly that some fail to understand it, but a large portion is often driven by the fact that they benefit from inequalities inherent in society and only pretend not to get it. Willful ignorance is used as a tool and doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt.
I've been a stay-at-home dad for about a year and a half now. I haven't seen a whole lot of discrimination or judgement, to be perfectly honest. I take my kids to the park and sometimes the moms there are very quiet and keep to themselves, sometimes they're very talkative and we get along fine. I think it gets a little to easy to pick apart negative experiences as somehow "sexist" against full-time male caregivers.
Not sure why the need to feel victimized here. To be brutally honest, the biggest takeaway for me as a stay-at-home dad is how long women have been absolutely ignored and unappreciated for doing very hard and dedicated work. It is not easy to raise small kids, and women have been doing it for centuries, because it's "woman's work". Now men are doing it, they get a little parental advice thrown their way (which happened to my wife too), and bam, they're victims of sexism.
I don't see it. If anything, I've been really surprised how welcoming some groups have been.
Not sure why the need to feel victimized here. To be brutally honest, the biggest takeaway for me as a stay-at-home dad is how long women have been absolutely ignored and unappreciated for doing very hard and dedicated work. It is not easy to raise small kids, and women have been doing it for centuries, because it's "woman's work". Now men are doing it, they get a little parental advice thrown their way (which happened to my wife too), and bam, they're victims of sexism.
I don't see it. If anything, I've been really surprised how welcoming some groups have been.
Not really. I've spent enough time here and on pre-reset Neogaf where if I was going to be convinced of those two concepts it would have happened already.
Not what I was asking, I'm asking you to back your post up with some reasoning.
I've never seen you before, much like many others here, it's on you when you drop into a new thread to back up your claims.
So please reason why.
There's definitely a stigma if you're a dude who has a stay at home gig (or no gig). Whether you have an etsy, or do freelance work, invest in stocks or however you make your scratch (or don't), you're kinda looked down upon in the dating scene for not being super ambitious and having prowess in a career, etc. Whereas for women it's encouraged, but not expected as much, which leads to its own set of challenges obviously. There tends to be more stigma coming from a common mentality informed by patriarchal standards, whereas for stay at home men it seems to be that and also sometimes the opposite ("if you're a man and aren't as succesful as me due to your inherent privilege, you're probably trash," etc). I think a lot of it would be squashed and conversations would be more productive if there was more acceptance of the spectrum of class and cultural backgrounds, personality types and relationship roles across sexes and genders instead of blaming just men in power or women in power. Political power tends to be patriarchal and effects laws and causes more harm in a general sense, but socially, things always vary based on culture and environment.
Lol, I love how this post sounds a bit like a carefully worded journal entry by Al Bundy venting about nagging or something.
Lol, I love how this post sounds a bit like a carefully worded journal entry by Al Bundy venting about nagging or something.
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I wouldn't say it's a "big" problem. It's a problem men have brought on themselves by being shitty parents and partners for like all of existence. Those of us who are trying to break the cycle face some resistance but it's not significant or widespread.
I'm not a father yet (hopefully next year), but a good friend of mine was recently shouted at by a woman in a communal parents room in a shopping center for the crime of being a man daring to change a nappy. Unbelievable how behind some of us still are with gender role attitudes.
Not a stay home dad but I work a straight 40 where sometimes my wife will have to work late.
I've taken my daughter to many places and never seen this mentality. I will agree changing tables are lacking in men's bathrooms but many places now have a family bathroom I can use instead.
At the park I see a good amount of dads there with their kids so it doesn't seem to be a problem in our area.
I've taken my daughter to many places and never seen this mentality. I will agree changing tables are lacking in men's bathrooms but many places now have a family bathroom I can use instead.
At the park I see a good amount of dads there with their kids so it doesn't seem to be a problem in our area.
So you haven't experienced it yourself, therefore it doesn't exist?
Oh no! You misunderstand.
It hasn't happened to me, but looking at some of the examples in this thread, it hasn't happened to a lot of other people either, therefore it doesn't exist.
This stuff happens to women too. Like, a lot. It's judgemental parental advice and not exclusive to men. Just so we're clear, I think it's pretty amusing that some guys feel victimized by it and immediately go with the sexism red alert, when my wife has experienced the same exact bullshit.
So yeah, it doesn't exist. Stop trying to be a marginalized victim and understand that women have had to deal with this bullshit for a long, LONG time.
When we had our little one I took 4 months of the maternity leave (we get 12 months in Canada). Ohhh boy the reactions... Most were positive, but man, some mothers couldn't be fussed to speak to me. Quick example... Her aqua tots class was fun, overall as you get to sing songs, splash around and get your little one used to water. I was the only male out of 30 parents. A few of the mothers were encouraging, but the rest would give me the gas face, would act like I don't exist, or ask/say things to do with my "home life". I didn't let it bother me at all, but I can see why people would be discouraged and upset.
So you just ignore the article and the posts from people like me saying they've experienced it? This article isn't about erasing the sexism that women have to deal with. It's putting a spotlight on the experiences of men who aren't treated like real parents.
There are few examples of sexism in the article. Some of this guy's grievances are due to homophobia (the diner incident) and his own ignorance.
Most people here mind there own business but both my wife and I get "parent-shaming" comments from strangers though they are rare ("baby should have a jacket" "who's child is this playing in the mud?").
No Men's changing table, cool I'll just call an audible and figure it out, no hair off my back and changing tables have only existed for like two decades. I have blankets handy to change them in the stroller, on the grass etc... You also can't assume that every time there's a table missing in the Men's room there's one in the Women's room. Some establishments are that behind lol.
Mum classes and groups? Ummm with something as traumatic to the mind and body as pregnancy and childbirth, if women want to keep a group to themselves without men being there let them. Most men are straight, they don't want a thirsty bastard in their group in such a weird time in their lives. I know article writer is gay but still, they are just going to be comfortable around other women then they are men no matter what their orientation is. There are dad classes and hangout groups if you look (meetup.com !). Atleast he is somewhat self-aware and knows these are self-inflicted wounds on the part of the male patriarchal society.
With that said the only "sexism" I've gotten thrown at me was older family members trying to reinforce gender roles and having a problem with me not being the breadwinner. My mother was even foolish enough to suggest that I should be the one working no matter what, even though my salary was lower LOL. At first I was a little embarrassed to be a stay-at-home dad but that wore off within months. I remember refusing to walk near old Courthouses I used to roam, and going well out of my way to get to my destination, in fear of colleagues seeing me with my son instead of a suit heading to work. Other than the older generation, everyone has been positive about me being an at-home father. It's the hardest work I've ever had to do and it's a shame that men predictably have given women shit and depicted housewives as lazy. 9 to 5 is a fuckin' cakewalk in comparison. Not even a toxic work environment will wear you down like being around your kids nearly 24/7, with the majority of the day handling it solo.
Most people here mind there own business but both my wife and I get "parent-shaming" comments from strangers though they are rare ("baby should have a jacket" "who's child is this playing in the mud?").
No Men's changing table, cool I'll just call an audible and figure it out, no hair off my back and changing tables have only existed for like two decades. I have blankets handy to change them in the stroller, on the grass etc... You also can't assume that every time there's a table missing in the Men's room there's one in the Women's room. Some establishments are that behind lol.
Mum classes and groups? Ummm with something as traumatic to the mind and body as pregnancy and childbirth, if women want to keep a group to themselves without men being there let them. Most men are straight, they don't want a thirsty bastard in their group in such a weird time in their lives. I know article writer is gay but still, they are just going to be comfortable around other women then they are men no matter what their orientation is. There are dad classes and hangout groups if you look (meetup.com !). Atleast he is somewhat self-aware and knows these are self-inflicted wounds on the part of the male patriarchal society.
With that said the only "sexism" I've gotten thrown at me was older family members trying to reinforce gender roles and having a problem with me not being the breadwinner. My mother was even foolish enough to suggest that I should be the one working no matter what, even though my salary was lower LOL. At first I was a little embarrassed to be a stay-at-home dad but that wore off within months. I remember refusing to walk near old Courthouses I used to roam, and going well out of my way to get to my destination, in fear of colleagues seeing me with my son instead of a suit heading to work. Other than the older generation, everyone has been positive about me being an at-home father. It's the hardest work I've ever had to do and it's a shame that men predictably have given women shit and depicted housewives as lazy. 9 to 5 is a fuckin' cakewalk in comparison. Not even a toxic work environment will wear you down like being around your kids nearly 24/7, with the majority of the day handling it solo.
My wife and I haven't experienced anything like this but I've heard from another new parent that his wife would get cold stares while people were generally understanding with him when their kid was crying. Anecdotal but I wonder if this is more related to homophobia in addition.
The discrimination in the article isn't sexism. It's homophobia.
The posts in this thread....are not discrimination. Some of them aren't even negative. "I'm a stay at home dad." "Oh! That's so wonderful!" "Fuck off bitch." <--- Not discrimination. If anything, it exposes how it's just expected for women to stay home, and a bit of toxic masculinity too.
... Did you miss the part where the waitress told the couple that their baby needs a woman?
I didn't. As I said just before your posts, it's homophobia.
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I guess it's much more obvious to me than others. To me it seems clear cut that they're being discriminated because they're homosexual, not because they happen to be male with a baby. I'm not saying what they experienced isn't awful or isn't discrimination, just the reasoning behind it. To clarify where I'm coming from, the so-called discrimination stay-at-home dads go through is laughable next to the discrimination that homosexuals, PoC, and Muslims go through.
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It's not. Men are treated differently. They're treated as if they don't know what they're doing. They're looked at with suspicion and sometimes scorn. I've been made to feel like I don't belong because I was a man alone with a child. I've lived it and you don't get to erase that just because it hasn't happened to you.
Yeah I have definitely experienced some real judgmental looks and comments being a stay at home dad. I had taken over as the primary career for my partner while she went back to school to finish her degree. during this time our relationship ended and we separated with the kids staying living with me once she moved out. I became a single father raising 3 kids. For a long time people would give me "good for you" comments, which weren't so bad. I also got some ï'd love to do that"comments from men who had absolutely no idea of the amount of tireless work it takes to be the sole career of 3 growing children.
but then when I met my current partner suddenly alot of the comments suddenly turned to ""where is their mother?"and "kids should be with their mother"comments. mostly by her close friends and family, and of course some people even told her that I was a no hoper because I didn't have full time work. some of her friends tried to tell her that she should convince me to send my kids to live with their mother. alot of people tried to talk her out of being with me. eventually after the birth of our first child together I took up full time work and suddenly gained the approval of so many of the same people who had so long put me down and warned her to leave me. so many "congratulations on the new job"comments, regardless of the fact that ironically, I make less money now than I did when I was at home working part time and receiving a parenting pension, and my partner has the added strain of being the primary career for all the kids, while also attempting to complete a training course for her own future. our lives have become significantly harder since I started working full time but none of that matters to most people because hey, at least im working a job as a man should do.
but then when I met my current partner suddenly alot of the comments suddenly turned to ""where is their mother?"and "kids should be with their mother"comments. mostly by her close friends and family, and of course some people even told her that I was a no hoper because I didn't have full time work. some of her friends tried to tell her that she should convince me to send my kids to live with their mother. alot of people tried to talk her out of being with me. eventually after the birth of our first child together I took up full time work and suddenly gained the approval of so many of the same people who had so long put me down and warned her to leave me. so many "congratulations on the new job"comments, regardless of the fact that ironically, I make less money now than I did when I was at home working part time and receiving a parenting pension, and my partner has the added strain of being the primary career for all the kids, while also attempting to complete a training course for her own future. our lives have become significantly harder since I started working full time but none of that matters to most people because hey, at least im working a job as a man should do.
Agreed. I was the stay at home parent for both my kids, never noticed any negative interactions. Seems like the author was looking out for it.
Your anecdotal evidence doesn't disprove anything. You're 1, 2 if you count the poster you quoted, in a sea of single fathers. Obviously some are going to have different experiences. Drawing conclusions like you did is no different than when women who know an accused harasser come out and say "Well he never harassed me, must be a good guy."
What?
No one said people giving judgemental parenting advice was exclusive to men. Some of the examples could also obviously happen to women, but several of the examples obviously also couldn't. Unless, of course, you think there is some sort of equivalent to, "Two men cannot look after a baby. Next time bring a woman."
Do you think women often get asked if they are babysitting while looking after their own children like men in this thread have? Do you think women get questioned like they are potential predators at parks while spending time with their own children in the same way men can? Is it really so hard to believe that people can be much quicker to negatively judge a man, say, trying to calm a crying baby than if it was a woman?
Men are not seen as equivalent caregivers to children by society as a whole.
There is nothing amusing about patriarchal society shaming men for caring for children because they are stepping outside the established norms.
Ugh.
It isn't a competition. Acknowledging that patriarchal thinking negatively affects men doesn't diminish the historical effect it has had on women. Sexism against men doesn't need to be as bad as sexism against women for it still to be a problem worth discussing. We also similarly don't dismiss racism based on race because, well, maybe some races have it worse than others.
You are extremely naive if you think traditional patriarchal thinking doesn't massively affect men in countless detrimental ways.
Count me as 3. Article writer is a whiny dude. I have more kids and more at-home experience under my belt and nearly died from eye-rolling reading that.
I don't think it is difficult to show that there are very different attitudes towards men and women when it comes to childcare. Do people in this thread seriously think that a man and a woman with equivalent backgrounds have the same odds of being hired if they both applied to a daycare center?
My current girlfriend works at a daycare. We have a friend who works in a different daycare in our area. We are friends with a woman who is an administrator for five different daycares a few counties away from where we live. None of them employ men in caregiver roles.
My current girlfriend works at a daycare. We have a friend who works in a different daycare in our area. We are friends with a woman who is an administrator for five different daycares a few counties away from where we live. None of them employ men in caregiver roles.
So you've been fortunate enough not to experience it. Why is it so hard to believe that others have? No one is attacking anyone here so why is it so hard to offer support for people who have been the victims of society's adherence to traditional gender roles?
Because more than half of it comes off as whiny and I've also experienced some things in the write up without getting my feelings hurt. He gets off on the wrong foot by invoking "Everyday Sexism" in the title, then I read it and he can't even back it up. Do the work, take care of your kids, who cares what people think? I've peeked at these "mom and baby" tip books too and it never crossed my mind to be outraged that "dads" weren't being addressed or whatever other grievances are being brought up. Use the tips in the book anyway! The only objective violation in that whole write up was a stranger asking him to hand over his crying kid. My kids are mixed, I've been asked before if they are mine... so what? He's making a lot of unnecessary assumptions in his write up to boot.
The next generation of people will be more open about men diverting from norms that we men are the one's responsible for putting in place to begin with.
This seems like an incredibly poor way to go about addressing issues with the world and society.
"So what?" If a woman wrote an article about being victimized by people pushing their ideals of traditional gender roles and you called her concerns whiny you'd be banned just as the poster above was for downplaying sexism. But because they are men, their concerns are whiny. Or another poster calls it homophobia and not sexism. Or they try to say it's not as bad as women have it. Anything to tell these men that they're wrong for feeling mistreated. People are so invested in their roles that they can't risk a threat to them by admitting that there is something wrong on a societal scale. Such fragility to not even accept that the views and experiences of others are different but still valid. No, they have to be wrong so you can be right. They have to be whiny so you can be strong. So strong that when it happens to you it doesn't bother you. So strong that you didn't get your feelings hurt. That doesn't mean that it's okay for people to do that.
Strict adherence to traditional gender roles ends up with a lot of victims. Looks like toxic masculinity does too.
Strict adherence to traditional gender roles ends up with a lot of victims. Looks like toxic masculinity does too.
The advice you're giving is to "man up" and brush off sexist acts as a part of life for this generation?
Well then... that toxic masculinity amirite.
That feeling when you use the RICHARD DAWKINS defense as your own.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Watson
(Click the elevator incident for his response)
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That poster doesn't understand that sexism against men and homophobia can both be factors because of the patriarchy. I mean that's why this new generation is trying to break the idea of traditional gender roles.
I swear some of those posts are fucking textbook MaleFeministTM.
