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"The everyday sexism I face as a stay-at-home dad" - Matthew Jenkin, father, explains
- Thread starter galv
- Start date
I've been a stay-at-home dad to my daughter for 15 years (the Internet and YouTube raise her now). I've encountered a fair share of sexist attitudes. It's often assumed I'm divorced and it's my "day with the kid." 99% of public events for babies/toddlers are labeled "Mommy & Me"; I used to bring her to "Mommy Movies" and I was the only man I ever saw there. Women do not seem to mind other women overhearing conversations and jumping in with parenting advice but do not like men doing so. Sometimes I got the stink-eye at parks. Never was told I was doing anything wrong and some women did go out of their way to be welcoming. My father had it worse when he was raising my younger sister and brother. I belonged to a stay-at-home dads group and there were around a dozen of us.
Having spent this entire year together with my daughter on my parental leave I can say that Sweden is a far more progressive place than the places I've read about here. Not only are events not named "Mom & Baby Stuff" but rather "Parent & baby" and while there is a clear dominance of women at these type of events there are a lot of fathers there too. I've never run into sexism where I'm faulted for being a father, quite the opposite, in fact, several people have come up to me in order to praise me for my parenting. While you'd likely not see many people come up and praise mothers for the same feats I've at least avoided being scolded.
This (childcare and interacting with children) is one of the very few scenarios where women really have it made over men.
That sucks and I definitely seen similar stuff happen to people I know that are stay at home dad's. That waitress sounda awful , I hope they reported her to the manager.
It's part of a pattern assuming that men don't know how to care for a baby or that they don't know what's wrong when it cries.
It's basically the flipped version of mansplaining. It's pretty damn condescending.
I'm sure there are people like that. But there are also plenty of people who are clueless first time parents, both male and female. There are also plenty of people who think they know it all and give their advice to all people, male or female. I mean, the waitress remark was clearly sexist but the stuff like not standing too close to the kerb and the other advice may or may not be and it sounds like he's just assuming the worst in every encounter.
And just because it's condescending we should automatically assume it's coming from a sexist place? There are plenty of condescending people out there. Why do we automatically assume the worst in people?
Well we weren't there so we only have their word for how it happened. If you're willing to believe that the anecdote happened at all, why would you draw the line at believing them with regards to how it was said to them? Why automatically assume this couple didn't understand how they were being treated?
Because most of the stuff that were cited sounded fairly innocuous?
If his baby was crying and no one offered to help, would he then attribute the inaction to sexism too?
But that's the point: it's still uncommon.
I'm not offended on behalf of all men when women are surprised I am willing to and can take care of my kids just fine. I know it's just still not that common.
Being considered a "super dad" myself I've been alone in public with my girl many times and not once had a woman offer her advice on how to handle a situation.
Which, btw is something women do with other women all the damn time, because everyone thinks they know parenting better.
Maybe this guy just doesn't look very experienced. Not because he's a guy, just because he isn't.
You realise this only happens because of misogyny and patriarchy and the assumption that women are inherently "motherly" (and god forbid they not be perfect mothers because otherwise they'll never hear the end of it)? Almost every instance of sexism against men is rooted in patriarchy & misogyny.
Posting in a dad thread because I'm a dad.
Not much to contribute. Daughter is only 4 months old. Mum stays at home since she is breast-feeding, but will go back to work part time in a few months. Current plan is that she will work 3 days, I will work 4, and there will be 2 days in child care.
Not much to contribute. Daughter is only 4 months old. Mum stays at home since she is breast-feeding, but will go back to work part time in a few months. Current plan is that she will work 3 days, I will work 4, and there will be 2 days in child care.
I was a stay at home dad.
Me and my brother often go on walks with my now 3 year old son.
Never experienced anything like that. Not even close. Some mom's just have randomly started talking to me about some random kids stuff and have always been very nice.
Face it, people in London are just rude.
Me and my brother often go on walks with my now 3 year old son.
Never experienced anything like that. Not even close. Some mom's just have randomly started talking to me about some random kids stuff and have always been very nice.
Face it, people in London are just rude.
All cultural norms of western society are rooted in patriarchy.
These are the critical points that people conveniently seem to be glossing over. These are comments that women get too. I'd even go so far as to say my wife had it worse when she was at home. At least I didn't get "educated " on how to breastfeed my baby, like my wife did more than once.
I wasn't a stay at home dad, but I still got a little of this on weekends and whenever I would take my kids out on my own.
The worst experiences were when women would act all offended whenever I would take my kids into a public parents' room to change their nappies.
Most women were fine with my presence, but some reactions would vary from open disgust at my being there to the sudden appearance of security guards.
The casual sexism I could brush off, the implied accusations of being a paedophile I could not.
The worst experiences were when women would act all offended whenever I would take my kids into a public parents' room to change their nappies.
Most women were fine with my presence, but some reactions would vary from open disgust at my being there to the sudden appearance of security guards.
The casual sexism I could brush off, the implied accusations of being a paedophile I could not.
"Is daddy babysitting today?" is pretty cut and dry. It's not a matter of "assuming the worst" as you have ironically assumed.
In fact, I acknowledge that it comes from a place of kindness, but so does mansplaining. Condescending is condescending though.
I think these comments are more damaging to men, especially a gay couple who probably have a lot of people questioning whether they should be allowed to adopt kids in the first place.
Apart from the restaurant thing my wife and I have frequently been offered unsolicited advice from strangers when it comes to our kids and my wife has repeatedly stated that other women are consistently more judgemental of her than any other group, so I don't think this chap is experiencing sexism, rather having to put up with the usual level of shite parents experience from strangers.
That restaurant thing was blatant homophobia tho.
That restaurant thing was blatant homophobia tho.
No, because then they would assume he knows how to take care of his child. There are certainly incompetent parents--mom and dad alike--but many parents do research on how to raise and care for their children. So maybe wait and see if they ask for help instead of just assuming he's an idiot just cause he's a dude watching his kid?
I'm not sure you are quite aware of how this world actually works and how people think and function.
Nurturing men are an extremely marginalized group. It's socially acceptable to discriminate against them and it's sickening.
"Man working with young children? Better keep a close eye on him..."
"Father appropriately disciplining tantruming baby? Definitely abusive."
"Adult man talking with kids at the park? Pedo alert, call the cops."
"Stay-at-home dad? Total unskilled deadbeat."
Etc. Etc. Etc.
People need to start asking themselves: "If this was my husband/father/son/brother, would I want someone to give them a hard time over this?" The answer, almost always, would be "no."
"Man working with young children? Better keep a close eye on him..."
"Father appropriately disciplining tantruming baby? Definitely abusive."
"Adult man talking with kids at the park? Pedo alert, call the cops."
"Stay-at-home dad? Total unskilled deadbeat."
Etc. Etc. Etc.
People need to start asking themselves: "If this was my husband/father/son/brother, would I want someone to give them a hard time over this?" The answer, almost always, would be "no."
If you see an upset child out in public, and the parent is clearly trying their best to take care of the situation, please kindly fuck off and don't interfere. It is stressful as hell to take care of a crying baby in public and I could not give less of a fuck about what worked for you in the 80s with your two boys, Carol.
We recently flew over the Pacific with a baby and there was some lady who would not leave us alone during our layover at LAX. She was constantly butting in and talking about us to random other people. Like, lady, the baby is crying because we've been traveling for 16 hours and he's tired. It's not because we're using the wrong kind of pacifier. Go away.
We recently flew over the Pacific with a baby and there was some lady who would not leave us alone during our layover at LAX. She was constantly butting in and talking about us to random other people. Like, lady, the baby is crying because we've been traveling for 16 hours and he's tired. It's not because we're using the wrong kind of pacifier. Go away.
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I always got these looks when I was out alone with my son when he was a baby. Judgemental. From both men and women, but definitely mostly women. When my wife was with me there were no looks.
A couple of times some middle aged women have even started telling me what I'm probably doing wrong when it took a bit longer to get him to calm down.
Like, keep it to yourself.
A couple of times some middle aged women have even started telling me what I'm probably doing wrong when it took a bit longer to get him to calm down.
Like, keep it to yourself.
I stayed at home with both my kids from infant - preschool aged and have nothing but positive things to day about the time spent and the reactions in public. I would get the "Oh it is so nice to see a father with his kids" comments all the time and took it as the compliment it was. This isn't to say there weren't times I felt awkward during things like "Mom and babe" swim classes, but that is more of a me thing than anything else.
I struggle to think of anything said to me or attitudes directed at me that were actually negative. I mean sure, I'd get unneeded advice on things all the time, but it would be a real stretch to call it sexist. It wasn't hard to see the kindness shown to me by strangers and the spirit in which the advice, however unnecessary, was offered.
I struggle to think of anything said to me or attitudes directed at me that were actually negative. I mean sure, I'd get unneeded advice on things all the time, but it would be a real stretch to call it sexist. It wasn't hard to see the kindness shown to me by strangers and the spirit in which the advice, however unnecessary, was offered.
I love how quickly some people are willing to dismiss the sole money maker of the family time working as an excuse. What a joke.
Subbing this thread for sharing the general condescension that men get with their babies or with other people's babies (nieces, nephews, etc). I have a baby on the way imminently, and it's not just from strangers, but from basically everybody in your family. It's frustrating as a man because you get so much unwarranted, unasked for advice or instruction about how you're "doing something wrong" that it makes you hesitant to want to do anything at all... which further pushes the stigma that "only women know how to be around their babies" or something. I've had to tell my wife whenever I hold one of my nieces, nephews, etc., don't remark about it... Don't say "OH BOY GOOD LUCK ALBATROSS..." or something, don't fret and look at me like I'm crazy or like "wow this is something so different!" because it only undercuts how confident a person is to do what should be normal. It's like if your wife gets in the driver's seat of the car and you're like "OH WOW look at you driving the car! Be careful ... wow this is so different a WOMAN driving a CAR, be careful honey check your mirrors!" Hundreds of millions of women drive cars every day. Hundreds of millions of men hold babies every day. Stop pretending like these incredibly normal, natural things, regular things are something that we need to comment about every time. Even if it's new for you, act like it's normal. My wife has gotten a lot better about it because I've told her the reason I Don't want to hold my niece (her sister's infant) is because any time I hold a baby she makes this big song and dance promotion about it, bringing attention to me and making me nervous... I don't need that, nobody does. She's mostly stopped doing it thankfully.
We had a baby class yesterday which was really great, and one thing the instructor said was to the men in the class, feel confident doing whatever you do with the baby.. Baby doens't expect you to be the baby's mother, it expects you and wants you to do things differently. I really liked the class, because she was like "Feel free to carry the baby like a football if that's comfortable for you, baby will love it..." and went through a lot of help on different techniques, and how holding baby in different ways than the traditional cradle can help with bowel movements, comfort, and make you feel like you've got your own way of holding the baby. Baby doesn't know if you're good or bad at holding her, she's just like "Oh... this is new, this is cool, I'm cool with this, maybe I'll poop" but it's other people who pretend like something is wrong.
I'm also buying some baby gear this week, like a carrier, and it's just another reinforcement about how nobody wants men to carry babies. Every photo on every product is of a woman carrying the child, every product talks about how its so easy for moms to slip on and off, etc. I get this is how product design and marketing is, the majority of these are bought by women, but as a man shopping for this stuff for myself, the ones that show a dad like me... a bigger guy, bearded, carrying his baby in a carrier, I'm immediately drawn to those.
SOrry random ranting
We had a baby class yesterday which was really great, and one thing the instructor said was to the men in the class, feel confident doing whatever you do with the baby.. Baby doens't expect you to be the baby's mother, it expects you and wants you to do things differently. I really liked the class, because she was like "Feel free to carry the baby like a football if that's comfortable for you, baby will love it..." and went through a lot of help on different techniques, and how holding baby in different ways than the traditional cradle can help with bowel movements, comfort, and make you feel like you've got your own way of holding the baby. Baby doesn't know if you're good or bad at holding her, she's just like "Oh... this is new, this is cool, I'm cool with this, maybe I'll poop" but it's other people who pretend like something is wrong.
I'm also buying some baby gear this week, like a carrier, and it's just another reinforcement about how nobody wants men to carry babies. Every photo on every product is of a woman carrying the child, every product talks about how its so easy for moms to slip on and off, etc. I get this is how product design and marketing is, the majority of these are bought by women, but as a man shopping for this stuff for myself, the ones that show a dad like me... a bigger guy, bearded, carrying his baby in a carrier, I'm immediately drawn to those.
SOrry random ranting
right? i think some here are living in their own little world. How often do we have stories here or hear of them elsewhere "i lost my job because i couldnt get someone to cover my shift" "i dont get paid holidays" (if you dont get paid holidays you dont get vacation either) "people are frowned upon for using their vacation" "X amount of americans live paycheck to paycheck" (if you're living paycheck to paycheck, and your hourly can you afford to take a few hours off to go to a school function? probably not.) almost all of these are stories i've seen on this forum or the old one.
Uhhh no. The article writer is the one that comes off as a potential MRA member. If you are a man invoking "sexism", that's quite the high hurdle (arguably impossible) and the rest of the article falls flat. I don't blame him for all of it, for example anyone with a wife knows that parent-shaming goes both ways. He's with a man, so he's not privy to "his wife being parent-shamed" also, he assumed it was because he was a man. The writer is objectively sensitive. The crying after class bit because people kept trolling him with advice?? Every parent I know would have given a sufficient, simple "fuck off" under those circumstances.
Anyway if you want to know how toxic of a male I am, I nearly shed a tear walking past my son's school today. My baby boy is growing up fast ;-(
I'm still bitter at only getting 2 weeks of paternity leave before NYC expanded it.
This is really the only thing that truly bothers me. My wife doesn't get why I'm often very uncomfortable taking the kiddo to the park by myself. Just really bothers me when I get those looks. I mean I'm used to it as a black man but combined with that "omg why are you around kids" shit bothers the hell out of me.
This is really the only thing that truly bothers me. My wife doesn't get why I'm often very uncomfortable taking the kiddo to the park by myself. Just really bothers me when I get those looks. I mean I'm used to it as a black man but combined with that "omg why are you around kids" shit bothers the hell out of me.
I get this all the time, it drives me up the wall. I got told I was 'babysitting' when arranging and hosting my daughter's birthday party last year, both at work before and after, (I'm in an office three days a week) and at home by the mothers of my daughter's friends.
I've had someone accuse me of being suspicious when playing hide-and-seek in a playground with her, despite having a pushchair loaded with all the usual parent paraphenalia 12 feet away, hands full of even more toddler stuff and us being there almost every day in good weather.
When I've gone to change a nappy during a party or swimming at the leisure centre, there isn't a changing table in the mens, only the disabled loo that is kept locked. I've then, on the slim chance that some bored teenager is at the desk, had to ask permission to use it, or, if they aren't, I've just done it quickly on the grass outside rather than use the disgusting men's loos that seem to get cleaned once a day at most.
I also had far more trouble arranging flexible working with my office than my female colleagues with the same length of service in the same profession in exactly the same situation (although this doesn't mean that there aren't wider issues that women have at work, I appreciate it's a fairly minor complaint in comparison). I think my office (which is an old company where people stick around for decades and change is measured in aeons) was just dead set that after having kids, men still have to work 9-5 5 days a week in the office, whereas women can go part-time (with the additional penalty of having been seen as 'at risk' of doing so since they joined the company). It's terrible for everyone considering that so many families require two salaries and the flexibility to arrange childcare however they can these days, heaven forbid an adult should be able to split their life between maintaining a job and being a parent without being seen as a liability.
The sooner things change in terms of how parenting is seen as something entirely normal and an essential part of raising kids for dads, the better for everyone.
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You are part of the problem with your man can't have feelings nonsense.
This is what we do, and it works great- you both get the benefit of spending time parenting and discovering stuff with your kid, and also keeping something (your professional life) for yourself. We found it just made us stronger and kept life interesting, as just when you fancy a change of scenery every few days (and there will be days when you are dying for an adult conversation) there's a change of pace. A couple of days in childcare is great for social stuff and learning stuff from the childminders, as professional childminders/playworkers our little one is always coming home singing new songs or with new craft activities, it's a great hub for ideas for activities.
I've been lucky, the only weird incident I had was when I was at a playground with my daughter and a mother asked why I was there, I think because my daughter was off playing tag with other kids. Honestly really only struck me as odd afterward.
My real complaint is the number of men's rooms that don't have diaper changing stations. Very annoying if I'm out with my kids and I have to figure out how to change my son.
My real complaint is the number of men's rooms that don't have diaper changing stations. Very annoying if I'm out with my kids and I have to figure out how to change my son.
Dads and dads-to-be, relax. I know you want to vent your frustrations, but don' let paranoia, low self-confidence, and over-sensitivity hinder your experience as a parent, embitter you, or prevent you from actually enjoying your time with your kids.
And of unsolicited parenting advice--such as this, for instance--sends you into a blind rage, well, better thicken your skin. It's coming regardless of your role. Some of it's condescending, most of it is terrible, and a fraction of a fraction of it will be mildly decent. Roll with it and move on. Or come here to vent like a madman. Either option is fine, I guess.
And of unsolicited parenting advice--such as this, for instance--sends you into a blind rage, well, better thicken your skin. It's coming regardless of your role. Some of it's condescending, most of it is terrible, and a fraction of a fraction of it will be mildly decent. Roll with it and move on. Or come here to vent like a madman. Either option is fine, I guess.
Nope sorry, your post doesn't apply to me. Men can have feelings dude. Men tripping over themselves to be victims of sexism get eye rolls.
Thank you.
lmao. Yup! He will find out the hard way.
Agreed. The frailty here and the need to be a victim of sexism is deplorable.
I walk with my daughter all the time.
I get unsolicited advice, I smile and nod.
This shit doesn't even enter my mind. I don't care what strangers think. I was speaking to coworkers about my baby teething, and some woman came out of nowhere to give like commonly googleable advise about freezing teething rings. I smiled, nodded, and moved on with my life. I am boggled that this is rage inducing to some of you.
To someone who is an actual victim of this country due to my skin color, like. . .stop trying to be victims, it's pathetic. There is no need to make yourself one. It's not something you truly wish to be, trust.
What that waitress said was fucking horrible. :( Two dads can absolutely make for very loving and capable parents.
Is anybody being a victim and being frail... or are people just complaining and venting, and wanting to make the world a better place?
Your post comes off very strongly as, "Shut up, accept your place in society, and do it with a smile." I disagree with this idea. I think most of the parents here are identifying a problem, and shining a light on that problems helps identify it and helps fix it. Even if it doesn't lead to change, parents talking to each other, venting, and supporting each other can also be good, cathartic, and helpful. New parents often feel like "They're the only ones" or that they're alone in something, so when people get into a group and share similar stories, it can help those people become better parents even if all it does is let something off their chest that's bothering them.
I was in a newborn care class yesterday, and there was a segment on post partem depression, which is thankfully something that society has just started to take seriously in the last couple decades (Although people from an older generation still disregard it and pretend like it's just a weakness in some broken mothers, or that mothers feeling anxiety and depression need to "stop complaining" or "stop being weak"). Something I was glad to see was on the next slide the proctor of the class also brought up depression in fathers, something you never see discussed anywhere and would be intensely taboo to bring up in American society... precisely because of positions like yours. The proctor tied it all back, too, it's not just fathers "being weak" or "wanting to be victims"... but that unaddressed depression in fathers can be a leading contributor to shaken baby and sudden infant death syndrome... Because fathers are generally told by society, either implicitly or explicitly, to man up and stop complaining, and then that depression, anxiety, or mental distress can manifest itself in a deadly way.
I don't think there's anything to gain by burying things like this, or manning up, toughen up, etc., it only makes society worse. Where as, shining a light on them only makes society better. Pointing out problems in one aspect of society doesn't toss dirt on other problems in society, it doesn't make problems contributing to your victimhood any less important or less relevant.
Yeah, I'd also add that in addition to being annoying and condescending about "Daddy babysitting," is that this also reinforces the sexist/harmful idea that only mother should be parenting, or that "a mothers place is parenting," while it's unusual for the dad to be parenting. My wife complained about this with one of her friends on Facebook who often posts something like, "[Dad] is home babysitting the girls today!" and my wife is like, fuck that, he's parenting not babysitting, and if you need to "book your husband to babysit the kids" so you can go out and do stuff then that's not a balanced family relationship. This is the kind of attitude that reinforces gender pay gap and other things that hold women back from an equitable place in society.
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